mediocre means in the middle, not sub-standard. Standard would mean being good enough without being world class. This seems to be what GM is trying for: good enough, but not world class. Perhaps the truck line is better. The cars are not.
there are costs involved with having an option. Air Conditioning was made standard because so few cars were ordered without it that it was cheaper to make it standard.
I'll use my example to tell you guys about the problem with GM. First some background, I've owned 3 GM cars 89 Pontiac Grand Prix, 88 Fiero GT, and 91 Chevy Camaro, and my parents currently have a 99 Chevy S-10 P/U. Each of these cars was mediocre, the Grand Prix had the pealing paint problem, and poor interior trim quality, the Camaro always felt loose, the Fiero had certain stupid unfinished design items such as the windows not rolling all the way down into the doors, while the S-10 is fine, but the dash quality does feel super cheap and it rides pretty poorly.
Still I would like to give GM a chance, however they make nothing that I want to buy, besides maybe a Solstice. (Currently drive a 01 BMW 525i with 86k that has been pretty good though not perfect, but still feels brand new, and all the interior buttons, etc, looks/feel brand new)
GM- Please make your cars appeal to the young urban consumer ( I am 31, educated professional). None of my friends even want to think GM, the cars are huge. why is a grand prix and impala, 10 inches longer then accord/camry and have no more interior space. What's the point? Why is the ION/Cobalt equally large, compared to the imports, w/o more space.
Why does GM have no rear wheel drive cars to compete with the BMW 3's and Lexus IS, sorry CTS is way way longer.
About the only GM car that interest me know is the 07/08 CTS, but there is no info on it, and I don't think I can wait that long..
sorry to rant, but I keep getting disappointed, though hope for the best.
I'll use my example to tell you guys about the problem with GM. First some background, I've owned 3 GM cars 89 Pontiac Grand Prix, 88 Fiero GT, and 91 Chevy Camaro, and my parents currently have a 99 Chevy S-10 P/U. Each of these cars was mediocre, the Grand Prix had the pealing paint problem, and poor interior trim quality, the Camaro always felt loose, the Fiero had certain stupid unfinished design items such as the windows not rolling all the way down into the doors, while the S-10 is fine, but the dash quality does feel super cheap and it rides pretty poorly.
Still I would like to give GM a chance, however they make nothing that I want to buy, besides maybe a Solstice. (Currently drive a 01 BMW 525i with 86k that has been pretty good though not perfect, but still feels brand new, and all the interior buttons, etc, looks/feel brand new)
GM- Please make your cars appeal to the young urban consumer ( I am 31, educated professional). None of my friends even want to think GM, the cars are huge. why is a grand prix and impala, 10 inches longer then accord/camry and have no more interior space. What's the point? Why is the ION/Cobalt equally large, compared to the imports, w/o more space.
Why does GM have no rear wheel drive cars to compete with the BMW 3's and Lexus IS, sorry CTS is way way longer.
About the only GM car that interest me know is the 07/08 CTS, but there is no info on it, and I don't think I can wait that long..
sorry to rant, but I keep getting disappointed, though hope for the best.
I agree with ya, Rocky - they should fire everyone in the Job Bank, and the white collar bottlenecks too! They should all go! Probably, in the end, the result will be the same, when they fold up shop, or are acquired by Hyundai.....
Ok let's see drove a Zephyr and it felt lifeless, slow, with dull handling, so don't think so, also looking to stay with rear drive, though I will say that the Fusion styling isn't bad when it's black, still like the Euro Fords much better.. why aren't they sold here unmolested. same goes for GM. If you have cool euro designs, which are pretty much sold everywhere else why not sell them here, esp when so many people want something different, and european.
Well spoken, sid. I have owned a bunch of GM cars over the years, and they have mostly ranged from mediocre to pathetic. My first one was a 75 Vega in College, (so you know how old I am now), admittedly, not GM's best effort. But I next bought an 81 Malibu, 83 Cadillac, 85 Buick, 87 Oldsmobile, 88 Oldsmobile, 89 Pontiac, 90 Cadillac, 91 Buick and finally, one last try, a 99 Pontiac Bonneville, the last straw. Liked the 85 Park Avenue, 87 Ninety Eight, 88 Eighty Eight the best. But they weren't terribly reliable. I agree with your comments completely. :sick:
What bothers me about the domestics are three things. 1. Have they not been doing this for YEARS before the Asians? How much time does it take? Okay, they make the best full size trucks. 2.Rental fleets. They gain market share at my personal resale loss. 3. The Cash shell game. Rebates, dealer cash, whatever... if you buy too soon you're shorted. Let's not forget the current CR magazine that shut all the domestics out of the top 10 cars. The sad part to me about making this post, is I am a GM and Ford fan.I hope they get it together before it's too late.
I am in a (rented) Silverado this weekend, which rounds out my sampling of full-size pick-ups, and it is also DEFINITELY mediocre. And all my samplings were in rentals. The F-150 is pretty cool - tied with the Tundra for carlike-ness. The Ram is just so darn huge, I don't think I could live with one of those every day. Actually, the F-150 approaches that point too.
By contrast, the Silverado has a hard cheap dash and steering wheel, bounces all over the road when it's not loaded to the gills, and the half doors squeak all the time, making an incessant racket. It is the same age generationally as the Tundra, yet the Tundra is a much more pleasant vehicle to drive, and better over the road too, loaded or empty. At least neither wants for power when the bed is full. When the new Silverado comes in the fall, it had better jump about three steps forward evolutionally.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
How can someone come away from a bad experience with a 1975 Vega, and as their next vehicle , they go back to GM? Tens of thousands have done it year after year. You read it in these posts all the time. GM has (rightly so) grown accustom to this type of buyer."Sell them some crap, and don't worry about it, they'll be back" This occured over and over thru the 70's-80's-90's. Now, in 2006,, it's still going on for some people. They somehow can't leave no matter how bad the product, they can't seem to come to grip the facts. New , younger generations apparently are not falling prey to this "love and never leave GM" sickness. Even a few of the gray hairs out there have decided to stop paying homage to the GM gods. The rest , perhaps out of mis-guided pride, will have to ride the ship clear to the bottom. Still, as their lungs fill with water, they won't comprehend what has taken place or why. Bill C.
well said.. I drove a 99 Expedition.. then bought an 05 Focus and not bought a used 04 Mazda3...
