Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

displacedtexan

Does anyone really care about the Mazda and Volvo based sedans that have debuted the past few years?

Since you asked, I care. I happen to like the conservative but practical Five Hundred and Montego. I think the Fusion and Milan look good. I hope Lincoln does the MKS right.

I care because I don't want to see Ford and Lincoln out of the car business.

m1miata

Yes, people do care about Mazda. The Miata is a very good convertible, if you fit in those narrow seats. Seems the latest one has more narrow seats, and I really don't fit in the new car. The Mazda6 and 3 are good handling FWD cars. If I was looking for a FWD car, Mazda would be on the list. The Milan is nice looking car based on the Mazda. Fusion and Milan are selling. Are they Lincoln quality? I somehow don't see them as a Lincoln at all. As for Volvo based Montego, it looks like a value to me, if that is your thing. Not a sports sedan, but for size, drivability, safety, in a more formal looking pleasing enough style, it is something people should care about. It is not for me perhaps, but I do see the value. Hope the parts are half those of a Volvo. Your question was do people care. In this case, I do believe not enough do about this car. I don't think it is selling all that well.
-Loren

rockylee

We are "2" peas in a pot on the Lincoln MKS subject.

Rocky

explorerx4

good questions!
if am/jag are sold, i guess ford would put the money where they think they need it most. where that is, i don't know.
it still leaves some friction from volvo for lincoln.
GM does not have 'in house' competition for cadillac.
foreign nameplates still have a perceived advantage of domestics, not just referring to cars.

ehaase

Since you asked, I care. I happen to like the conservative but practical Five Hundred and Montego. I think the Fusion and Milan look good. I hope Lincoln does the MKS right.

The public does not care, however. In October, sales of the Five Hundred, Freestyle, and Montego were 6,010, 3,297, and 1,508, respectively, compared to 7,915, 6,707, and 2,016 for October, 2005. The cars are flops, and I happen to like the styling of the D3's. I don't think that there are huge numbers of buyers sitting around, waiting for the 3.5L V6 next year.

Sales of the Fusion, Milan, and Zephyr/MKZ were 9,908, 2,229, and 2,288 in October. Sales of GM's Epsilon trio, Malibu, G6, and Aura,were 9,886, 11,273, and 4,661, respectively. Nissan sold 14,761 Altimas. Honda sold 23,645 Accords. Toyota sold 33,812 Camrys. The public doesn't seem very interested in the CD3 triplets either.

I am a lifelong Ford fan, but I grow more pessimistic by the day. If Ford went out of business, I think that only Mustang fans and businesses that the Super Dutys and Econolines would be upset.

ehaase

Yes, people do care about Mazda. The Miata is a very good convertible, if you fit in those narrow seats. Seems the latest one has more narrow seats, and I really don't fit in the new car. The Mazda6 and 3 are good handling FWD cars. If I was looking for a FWD car, Mazda would be on the list. The Milan is nice looking car based on the Mazda. Fusion and Milan are selling. Are they Lincoln quality? I somehow don't see them as a Lincoln at all.

My issues is not with Mazda, but with the Mazda based sedans now being sold at Ford. I think I showed in my post above that the Fusion and Milan are not selling well at all.

While we're on the subject of Mazda, the new CX-7 was its second most popular vehicle last month, selling 4,272. Most every other Mazda declined in sales. The 3 sold 5,987, compared to 8,241 last year. The 6 was down to 3,865 from 5,092. The MX-5 sold 1,020, compared to 1,236 last year. The RX-8 sold 640, compared to 1,212 last year. The 5 was up to 928, from 92 last year.

heyjewel

Here in California I see more new Camrys in a day than I've seen Fusion + Milan + Z in a year. And 500/Montego? A very few. They are the epitome of BORING. They're practically invisible. That said, supposedly Ford is going to 'freshen them' and if that results in more exciting looks, along with putting the 3.5 V6 in them, they may actually begin to sell. They seem to be fairly functional vehicles.

