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General Motors discussions

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Comments

  • igor2igor2 Member Posts: 148
    Such crap...

    they cannot develop a Saab truck in the US, and Chevy midsize in Europe...

    Or develop an Opel Agila (or whatever) in Korea.. that is what they do not understand...

    Saab / Opel / Holdem (or pick another) needs to develop their own cars... picking a platfrom from the GM offerings and fine tune it for their use, and built the car they need for thei application.

    Better yet... have them all come together and Co-develop the platforms together, so it fits the needs of each one of the applications..

    Example: email to Brand managers, from GM.. We will be developing a new subcompact (A-segment) platform wanna be part of it, and use it in the future? Have a team of 5 engineers come to XY center ... next month. Sincerely, you GM (end of example)

    If GM is still not able to figure out how to share platforms .. in 2006 ... it has not right to survive.. Lutz needs to resign.. along with Wagoner...

    Igor
  • claydogclaydog Member Posts: 26
    Igor you have to broaden your vision from just hindsight and what seems obvious at the moment. The variables in world economics and ever changing market trends make transportation design a high risk gamble that is unmatched in investment and consumer research. Its easy to take pot shots and point fingers. Not so easy to hit a home run around the world 2-3year down the road ...and bet your life on it.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Example: email to Brand managers, from GM.. We will be developing a new subcompact (A-segment) platform wanna be part of it, and use it in the future? Have a team of 5 engineers come to XY center ... next month. Sincerely, you GM (end of example)

    I am confused by your comment. How do you think it works?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I'm talking about when Louis Chevrolet first built his namesake. HE intended it to be a luxury car. GM had other ideas though.
  • kodenamekodename Member Posts: 141
    Using a Bob Lutz's "spin" quote of the day don't fill me with much confidence. Lutz has turned into the auto business equivalent of Donald Trump. He can only spout off about real or make believe achievements,he's incapable of taking one on the chin. If the Tahoe is selling well, I'd have to assume it's selling well only when compared to year before figures, and that kind of comparo is always worthy of further investigation. Talk of Tahoe saving the company seems impossible and way premature if you think about it. C'mon Lutz ,your not always talking to a bunch of dummies! Bill C.
  • igor2igor2 Member Posts: 148
    what I meant is codevelopment..

    Having all parties (Brands) that want to use the given platform be involved in the developemnt.. so if let's say SAAB wants to make sure a turbo 5 cylinder (or something) fits in there.. it will. Or if some ofthe brands want to make sure it can do AWD, or can be rebuilt for RWD,, it can do that to.

    As I said before.. read up on the development of the C1 platform.. it is the best example of platform engineeting I know of. All interested parties (Ford, Mazda, Volvo) were involved and had input, by both bringing their best skills and by making sure the plafotm meets ther needs.

    Ford brought the C170 suspension setup, Mazda worked on chasis tuning (and developed the 4 cylinder MZR/Duratec) and Volvo worked on the safety of the thing.

    Volvo also made sure their 5cylinders and their AWD will work in it. Lastly Ford made sure bunch of it can be used in the "non-platform" RWD application for the Mustang (the 'Stang is not built on any platform, just uses bits from several of them.. bunch of it from C1).

    That is how platform engineering works.. not by having Daewoo develop a car and then just alter the sheetmetal and call it Chevy, Suzuki, Pontiac, Opel/Vauxhal, and G-d forbid a Holdem or Saab.

    Igor
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Bye Bye- Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, Saturn !!!!!

    Chevrolet brand is "the" creme de la creme of GM. It accounted for about 60 percent of 2005 sales. There is no way that GM would scrap "Chevrolet" brand.
  • igor2igor2 Member Posts: 148
    I am not against platform engineering... I am just against the stupid way GM does it.. read my other REPLY
    .. there I explain how I believe Platfrom engineering should work.

    And while the example is in hinsight, FoMoCo was smart to work the way they did in early 2000's.. that a great example was great market understanding.