Ford dealers were the dealbreakers to me.. I had the Focus for less than 6 months... and while it had a couple of rattles it drove well.. but then I got this weird knowck in my rear hub..
The thing was I wouldn't mind it if stuff got fixed. You know.. I mean a mass produced car can have a nick or two ... no sweat.. but after 6 trips to the deler I just coudn't handle anymore them bringing the csr back with "could not replicate" .... so after the refused to fix the rear hub knock, I decided to cut my losses and get out of it.
And here is the catch for GM.. and good point for Ford.. while I considered other cars, I really liked the engine, and liked the whole approach to csars FoMoCo has.. And luckily I am not dependent on Ford, Lincoln and Mercury when it comes to FoMoCo cars.. so I went with Mazda.. if I has the money and wanted a plushier ride I can go with Volvo.. or Land Rover... or if I am swimming in money -Aston martin...
Ford lost me as a customer for nice long time.. but FoMoCo managed to keep me... Unfortunately, I do not see GZM having this type of "safety net" ... Maybe Saab, but even that is not that great of an option.
Ford Lincoln and Mercury make me excted because of their potential, and the potential of FoMoCO.. Saturn makes me excited because of Opel.. but the rest of GM is boring and out of the question, and none of them wil get my business, I just don;t trust them
>GM is a little behind Ford on Pony cars.... well maybe more than just a little. The Camaro project does off some hope though.
Yes - but once again, several years behind Ford in this revival. This isn't one of GM's strengths, as you stated. They always tend to react here. Come to think of it, haven't noticed GM leading the industry anywhere of late.
If people who bought Hondas and have a bad experience on oh say their 03 Accord didn't buy another Honda, we could say the same thing.
Or perhaps those with Odysseys which have a drumming sound they can't get rid of that allegedly will be engineered out NEXT year-(read it in Odyssey discussion here)- could need to do the same. or the Pilot (same car?) with problems do the same.??????
Somehow they're very forgiving of Honda, so far. But can you say Hyundai?
Yeah, Hyundai is very nearly gonna make lunch meat of Honda & Toyota, well maybe at least Nissan soon. But the styling GM has today, sure isn't going to save them. I think it's over. It's not just the styling - it's the cornbinder pushrod engines, cheap beyond explanation interiors, uncomfortable seats and wobblybodys that need to be fixed, as well as the styling. Potentially Cadillac, excepted.
One thing that GM cannot learn how to make is steering wheels. I am not talking about steering feeling only. In most cases their design looks so old school, I mean plain antiquated. Take new Impala, Lucerne. May be that is because platforms themselves are antiquated. But I love the new three-spoke steering wheel that you can find in new Saturns and G6. I like G6 GTP, but steering being heavy enough and giving good amount of information from road does not feel precise like Fords. And new GM 3.9L pushrod is pretty good. It does not sound as pushrod at all and is pretty smooth and quick. But I did not test it on freeway, don’t know is it as good at 80 mph.
The 2003 Accord and other 2002/2003 Hondas have the highest resale value in the market today. That was in a report from last month that you can pull out from the net if u wanted. If the problems were predominant, they would have affected resale value greatly.
styling: G6 is ok. deal is, as the guys from cartalk.com said good vehicle, If you get one on one of these big discount sales. I agree. Nice ride, if you get one with family discount plan. Otherwise,there are others who fit the bill, for less cash.
HHR: The only "suv/crossover" , etc, thing my spouse and I both thought looked decent enough to own for a few years. Problem: ROOM or lack of it! Got into a model we would like,, with the sunroof. Zero headroom. We got into the front serats, adjusted them for comfort, then hopped in the back seats, or TRIED to...and there is little ot no room. If we sat up front with our knees into our chests, yeah, you would have room in back. Shoulder Room up front? Again, use the arm rests, have a coat on? you constatly are brushing up against each other, and nearly touching shoulders if you get your drink, for example, rom the cup holder(what gives here? Even the Kia Rio sedan has more shoulder and head and rear seat room!).
Chevy decides to maybe(Big Maybe...) do a mid-cycle freshen up, and add 4 inches of width,at leastm 2-3inches more headroom, and 2-3 inches of rear leg room(probablywould mean lengthening the whole vehicle, or lose a little of their cargo area in back). Maybe they should make it (or knock down kit it) to their GM-DAT plant, in South Korea, and lower MSRP, increase HP and size!
Chevy needs tolook at Scion tC, add a 3 door hatch to that Cobalt(Cavalier rework), and more room, like I said about the HHR. I'll buy another tC before a Cobalt, as the Cobalt is not very room.
How can the tC have soo much interior room, and the Cobalt feel so small(adds sunroof, folks...you'll see, BIG Difference in the 2, then, bith with sunroofs).
Chevy stuff just looks so" that was 5 minutes ago" looks. Corvette is always a winner, but at 40-50K, it had better be. That thing they have, 2 seat truck with corvette engine in it? Try one with say a small V8 from the Impala(303HP) instead, and 25K, and you might sell some.
It seems their stuff is either too small, too bland(some models), it is like they are "missing the trolley",lol. ;-)
Only thing I would consider rom Chevy is HHR, IF they ever improve it(super-size it, or at least, mid-sized sedan interior sized it).
above post, I know, Pontiac/G6. Still a GM car. malibu 5 door(which is a good idea, that 5 door, but not very nicely executed like some 5 doors are, and too pricey).
you HUGELY oversimplify the resale value setting...
Mostly the trouble is in lack of information of an average car buyer. Do you think most of them know that they should not buy first model year cars, or which model years had quirks?
They see an Accord (o whatever else) and melt in the hands of a salesperson..
Many of the things we assume are hard science are just a tag-along of the halo of a brand.
Somehow, because Toyota operated Scion, Scion is G-d's gift to worl and will have zero issues.. the xB rattlebox is a perfect example.
A brand's Halo is something that has nothing to do with present reality of quality and leadership.
