General Motors discussions

bumpy

My Mom came close to buying a 1980 LeMans. She had a '75 before that, and wanted to stay with Pontiac. However, she ended up with a 1980 Malibu instead. Same car, but probably about $150 less, but back then that was enough to be the deciding factor.

And with that, Pontiac had no reason to exist anymore except as dealer (and factory) filler.

andre1969

And with that, Pontiac had no reason to exist anymore except as dealer (and factory) filler.

Well, the car was still different enough looking that at least it gave you some choice. Some people may have preferred the Malibu's style, while others preferred the LeMans. In the long run though, the Malibu was probably the better choice, as Pontiac's engines weren't so hot back then. The Chevy 229 V-6 was more durable than the Buick 231, although the Buick engine did have more torque. Something like 190 ft-lb, versus 175 I think, for the 229. Dunno how much difference that really made though.

I don't know how true this is, but I've also heard that the LeMans suspension was just a little stiffer than the Malibu, so it handled a bit better, although it probably didn't ride as well. I think Consumer Reports made note of this. And the LeMans had a slightly nicer interior. There was a trim package for the Grand LeMans, forget what it was called now (LJ or something like that?) that was downright luxurious for a car in this class, and as far as I know, the Malibu had no equivalent. It probably put it at about the same level as a Century Limited or Cutlass Supreme Brougham...although again, there was still overlap.

lokki

I wonder if any Pontiac Engineer or Manager had the good taste to resign or retire over the Daewoo LeMans.

For me, the first time I encountered one was a watershed moment in my perception of Pontiac, and it seems like it's the same for some others here.

After I saw that I knew that Pontiac, as I had known it in my youth, was "dead to me". There would be nothing particularly Pontiac about any new models after that - it was just a grill treatment and a logo.

It must have been hard for the Pontiac boys from the 60's who were nearing retirement about that time..... a bitter, bitter pill, that Daewoo.

andre1969

but I wouldn't mind having one of these...

benjaminh

Loved that wagon from 67.

Any pix out there of a 1969 Pontiac Catalina Safari Wagon? That was my first car. Had a nose like pretty much nothing else ever built. And was it huge. Unbelievable. 9 passengers, and you probably could have squeezed in 11 if the people got real cozy and included some kids.

andre1969

I couldn't find a good picture of a Catalina wagon, but here's a 1969 Bonneville for sale. I had a 1969 Bonneville 4-door hardtop from 1992-1996. The car was a piece of junk, but more the fault of its previous owners plus a lightning strike, than any fault of GM. Sometimes I wish I still had that car. It was roomy and comfy, and for such a big car, it accelerated, braked, and handled great. I got rid of it because I was going through a bad marriage at the time, and had to start letting go of various money pits. Got rid of the Bonneville in February 1996, and got rid of the wife two months later. :P

uplanderguy

I love the '60's big Pontiacs; especially '65 and '66's. They were nicer than a Chevy and had larger engines and different transmissions. I can't think of a more beautiful, functional instrument panel than a '65 Grand Prix or Bonneville with bucket seats...the console that extends up to meet the center of the dash; the great woodgrain and grab bar; the center-mounted gauges housed in chrome housings that were tilted towards the driver. Magnificent. That's the only dash I like better than a '64 Studebaker Gran Turismo Hawk dash with full instrumentation.

Bill P.

benjaminh

That is a wagon!! That's my car, down to the *exact* avocado green color. Oh my gosh. Thanks for the memories, Andre. That car was a dream and a nightmare all rolled into one...

andre1969

Thanks for the memories, Andre. That car was a dream and a nightmare all rolled into one...

Funny you'd say that, because so was my Bonneville! Now granted, the thing was 23 years old when I bought it, and I paid a whopping $400 for it, and, well, you get what you pay for I guess. It performed beautifully, at least in that rare moment in time after it fired up without eating a starter or solenoid, but before it overheated. And it was a car that was ugly, but beautiful, at the same time. If that make sense! :P

iwant12

That was one sweet ride for its time. I had a '73 Grand Am, pretty much like the the car in the pic, white with the orange stripes, but sans the shaker hood scoop and louver side windows. It had the burgundy interior, too. That car had a lot of guts under the hood, and surprisingly drove well in the snow! Wish I still owned it; thanks for the memories.