    Igor
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    It's an anecdote of one, but the local Chevy dealer got in an '07 Tahoe a few weeks ago and it's still sitting in the lot. The handful of HHR's they gotten in so far usually sell in a week or so.
  • igor2igor2 Member Posts: 148
    but brought in 0 profit because all the substandard cars they needed to seel were sold at huge incentives.

    Igor
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Actually the Royal Automobile Club awarded the trophies. Cadillac did not enter the contest. A car salesman in England suggested the test to the "Club". They were skeptical but did agree to the experiment. The contest was open to other manufacturers, probably European, but only the car salesman entered any cars.

    The whole point of the contest was to test the interchangeability of the parts that were used in the three Cadillacs. European manufacturers did not use interchangeable parts, each car was built with parts that were individually fitted to the car. Repairs were impossible without taking the car to someone who could fashion a replacement part.

    So, Standard of the World meant only that Cadillac's were built with interchangeable parts, as were most other American made cars. Standard of the World does not mean that Cadillac was the best luxury car in the world.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The basic profit problem at GM is due to the contract with the UAW that provides them with the capacity to build 6 million vehicles for the US market and they have to pay the workers whether they build 6 million vehicles or not. So, for GM it costs about as much to build 6 million vehicles as to build 4 million.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Well, I do not know if this is what you mean but when a platform or architecture is being developed Marketing/Engineering and financial folks are sent to the Engineering Center in charge to assure that their (the country it will also be developed for) needs are met. ie there are right now a bunch of Americans over in Germany working with them on the new Epsilon II which will be Engineered in Germany but built in and for the Europe and American markets. There are also US engineers in Austrailia doing the same thing. Is this different than what you meant.

    Now this system has only been in use about 5 years but before that there was very little architecture sharing between continents. And where there was it had problems. One example is the last minivan developed. Ended up being engineered so that it did not work well on either continent. Too samll for US and too big for Europe.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    No, not just the UAW wages for working and not working. The Pension and Health care is a bigger problem that the younger transplants do not have.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Health care is a problem, but Pension's should have been paid for when the worker was working. If the entire problem is Pensions, then GM is doomed.

    I think GM needs to bring their production capacity (meaning factories and workers) into balance with the number of vehicles they can sell at prices that are profitable. Higher prices->lower sales. Lower prices->higher sales. Need to balance the price and sales volume to a profitable level. The retired people should expect to pay something for their health care.
  • igor2igor2 Member Posts: 148
    Possibly we agree. It seems it GM might be going simlar way I am describing.. however the way it was described in the quote, it seems GM is still happy to order say, Saab to grab a Vectra and build the 9-3 on it (as they did), or build a bunch of Daewoos and force them upon Suzuki in the US, and sell them as Chevrolet in Europe etc...

    I know that is hot it WAS.. but the quote does not give me confidence that it will change.

    Igor
  • igor2igor2 Member Posts: 148
    I do not know how big of a GM fanboy you need to be to blame hte UAW for everything.

    Even us FoMoCo fanboy stopped doing that.. as I said before.. UAW is not helping, but it is not the one o blame.. especially in response to my comment about how GM dumped all of 2005 MY just to get rid of it because NONE of the models was AT ALL attractive to buyers...

    This is not only about csapacity.. this is about producing cars people want.

    Once again .. I am not saying UAW does not play part, but profit margins are results of more than overcapacity.

    Igor
  • kodenamekodename Member Posts: 141
    Has Lutz and company declared the HHR a hit? Just wondering. IT's different enough looking that you at least tend to notice them on the road ,unlike the bulk of GM offerings. In this community (about 500K) I can go a week and see maybe one on the road.
    At the same time I'd say at least 30% the new GM cars I see on the road here have the little green "E" sticker on the trunk lid(Enterprise Rent-a-Car)
    I wish someone would ask that old ego-maniac Lee Ioacoca what his thoughts are reguarding the current state of the auto business. It might be worth a laugh, or he might have something to say that made sense? He truely loved the attention. Is he still busy selling battery powered bicycles? Bill C.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I did NOT blame the UAW for GM's problems. GM entered into the contract of their own free will. What I said is that GM cannot sell 6 million vehicles profitably - they can't even sell 6 million vehicles. However, they do have the factories and people to build 6 million vehicles and they have to pay them whether or not they actually work.