Halo is usually about 10 years behind. that is why even though Camry lost HUGELY to other cometitors such as the Accord, Sonata and Fusion in many comparos, it is still the queen in buyers' eyes.. that is why no one cares about Scion issues. That is why it will take about another 5-10 years for Hyundai and KIa to be fully respected and their make not perceived as a handicap to the model at question. And that is why even if ford and GM started building class leading vehicles todaym, for another 10 years ,people would be avoiding them, because within the past 10 years they were crap.
Resale is all based on halo .. not at all on actual facts, unless some fact was SO HUGE that it perpetrated the halo, and that happens rarely.
Besides the "halo" I talk about in another post.. the overall owner satisfaction with the car determines whether an owner mids little quirks..
I had a Focus and thanks to very bad dealership experience at every stop, and some buyers remorse (I wanted 5speed after all), I started to hate the car.. there was nothing wrong with the car.. but even a small rattle in the dash was a HUGE issues with me, becaue I was not overall joyful about the car...
Now with Mazda3 (I bought it CPO), within the 2 months I have had it, I had it in the shop 4 times, twice for somewhat major problems.. do I care? NO!!!.. the car is pure joy on wheels and fits my desires perfectly. I LOVE IT,,... heck even if the engine died on me (knocks on head) I would still love it...
If one is happy with their car even an engine relacement can be brushed off as a bad apple.. but if you have a car that you bought just because the price was right, and it does not personally excite you, even a dash rattle will make you miserable.
BTW that is why JD Power, Strategic Vision etc.. rankings are so meaningless.. they never specify what is MAJOR Issue...
Once again.. buyers and owners do not think rationally... car ownership is a gut thing.. and it stays as unpredictable as all other "gut" things.
I looked up the I-4(GS?), and test drove one. Nice.
More of a tourer with the automanual I-4. With the surnoof, they add contorls ot steering wheel(redundant radio controls, correct?) and 650watt stereo(if they only added the sunroof/conrtols, I could live w/o the 650watt stereo, andwould rather save the extra 500-800 dollars or whatever that system cost...). Long story short, the I-4, for us, is attainable, but., No Leather available(V6. yes?). Plus, only 6 way seat adjuster, but thsoe were tolerable enoug, seats good enough, I could live with that.
What did ya pay? It will be 3years or so more before we can do trade in(and not get taken)...and by then, the "2010" model(they usually do 5 year runs with each design...should be on last year of current run by late 09) should be out, maybe on sale?
Anyhow. sorry to prattle on almost in a nonsense manner. If our 99 sonata did not start nickel and diming us to death a year before pay off(sept 04) and would haev lasted until sept 05.... that I-4 would most likely be in my drive. Nice ride. Very nice.
There are about 15 eclipses inmy area. This is GM country. They give you the evil looksif you don't own ford or gm.
Anyhow, I have seen 4 susukis(forenza sedans, and 1 decent looking Reno, blue), 10 or so Hyundai, adn a few dozen Toyotas and Hondas(hardly any Mazdas, Kias, VW, Nissans).
Seems the top 5 foreign car makers here are toyota, honda,hyundai, and mitsubishi and now suzuki. Mitsu, have seen only 1 suv, and 1 or 2 lancers, rest are eclipses from 95-05(no new one's yet> probabaly a little pricey for this area, due to higher paying jobs/ shortages, etc).
In fact, even at the college I go by, not one Nissan. No VW's. 1 protege(mazda).
Seems the college people, though, are stuck on honda toyota. see a few sonatas. that's it.
so, in the coutnry, it is "big3", at college, "big2-japan".
In between? mainly Big3, but a lot of these Toyota and honda, but Hyundai, Mitsu and Suzuki playing catch up!
Sorry to digress.
I dunno. It seems the dealerships act as if they could care less if they sell you a car or not(Big3) in my area. That is one big negative.
A local Chevy dealer that has been in business for all my life (37 years) has just closed. It was a sister dealership to a Buick dealership two towns over (maybe 8 miles away).
The Chevy dealer has a big sign trumpeting that they've relocated to their new location, but really it's the same old Buick dealer with a bunch of Malibus crammed in the back.
nvbanker: Yeah, Hyundai is very nearly gonna make lunch meat of Honda & Toyota, well maybe at least Nissan soon. But the styling GM has today, sure isn't going to save them. I think it's over. It's not just the styling - it's the cornbinder pushrod engines, cheap beyond explanation interiors, uncomfortable seats and wobblybodys that need to be fixed, as well as the styling. Potentially Cadillac, excepted.
Hyundai is hurting GM - in particular, Chevrolet. I read that the brands most cross-shopped with Chevrolet are Hyundai and Kia(!). For the most part, people buying Hondas and Toyotas (passenger cars and minivans) do not even look at Chevrolets anymore.
Chevrolet, Hyundai and Kia are the vehicular equivalents of Walmart (maybe that's the REAL reason that Walmart always pops up in any GM discussion), while Honda and Toyota have assumed the position of the lower-medium price brands (what Pontiac was in the 1960s) - a step up from the "mass market."
I don't know for sure on my own from whom Hyundai is taking sales but they have been showing up in this area for 2 years strongly despite a few dealership ownership changes at the closer one.
I felt they were getting Honda and Toyota sales with the older set. You indicate they're really taking Chevy buyers away. But in this area Impalas and Malibus are present as much as every. I do understand I'm in Western Ohio; your market may be (drastically) different.
ubbermotor: Wow, everything? Cadillac's are mediocre? The CTS, STS, DTS and XLR are mediocre? Including the V-series cars? The SRX which was just voted best luxury SUV for the third year in a row by Car & Driver, is mediocre?
The Silverado, Tahoe and Suburban must surely be sub-standard in your book.
How about the Corvette? Even the Z06 is mediocre? Gee. You don't think you might be over stating things just a wee bit?
You've just (unintentionally) summarized GM's big problem.
Yes, the Corvette is great, as are a fair number of the Cadillacs. The big trucks and SUVs are still pretty good considering their age, and, if the new Tahoe is an accurate indication, the next-generation of big trucks and SUVs will be a hit.
But GM can't survive on big trucks (especially with gas prices in danger of going up) and a few Cadillacs and the Corvette. It must effectively compete in the subcompact, compact, family sedan, crossover, small SUV and mid-size SUV market.
