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General Motors discussions
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GM in a nutshell:
- Tries to gain image by making top-end eye candy and showcars. Superb cars. Only 10 models, though.
60% of their focus - 5% of their sales.
- The midrange lineup is, well, it's intended for Fleet use. Drive one until you can afford a top-end car.(Even most of Cadillac isn't "top end" - I'm talking about Corvettes and Hummer and the like.
30% of their focus - 70% of their sales.
- The entry-level cars are something you put up with while you drool over a top-end model and settle for a Buick. At 50.
10% of their focus - 25% of their sales.
(note these figures - pretty heavily skewed towards the top and not where it's needed. Image won't get normal people in the doors alone)
The problem is - other than the "hot" models which they neve make enough of, the rest of the cars are utter rubbish for the money. 8-10 good cars and 50-60 bad ones - is it any wonder why they are failing?
Converesly, Honda makes every car to the same standards - they realize that their long-term success is to make every car well:
- Top end - a few models - not really special, but fine cars nonetheless. Just better versions of the midrange stuff. Optional to their business model - there if you want it. Not sold in large numbers.
10% of their focus - 5% of their sales.
- The midrange is not intended for fleets, but individuals. Their bread and butter. Built as well as thy can(and as well as GM's top-end cars). A bit overkill? Certainly. But it worked for Mercedes and Volvo for decades, so it's not rubbish. It will lower profits, of course. Like Honda cares - they think long-term.
50% of their focus - 60% of their sales.
- The low-end. The plan here is to make a very decent car, even if you sell them for basically your cost. MAke decent cars that are stand-alone decent cars. No need to feel like you have to trade-up. Honda knows that human nature alone and 10 years will get you in the door again when you are older and looking for a larger car. Honda, Volvo, and Totoya have really high levels of loyalty. Not every car they buy is a Honda, but most of them will be during a lifetime if the first impression was fantastic.
40% of their focus - 35% of their sales.
These figures(which are my rough estimates) show a heavy emphasis on the first-time buyer.
Their focus is on the most average car. ie - there's no need to "trade up" Toyota's new RAV-4, for instance, is a perfect example - want a smaller, virtually identical 4-Runner because you well, WANT a smaller SUV? There you go. GM? Big is good - the smaller version - sorry, can't get leather or sunroof or traction control and ABS is optional and...
GHEEZ - ALL I WANTED WAS THE SAME SUV BUT SMALLER THAN A BUS is what the average person ends up thinking. So they drive over to Toyota and see the new Rav-4. And can't write the check fast enough. 30K with all the goodies and the bigger engine. Traction control, side airbags, all the same off-road and interior features and modes as a 4-Runner - and a third row, yet it's the size of a Lexus RX?
My best friend has a 4-Runner and did a comparison - it's the same SUV, just a smaller version. Seems like a genius move, yet it's actualyl about the simplest of all. Just give them a half-dozen carton of eggs as an option if they don't want the whole dozen.
Honda understands this better than anyone, though, other than maybe Saab did. Same or nearly the same cars - just different sizes. Not a lemon in the whole lineup. Honda's upcoming Fit? 2/3 sized Civic. Virtually the same, otherwise. And they plan to sell 50,000+ a year quite easily. Next year they will offer a hybrid, too - 15-16K for a 50mpg+ 4 door, 5-passenger Insight, essentially. Watch these blow a large hole in the side of Toyota's Prius.
GM - they should either sell to fleets only and not to the public, or go for a niche market if they want to survive with their current approach and leadership.(because we all know a massive, true restructuring won't happen)
Oh well..
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/02/27/gm-sales-incentives-alive-and-well/
So much for a turnaround...
Ford is slowing down on this.. Chrysler passed it for 2nd place in encentives last month..
Igor
Do you have any data on this?
You get it.
You have said that you have relatives working for GM. It is understandable that employees feel obligated to support the company they work for by buying its product. Some even feel compelled to own stock, sometimes too much as in Enron. Nonetheless, wonder how many US GM employees have friends and relatives that own "foreign" brands such as Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, BMW, Honda, etc and have driven current versions of these makes. How many secretly desire to have these but fear reprisal from management and co-workers? Would they ever tell? Would a GM employee honestly pick a Lucerne over an Acura or Lexus entry level? Would they pick Lucerne because of styling? Would they pick a Cobalt over a Civic?
For me as a Ford fan.. I like their idea.." we will stabilize, but we rthink we are stiill too big.. let's slide the market share a little more, so we know we can cover it with good models"
and second " let's finally use all our platforms to their full potential .. developing 10 midsize models, 4-6 b segments (3 of them in US) etc..."...
They are all different, but yet under the metal it is similar in construction... the 10 midsize models (Mazda6, Fusion trio, Edge/MKX etc) cost them $100 mil to develop TOGETHER.. that is about how much it would have cost to develop each separetely.