    I will say that GM's lineup of vehicles could probably be better, but it is really guess work as to what consumers will buy. I want a nice station wagon like the BMW 3 or 5 -series.
  • mirthmirth Member Posts: 1,212
    ...pensions in the US are pretty much dead, so I wouldn't go expecting any pension increases. The future is all 401K's and IRA's. The advantage is that you can control your own destiny and don't have to worry about whether your company will be around in 30 years. The disadvantage is there's no guaranteed return and employees are not forced to participate, so some people will be left out in the cold come retirement time.
  • ubbermotorubbermotor Member Posts: 307
    Point taken.

    However, the winning of the award is part of what built Cadillacs reputation as the worlds best built car, and what originate the whole "Standard of the World" legacy. Lelands demand of lower tolerances is why they were the best built.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Well, the advertising department in the 50's, which is as far back as I have any experience with, misrepresented the meaning of the trophy by implying that the Cadillac was "The Standard of the World".

    Leland actually went into business building Cadillacs, then a midpriced car, because he could not sell Oldsmobile the newer, better engine that he had designed.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    And in one year, the DTS will cost you the same or less than the car named after a carton of milk. I would just buy the DTS as a nearly knew car. The refreshed look on the DTS is pretty good. Buick may be history in a couple years. The DTS looks a bit more distinctive. Lucy looks OK too, but kinda like all the rest of the World cars, rounded into a Buick form.

    Loren
    P.S. Safeway is gonna want their name back, I would think.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...is to see BOTH the DTS and Lucerne as RWD/AWD cars.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    RWD will require a new platform or, the DTS could move onto the sigma platform, but then the price will need to be high enough to limit sales to available capacity. I am not sure how much additional flexability is left in the sigma platform to make a larger vehicle from anyway. If Cadillac wants a deVille RWD sedan that sells like the deVille used to (100,000 plus), then a new RWD platform is needed to make the sedan larger, at a price that will sell well. With a cheaper (than the sigma) platform, RWD Buick sedans are also possible.
  • ubbermotorubbermotor Member Posts: 307
    Actually, he left Cadillac while it was under GM to adapt Cadillac engines to airplane use for the war effert. This venture turned back to cars (Lincoln) after the war and when he filed for bankrutsy, he was bought out by Ford.
  • kodenamekodename Member Posts: 141
    "As a result, the cost of building an engine for the redesigned Camry that goes on sale in March will be about $1,000, half the cost of an engine for the previous generation of Camrys, says Gary Convis, executive vice president for North American manufacturing."
    The above quote is taken from the Chicago Tribune.I post it as just one of the many reasons GM has more problems than a Mr. Lutz can make excusses for, and as an example of why I see a much different future for GM than GM itselfs seems able to admit. Bill C.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Leland started Cadillac though, not GM. I know that he left GM and started Lincoln. Ford worked for Leland at one point early in the development of Cadillac.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Yes! I think the DTS will be by 2008 model. How about keeping the Lucerne around as an entry Caddy FWD for those in need of FWD and a larger car? Rename it the LaSalle. Would imagine Buick is gone soon. I learned to drive with a LeSabre back in the 60's when a Buick was still pretty special. Really nice freeway cruiser car, and classy for driving around town. Time change, so maybe GM will have to let another line or two go into the history books.

    Loren
  • ubbermotorubbermotor Member Posts: 307
    That would have been at a little short lived company called "The Henry Ford Company".
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I think for the FWD platform that the Lucerne and DTS are on to be profitable, the sales of both cars needs to run about 200,000 yearly. So, if only one remains in production, can they sell 200,000? I doubt it. It really makes far more sense to build a Buick RWD sedan on the DTS RWD platform. It might make more sense to build the RWD DTS on the sigma platform, but there are some issues with that.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I have just looked at my Cadillac history book. Ford along with some investors, were trying to develop a car. The investors came to visit Leland about joining them. The details are a bit fuzzy to me, but Cadillac came into being as a result. The first Cadillac was priced at $750. I think Ford was gone before Leland got involved.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >some people will be left out in the cold come retirement time

    We'll have the people who chose not to save during their worktime and who chose trips to Disneyworld every year and flights to Europe will be expecting the taxpayers to take care of them inancially as well as their healthcare needs.

