General Motors discussions

dieselone

This was a '92 Saturn, so obviously that was a long time ago. Regardless, that is the only vehicle we've owned that burned what I'd consider to be excessive. I've talked to others that also had oil burning issues with the dual cam engine in the SL2 Saturns.

I've got 97k now on my Suburban and the only time I've had to add oil is during the summer when it's really hot out while running it hard towing our boat or camper. Even then it would be around 3k miles before I've have to add a quart.

62vetteefp

The issue is that this is not a defect in any type of warranty perception. It is like the gap is off in a door to fender interface. If it is tight at top and open at the bottom and nothing can be done w/o messing up the rest of the gaps around the door and hood to fender they are not going to do what is done to show cars which is to add material to the fender to even up the gap.

If nothing can be done they are not going to buy back the car for a issue like this and I can guarantee that no BBB is going to do anything about this. A transmission defect is and will be covered.

obyone

I agree with 62vetteefp while the dealer's reply may frustrate you, if it is a design issue they really don't have much options available other than going out and buying that $5 part and installing it for you. Then again it may cause more issues which is something they will not get reimbursed from the manufacturer.

If indeed your trans or motor blows within the warranty period, I have no doubt it will be covered unless of course it was caused by a lack of maintenance.

obyone

Since this was in '92 it would be hard to speculate. GM has had issues with oil consumption. So much so that they have a specific procedure to determine and measure your oil consumption. Course I'm not sure when this was implemented and I agree that 1 qt per 500 miles sounds more like you have a leak somewhere.

At that level of consumption you wouldn't have to worry about oil changes since the equivalent would be 6 qt per 3000 miles rather just change the filter.

fintail

Geez, my fintail burns a bit less oil than that, and when it is hot it can let out a smelly little blue puff of smoke. Normal range? I wouldn't think for a modern car.

dieselone

It didn't smoke or leak. If you drove it on long trips consumption was less, but as my wife used it at the time (on a college campus) lots of fairly short trips, it would use a qt. every 400-500 miles. We had to do the weekly check in at Saturn for them to monitor usage. It avg. about a qt. per 500 and they claimed it was in the normal range.

dinof

Well, on page 10 of the 2007 Saturn New Vehicle Warranty
Booklet, it states that issues such as paint, trim or appearance
defects are also covered by the warranty. I would consider
this a trim and appearance defect.......if nothing else; and they
should be obligated to cover it . Really, it is also a materials
and workmanship defect. ( Page 3 of the warranty booklet ) .

dinof

You all need to read message numbers 97 and 98 under the
topic " 2007 Saturn Aura Defects " . Look at the BS other
dealers are handing out about this defect to potential buyers.

imidazol97

There is no group 2007 Saturn Aura Defects. When I search for it, it doesn't come up.

dinof

Sorry....the Group is called:
" Saturn Aura New Owner Reports"

tlong

I complained in a post a few months back about Lutz's comments where he basically whined to the press about the potential CAFE standards changing and how GM wouldn't be able to build certain cars if the law changed. I didn't see his attitude as showing the type of leadership that I'd expect from a very highly paid executive at the world's largest car company.

Well today I ran across this article about Ford. Now GM is doing much better than Ford and putting out much more competitive products. But Mulally says that Ford is absolutely going to make it happen. No complaining. I like that type of attitude:

"Our commitment is to improve the fuel efficiency of all the vehicles no matter what the size"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071203/ap_on_bi_ge/more_mpg_4

Given that not a lot has been done since the big OPEC wakeup call in the 1970's (except by Toyota) regarding fuel economy, AND given that my 1985 car got 40 mpg on the highway, this seems pretty modest to expect 35mpg 13 years from now!

62vetteefp

gas at $2.85 today. Wish they would make up their mind. What am I going to buy?

62vetteefp

He (Mulally) was commenting with the latest rules which are obtainable with the trucks. The big four all had the same comments 1 month ago. They could not build trucks and SUVs with the regulations that were proposed. All four were making the some comments, even though Lutz may have been the most vocal. The regs approved yesterday allow full line makers to survive and build all the vehicles we the consumers demand/desire. A full line manufacturer will now not be hugely penalized by building trucks. They can build cars to compete with cars and trucks to compete with trucks. Yes trucks will become very expensive but at least the car side can remain competitive with car only manufacturers.

Here are the same type of comments from GM:

There are tough, new CAFE standards contained in the energy bill before Congress that pose a significant technical and economic challenge to the industry. But, it's a challenge that GM is prepared to put forth its best effort to meet with an array of engineering, research and development resources. We will continue our aggressive pursuit of advance technologies that will deliver more products with more energy solutions to our customers."

http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gm- news/viewmonthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=3&docid=41777

bumpy

or OPEC's?

chuckhoy

I had a 96 Saturn SL2 and I had to add a quart between oil changes at about the 2000 mile mark. It did leak a little oil, but the main culprit was the way the drive chain was lubricated. Many cars back then used a belt and that did not require lubrication because it was naturally flexible. A chain would need to be lubed by oil (think chainsaw) otherwise it would bind. Saturn used the engine oil to lube the chain so it would tend to use more oil than a belt driven car would typically use. Something must wear on the device that regulated the amount of oil used to lube the chain because it would start to use more oil over time. Couple this with the natural tendancy of cars to burn oil as they get older and the Saturns would run low faster than other cars.

This had a good side effect in that it got me to regularly check all the fluid levels in all my cars on a regular basis. Now, every weekend I check the oil, wiper fluid, coolent, tire pressure, etc... in both cars. It takes about 15 minutes, but it is well worth it. You can avoid many problems just by checking fluid levels.

sls002

I don't think so.

62vetteefp

Article on vehicle pricing of the Malibu.

interesting comment by Edmund's in Fortune.

Adds Toprak: "When you sit inside the top-of-the-line Malibu, it is like sitting in a $45,000 Lexus."

http://money.cnn.com/2007/11/30/magazines/fortune/taylor_pricing.fortune/

louiswei

Apparently Toprak has never sat in a $45K Lexus before...

I sat in a top-of-the-line Malibu in the LA auto show and it doesn't remind me anything other than a top-of-the-line midsize family sedan.

chuckhoy

Care to elaborate?

cooterbfd

Is that a good thing?????

dinof

I guess Chevy isn't using the same rocker panel design as the
Saturn Aura ; even though they are twin vehicles built in the
same Kansas factory.......or, no one has noticed the rocker panels as yet, if they are still hanging a piece of ill fitting plastic
on, and calling them rocker panels.
Hope that Chevy was smart enough to redesign that area.

62vetteefp

I guess Chevy isn't using the same rocker panel design as the
Saturn Aura ; even though they are twin vehicles built in the
same Kansas factory.......or, no one has noticed the rocker panels as yet, if they are still hanging a piece of ill fitting plastic
on, and calling them rocker panels.
Hope that Chevy was smart enough to redesign that area.

They are the same design. I just think no one will ever care about it.

dinof

I guess your right. You can't expect BMW quality for Chevy and
Saturn prices . Oh well, live and learn. You get what you pay for.
Low price.........Low quality !

chuckhoy

If it drives you this insane and bothers you this much, why did you not notice it when you test-drove it? If it is not noticable at any other time other than when the door is open and you are staring at the bottom of the door, how big a deal is it? I think that if this is the biggest complaint you have about the car, you have little to complain about.

dinof

I didn't notice it because the panels did not begin to separate until the car had aprox. 2800 miles on it. You sound like some others that have commented on here................you want me to
enter and exit the car thru the sunroof so that I can say I have
no defects. I'm concerned that these panels will completely fall
off after my warranty period ends . After all they are only held on with 5 plastic clips and the separations are becoming longer
and wider daily...!! Guess I'll stop talking about it on the Forums
since no one here seems to appreciate quality workmanship.
If this was your new car.......would you complain or just get in and out through the sunroof ? :-)

chuckhoy

Maybe if they are about to fall off and break, you should sit back and wait a few months and then... ahem... help things along a bit.

What I saw in the photo looked nothing like an imminent part failure. It looked like a gap that nobody can see unless you point it out.

Again, if this is the biggest complaint...

sls002

don't know much about Saturn engines - but:
If your engine has a chain driven cam, then I am reasonably sure that the chain is enclosed inside the engine so that any oil used to lub it will return to the oil sump (or the bottom of the crankcase). One reason for using rubber belts is that they can be put outside making the engineering cheaper.

So, if your Saturn is using oil, then probably the problem is one of many possibilities, but probably not because it is sending too much oil to an outside chain. I could be wrong though.

dinof

Thanks for the advice. If you get a chance , you need to go
to the group called " Saturn New Owners Reports " and read message numbers 96 through 100. Look at some of the BS the
dealers are telling prospective customers. They know they have a defect but really don't care about the customers. There are
plenty of people out there that do not know about this problem
and will buy the cars......................so the dealers just sit back and wait for suckers like me. Now if this same problem starts to
occur on the 2008 Chevy Malibu.........GM might start taking some
action, or else their new generation cars will all go to Hertz.

gsemike

Dino, I think that you have a legitimate beef. This shouldn't be happening and is likely to get worse. You shouldn't be expected to live with it and it is indicative that Saturn may still have a ways to go.

62vetteefp

Look at some of the BS the
dealers are telling prospective customers. They know they have a defect but really don't care about the customers. There are
plenty of people out there that do not know about this problem
and will buy the cars......................so the dealers just sit back and wait for suckers like me.

I went and read the posts you mentioned. Here is what I found:

Steelerman: I have an 07 Aura XR with ~3500 miles and I just went to my garage to look at the underdoor rockers. I opened all four doors and inspected each one carefully and I did not see any gap between the plastic rockers and the threshold.
How large of gaps are you seeing? More than 1mm? Maybe you should try another dealer or maybe contact Saturn Customer Assistance.

dinof: If you are not seeing any separations, then your vehicle was
probably repaired by the Retailer prior to the sale.
This problem is also showing up on 2008 Auras. It is a manufacturing defect

Steelerman: Thanks for the pics and after taking a second look at my car, I have the same thing going on.

In this example the guy, after looking where you told him to could not see a problem in the area. After looking at your photos he now sees the issue. That is how bad it is. You have to look at photo to see what is wrong because it is that unnoticable.

There is one more person who noticed the problem on their vehicle and he did not seem to be that worried about it but did think it could get worse.

Good luck with BBB.

dinof

Well................thank you, sir. Finally, a person that understands
acceptable workmanship, even if a car doesn't cost $50,000.

Appreciate your support.

dinof

I see you did not mention messages 98 and 99 where the dealer
speaks to a customer.

62vetteefp

98 was a non owner. He did the right thing and before shopping visited this site and looked for issues. He read yours and when he pointed out the gap to a salesmen the dealer gave some bull answer about driver error.

So that is the 2nd person who has read your post and then looked for it. I see no one coming onto the site and complaining about the issue unless it has been pointed out by you to them before hand.

I am going to quit here. Good luck on your arbritration

louiswei

Personally I applaud dinof for pointing out the defect here on the forums so other current owners and potential buyer could have a chance to acknowledge the problem.

Being a car owner myself (not Aura) this is the kind of information I wish to receive from this place once a while. All fairy tales could get old really easy...

dinof

Thanks for the good wishes. But I have to say, you sound
like a car salesman. People don't usually notice problems
unless they pop out in front of them with a red warning light.
Most buyers are not even aware about Edmunds; so you
will not see a lot of complaints on here from ordinary
customers.

The fact that the Saturn salesman gave this potential buyer
a line of BS about the defect, means that he was already
AWARE of the problem and was doing his best to try and
dismiss it.

dinof

Thank you sir for your support. I agree that this site should be
one that attempts to point out defects that may not be noticed
by the usual customer. Even I did not notice it until the car
had 2800 miles on it and I was washing and drying it by hand.
It IS a difficult defect to see ,( in the early stages of separation ), from certain angles.........so you
really do have to know where to look.

sls002

62vetteefp is a GM employee and takes umbrage at any criticism of GM. There is an interesting editorial in the latest Automobile (January issue) on this.

dinof

Ahhhhhhh.......I think I read that article..........was it called
"Blind Faith.........For Some People, Brand Loyalty Trumps
Everything Else " ?? Thanks for the info. Just for the record,
my 2nd car is a 1998 Buick Century and I have had no complaints about it to date.

62vetteefp

Ex GM employee. Took a buyout a few years ago. I take umbrage against criticism that is not founded on fact. Please try and find anyplace where this is not true.

imidazol97

I visited my Saturn dealership today. I hoped to see an Astra but they aren't in yet. I did look at the Aura in the showroom and it did not have a separation between the rocker panel and the car body. There was a slight opening between the front and rear doors.

It seemed as if it's tightly held to the car body somehow. I didn't get on the floor and crawl under to how it is held in place. But we can't say that it's a common problem.

dinof

Well folks..... I will probably have to stop talking about my problem on here very soon. The decision of the BBB Arbitrator
should arrive any day now !! Whatever the decision, I still think
that Saturn is obligated to repair my car under warranty.
Although it is not a performance or safety issue, and according
to the Saturn Warranty it does not have to affect safety or
performance; it definitely is a materials/workmanship and
appearance issue !! All mentioned in the 2007 Saturn Warranty
Booklet. I will keep commenting until I receive the decision.
Thanks for all the support...............even from the Ex-GM employee !

rockylee

Well good luck !!!! I hope you win your case and the rest of your ownership experience with the Aura, is a pleasant one.

-Rocky

dinof

Thank You !

gsemike

"I agree that this site should be one that attempts to point out defects that may not be noticed by the usual customer"

I usually just come for the inflated gas mileage claims (ha ha)

dinof

Thanks for your observations..................that " slight "
opening between the front and rear door (At the B pillar) is
where the problem usually starts. Believe me, it will get worse
after the car is on the road a while.

bumpy

So, I'm poking around for the drag coefficient on the 2008 Malibu and happen across this page, and it says that the 2008 Malibu LT doesn't have an air filter for the HVAC system. How the hell did that happen?

dinof

Neither does the Malibu's twin, the Saturn Aura !! You get to breath all the fresh outside air you can stand !! :sick:

wtd44

...a car that doesn't have one of those phony rip-off cabin filters to contend with!

lemko

...but where is the cabin filter? I've had cars with them but never bothered to change them. Are you supposed to change them?

dinof

I've changed the cabin filter on my 1998 Buick a few times over the years. On that car the filter opening is located under the winshield wiper grill and it's a [non-permissible content removed] to change. But when I took
the old one out, it was loaded with pollen and bugs..............so
I guess they work .

The Toyota Camry has one that is easily changed from inside the
glove compartment.