Igor
No had data.. but it is inevitable with 2 cars that are so similar.. especially in the low volume world of sports coupes..
Igor
Clearly the market was uncompetetive.
I guess that Packard took over Studebaker and then the Packard line faded out, leaving only Studebakers, which did not do well either. Hardly competition by the early 60's.
Lack of competittion has never been an issue, lack of competetiveness on the other hand is a different story. Evne in the mid seventies American cars were world class.
A glorified Nova called the Seville won a head to head comparison against the big Benz in '76. And Ford had the nerve to state a rebodied Falcon called Granada handled like a Jaguar and rode like a Rolls.
Could you even imagine that now?
I think Cadillac actually did a good job with the first Seville. Even though it was Nova-based, it still had significant revisions done to it. It also outweighed the Nova by something like 800 pounds (4200 compared to around 3400), so it was much more than just a quickie skin-job, like what Ford did to make the Lincoln Versailles.
I've driven a few 70's Granadas...did Jaguars REALLY handle that bad?! Most 50's cars handle better than a Granada!
I am not a GM employee nor are any family, friends, or acquaintances remotely associated with the auto industry and I would pick a Lucerne over an Acura or entry-level Lexus and a Cobalt over a Civic in a New York second!
Now with a Civic versus a Cobalt, that's a hard call. I like the Cobalt and what it represents, a major step forward for GM. But the Civic feels a bit roomier inside to me, and gets better fuel economy, so in this case I'd probably go with the Civic.
Oh, and I'm not a GM employee either...heck, I actually prefer Chryslers!
I'm glad I don't own or want to buy a GM product.
I'm glad I don't live anywhere near Detroit, Ohio, Kentucky, Missouri, Indiana or anywhere else GM has a plant or is looking to build a car, truck or van plant.
This one is going to just slowly unravel. The union is going to make sure they make GM's downfall go as slowly and painfully as possible. Sort of like this movie I saw on satellite last night where this one Indian tribe (circa 1850 or so)captures another group of Indians from another tribe. They then made them walk through a line of Indians that were swatting them with clubs and sticks. They were all bleeding pretty good after that little affair.
Then, they took Black Robe (the Catholic priest that was trying to preach the Catholic religion to the Indians..any Indians basically that would listen to him)and cut off one of his fingers with a very sharp clamshell. Ouch. The Chief that cut it off showed it to the cheering crowd of his tribe of Indians that were watching with glee.
That is an analogy that is closer to the truth than you think here. GM is bleeding red ink so you're gonna threaten to strike them? Knock, knock. Anyone home? Learning was never your strong point in school was it? Too much Foghat, Guess Who and Alice Cooper ringing in those ears to pay attention. Well, I agree, it is really hard to top Foghat for a straight-ahead, boogie-blues rock band. KISS can't hold a candle to them and never could. Just the truth.
I can see it coming, yet the union members of Delphi and GM are going to bleed them for all they're worth before GM can officially file for bankruptcy and emerge a stronger, more viable company to fight the imports.
One of the reasons I left Ford was their lack of concentration on building good, solid, good-looking small cars. The Focus goes without saying as one of the biggest flops in Ford history. Steep discounts and a very kind press kept it selling way more than it ever should have. GM is only now offering something viable to fight the imports: the Chevrolet Aveo. And it's an import, really made by South Korea's Daewoo Motors! Now, I know, it's part of GM Daewoo Auto and Technology Co. That was a really smart move by GM. Focus on the Asian auto boom because you've really lost the battle here in America. Pacify the masses with large pick-em-up trucks and SUV's while you strive to save your company by focusing wholly on the Chinese market. Smart thinking. Doesn't say a lot for the intellect of the American buyer though. I mean, the ones that would still want to buy GM products over here. In America.
GM isn't even worth mentioning as they have provided junk like the Cadavalier and Sunfire for us. Wow. Gotta have me one of those. No wonder I fled happily for Kia.
Kia is producing and continues to produce a quality lineup of rigs with an unbeatable Long-Haul Warranty. What is GM producing to compete. The Cobalt? Right. For $18,000 you can have a Cobalt that may or not make it to 65,000 miles. By then your warranty will have run out.