    A company just locked out their union in Middletown, Ohio, at AK steel. That's going to set a tone for Delphi and GM workers when they watch how that is working. The company has replacement workers already and management running the steel mill instead of negotiating with the union.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • chuck1959chuck1959 Member Posts: 654
    How about keeping the Lucerne around as an entry Caddy FWD for those in need of FWD and a larger car? Rename it the LaSalle.

    Nobody would probably know where the LaSalle name came from. I'd name it Calais. Remember Cadillac used that name in the 70's (early 80's?)
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    How about keeping the Lucerne around as an entry Caddy FWD for those in need of FWD and a larger car? Rename it the LaSalle.

    Caddy already has CTS, STS, DTS, XLR and all are tied together with styling theme. You can easily tell that these are Caddies. Lucerne has no ID with Caddies and would diminish Caddy name. If GM drops Buick brand, Lucerne could be an Avalon competitor and would be a plus as the top range Chevrolet which is lacking at this time. If V8 models priced in high 20's, would be very attractive. Chevrolet Lucerne name sounds prestigous. Think that LaSalle name is stodgy and has old-fashioned sound.
  • ubbermotorubbermotor Member Posts: 307
    Ford may have been gone, but Cadillac and Ford Motor Co. derived from the break-up of the Henry Ford Company.

    Hense, The 1903 Model A Ford;

    image

    and 1903 Model A Cadillac;

    image

    Although, like I said before, the caddy was much better built (and it sold better).
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    is that most people nowadays would probably associate it with Oldsmobile. Not sure, but I think the last Caddy Calais was 1975, maybe 1976. I know it didn't get used with the downsized '77 models. I forget when Oldsmobile picked up the name, but they used it from maybe 1981-84 as a sporty trim package on the Cutlass Supreme. It had bucket seats and a console shift, and usually full gauges, and rally wheels, and maybe some special blackout trim, but no performance mods. Then from 1985-91 it was used on the small N-body twin to the Grand Am and Somerset Regal/Skylark.

    As for LaSalle, well most people didn't even know what Archie and Edith were singing in their opening them song, so they actually had to re-sing it every few years to try and pronounce "Gee our old LaSalle ran great". I'm guessing today the LaSalle would be even less recognizable. Beverly LaSalle, anyone? :P
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Actually it was an Oldsmobile Cutlass Calais.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...was the 1976 model. I knew a guy who had a 1967 Cadillac Calais two-door hardtop. It was so plain it even had crank windows. He called it "the working man's Cadillac."
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    but for a few years, like 1985-87, it was just "Calais". Then they stuck the Cutlass name on it, in an attempt to capitalize on it, but in the end they just watered down a once equitable name brand. I don't think most people would remember the Cutlass Calais, as most Cutlass Supremes sold around that time were probably base models or brougham models. The N-body version is probably what most people would remember, although perhaps its fading from memory now.

    I think the Cutlass Calais was renamed Cutlass Salon for 1985-88. Can't remember for sure though, as Olds tended to switch around their trim levels on occasion. In 1978-79, Cutlass Salon denoted those clumsy "aeroback" models.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    i>Only problem with Calais is that most people nowadays would probably associate it with Oldsmobile.

    One thing that GM beats every vehicle manufacturer present and past is discarded names. Wonder if they have a department that keeps track of these. For Caddies in recent decades: Allante, Brougham, Calais, Catera, Cimarron, Deville, Coupe De Ville, Eldorado, Eldorado Biarritz, Eldorado Brougham, Eldorado Seville, Fleetwood Eldorado, Fleetwood, Seville, Sixty Special. Would imagine that GM has a lock on these names. Didn't Chevy get in trouble for using the Baretta name?