Regards,
Dale

berri

That's the only dash I like better than a '64 Studebaker Gran Turismo Hawk dash with full instrumentation

Now that was a nice looking car inside and out.

The 65/66 full sized Pontiac did have one of GM's nicer instrument panels, but I really liked the one on the 63-67 Stingray. But GM put out some clunkers too. I think it was terrible how that nice looking 67 Impala got such an austere and cheap looking dash. However, starting around the mid 60's Ford really put out some cheapo looking ones.

The 56 Ford had a decent dash for a basic car in its time. Mopar put out some nice, and some extreme instrument panels from the mid 50's - mid 60's.

Its funny how so much emphasis is put on car exteriors, but often so little is made of the interiors you actually sit in and see while driving!

lemko

Like this? Pontiacs were CLEARLY a step up from Chevrolet!

bumpy

All it needs is a wet bar, a humidor, and some scuzzy guys wearing gold chains. :sick:

andre1969

All it needs is a wet bar, a humidor, and some scuzzy guys wearing gold chains.

Fine then if that '65 isn't to your liking, then have a virtual stretch-out in my '76 Grand LeMans instead! :P

xrunner2

Looking at hood and fenders, that is probably a 65. Too bad we can't get cars today that have those quarter vent windows.

Tach on console was poorly placed, out of line of sight and was an afterthought.

fezo

Take off the roof rack and paint it burgundy and you have what I learned to drive on. Had that car through 1972.

lemko

I love a fine cigar and a Manhattan, but gold chains aren't my thing. I still think that '65 Bonneville 'vert has a beautiful interior.

bumpy

That's actually not horrible. It has that '70s GM "we just don't care anymore" vibe, but it's not trying to give me an STD like the green one.

tomica

It took a 1976 Plymouth Volare to get me to swear off American cars but my 1963 LeMans came close. I bought this 6 year old used during my college years. Had to have that halfa- 389 rebuilt with in a few months and when the Corvair automatic started acting up, I cut my losses and bought a 1964 Bel-Air. The only good thing I remember about it was that it drove great in the snow. This LeMans was a very attractive gold and white coupe. Pretty on the outside but ugly on the inside. My wife has since owned two new 6000s. One needed a paint job after 2 years and the other, a loaded SE wagon just rusted out around her. I have better memories of my 1962 Mercury Comet. American car companies brought this mess on themselves.

lemko

...a 1963 LeMans would have that Trophy 4 (half a 389 V-8) with the "rope drive" and transmission in the rear?

andre1969

...a 1963 LeMans would have that Trophy 4 (half a 389 V-8) with the "rope drive" and transmission in the rear?

Yep, that's it. The transmission was very similar to the Corvair's transmission, but shared very few parts. In 1963, they made a "326" engine optional. It actually displaced 336 CID that first year, and put out 260 hp. I imagine that must've been a pretty good performer, but I wonder how the rope drive and transaxle held up. Hopefully they were beefed up!

lemko

I imagine Pontiac did away with the Trophy 4 and the rope drive/rear transmission by the 1964 model year. That's when GM's "senior compacts" became intermediates. Land Rover used the small 215 cid V-8 from the Buick Special for years after. Didn't the Buick Special also offer a V-6? I swear I saw an ad from 1961 touting a V-6 for the Special.

tomica

When you wanted to check the tranny fluid, you had to climb into the trunk and remove some bolts and a plate to reach the dip stick. Wished mine had that 326. Those 4s were terrible.

andre1969

Yeah, when the '64 intermediates replaced the '61-63 compacts, Pontiac ditched that slant-4. They replaced it with a 215 CID inline-6 that was an enlarged version of the Chevy 194.5. Buick had a V-6 in the '61-63 range, but I can't remember its diplacement. I want to say around a 198? It was replaced in 1964-67 by a 225 CID V-6, which was replaced in 1968 by the Chevy 250 inline-6.

Buick sold the tooling to Jeep, but then in the 1970's bought it back. They enlarged it slightly to 231 cubic inches. It had the same bore as a 350 V-8, so they could both use the same pistons.

I think the F85 used the 225 V-6 in '64-65, but then switched to the Chevy inline-6 for 1966.

hpmctorque

The rope drive, and possibly the transaxle too, may have only been for the slant 4, and not the V8.

dave8697

I ordered a new 1978 Firebird Formula with a 350 4bbl and 4 speed manual. Blue with camel interior. It stickered for $6350 and I was getting it for about $5800 with rally wheels and a/c. When it came in about 6 weeks later, I'd priced insurance and couldn't get it. They gave me back my deposit because they had a list of people who wanted it.

I saw the car for years cruising on US1 in Lake Park and Riviera Beach, FL. It was a one of a kind. Finally, in 1988, I got a White Formula 350 for $200 under invoice. It had 55 more HP and an auto. With $3k off sticker, it was still more than 2x the price of the '78.

uplanderguy

Believe it or not, that's not a tach, it's a manifold vacuum gauge...as if anyone was concerned about fuel economy on a '65 Bonneville or Grand Prix!

If you got a factory tach, it was an add-on looking thing sticking out from the left-most part of the speedometer. I like the looks of the 'vacuum gauge but not the optional tach on those cars.

Bill P.

uplanderguy

What color was the 6000 that needed a paint job? Was it silver? Seems like silver never used to hold up. In two years, it should have been a warranty job, right? Also, as long as I can remember...at least back into the '90 model year if not before...GM's rust-through warranty was 6 yrs. and 100K miles, right?

Bill P.

andre1969

Also, as long as I can remember...at least back into the '90 model year if not before...GM's rust-through warranty was 6 yrs. and 100K miles, right?

Those warranties cover rust-through, but I don't think they covered paint. They'd try to blame it on the weather, the sun, acid rain, or whatever. You actually had to have rust through, as in, a hole in the sheetmetal, before they'd do anything.

And yeah, as I recall, silver was the worst, although all of those metallic colors faded pretty quickly back then. My Mom bought a new 1980 Malibu, in light blue. It was about 7 years old when she gave it to me, and it was pretty badly faded on the hood and roof, and getting marginal on the trunk. The sides still looked good, though.

But then those non-metallic colors seemed to hold up forever! My '79 5th Ave is a 2-tone creme/beige, while my '79 NYer base model is midnight blue, both of them non-metallic. And both of them are still pretty shiny...although the paint is oxidizing. My '85 Silverado is a non-metallic red with a white roof and lower body, and it's still fairly shiny...although again, it is oxidizing.

They have definitely come a long way with paint quality though. My uncle's '97 Silverado is a metallic teal/greenish color, has never been garaged, and he's not that religious about washing or waxing it. It's still nice and shiny. Or would be, if it got washed! And my 2000 Intrepid is that dreaded silver, yet after 9 1/2 years, it's still nice and shiny. Well, with the exception of a little battle damage here and there!

tomica

The 6000 was an 1984 in Dark Blue. Started fading around 1986. Long Pontiac in Framingham MA would only go 50/50. So she took it to Maaco. That was even worse. My Volare was Silver and it was horrible too. That one had rotted fenders replaced under warranty in 78. They've been painting cars for at least 75 years, should have had a handle on it by then. For the last 25 years it's been Japanese cars for me (Toyota (2), Mitsubishi and now Mazda).

egkor

Well let's see.

If I were interested in a Saturn Outlook XE FWD ...

If I could find a new 2008 model, then I could get $2500 off of $29360 (MSRP).

For a new 2009 model, then I could get 0% financing but would have to pay MSRP.

IMHO these incentives are not good enough even in good economic times, even less so in the current economic climate, and with low brand confidence.

Saturn/GM, give me a better reason to rush out and buy one of these.

-Gary K

mp67riv

My dad had a 63 LeMans, which he bought after his brother had such good service from his 63 Tempest. Both had the 4 cylinder engine. Never had any problem with the rope drive, but dad never got the gas mileage that his brother got. May have been 2bbl versus 4bbl carbs.

Later Pontiacs in the family included 63 Bonneville wagon w/ bucket seat interior, 69 Executive wagon, an 72 Grandville coupe. Also various 68 Firebirds, and numerous Trans Ams including 70, 76, 77, 83 and more. My cousins still rebuild and race T/As. Since late 80s, daily drivers have included 83 6000STE, 88 Bonneville SSE, 89 6000LE, 92 Bonneville SSE/SSEi, 94 Grand Prix, 01 Bonneville SSEi, and various last generation Firebirds. I enjoyed my STE and Bonneville SSE, although the 01 was not as sturdy as the 92. Problems like leaking intake gaskets and defective steering shaft kept creeping up in the 01 - seems to have been a GM problem rather than Pontiac specific. The 89 6000LE was also a solid car, and GM took care of the repaint (dark blue) even though the car was out of warranty.

Pontiac seemes to be moving in the right direction in the late 80s early 90s, given the constraints of the times. Between 84 and 89, Pontiac saw a resurgence in its sales. The STE and SSE were fun cars that got good reviews and in my experience, were relatively trouble free. But Pontiac seemed to lose its momentum by the mid 90s, and many of its new products were just ok. Too bad the magic of the great Pontiacs of the 60s will never be recaptured...

stever

"While General Motors filed bankruptcy on Monday, so, too, did its Saturn Corp., in a move that seems to set up Saturn for a buyer and, perhaps, to first cull its dealership network."

Saturn Files Separate Bankruptcy; Loses Lawsuit to NJ Dealer (AutoObserver)

hpmctorque

As you've read, General Motors is being divided into the so-called "Old GM" and "New GM." The old GM consists of brands (Hummer, Opel, Pontiac, Saab and Saturn) that will be sold or shut down, and assets that will be disposed of. The new GM will be comprised of the four surviving brands, Buick, Chevrolet, GMC and Cadillac, plus the plants and other assets that will emerge from bankruptcy.

Despite the numerous plant closings, some argue that the automotive world still has excess capacity, relative to current and foreseeable demand. If that's true, we haven't seen the end of mergers, acquisitions, alliances and even bankruptcies in the auto industry around the world.

How do you assess the prospects for the new GM and domestic auto production in this tough environment?

bumpy

The "new" GM is run by the same bozos who ran the old GM directly into the ditch, then set it on fire trying to roll the window down so they could climb out. :sick:

gagrice

Same bozos running the show and the same thug mentality UAW that will strike the first chance they get. Even if GM makes a miniscule profit the UAW will strike to take it away from the tax payers that now own GM. There should be a no strike clause unless GM has paid back its debts and is making a minimum 5% net profit. That profit should be derived from the US market share only.

Then they have to come up with vehicles people want to own not just rental trash.

nortsr1

I personally think it will be several years until we know the answer to your question.

stever

Maybe GM won't tell us how they are doing anymore. I understand the sentiment, and it might even help GM get away from the short term quarterly reports driven planning engine, but the CFO stuck his foot in his mouth:

"GM CFO Ray Young told the media that thanks to its now-bankrupt status, GM technically is a private company - and as such is not obligated to make available the same depth of corporate financial information as are public corporations.

In a conference call with media and analysts Tuesday, Young said GM was deciding how much of its financial information would be made public, but it likely wouldn't be as all-encompassing as public companies are required to report."

GM Scrambles to Clarify Financial-Disclosure 'Tude (AutoObserver)

bryan23158

I did put up a rather opinionated post on another thread about GM. But GM has been nothing more than CHEVROLET for years. Now that there is some individuality coming back they are dropping the brands...Olds ( few years back), Pontiac...etc. So strap in for more drab, dull cars.

They'll run it into the ground just as before....try to force feed you cheap made, European cloned cars just as before. But now you'll have less of a choice in style. It'll all be foreign made shortly. And we have ourselves and greedy corporations to blame.

"New GM"....just call it Chevrolet and get it over with.

bvdj84

I totally agree!! Bad economy or not, the company would have eventually been pushed to the max. Making too many duplicate cars...etc..blah blah blah....

Downsizing..... focusing on quality, detail, build. Then you'll slowly build your reputation back. But, it will literally take years for this to all happen. People are not too forgiving either.

Personally, I will not buy a GM car. No thanks.

andys120

This could be really interesting, The Captain (as Roger Penske is known in the racing world) does not often fail at anything.

link to article.

tomcatt630

The Ponitacs that really brought in the bacon in the 60's were the Catalinas and Bonnevilles, along with the other trim names [Star Chief, Executive]. The performance/flashy image helped sell Pontiac family cars and station wagons. #3 make]

But, then Olds stole Pontiac owners and claimed #3 in the 70's, and then we know the rest.

Also, 1960's car designs were simpler. Too many times, when GM would bring out new technology, buyers were the testers for all the bugs to be worked out.

stever

Didn't know about Penske's nickname.

So, will we get a Saturn Tennille one of these days?

andys120

Didn't know about Penske's nickname.

I guess folks who don't follow racing don't know that he's called The Captain but IIRC the handle precedes the fame of Daryl Dragon and Toni Tennille. I had a conversation with a sales guy at one of Penske's many dealerships. He was an experienced, knowledgeable guy but hadn't heard his boss called the "The Captain" either.

A little inside knowledge for your next visit to a Penske facility. :shades:

stever

Maybe the Captain will keep it together.

/badda boom.

"Immediate plans call for dropping the Sky roadster, leaving the Aura, Vue and Outlook as the only showroom offerings. Penske, looking to make Saturn a global automotive company, understandably would like more vehicles for the brand."

Saturn Likely To Be Bought by Penske Automotive Group

stever

Edmunds' Michelle Krebs got an exclusive:

"What's most attractive to Penske about Saturn is with the 3.5 million consumers who have bought Saturns, most of which remain on the roads,

"It's not often you get to go into a business with a ready-made customer base," he said. "My vision first and foremost is the 3.5 million consumers already driving Saturn vehicles. They are validation of the brand and the work that's been done over last 20 years. Their loyalty to the brand will be key to our success going forward."

Penske: Envisioning Saturn as a Global Motors AutoObserver)

stever

"What's most attractive to Penske about Saturn is with the 3.5 million consumers who have bought Saturns, most of which remain on the roads,

"It's not often you get to go into a business with a ready-made customer base," he said. "My vision first and foremost is the 3.5 million consumers already driving Saturn vehicles. They are validation of the brand and the work that's been done over last 20 years. Their loyalty to the brand will be key to our success going forward."

Penske: Envisioning Saturn as a Global Motors AutoObserver)

tomcatt630

"Pontiac ditched that slant-4."

Wasn't the Iron Duke 4 banger the same design as the 'Trophy 4'? Was better than the Vega motor at least.

berri

Unfortnately, I think Pontiac lost most of its differentiation and mojo by the late 70's. The later year standouts were usually just Chevy clones. Olds Cutlass took over the intermediate trade while Buick LeSabre became the big car name.

tomcatt630

Well by 1986-87, the Cutlass was in decline after selling huge numbers from 1980-84. The W body version never sold as well as the RWD Cutlasses. [And the Cutlass Ciera was just riding the name's coattails, most just called it 'Ciera']

Pontiac had an ID crisis in early 80's. It had boxy look-alike crushed velour sedans, trying to be Olds/Buick, and the new for 82 F body, really overlapping the Camaro, not as unique as the 70's version. Also, they put so much effort into the Fiero, it hurt them in long run.

The W body GP didnt get going until the '97 re-skin, but by 2004 model, was older than the hills.