My 2001 Kia Sportage is now at 109,075 miles. I have yet to blow out a single light bulb in the thing. It runs like a champ, the factory speakers rock my Sportage's cabin with vervor and I only recently changed out my Sportage 4x4's tires from the Hankook's that were placed as OEM to Toyo A/T Wilderness tires. The Toyo's are gonna be great tires but my point is this: my Sportage's OEM tires never needed any puncture fixes or squat. The thing to read with concentration here is this: my Sportage's OEM Hankook's lasted me 102,000 miles, people! Yes, they were rotated, I kept up on all of my Sportage's maintenance regularly and it has rewarded me with a great driving experience. Does that penetrate the grey matter of anyone out there? Oh, yeah, I know, Kia's are just junk. Look at us in our Cadavalier's and large SUV's and pick-em-up trucks. We're the bright ones in America. Uh-huh. For the tires to last that long the whole rig has to be balanced properly. It has to be sitting square. It has to last. The Sportage is the same design that the Korean military uses for their Jeep's. Gotta be good to mash through all of that muck on the dimilitarized zone, doesn't it. Yes, it does. Say it after me: yes, it does. The Sportage is a great rig and performs very, very, very admirally.
For a moment, think about this. Do ya think, just for a moment, that you just might me making a little bit too much money for an automaker that is basically doomed to go bankrupt? Hello? Earth to GM and Delphi workers? Earth to Art Bell listeners and all GM employees and all Delphi employees: you are losing money hand over fist! Perhaps you should take a pay cut like the airline employees did! Call on all of the Art Bell audience to help you to understand somehow.
Striking GM and Delphi right now? Right. Keep digging that NASCAR, people. Yikes. Watch out for that 2x4. :sick:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
The first generation Seville (not the Eldorado Seville) was a very nice downsized Cadillac. Compared with a Mercedes of the time I suspect that it falls short in terms of engineering. However, my impression of Mercedes is that they were very expensive then. In the late 60's the Mercedes 600 was well thought of by any of the magazines that did a test. Mercedes was designing their bodies to be safety cages in the 60's and had very well engineered cars by the 70's.
And can someone tell me which one of these cars is the Benz?
Oh, and what car looks like the newest Cadillac but is priced like the newest VW? Yep, a dead ringer for the Seville, I'd say. :P
In the very early 80's, I had a friend that had a '78 Granada, and a friend that had a '76 XJ-6. Both cars were destroyed in single car accedents on mountain backroads (I was in the Granada when it rolled throught the woods). In the end, niether was good enough.
I'm speaking here in terms of North American market,and to my way of thinking 1955 to 1975 seems to work for me. I know AMC/Studebaker was around some of that time , but I doubt GM did much hand wringing worrying about their offerings? Bill C.
Loren
As for AMC scaring GM, they might have put a bit of fear in them from around 1958-62. In 1958, I think Rambler was the only domestic to post a gain in sales. Everybody else dropped...many nosedived and would never recover. By around 1960-61, Rambler was the #3 selling nameplate. Only Chevy and Ford outsold it.
And AMC was certainly enough to make GM wake up and take notice. After all, GM as well as Ford and Chrysler, rushed to get compact cars to the market. And these cars they brought out were really more competition to Rambler products than anything that was imported. No imported cars back then were the size of a domestic compact...at least not mass produced affordable ones.
No had data.. but it is inevitable with 2 cars that are so similar.. especially in the low volume world of sports coupes..
You had me worried so I checked the data. As of 2/1 there was a huge dealer inventory of a whole 1900 vehicles with a 23 day supply. Compared to 11/1 of 1200 units and a 39 day supply. Yes the dealers are finally starting to get a few in due to the 3rd shift and the end of build acceleration but the day supply is way down. That is probably due to the start of the spring selling season.
If you check out the MX3/Miata they now have 5000 units on hand with a 112 day supply.
The Sky and Solstice are very different both inside and out. Both will continue to be in very high demand for at least 2 more years and Mazda will soon have to pull the plug on the MX3/Miata. (made that last one up using the same data you used :P )
Anyone recall that the Granada had a bum engine, which Ford knew about, yet produced an additional year before fixing the problem? Ah, the good ol' days of Ford and GM.
The Thunderbird, second to last generation, was a side profile copy of the BMW 630. The Taurus was a copy style of the Audi, then the Infinity J30, in it's final role.
I guess the Focus is not a copy of anything, or is it? Not of this Earth anyway.
And the Mustang is a Mustang - thank goodness for that!
Guess one of my favorite looks for the Cadillac line is the last Eldorado. The '76 Seville was also a good effort. The CTS, in some odd way, is darn interesting. Needs some work on the interior.
Loren
Reply:
I'll give you that up to a point. AMC had no budget for redesigns and it showed in their offerings.GM knew it could squash them anytime it wanted.Once GM got into the smaller car market it outstyled AMC, and was able to restyle many times while AMC was stuck. Not to say AMC cars were all bad--but it shows how styling can get you noticed in a new market. GM was getting fat on large cars and saw little cars as a waste of time. To some degree I think that's still true today. Trucks may have replaced large cars as the money makers, but the small car is still looked on as a [non-permissible content removed] 2nd cousin at GM,(probably Ford & Chryco,too)IMO
Bill C.