    Wonder if Caddy will do retro concept car (in Camaro vein) to bring back tailfins of 59 model or some aspects of themes from past? Think that Caddy won the tail-fin wars. Don't all styles eventually get recycled just like mini-skirts for women? Lots of goofy themes going on styling wise with some German makes and Subaru fish grille. Maybe we will see some really elegant styling from GM in coming years?
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Beretta gun company sued GM claiming the name diminished the fine name of the quality firearms company. Can not believe they stole that name for the car. And now Safeway dairy products trade name is on a Buick. Interesting, to say the least.

    I would bring back the name DeVille and Eldorado. What's with all these letters now? Is the car more hip, or Euro flavored when the letters are put on the Caddy? And what is wrong with the name Seville? STS sound more like a medical condition than anything else. Oh well, better than Sephia.

    Loren
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    ............we should nostalgically review the pre-world-war history of all the major American car manufacturers!

    :-P

    (Amusing and entertaining, BTW)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    m1miata wrote: "And now Safeway dairy products trade name is on a Buick. Interesting, to say the least."

    I'm certain that this has been covered before . . . Actually, Buick was trying to project a name with a European influence or flair. Although it may also be a Safeway dairy product, the name that first comes to my mind is the English spelling of the city of Luzern, Schweiz (Switzerland). The English-translation or version is Lucerne. As one who has spent some time in this beautiful city, Buick's choice is not a bad one!

    Take a look: http://www.lucerneguide.ch/
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    The English-translation or version is Lucerne. As one who has spent some time in this beautiful city, Buick's choice is not a bad one!

    Classy name. The Swiss state and lake existed before Safeway. Glad Buick did not rehash Roadmaster. But, they still dipped into some Harvey Earl tacky gimmicks such as fake portholes. Wonder if BMW would ever try something other than 3,5,7 series names. But, because of their reputation, people would buy anyway even if a 3 series were renamed something else. Names can mean a lot to an image. Look at woman in Supreme Court recently - she changed her name. So do most actors, actresses. Its part of the whole image, including looks, styling (cars).
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    125,000 replacement workers, though, the union people would riot in the streets (and at the factories!).

    Although I recall reading at least one article that dealt with GM hiring replacement workers, just in case. :D

    It's gonna get interesting in 2006 with this issue.
    GM is talking about putting the new world order Camaro into production plus is planning several other moves like tomorrow is just tomorrow, and finances or not GM will move forward. I guess that's how they have to work it, why plan to fail, eh?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • kodenamekodename Member Posts: 141
    As reported by NBC news tonight, the new Consumer Reports all auto issue (2006) will show every top recommendation in every catagory is held by a Japanese brand vehicle. Not German, and no GM , Ford or Chrysler names. I know Gear heads like to knock Consumer Reports , but the fact is they don't play favorites and a great many buyers use it as their shopping guide , if not their shopping bible. On network news tonight a spokesperson for C-U said a 8 year old Toyota has the same reliability as a 3 year old GM,Ford, or Chryco. Ouch, that's gotta hurt! So that puts real pressure on styling to get them in door to shop. Aside from Mustang,300C, and maybe Soltice(so long as you don't have to have a front license plate), they have nothing stimulating to offer. Bill C.
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    Here's a press release from Consumer Reports about the most recent list:

    Here, by category, are the issue's best performers. Changes from last year's Top Picks list are noted:

    -- SEDAN (Less than $20,000/Small Sedan): Honda Civic. The new Civic ($17,000 to $20,000) has a roomy interior, a comfortable ride, and good handling and fuel economy. Manual- and automatic- transmission versions get 31 and 28 mpg overall. The hybrid gets 37 mpg overall. Curtain air bags are standard and crash-test results are impressive. (Last year's Top Pick for Small Sedans was the Ford Focus.)

    -- SEDAN ($20,000-$30,000/Family Sedan): Honda Accord. The Accord provides an excellent balance of comfort, roominess, and handling. Each model provides good fuel economy for its class, with the four-cylinder and V6 models getting 23 and 24 mpg overall. The Hybrid delivers quicker acceleration and moderately better gas mileage of 25 mpg overall.