I think GM has a tremendous upside with it's new Epsilons. The Saturn Aura looks to be a huge hit, and the G6 has already proven to be. The Malibu styling is rather unfortunate

m1miata

Do people actually like the Inch Worm styled G6? I do see some on the road, though often wonder if they are rentals. The coupe is not too bad looking. The side profile of the sedan, and overall presence does little for me. Sort of looks like a worm inching his was along. The Aura is not a bad effort, though having the real deal, Opel may be more impressive. Evidently this is another G6 which looks like an Opel. Ah, but without the electric assist steering! Basically, it has better looks and handling, and thus something worth considering, if looking for a FWD with decent looks. Nothing to get overly excited about. The Malibu is excellent, if we were talking 1969 :shades: Using the name on the current models is an insult to a once fine model. If GM, Japan, and Korea are having success now in selling boring looking cars, how many more will Ford sell? Time for special looking cars.
-Loren

heyjewel

"Do people actually like the Inch Worm styled G6"

Apparently they do. Look at the numbers in ehaase's post. GM sold almost as many G6s as Ford sol Fusion and Milan put together.

fintail

Must be lotsa people in Missouri and Texas buying these...I almost never see a privately owned one out here.

explorerx4

it' been noted before that the max mex capacity is about 200k vehicles for fmz.

nvbanker

"Do people actually like the Inch Worm styled G6"

Apparently they do. Look at the numbers in ehaase's post. GM sold almost as many G6s as Ford sol Fusion and Milan put together.

The G6 has now replaced the Taurus as the most popular rental car in the country -

ehaase

it' been noted before that the max mex capacity is about 200k vehicles for fmz.

But insiders on other boards say that Ford could add another shift if demand warranted it. Demand doesn't warrant it.

jimlockey

Down the drain. Lincoln doesn't offer anything. All their vehicles get poor mileage.

[Deleted User]

Malibu will be renewed for 2008 (and the Malibu Maxx is going away). Malibu was part of the conservative, careful updates the US was thinking was the reason for Toyota's success (like 500/Montego). It was out well ahead of the Fusion, and unfortunately, Chevy took the Ford road (consumer clinics, focus groups), and ended up with boring.

However, Chevy doesn't intend to stay with an iteration for eight years (like Ford planned for the 500, the Jaguar S-Type, etc.). This new Malibu will be competitive with the Fusion. I do hope Ford has a revamp of the Fusion already in the works. Nothing can go eight years anymore between major redesigns and stay a best seller.

explorerx4

i could be wrong, but i thought it was running 3x8 shifts.

explorerx4

i convinced my mom to buy an '03 malibu, but it has been boring since around 1972.

akirby

But insiders on other boards say that Ford could add another shift if demand warranted it. Demand doesn't warrant it.

How do you add another shift to a plant that's running 24x7? Do you have a time machine?

Fusion rental sales are around 10%. Care to guess at the rental sale % for the GM cars?

heyjewel

Well, the GM % must be higher but that's because Ford just GAVE the market to them by:

1) Cancelling the Taurus and
2) Saying they were going to do everything in their power to PREVENT the Fusion from becoming a rental car.

More brilliant manuevers from a dying company?

akirby

More brilliant manuevers from a dying company?

Actually, yes. Building cars that nobody wants to buy at retail and dumping them into rental fleets or selling with huge incentives kills profits and resale values and gives people bad impressions. Putting the Fusion in rental fleets in small numbers is good advertising because there are people who would never set foot in one otherwise. But putting too many would be suicide.

GM was selling those rentals before Ford said they were pulling out. Not sure which one but one GM sedan that was selling well had over 40% rental fleet sales.

Commercial fleet sales are another story - Ford isn't walking away from that business because it's still lucrative and doesn't impact retail sales.

jae5

Thanks.

It took a while for me to catch up to the board, spent way too much time in the GM sections. Anyway, I thought those questions weren't really asked and was curious to what the board members thought.

It appears many here have good ideas/answers; unfortunately they don't translate to Ford-ese I guess. Meaning, it would seem common sense should rule the roost @ Ford, they they read boards like this and actually listen to consumers, like myself, you and others. But nope, too much like right I guess. I had hoped when the LS first came out FOMOCO was finally taking Lincoln seriously again. The LS was a good entry-level lux piece, being as 3-series, ES/IS 300 competitor. But as usually it was left to whither and die as the F150/Nav/Expedition & Excursion were catered to. A d*mn shame as the vehicle could have been the start of a major direction to revamp the car line. I was hoping for another hot-rod Mark like the VII LSCs with the HO 5.0, still one of my favorites (behind the late-50s Mark IIs).

One can only dream I guess.

jae5

Not to mention D-L shifter,

They're STILL using that thing? Geez, I can't stand that!!

What are they trying to do, bring back the old Powerglide days?

Looks like Ford/Lincoln are missing the finer details.

akirby

The D-L shifter was put in for the CVT tranny but wasn't changed when the CVT option was killed, probably for cost reasons.