Most mergers have never worked out very well, at least not to expectations. Generally speaking, if you go by past automotive history, mergers are a bad idea unless of course the dominant company simply parts out the victim and using their file cabinets and buildings. Did Rover make money for BMW--nope, cost them a fortune. Has Jaguar really done anything for Ford? Where's Saab now under GM? Did Studebaker save Packard? Are Chrysler/Benz a really happy couple now that they are married?
There were once perhaps 1,500 car companies in America...all you are seeing is the end of a long, long line of attrition.
Here is an interesting thought. During the years of GM's styling leaderhip, their styling was always reactive in the mainstream market. While Cadillac, Buick and Olds made attempts at cutting edge, Chevrolet was usually one of the last to follow a trend.
The reason was that mainstream buyers are the most conservative when it comes to styling. Cutting edge designs have never sold well, and tend to bomb in volume markets.
Consider the Tuarus. Introduced to crital acclaim in '86 in sold better than the Victoria LTD it replaced, but was a outdated design before it took the number 1 sales slot. The redign was critisized for being to conservative, but it held number 1 spot. Redesign 2 was radical (in reguard to styling), and it has beenhanging on due to recognition alone.
>That thing they have, 2 seat truck with corvette engine in it? Try one with say a small V8 from the Impala(303HP) instead, and 25K, and you might sell some.
It's an SSR - and the first year models, (03?) had that 5.3L V-8 in 'em. They sold for abouty $55,000 then, with dealer ad-ons, but you can now get one of the new ones with the big engine for about $35,000. So, if you find a low mileage 03, the price should be just right for you, and yes, they are slick.
Well, before you declare me a total moron - may I point out what the competition was in 75 please? The Pinto. Marginally better, if you didn't get rear-ended. The Plymouth Duster. Need I say more. Moving through the years, not a lot changed for a long time. On the import front, you had the Toyota Crown Mark II in 75. Face it, the Japanese cars were reliable, but they were rattletraps and rust buckets well into the 80's. Economy was excellent, but they were a rough ride. Even an 83 Cressida, Toyota's top of the line, was terribly reminiscent of the Ford Fairmont in most respects of how it drove, was powered, and rattled. I've compared them side to side.
Eventually, I left GM and drifted off to Ford, which I think started to produce "some" better cars than GM in the late 80's, Taurus being one. Crown Victoria another. Lincolns were great in the 90's.
You're correct, grbeck - I buy abouty 5 cars per week at the auction for clients and friends - Chevy, Hyundai & Kia are clearly the car of choice for the new driver, the college kid, or the "just want a good cheap car" crowd. And they are nearly interchangeable. Some of them want Civics or Corollas - but when I tell them what they're going to have to pay for them, they faint - that's when I suggest an Elantra or an Accent. Still have warrantys, so far, never had one come back. It's hard to sell a Focus to anybody - and I don't try to. Don't know where they fit in. C/R liked them, but I never did.
The Plymouth Duster was competition for the Vega and Pinto? The Duster was competition for the Nova and Maverick. Chrylser imported the Dodge Colt to go up against the Vega and Pinto.
The Toyota Crown Mark II? You would compare the biggest, most expensive Toyota of the day to the cheapest from Ford and Chevy. For Pinto/Vega dollars you were looking at Corolla's and 210's.
And as sad as this is, even with the Pinto being the most recalled car of the decade, it was one of the most reliable cars in the class.
Ok, ubber, technically, you're right about the Duster. Forgot about the Colt, as I never considered one. My bad.
And, yes, I would compare the Crown Mark II against the Vega and Pinto because size wise, equipment wise and price wise, they seemed most comparable to me. The Crown I looked at, had a 3 on the tree transmission, no A/C, was slower than the Pinto, and as stodgy as a Studebaker. I was laughing at the time. Who knew? Thought my Vega was hot! Well, it did run hot lots of the time, before the engine disintegrated.
Our housekeeper has a focus and loves it. I know they had a rough start but she's amazing been very happy with hers. She had a Ford pickup-larger than base model but don't recall the numbers.
This forum is about 2006 styling saving GM. Styling is part of the equation, but reliability resale value and technical innovation are also very important. GM can restyle all they want, but until the other attributes of their vehicle improve they will continue to be dead in the water. Why don't they give the same warranty as Kia or Hyundai? Also, I cannot believe that the new Chevy HRR has a solid rear axle with rear drum brakes and that GM still use the old push-rod engines in their FWD vehicles. Comments?
I think your figures are inaccurate and you are wet behind the ears. If Americans cars are bigger on the outside, they have just as much space inside as foreign cars with the same size on the outside. It strange you criticize for lack of interior space and you mention maybe the only GM car you would buy is the Solstice. For those who don't know, the Solstice has very little interior space. And that's the character of the beast for that type of cars.
grbeck wrote: "Chevrolet, Hyundai and Kia are the vehicular equivalents of Walmart (maybe that's the REAL reason that Walmart always pops up in any GM discussion), while Honda and Toyota have assumed the position of the lower-medium price brands (what Pontiac was in the 1960s) - a step up from the "mass market.""
This is exactly what one would have said, excluding the Chevrolet reference, back in the early '70s regarding Datsun, Honda, and Toyota. I cross-shopped, and directly A-B compared and drove a Honda and Toyota, but bought a Hyundai, not based on price or warranty, but by carefully driving and inspecting the cars.
As one who's been buying new cars for almost 50 years now, I assure you that Hyundai is the next coming of the Japanese brands we all hold in such high esteem. It's only logical if you've followed the historical perspective of all Asian brands. GM should be as potentially worried about Hyundai as they are Toyota.
My wife has a 2005 Focus SE sedan with 24,000 miles on it. She had it when we were married...so far, we've had no problems with it. I love the engine, ride-and-handling combination and room. I also like the styling. Ford needs to dampen the road noise and improve the fit-and-finish of the interior. I really think the car is underrated, but Ford made a major mistake in not having the next-generation Focus for sale in the United States by now.
As for the Pinto versus the Vega - I remember the Pinto as having a much nicer level of interior trim than the Vega, which really defined "bargain basement" in those days.
Plus, the Pinto was not known as a troublesome car. Too bad Iacocca didn't let the engineers spend a few more dollars on the fuel system...Ford would have been saved a world of grief.
Saving a few dollars up front often costs much more down the road...I don't think they've still learned that lesson.
G6 passed front partial headon impact along with IS (whatever that is) and BMW 3. Passes side impact IF it has optional airbags which will be standard next year. IS and BMW (guess what) passed with top rating for side impact. $28 or $35000 cars compared to others in group at $20000?
Two cars did not have side air bags standard and were tested that way along with air bags, G6 and Fusion, and both will have them standard next year. Fusion did not do well on front impact, IIRC. I may also have pricing for IS and BMW 3 wrong but you get the idea...
Where were Camry and Accord when doing this testing? Or was the Insurance Institute just taking CR's word for those two?
with how many miles a vehicle goes, w/o major issues, or parts replacements(like tranny, for example) then a car that is 20 years old, and 78,000 miles.
My inlaw has a 10 year old tracker(suzuki). Not bad, 87,000 miles. No major issues.
I had a 1990 sentra, xe, 9 years + old, and had 233,000+ miles. Dumped it due to major rust problems. I got hit by 2 vehicles after 5years of ownership, and a deer . As you all know, after an accident, your vehicle is never the same, unless you own a body and repair shop, and maybe do the work yourelf, and pay good bucks to get it up to "new". Anyhow, if I had driven my Sentra like my inlaws(minus the rust factor) tracker, about 8,700 miles per year, I'd still have that Sentra today!
I just am more impressed with Miles(and age of vehicle) and OME ,or have you replaced the tranny,etc...
Anyone can have a car for 25 years, if you only drive in 7-10K per year, do not get in a wreck(if possible), and keep up maintainence, no matter what the brand.
If your vehicle is 12 years old, and 300K... that is more impressive to me(especially if only maintainence items were replaced).
Not trying to be nasty here, but just saying what I have observed in my area the past 11 years since moving here. Most people only drive 5-10K per year, and a few 15-20K. I know of very few that drive over 20K per year.
My spouse drives 35,000 on avg per year. I drive about 17-20K.
My neighbors drive 3,500 per year.
Who do you think will have their vehicles the longest, barring any accidents, or mechanical failure? Sure won't be the spouse, or me.
Take Care, And Not Offense. Thsi was an observation(s) type of comment.
IS is the new Lexus that has a staggering range in pricing.
I guess if the G6 is duller than promised, but safe, that's not a bad thing. If the media can play it up (and yes, the supposedly liberal media was playing up the performance of a domestic car), it might garner some actual private sales.
The G6 looks like a car that's not as pretty as it really could have been. But seems really practical. I'm glad to hear it has some safety attractiveness -- IF you buy the side airbags, which I would want on any car.
I was surprised the Focus didn't pass the front test well. I would have thought Ford would have designed it as well as possible for those tests as well as the government tests.
Aren't the Accord and Camry mid-sized? The list of 7 doesn't seem to be all the cars I'd consider midsized.
The G6 is a world above what it replaced, I will give it that. GM needs to milk these results for all it can, and when the side bags become standard, that should make it into advertising.
Do you mean the Fusion? I am surprised at that too, given that it looks like such a competent car. The Focus is getting long in the tooth, I wouldn' be surprised if it wasn't up to snuff. My sister has a year or so old ZX5, I can't recall if it has side bags or not.
I think that list is missing quite a few, not just the Camcords.
>Why don't they give the same warranty as Kia or Hyundai?
Don't think GM can afford to do that. Even 60,000 would be chancy. Some models may hold up to 100,000 miles, but never 10 years, without some significant warranty expense.
The next five cars tested won’t cost you anything extra to get those side airbags. They come as standard equipment.
The $33,000 Infiniti G35, the 28,000 Acura TSX, and the even less expensive Hyundai Sonata all have good head protection. But because their side structures collapse too much Lund says there could be internal injuries. So all three are rated “acceptable.”
Love that first statement. Side airbags do not cost you anything on these vehicles. Think they are really free?
Yes, I meant Fusion not Focus. I wonder if they do more than one test on a car model. I wonder if random variables in the structure collapse cause things like the right foot instrusion on the Fusion to occur one time but not another. And too, in real life the oncoming car is not a planar surface pushing on the driver's side of the car; it's a group of different force-causing materials like the bumper, the soft front grill area, the fender's front edge. Collapse in a real crash is going to occur much differently.
Toyota does great. Lucerne and Solstice neck and neck for 9th. GM's minivans COLD (what do you expect!!) Magnum dead. Mercedes has no hot cars but is in the cold section.
Thanks for the personal attack. For your information, I am a CAREER engineer, and I try to make the best career moves possible.
Well it was a counterpunch to what you have been spewing about union members such as myself. Well as an american who cares about his neighbor I do respect your career choice. I don't want you to lose your job to someone in India, because your boss feels he can get the same level of performance for a 1/4 th of the cost.
Once again, the bosses may or may not be making an 'undeserved' salary. Just because the employees percieve it that way does not make it so.
Correct. Just like when a outsider, upper management of the company, or someone in a different profession, precieves a union member as being "quote: "overpaid" doesn't make it neccessary so.
Comments
Still I would like to give GM a chance, however they make nothing that I want to buy, besides maybe a Solstice. (Currently drive a 01 BMW 525i with 86k that has been pretty good though not perfect, but still feels brand new, and all the interior buttons, etc, looks/feel brand new)
GM- Please make your cars appeal to the young urban consumer ( I am 31, educated professional). None of my friends even want to think GM, the cars are huge.
why is a grand prix and impala, 10 inches longer then accord/camry and have no more interior space.
What's the point?
Why is the ION/Cobalt equally large, compared to the imports, w/o more space.
Why does GM have no rear wheel drive cars to compete with the BMW 3's and Lexus IS, sorry CTS is way way longer.
About the only GM car that interest me know is the 07/08 CTS, but there is no info on it, and I don't think I can wait that long..
sorry to rant, but I keep getting disappointed, though hope for the best.
Still I would like to give GM a chance, however they make nothing that I want to buy, besides maybe a Solstice. (Currently drive a 01 BMW 525i with 86k that has been pretty good though not perfect, but still feels brand new, and all the interior buttons, etc, looks/feel brand new)
GM- Please make your cars appeal to the young urban consumer ( I am 31, educated professional). None of my friends even want to think GM, the cars are huge.
why is a grand prix and impala, 10 inches longer then accord/camry and have no more interior space.
What's the point?
Why is the ION/Cobalt equally large, compared to the imports, w/o more space.
Why does GM have no rear wheel drive cars to compete with the BMW 3's and Lexus IS, sorry CTS is way way longer.
About the only GM car that interest me know is the 07/08 CTS, but there is no info on it, and I don't think I can wait that long..
sorry to rant, but I keep getting disappointed, though hope for the best.
I am in a (rented) Silverado this weekend, which rounds out my sampling of full-size pick-ups, and it is also DEFINITELY mediocre. And all my samplings were in rentals. The F-150 is pretty cool - tied with the Tundra for carlike-ness. The Ram is just so darn huge, I don't think I could live with one of those every day. Actually, the F-150 approaches that point too.
By contrast, the Silverado has a hard cheap dash and steering wheel, bounces all over the road when it's not loaded to the gills, and the half doors squeak all the time, making an incessant racket. It is the same age generationally as the Tundra, yet the Tundra is a much more pleasant vehicle to drive, and better over the road too, loaded or empty. At least neither wants for power when the bed is full. When the new Silverado comes in the fall, it had better jump about three steps forward evolutionally.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Ford dealers were the dealbreakers to me.. I had the Focus for less than 6 months... and while it had a couple of rattles it drove well.. but then I got this weird knowck in my rear hub..
The thing was I wouldn't mind it if stuff got fixed. You know.. I mean a mass produced car can have a nick or two ... no sweat.. but after 6 trips to the deler I just coudn't handle anymore them bringing the csr back with "could not replicate" .... so after the refused to fix the rear hub knock, I decided to cut my losses and get out of it.
And here is the catch for GM.. and good point for Ford.. while I considered other cars, I really liked the engine, and liked the whole approach to csars FoMoCo has..
And luckily I am not dependent on Ford, Lincoln and Mercury when it comes to FoMoCo cars.. so I went with Mazda.. if I has the money and wanted a plushier ride I can go with Volvo.. or Land Rover... or if I am swimming in money -Aston martin...
Ford lost me as a customer for nice long time.. but FoMoCo managed to keep me... Unfortunately, I do not see GZM having this type of "safety net" ... Maybe Saab, but even that is not that great of an option.
Ford Lincoln and Mercury make me excted because of their potential, and the potential of FoMoCO.. Saturn makes me excited because of Opel.. but the rest of GM is boring and out of the question, and none of them wil get my business, I just don;t trust them
Igor
Yes - but once again, several years behind
Ford in this revival. This isn't one of GM's strengths, as you stated. They always tend to react here. Come to think of it, haven't noticed GM leading the industry anywhere of late.
Or perhaps those with Odysseys which have a drumming sound they can't get rid of that allegedly will be engineered out NEXT year-(read it in Odyssey discussion here)- could need to do the same. or the Pilot (same car?) with problems do the same.??????
Somehow they're very forgiving of Honda, so far. But can you say Hyundai?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
good vehicle, If you get one on one of these big discount sales.
I agree. Nice ride, if you get one with family discount plan.
Otherwise,there are others who fit the bill, for less cash.
HHR: The only "suv/crossover" , etc, thing my spouse and I both thought looked decent enough to own for a few years.
Problem:
ROOM or lack of it!
Got into a model we would like,, with the sunroof. Zero headroom.
We got into the front serats, adjusted them for comfort, then hopped in the back seats, or TRIED to...and there is little ot no room. If we sat up front with our knees into our chests, yeah, you would have room in back.
Shoulder Room up front? Again, use the arm rests, have a coat on? you constatly are brushing up against each other, and nearly touching shoulders if you get your drink, for example, rom the cup holder(what gives here? Even the Kia Rio sedan has more shoulder and head and rear seat room!).
Chevy decides to maybe(Big Maybe...) do a mid-cycle freshen up, and add 4 inches of width,at leastm 2-3inches more headroom, and 2-3 inches of rear leg room(probablywould mean lengthening the whole vehicle, or lose a little of their cargo area in back).
Maybe they should make it (or knock down kit it) to their GM-DAT plant, in South Korea, and lower MSRP, increase HP and size!
Chevy needs tolook at Scion tC, add a 3 door hatch to that Cobalt(Cavalier rework), and more room, like I said about the HHR.
I'll buy another tC before a Cobalt, as the Cobalt is not very room.
How can the tC have soo much interior room, and the Cobalt feel so small(adds sunroof, folks...you'll see, BIG Difference in the 2, then, bith with sunroofs).
Chevy stuff just looks so" that was 5 minutes ago" looks.
Corvette is always a winner, but at 40-50K, it had better be.
That thing they have, 2 seat truck with corvette engine in it? Try one with say a small V8 from the Impala(303HP) instead, and 25K, and you might sell some.
It seems their stuff is either too small, too bland(some models), it is like they are "missing the trolley",lol. ;-)
Only thing I would consider rom Chevy is HHR, IF they ever improve it(super-size it, or at least, mid-sized sedan interior sized it).
Mostly the trouble is in lack of information of an average car buyer. Do you think most of them know that they should not buy first model year cars, or which model years had quirks?
They see an Accord (o whatever else) and melt in the hands of a salesperson..
Many of the things we assume are hard science are just a tag-along of the halo of a brand.
Somehow, because Toyota operated Scion, Scion is G-d's gift to worl and will have zero issues.. the xB rattlebox is a perfect example.
A brand's Halo is something that has nothing to do with present reality of quality and leadership.
Halo is usually about 10 years behind. that is why even though Camry lost HUGELY to other cometitors such as the Accord, Sonata and Fusion in many comparos, it is still the queen in buyers' eyes.. that is why no one cares about Scion issues. That is why it will take about another 5-10 years for Hyundai and KIa to be fully respected and their make not perceived as a handicap to the model at question. And that is why even if ford and GM started building class leading vehicles todaym, for another 10 years ,people would be avoiding them, because within the past 10 years they were crap.
Resale is all based on halo .. not at all on actual facts, unless some fact was SO HUGE that it perpetrated the halo, and that happens rarely.
Igor
I had a Focus and thanks to very bad dealership experience at every stop, and some buyers remorse (I wanted 5speed after all), I started to hate the car.. there was nothing wrong with the car.. but even a small rattle in the dash was a HUGE issues with me, becaue I was not overall joyful about the car...
Now with Mazda3 (I bought it CPO), within the 2 months I have had it, I had it in the shop 4 times, twice for somewhat major problems.. do I care? NO!!!.. the car is pure joy on wheels and fits my desires perfectly. I LOVE IT,,... heck even if the engine died on me (knocks on head) I would still love it...
If one is happy with their car even an engine relacement can be brushed off as a bad apple.. but if you have a car that you bought just because the price was right, and it does not personally excite you, even a dash rattle will make you miserable.
BTW that is why JD Power, Strategic Vision etc.. rankings are so meaningless.. they never specify what is MAJOR Issue...
Once again.. buyers and owners do not think rationally... car ownership is a gut thing.. and it stays as unpredictable as all other "gut" things.
Igor
I looked up the I-4(GS?), and test drove one. Nice.
More of a tourer with the automanual I-4. With the surnoof, they add contorls ot steering wheel(redundant radio controls, correct?) and 650watt stereo(if they only added the sunroof/conrtols, I could live w/o the 650watt stereo, andwould rather save the extra 500-800 dollars or whatever that system cost...).
Long story short, the I-4, for us, is attainable, but., No Leather available(V6. yes?). Plus, only 6 way seat adjuster, but thsoe were tolerable enoug, seats good enough, I could live with that.
What did ya pay?
It will be 3years or so more before we can do trade in(and not get taken)...and by then, the "2010" model(they usually do 5 year runs with each design...should be on last year of current run by late 09) should be out, maybe on sale?
Anyhow. sorry to prattle on almost in a nonsense manner.
If our 99 sonata did not start nickel and diming us to death a year before pay off(sept 04) and would haev lasted until sept 05.... that I-4 would most likely be in my drive.
Nice ride. Very nice.
There are about 15 eclipses inmy area. This is GM country. They give you the evil looksif you don't own ford or gm.
Anyhow, I have seen 4 susukis(forenza sedans, and 1 decent looking Reno, blue), 10 or so Hyundai, adn a few dozen Toyotas and Hondas(hardly any Mazdas, Kias, VW, Nissans).
Seems the top 5 foreign car makers here are toyota, honda,hyundai, and mitsubishi and now suzuki. Mitsu, have seen only 1 suv, and 1 or 2 lancers, rest are eclipses from 95-05(no new one's yet> probabaly a little pricey for this area, due to higher paying jobs/ shortages, etc).
In fact, even at the college I go by, not one Nissan. No VW's. 1 protege(mazda).
Seems the college people, though, are stuck on honda toyota.
see a few sonatas. that's it.
so, in the coutnry, it is "big3", at college, "big2-japan".
In between? mainly Big3, but a lot of these Toyota and honda, but Hyundai, Mitsu and Suzuki playing catch up!
Sorry to digress.
I dunno. It seems the dealerships act as if they could care less if they sell you a car or not(Big3) in my area.
That is one big negative.
The Chevy dealer has a big sign trumpeting that they've relocated to their new location, but really it's the same old Buick dealer with a bunch of Malibus crammed in the back.
It's sad to see it go.
Hyundai is hurting GM - in particular, Chevrolet. I read that the brands most cross-shopped with Chevrolet are Hyundai and Kia(!). For the most part, people buying Hondas and Toyotas (passenger cars and minivans) do not even look at Chevrolets anymore.
Chevrolet, Hyundai and Kia are the vehicular equivalents of Walmart (maybe that's the REAL reason that Walmart always pops up in any GM discussion), while Honda and Toyota have assumed the position of the lower-medium price brands (what Pontiac was in the 1960s) - a step up from the "mass market."
I felt they were getting Honda and Toyota sales with the older set. You indicate they're really taking Chevy buyers away. But in this area Impalas and Malibus are present as much as every. I do understand I'm in Western Ohio; your market may be (drastically) different.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The Silverado, Tahoe and Suburban must surely be sub-standard in your book.
How about the Corvette? Even the Z06 is mediocre? Gee. You don't think you might be over stating things just a wee bit?
You've just (unintentionally) summarized GM's big problem.
Yes, the Corvette is great, as are a fair number of the Cadillacs. The big trucks and SUVs are still pretty good considering their age, and, if the new Tahoe is an accurate indication, the next-generation of big trucks and SUVs will be a hit.
But GM can't survive on big trucks (especially with gas prices in danger of going up) and a few Cadillacs and the Corvette. It must effectively compete in the subcompact, compact, family sedan, crossover, small SUV and mid-size SUV market.
And GM's entries in those segments are mediocre.
There were once perhaps 1,500 car companies in America...all you are seeing is the end of a long, long line of attrition.
The reason was that mainstream buyers are the most conservative when it comes to styling. Cutting edge designs have never sold well, and tend to bomb in volume markets.
Consider the Tuarus. Introduced to crital acclaim in '86 in sold better than the Victoria LTD it replaced, but was a outdated design before it took the number 1 sales slot. The redign was critisized for being to conservative, but it held number 1 spot. Redesign 2 was radical (in reguard to styling), and it has beenhanging on due to recognition alone.
It's an SSR - and the first year models, (03?) had that 5.3L V-8 in 'em. They sold for abouty $55,000 then, with dealer ad-ons, but you can now get one of the new ones with the big engine for about $35,000. So, if you find a low mileage 03, the price should be just right for you, and yes, they are slick.
I agree with the rest of your comments.
Plymouth Duster. Need I say more. Moving through the years, not a lot changed for a long time. On the import front, you had the Toyota Crown Mark II in 75. Face it, the Japanese cars were reliable, but they were rattletraps and rust buckets well into the 80's. Economy was excellent, but they were a rough ride. Even an 83 Cressida, Toyota's top of the line, was terribly reminiscent of the Ford Fairmont in most respects of how it drove, was powered, and rattled. I've compared them side to side.