E-NCAP - The EU version of NHSTA just pretty much failed the upcoming all new 2007 Chevrolet Aveo. In a test similar to IIHS "frontal offset- structural rigidity test" at about 40mph.
The steering wheel intruded into the cabin was likely to cause severe chest injury to the driver, producing 1.5 star (2 stars with one crossed) rating.
The current Aveo had decent raiting from ENCAP, NHSTA as well as IIHS... the redesign is coming to USA and Canada in summer 2006 and has not been tested by the US agencies.
While the differences in evaluation between the EU and US agencies are signficant, there is some expectation the new Aveo will do quite poorly in the US tests as well.
SOURCE: http://www.autoblog.com/2006/02/27/chevy-aveo-performs-poorly-in-european-crash-- - test/
E-NCAP REPORT (warning PDF file): http://www.euroncap.com/images/results/small_family_cars/car_250_2006/Chevrolet%- - 20Aveo%20Datasheet%202.pdf
Igor
Jim P.
We had a Kelvinator side-by-side refrigerator at the time. It was our first fridge with a "real" freezer so we could keep ice cream at home, a very big deal! (Our older refrigerator had a small compartment inside the main section that could hold ice cubes but wasn't cold enough to keep ice cream solid.)
Loren
NUMBER 1:
Did you read my post, just above yours? How can a leading manufacturer produce a car in 2006 that FAILS a crash test. I know it is Daewoo car, but GM should not slap their badge on a car that is a deathtrap....I can only laugh... that joke cost them good 100 million to develop and it is a useless piece of crap.
NUMBER 2
With decisions from above like the one about Aveo, I have no doubt that GM can have the best freaking camp of engineers and designers, but if the beancounters refuse to implement it, they are worthless..
Igor
Perhaps Cadillac, Chevy and a few imports will be the new GM after a couple years have pasted us bye. Well, that is for North America. Wonder how project China is going for GM. It is said to be of some promise for the General M.
Loren
Still a few running around.
Loren
So yes a strike at Delphi and GM might become neccessary. It's not what the UAW membership wants. They are sick and tired of their jobs being exported to communist nations, and if this is going to be the buisness practice of the future then GM and Delphi deserve to die a slow death. This is what the company is doing to the Union
(American Workers) and I for one like millions of other americans that care about the overall good of the country are fighting and speaking out against globalization. I guess you are for or against.
My father doesn't want to sell off everything he's worked for in 27 years, and have to spend the rest of his life moving around this country moving from job to job and living in a trailer without a good fight. Good jobs are scarce. The bottom line is good paying jobs even with a degree are damn near non-existent because of outsourcing. Many in the future, especially my generation will retire dead, handing a cart to a poor american customer looking for the China made " sales specials" at Wal-Mart. :sick:
Rocky
Jim P.
Cadillac- Premium Expensive Cars priced over $60K to compete directly with Mercedes on up.
Acura- Premium Cars that are BMW-ish
Pontiac- Dead !!!!! and Honda brand picks up the slack.
Chevy- affordable cars, truck, suv, brand
GMC-Dead
Buick- Cushy RWD old folks cars.
Hummer- Niche macho brand.
Saturn-Dead Aura becomes a chevy. Sky becomes a Acura
Saab-European, Safe, cars that would fit easily in the Honda portfolio. not to mention some of the bio/ethanol technology
I'm sure some of you would have better ideas on how to manage such a transaction.
Rocky
Rocky
As a whole car company (NOT breaking it up for sale, in other words), the only interest Honda might have is getting into the full-size truck market in one fell swoop. What I would like to know is if the UAW contracts would be voided by the sale of the company. If so, Honda could buy it and kill everything but Cadillac and GMC, or if not kill them, then sell the other divisions and close a bunch of plants right away.
I bet they could get some decent money selling Hummer and Chevy. The rest would probably just be killed.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I guess that would be up to Honda. I'm not sure how the current contract reads, but the UAW-IUE-CWA does have alot of say so. I do believe Honda's best interest would be to accept the UAW to avoid a backlash. I would guarantee their would be a riot if it wasn't smoothed over.
The new workers don't have pensions. Roth-401K's is the new thing being offered by GM. Profit Sharing like that given by Toyota would also be a good tool. Honda would dominate and make GM cars alot better than they are no doubt. I think if the deal went over smoothy it would be a breath of fresh air to the autoworkers, not to mention the strong PR that Honda would have in the U.S. Market. Perhaps it would be enough to lure even the most die-hard domestic loyalist to buy a Honda-GM product. I'm all for it. Will it ever happen ? I doubt it. BTW- Honda wouldn't sell Chevy, who's going to buy it. Also the cars are manufactored all over and it would be hard to streamline the plants.
Rocky