In case you haven't been following the news, this mentality of building to a price with beancounters deciding which features were in or out are over, according to Fields and Mulally. They say the future is adding content and features to justify higher prices and meet consumer demands.

'Bout time.

m1miata

Yet actions speak louder than words.

-Loren

m1miata

Could be two peas in a pot. Hard to find but two amongst the rest which are cooking. I think you meant two peas in a pod. Though I may have made an inaccurate assumption.

I do like the looks of the MKS though the Milan is not too bad. All three are yet another adequate FWD car, with a bit more style than the appliance crowd. Now if the Lincoln or even the Milan was the standard Ford, perhaps people would be more interested. Sell the car in the $21K to $25K range, with a V6. The Lincoln, first of all is not a Lincoln, and secondly is overpriced by $5K+.

akirby

What, exactly, do you think they've had time to implement? You don't change a shifter 4 months before a vehicle is scheduled to debut. Fields made side airbags standard on the Fusion after the test crash issues. That didn't require any engineering.

You won't see results until maybe the 2008 models at the earliest. The point is the mindset is different and that's a big step in the right direction.

akirby

Overpriced compared to what?

heyjewel

"I had hoped when the LS first came out FOMOCO was finally taking Lincoln seriously again. The LS was a good entry-level lux piece, being as 3-series, ES/IS 300 competitor. But as usually it was left to whither and die "

You're talking my language here:>) Gotta correct one thing though, the LS was a 5-Series competitor. A wee bit bigger than the 5 actually with handling equal to or better than.

Many of us had high hopes for the LS as well. In fact there was a core group of a couple dozen of us, me included, who met several times with Lincoln product planning and engineers to give them personal feedback about where we might like to see the LS go. They seemed to listen and some of them even seemed to care and agree. However, business is business and 2 dozen enthusiasts can not a car save. The coffin was built in 2003 when they dropped the stick shift option. And we all know the car was buried this past summer.

Now Lincoln competes with Buick, maybe Oldsmobile in the not-too-distant future. I own 2 Lincolns, but there's nothing they make now or are planning that interests me in the least.

rockylee

Loren,

Talked to the owner of the 1990' 7-UP Mustang about 45 minutes ago. I'm going to pull the trigger on it tomorrow and send him the money. I will take all kinds of pics of my new baby when I get her. He has made shipping arrangements already.

I couldn't be more excited. :shades:

Rocky

P.S. Rollin' in my 5.0-Vanilla Ice :P

grbeck

The Edge. I'm not seeing any compelling reason to purchase an MKS over an Edge...and I want to Lincoln to succeed.

m1miata

In its class, overpriced compared to Accord, Azera, Camry, Aura, Milan, for starters. Out of its class, price is near to Cadillac CTS. But I suppose in today's world not too expensive.

m1miata

Great cars for a lifetime, no doubt. Plenty of after market parts. And it is a good looking Pony. Have fun! Beware the Texas ice, you spoke of.
-Loren

rockylee

Loren, thanx. This car won't be driven more than once every few weeks in the summer. It will only see sunny, warm days where top can be down and will have her own stall of three in my new house I'm building. So she will never see anything that resembles ice. The 7-UP car was a childhood dream car, and my aunt bought hers in 1990. I was 11 years old and thought I was the coolest kid on earth riding in the back seat with the radio up, riding back to Salt Lake, from Jackpot Nevada. It was my first time to my great aunts new McMansion. I remember stopping for some site seeing along the way. I got to see the historical markers for the Bonneville Salt Flats, and as I was put on video via cam cord I wanted that Emerald Green beauty to be behind me at all times as I was receiving pictures of the Salt Flats. I guess I wanted to brag to my buddy's when I got home, which BTW I did. Ford and Lincoln, back in those days were on top of the world. The Fox Body Mustang convertible was a big seller and a babe magnet. I hope someday Ford will do another 7-UP car color combo for the new stang.

Rocky

displacedtexan

I do like the looks of the MKS though the Milan is not too bad. All three are yet another adequate FWD car, with a bit more style than the appliance crowd.

The MKZ is a nice-enough car, but it's not really a Lincoln. My LS is a Lincoln. The MKS might be a nice car, and I hope Lincoln indeed doesn't let the bean counters decontent it as akirby says, but I don't see much Lincoln styling heritage in it, and with a turbocharged V6 and FWD it is not a flagship. That would have to be a decent replacement for the Town Car.