    -- SEDAN ($30,000-$40,000/Upscale Sedan): Acura TL. The TL is among the highest-scoring sedans and provides a near-ideal blend of comfort, convenience, and sportiness -- all at a reasonable $33,700. It handles well and delivers a controlled, quiet ride. The interior has excellent fit and finish. The TL is quick, while still getting a commendable 23 mpg.

    -- LUXURY SEDAN: Infiniti M35. The M35 provides an excellent balance of performance, comfort, and handling. Available in rear- or all-wheel drive, the V6-powered M35x (about $50,000) is as capable threading a twisty road as it is cruising on the highway. A $69,000 V-8 powered M45 model is also available. (Last year's Top Pick was the Lexus LS430.)

    -- FUN TO DRIVE: Subaru Impreza WRX/STi. The rally-car inspired Impreza WRX and its high-performance STi variant (about $25,000 and $33,000, respectively) prove that consumers don't have to spend a lot of money or give up practicality to get a fun-to-drive sports car. Both cars blend quick acceleration and very agile handling with the practicality of four doors.

    -- SUV (Less than $30,000/Small SUV): Subaru Forester. The Forester is a good vehicle and a good value-about $23,000 for the 2.5X. This car-based, all-wheel-drive SUV handles nimbly and rides comfortably. The Honda CR-V ($24,000) is a very good runner-up, with more room and standard electronic stability control.

    -- SUV (More than $30,000/Midsized SUV): Toyota Highlander Hybrid. The Highlander Hybrid ($35,000 to $40,000) is a well- rounded SUV that delivers quick acceleration, a comfortable ride, and a third-row seat. Its 22 mpg is impressive for a midsized SUV. This hybrid and its near twin, the 23 mpg Lexus RX400h ($50,000), are the only SUVs to achieve an excellent overall score in CR's testing. Another excellent choice, with a better third-row seat, is the Honda Pilot ($29,000 to $35,000). (Last year's Top Pick for Midsized SUV was the Lexus RX330.)

    -- MINIVAN: Honda Odyssey. The Honda Odyssey ($26,000 to $37,000) leads the minivan class with agility, refinement and interior flexibility. Electronic stability control and curtain air bags are standard. The interior is well-crafted and comfortable. The Toyota Sienna ($25,000 to $39,000), another high scorer, is quieter, rides more comfortably, and offers all- wheel-drive, but is less agile.

    -- GREEN CAR: Toyota Prius. For the third year, the $23,000 gasoline/electric hybrid Toyota Prius is CR's pick, thanks to its excellent 44 mpg overall fuel economy. It is certified by the California Air Resources Board as a near-zero-emission vehicle. With a roomy interior, reasonable performance, and the versatility of a hatchback, the Prius is a good alternative to a midsized sedan.

    -- PICKUP TRUCK: Honda Ridgeline. The Honda Ridgeline ($28,000-$35,000) redefines the pickup, combining the comfortable ride and agile handling of a car-based chassis with a good payload capacity. The roomy cab features nice details and is easy to access. It even offers a weather-tight trunk in the bed. For consumers who want a longer bed and more towing capacity, Consumer Reports suggests the Toyota Tundra.
  • kodenamekodename Member Posts: 141
    "Dont count on GM to slowly sink. They have bright minds in leadership roles and will do what it takes to compete. No government loans or handouts necessary."
    The problem with the above statement is that even if GM had brilliant engineers and managers, they only seem capable under the GM structure to save one product name at a time. They run from one fire to another, and now they have no money to spend so there forced to think and share on the cheap.Pontiac will get it's version of the Cobalt, Saturn to get it's version of the Soltice,etc. Something borrowed and nothing new. Who are they fooling? Bill C.
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    CU tends to historically favor Honda vehicles over most others, including Toyota. If the average consumer compares an Accord head to head with a Camry, I'll bet the majority picks the Camry. Recent sales figures confirm this. But, CU continues to flag the Accord. The problem is Toyota just raised the bar.

    Go over to the new Civic forum, and just see how many people are unhappy with their 2006 Civic, especially the infamous "Lug Bug" problem.

    Although I'm not necessarily a fan of GM products, I don't think CU gives Detroit iron a fair break. It really never did, and most likely never will.
This discussion has been closed.