Eventually, I left GM and drifted off to Ford, which I think started to produce "some" better cars than GM in the late 80's, Taurus being one. Crown Victoria another. Lincolns were great in the 90's.
The Plymouth Duster was competition for the Vega and Pinto? The Duster was competition for the Nova and Maverick. Chrylser imported the Dodge Colt to go up against the Vega and Pinto.
The Toyota Crown Mark II? You would compare the biggest, most expensive Toyota of the day to the cheapest from Ford and Chevy. For Pinto/Vega dollars you were looking at Corolla's and 210's.
And as sad as this is, even with the Pinto being the most recalled car of the decade, it was one of the most reliable cars in the class.
And, yes, I would compare the Crown Mark II against the Vega and Pinto because size wise, equipment wise and price wise, they seemed most comparable to me. The Crown I looked at, had a 3 on the tree transmission, no A/C, was slower than the Pinto, and as stodgy as a Studebaker. I was laughing at the time. Who knew? Thought my Vega was hot! Well, it did run hot lots of the time, before the engine disintegrated.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Why don't they give the same warranty as Kia or Hyundai?
Also, I cannot believe that the new Chevy HRR has a solid rear axle with rear drum brakes and that GM still use the old push-rod engines in their FWD vehicles.
Comments?
This is exactly what one would have said, excluding the Chevrolet reference, back in the early '70s regarding Datsun, Honda, and Toyota. I cross-shopped, and directly A-B compared and drove a Honda and Toyota, but bought a Hyundai, not based on price or warranty, but by carefully driving and inspecting the cars.
As one who's been buying new cars for almost 50 years now, I assure you that Hyundai is the next coming of the Japanese brands we all hold in such high esteem. It's only logical if you've followed the historical perspective of all Asian brands. GM should be as potentially worried about Hyundai as they are Toyota.
As for the Pinto versus the Vega - I remember the Pinto as having a much nicer level of interior trim than the Vega, which really defined "bargain basement" in those days.
Plus, the Pinto was not known as a troublesome car. Too bad Iacocca didn't let the engineers spend a few more dollars on the fuel system...Ford would have been saved a world of grief.
Saving a few dollars up front often costs much more down the road...I don't think they've still learned that lesson.
Two cars did not have side air bags standard and were tested that way along with air bags, G6 and Fusion, and both will have them standard next year. Fusion did not do well on front impact, IIRC. I may also have pricing for IS and BMW 3 wrong but you get the idea...
Where were Camry and Accord when doing this testing? Or was the Insurance Institute just taking CR's word for those two?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
My inlaw has a 10 year old tracker(suzuki).
Not bad, 87,000 miles.
No major issues.
I had a 1990 sentra, xe, 9 years + old, and had 233,000+ miles. Dumped it due to major rust problems.
I got hit by 2 vehicles after 5years of ownership, and a deer . As you all know, after an accident, your vehicle is never the same, unless you own a body and repair shop, and maybe do the work yourelf, and pay good bucks to get it up to "new".
Anyhow, if I had driven my Sentra like my inlaws(minus the rust factor) tracker, about 8,700 miles per year, I'd still have that Sentra today!
I just am more impressed with Miles(and age of vehicle) and OME ,or have you replaced the tranny,etc...
Anyone can have a car for 25 years, if you only drive in 7-10K per year, do not get in a wreck(if possible), and keep up maintainence, no matter what the brand.
If your vehicle is 12 years old, and 300K... that is more impressive to me(especially if only maintainence items were replaced).
Not trying to be nasty here, but just saying what I have observed in my area the past 11 years since moving here.
Most people only drive 5-10K per year, and a few 15-20K.
I know of very few that drive over 20K per year.
My spouse drives 35,000 on avg per year.
I drive about 17-20K.
My neighbors drive 3,500 per year.
Who do you think will have their vehicles the longest, barring any accidents, or mechanical failure? Sure won't be the spouse, or me.
Take Care, And Not Offense.
Thsi was an observation(s) type of comment.
I guess if the G6 is duller than promised, but safe, that's not a bad thing. If the media can play it up (and yes, the supposedly liberal media was playing up the performance of a domestic car), it might garner some actual private sales.
I was surprised the Focus didn't pass the front test well. I would have thought Ford would have designed it as well as possible for those tests as well as the government tests.
Aren't the Accord and Camry mid-sized? The list of 7 doesn't seem to be all the cars I'd consider midsized.
Link to Dateline report http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11644173/
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Do you mean the Fusion? I am surprised at that too, given that it looks like such a competent car. The Focus is getting long in the tooth, I wouldn' be surprised if it wasn't up to snuff. My sister has a year or so old ZX5, I can't recall if it has side bags or not.
I think that list is missing quite a few, not just the Camcords.
Don't think GM can afford to do that. Even 60,000 would be chancy. Some models may hold up to 100,000 miles, but never 10 years, without some significant warranty expense.
The $33,000 Infiniti G35, the 28,000 Acura TSX, and the even less expensive Hyundai Sonata all have good head protection. But because their side structures collapse too much Lund says there could be internal injuries. So all three are rated “acceptable.”
Love that first statement. Side airbags do not cost you anything on these vehicles. Think they are really free?
Yes, I meant Fusion not Focus. I wonder if they do more than one test on a car model. I wonder if random variables in the structure collapse cause things like the right foot instrusion on the Fusion to occur one time but not another. And too, in real life the oncoming car is not a planar surface pushing on the driver's side of the car; it's a group of different force-causing materials like the bumper, the soft front grill area, the fender's front edge. Collapse in a real crash is going to occur much differently.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Toyota does great. Lucerne and Solstice neck and neck for 9th. GM's minivans COLD (what do you expect!!) Magnum dead. Mercedes has no hot cars but is in the cold section.
Well it was a counterpunch to what you have been spewing about union members such as myself. Well as an american who cares about his neighbor I do respect your career choice. I don't want you to lose your job to someone in India, because your boss feels he can get the same level of performance for a 1/4 th of the cost.
Once again, the bosses may or may not be making an 'undeserved' salary. Just because the employees percieve it that way does not make it so.
Correct. Just like when a outsider, upper management of the company, or someone in a different profession, precieves a union member as being "quote: "overpaid" doesn't make it neccessary so.
Rocky