I won't reiterate what nvbanker has said elsewhere about what Lincoln needs to do, but he's spot on.

explorerx4

LOL! I remember the powerglide. no wonder that shift doesn't look so unusual to me. maybe it's one of those retro looks that didn't work out too well.
my sister's prius only has forward and back. :surprise:

explorerx4

i love those 7-UP stangs. can't wait to see the pictures.
... word to your mother.

scootertrash

For a while, I wondered what post #1000 would be.
That's not exactly what I what thinking.

How'z about them Lincolns, Huh?

explorerx4

every board allows some license in posts. i'm happy for rocky. you too, right?
how about this? why is the fact the mkz is based on a mazda 6 platform, a fine handler, such a big deal? lexus bases their es/rx models on a camry, a pretty average platform.

rockylee

Sorry it wasn't exactly about Lincolns, but at least it was about a Ford product. I did mention Lincoln, in the post.

"How bout them Lincolns" Well the MKZ, MKX, Navigator are all new for 2007. Well The MKZ, is slightly newer than the Zephyr. I guess all will succeed from the looks of it. I guess we've talked about the MKS, enough it's like kicking a dead horse, until we get some facts. The MKZ, is rumored to get a 3.7 in 2 years. The Navigator won't get a significant upgrade until the hurricane engine comes along. The Lincoln Mark LT, is a disappointment as it's a rebadged chrome cl added, upscale leather, F-150. Where the THX surround sound system ? I briefly went through the option lists of both the Mark LT, and Navigator and to my surprise Lincoln, didn't upscale the Gadgetology of the LT, to Navigator levels. My question is WHY ? Better Leather and Wood isn't enough. If I wanted a leather upgrade package, I could go cowboy and get the King Ranch edition which their are several rolling down the roads here in West Texas in 1/2 and 3/4 ton trucks. The MKX, I can't comment about since it's not a vehical I'm not very interested in. However it did get some Gadgetology, and should sell well to the Trophy Soccer Moms. :P

That about covers it doesn't it ?

Rocky

P.S. scootertrash-If I had a "Ford" forum I would of posted it there....

My last post regarding the 7-UP:

The 1990' 5.0 7-UP Fox Body Mustang I'm getting only has 2,320 miles on it and is a rare 5-speed. It looks brand new and the original owner still owns the car. I promise to post pics on my carspace page as soon as she arrives. If you have any more questions shoot me a e-mail

rockylee

Thank-you explorerx4

Rocky

akirby

What the heck does the MKS have to do with the Edge? Or were you confusing it with the MKX? From that standpoint I agree that the extra doodads on the MKX might not be worth the extra $5K, but I'll have to drive both before I decide.

I know, I know - the letters suck.

akirby

The 2007 Camry may come close, in features as well as price. But not the others. Assuming we're talking about the MKZ. It has more power than all but the Camry and lots of features the others don't have like heated and cooled front seats.

If it was really overpriced they wouldn't be selling them in 19 days with minimal incentives.

explorerx4

only 2320 miles? Wow, that's low for any car, even a lincoln. my '91 stang has about 32k on it. i thought that was low miles.

rockylee

Gotta agree with you. 19 days sure isn't long on the lot.

Rocky

rockylee

You will find demo Zephyrs with more miles on em'.

Rocky

rockylee

First Drive: 2007 Lincoln Navigator L

The Navigator gets all up in its own grille

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=117518?tid=edm- unds.il.home.photopanel..1.*

Rocky

rockylee

http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061113/AUTO02/611130320/- 1148/AUTO01

A good read....

Rocky

m1miata

Depends on the output. Perhaps we are talking a low production vehicle. It looks OK I guess, so people will buy it. Like people have said here, most people do not know the difference between FWD, anti-lock brakes- stability control or most features. They just buy something which looks rich and has a name. Lincoln is not all that bad a car. Can't say it is not something for some people to consider. Comes into an crowded field of players though, being FWD based car. For AWD, I think I would go Subaru or Audi. In the Ford line, I best dollar value may be the FiveHundred AWD. Slooooow selling, I bet discounts on last years models will be good ones.
-Loren

m1miata

I thought Lincoln was a car company. Looks like they are a mini-van maker like Chrysler now, and a SUV selling company with Lincoln badges on those trucks -- whoopie. And a truck, oh my ! Just the thing I look for in car museums are Lincoln trucks / vans.

Yes, I know, The Cayenne Porsche helped save the day financially.

rockylee

I beg to differ Loren, the MKX isn't a minivan. The MKX, is a luxurious cross-over utility vehical or also referred to as a CUV, which has become one of the hottest segments in the auto market. :P

Rocky

P.S. Agree with your comment on the Mark LT, Ford could of done more with it !!! :mad: