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Afterwards there was a brief round table of financial type talking heads on Fox news. Amoung the questions put forth by the moderator Cavuto was "Do you think in 5 or 10 years that one or more of these 3 American car companies will be gone?" EVERY ONE of the panelists said YES. In addition, some expressed the opinion that that would be good for America because Toyota would take over and they are bringing jobs TO the USA while the Big 3 are moving jobs OUT of the USA.
I am truly ashamed of the people that have run the BIG 2.5 into the ground and that includes in a HUGE way the UAW. There is no more free lunch for these people yet they still hang around with their hands out. One of the Detroit stations followed some UAW "Workers" to a bar where they hung out for 4 hours WHILE THEY WERE PUNCHED IN. Think the Nissan workers in Smyrna get away with that?
The BIG 2.5 say that they spend more money on health care than on steel in the average car and truck. Unreal.
I have NO health care. I was offered Cobra when they kicked me out to bring in 2 engineers off the boat. Know how much that is for a family of 4? Try almost $1900 a month. Sure, I can afford that with no job.
Emm Kay My Big Fat A
here is my perspective on some of the financial woes of the 'domestic' auto manufacturers; those health care benfits they gave workers long ago, along with medical advances, have helped them live much longer than anticipated. now they have to pay pensions longer and pay for higher cost medical expenses longer too.
i'm not going to condemn a vehicle for that.
My only point was that, as I understand it, there seemed to be a predominance of Expy rollovers with Wilderness tires...whether Ford was wrong to underinflate by 6 psi, or the tires were simply bad, I do not know...
Obviously, if much fewer rollovers of other brands exist, then driver error becomes the obvious reason...I understood that the Expy/Wilderness combo seemed to have more than just a simple statistical increase in occurrences...
i had firestones on my expedition and swapped them due to the recall. they looked perfect to me after being taken off the rims. i was happy to be able to put on a set of pirelli scorpions for free. :P
i traded an explorer with 50k on it for the expedition. the firestones had plenty of tread left on them. just my experience.
Firestone admitted the tires were faulty. Case closed.
Now...where is Ford taking Lincoln?
OK, enuf of this. As long as all the lawyers got rich, all's well in the system of AMerican jurisprudence.
If you haven't read this week's autoextremist, I urge you to do so. You'll find him having a little fun with what Horbury said last week, mentioning the newest hit in the auto world (the Jeep Wrangler 4 door) and even praising Ford's 'Bold Moves' ad campaing (well, he can't be right ALL the time can he?). But the big news is his small take on the 2008 CTS which he really likes and the BIGGEST news is that Chevrolet will have a real RWD Impala in 2009 and the AE guy thinks it will be a blockbuster hit. ANd who is that going to hurt? Fraid so.
SO we will have come complete full circle by then. GM will have hopped on the successful Chrysler RWD bandwagon while Ford will be trying to sell it's FWD boring-mobiles. I am sorry, but it looks worse by the day.
Hmmm. I can easily imagine the following scenario:
Older gentleman pulls up to the Lincoln dealer, gets out of his Cadillac DTS, complains to the salesgal that Cadillac doesn't make his car anymore, that Cadillacs are all rap-star cars now, and he won't buy RWD because it snows three days a year. He was going to buy an Avalon, but the Toyota dealer was a jerk. The salesgal directs him to the front-wheel drive Lincoln MKS. Sold.
Except, who said the DTS is going away?
I wonder how the Azera is selling. I guess is the Fusion is a Lincoln, a Korean car can be Luxo ride. :P OK, just kidding. Both cars are actually good enough, while the Azera, on paper, looks like the deal. Or better yet, luxury used, as you can buy a Cadillac FWD really low, as in mid 20's in a couple years time. That may be the deal or the steal.
-Loren
Not so fast, jimlockey. The Lincoln trucks get lousy mileage, but not any worse than their same sized competitors. The MKZ and the Town Car get excellent mileage, and for it's size, the Town Car gets better mileage than anything else in it's class. It'll get you 20 in town, 27 on the highway. Try that in a.......Cadillac?
I've tried an Azera, and while a "nice little car", it's not even "near luxury" IMO. So, it has a little plood in it, and leather seats. Good rear seat room also, it's not very luxurious. A Camry with leather seats is about as luxurious.
I guess some of us have to blame somebody else but the 800 pound gorilla, holding the wheel of the ship.
Rocky
I operate a Limousine service and dont want a client to have to climb over a seat to get out. i need some help???
Email me directly at hissteps4u@comcast.net
Rocky in 08' :P
My guess is that there are long lines to apply for jobs at those non-union plants across the US of A. This may have the UAW worried. There are plenty of people that have worked hard for a third the wages provided for union or non-union auto workers. No one ever said it is the hardest, nor the easiest - least skilled or most skilled jobs in the world. It is however, like all jobs, subject to change over time as to amount of wages, and numbers employed. Things change, and to that we all should agree. A checker in a grocery store made more money years ago before the advent of the auto-scanner. Union or not, those highest wages (adjusted) are not coming back. It will never seem fair to those first to have to adjust to change. This is human nature.
-Loren
P.S. there is no Big 3, as Chrysler is wholly owned by DamilerChyrsler of Germany.
I was wondering why you think nationalising healthcare is the solution? I think healthcare costs are sky high because tehre is too much colusion in the ehalthcare industry. This, allong with insane lawsuits is probably the reason.
All we have to do is look at japan and europe to see that nationalising healthcare is wrong (IMO), and I am not saying anything bad about your POV for suggesting it. If we nationalise heathcare, basically monopolise it, then we will be taxed higher, and have to pay the difference. We will have less money for cars and stuff :P
This is why the USA is the toughest market. We have low taxes, so the consumer has more purchasing power. I think the boneheads in washington need to "baby bell" the ehalthcare industry, and make sure they really do have competition. Look at India, they can sell the same pills we can for 10 cents on the dollar. Remember that case a while back b4 we first went to Iraq?
If we are not careful we will nationalise healthcare, and then the cost will go up and service down. What singer/writer lived in England but then left to the USA in order not to give birth in an English hospital? W/E the point is that IMO the problem is lack of oversight in the healthcare industry and lawsuits that are together porking all of us.
Sorry, back to cars
Well they got rid of over 40,000 employees and had to hire temps like my step-dad and aunt to fill the jobs at $14 an hour with zero benefits at Delphi and at GM, it's $19 an hour with Zero benefits. Some temps have been doing these jobs for over a year. So the cuts have taken place by cheap american labor, that the union has given the company's.
Jobs bank is ridiculous and has caused companies to overproduce vehicles leading to big incentives and terrible resale value.
Well from my understanding that the jobs bank is all but gone with nobody on them. I suppose some are waiting for their transfer which they are given "X" amount of time to do so they can prepare to move and sell their home.
It's the overhead of keeping employees on payroll unnecessarily, keeping plants or shifts open that should be closed and the company having to pay way too much for healthcare
Well if you want to look deeper at waste, then look at the corporate side also. You have a half dozen secretary's for one suit at GM. It's not just the union side that has cost overhead. I honestly believe if our government did a better job of protecting american buisiness's the jobs bank would be moot.
(no reason the employees can't pay $100/month and $25 per visit for healthcare like the rest of the country).
Perhaps. I pay $123 a month with a $10 dollar co-pay. The thing of it is just be glad your tax dollars won't have to go to support these retirees in the future. There are approx. 60 million uninsured people in this country, and when they go to the ER, think about how much that costs.
The rest of the country doesn't neccessary all have high insurance costs. There are still plenty of folks including many I know whom have full company paid insurance, or only pay a small portion as part of their fringe benefits package. I suppose Ford and GM, Chrysler make the news about it because of their finacial woes.
Rocky
Protecting American business from competition is what you mean...and it would be a disaster for consumers.
Good grief, GM and Ford haven't exactly been revamping their model lineups with lightning speed in the face of transplant competition.
Imagine what they would be offering us if they (and the UAW) were protected from foreign competition.
The small Ford would be an updated Pinto that costs $35,000, made by UAW workers pulling down $200,000 annually and going on strike at least twice a year.
GM and Ford are investor-owned companies that exist to make products that people want, and thereby turn a profit. By doing this, they can offer workers good jobs.
They are not social service agencies designed to offer lifetime employement to blue-collar and white-collar workers.
Another point to remember is that the production goal of any manufacturing company should be efficiency. That means making more products with FEWER workers (both white- and blue-collar) and LESS materials and money.
Efficient companies survive and thrive.
Yep, I would !
The Sonata,Camry and Accord are made in USA.
The car would have to have "X" amount of domestic content to avoid a tariff. Just assembling a car here isn't good enough. The camry for imstance has enough domestic content 80-90% to avoid a tariff. I guess you could argue the accord at 65% has just enough to avoid one also ?
The Lincoln MKZ being made in Mexico, is the only thing I dislike about the car.
Prices on cars are pretty much level, as in getting what you pay for. I guess, if a $33K price tag on the baby BMW3 cars is not enough, you could tariff the car and Americans could pay more.
The problem isn't with the Europeans as it is with the Chinese and Japanese, which some reports suggest as much as a 40% currency manipulation by both of them. So that means Japan can sell a $23K Camry and make the same profit as GM, if they sold the same car at $27K. Loren, is that fair ?
Would not be a wise move. I don't see Japan cars coming in at low prices to kill off GM. Matter of fact the Saturn Aura at $20K with a V6 is the price leader over the rest. Will it sell over the Camry and Aura?
That is moot. GM, has to still find cost cutting measures to be that competitive and yes the platform shairing has helped reduce costs. However for the bottom line of developing individual platforms it's just not fair.
My guess is that there are long lines to apply for jobs at those non-union plants across the US of A. This may have the UAW worried. There are plenty of people that have worked hard for a third the wages provided for union or non-union auto workers. No one ever said it is the hardest, nor the easiest - least skilled or most skilled jobs in the world. It is however, like all jobs, subject to change over time as to amount of wages, and numbers employed. Things change, and to that we all should agree. A checker in a grocery store made more money years ago before the advent of the auto-scanner. Union or not, those highest wages (adjusted) are not coming back. It will never seem fair to those first to have to adjust to change. This is human nature.
-Loren
P.S. there is no Big 3, as Chrysler is wholly owned by DamilerChyrsler of Germany.
So are you suggesting we not improve our country ? Just stay the course as president Bush likes to say. I personally think we should be a world leader in wages and taking care of our people. Instead we are selling them down the river and have told the CEO's like that of Ford, it's up to you to stay competitive. We aren't going to protect you from the worlds advantages in wages, healthcare, currency manipulation, etc. So the CEO's are left with a decision to make which includes more #1 out-sourcing, #2 closing up all togeather, or #3 move the whole company over seas or across the border. Most CEO's choose #3 as a way to survive. The one who pays is the american worker, and the local buisness's that developed from the company being there.
That's the way I see it. I didn't want to get in a debate about solving domestic problems.
Now how bout them Lincoln ?
Rocky
Rocky
I guess that depends on how you see it. If you are one that only cares about price while your fellow american loses his/her job, then yes your buying power will be greater with cheap imports, and the Chin-E class of cars will give you more bang for your buck than Ford, or GM, could ever offer you. Your fellow american losing his job, eventually catches up with your sector and lowers your wage and benefits. History proves me right.
Sorry, back to Lincoln
Rocky
Yes, it's a start...to inferior care.
National care is fine for routine stuff (regular checkups) or simple procedures (setting a broken limb, for example).
But just try to get a kidney transplant if you are over a certain age, or come down with cancer and need expensive treatments, or need complicated open-heart surgery. Then it's not so nice.
The truth is that UAW members and retirees receive a much higher level of health care than what Europeans who depend completely on the nationalized systems do. The dirty little secret in many countries with nationalized care is that people either purchase supplemental insurance to receive the care they want (even after paying high taxes to fund the national health care system) or use influence and pressure to receive better care from physicians in the national system.
Sorry, but this country cannot affort to extend UAW-level benefits to everyone.
rockylee: The easiest thing to do right now is get the currency manipulation solved. You would see a instantanious results for the domestics, since the Japanese, would be more on par with expenses with GM, Ford.
Every country manipulates its currency, including the U.S.
And the advantages of the Japanese go far deeper than cost. For starters, they are not as totally dominated by finance people in upper management. Honda, for example, requires an engineer to be in top management.
And the factories are run with much more discipline, too. The absentee rate in the transplant factories is 2 percent. In Ford and GM factories, it is over 10 percent. This costs GM and Ford hundreds of millions of dollars a year.
Honda and Toyota are better run, more disciplined companies, from the factory floor to the executive suite. That advantage won't go away even if all countries (including the U.S.) stop manipulating their currency.
If people "only care about price," then please explain why they are snapping up Hondas and Toyotas and BMWs and Benzes, which are all MORE expensive than comparable Ford and GM products.
The "workers are losing their jobs to cheap imports" theory falls apart upon a close examination of the facts.
And the Chinese connection is a red herring. China does not export vehicles to the U.S. at this time. UAW workers are not losing their jobs to Chinese-made vehicles.
rockylee: Your fellow american losing his job, eventually catches up with your sector and lowers your wage and benefits. History proves me right. We are seeing a major decline in wage growth and benefits that have been taking a back seat for years now.
Rocky, most people don't make union wages or have union-level benefits. So the idea that because that wages are declining because of weaker unions is false.
Here in Harrisburg we have many WHITE-collar employees who don't make what UAW members make.
rockylee: We have some americans, that are so angry that it hasn't happened to the UAW, workers and it seems to me they wish the worse for them which I find really sad. Instead, we should wish the best for every hard working american, so he and she can have a productive, rewarding life. I thought that was the american dream ? I guess that is no longer true.
Nobody wishes ill will on anyone...but with the survival of GM and Ford on the line, I'd suggest that the "business as usual" attitude shown by the UAW isn't appropriate.
And, no, people aren't going to choose a Cobalt over a Civic so that UAW workers can sit in the Jobs Bank or never make a meaningful contribution to their health care expenses.
Honda and Toyota are better run, more disciplined companies, from the factory floor to the executive suite. That advantage won't go away even if all countries (including the U.S.) stop manipulating their currency.
If GM, and Ford, had government gifts from Japan, they to also could be even more competitive, instead they get a tariff slapped on there import. :sick:
You also need to realize the Japanese, people won't buy american goods because of WWII. I guess we are more forgiving ?
Rocky
That has more to do with how hospitals allocate costs than with whether we should nationalize our entire health care system.
rockylee: When all the manufacturing base leaves this country, I guess the youth will look forward to using there $100K Mc Degree from the local small college to be an assistant manager of car detailing at the car dealership
But all manufacturing isn't leaving this country. Witness the new plants that either have been built or are being built by Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, BMW and Mercedes right here in America.
For that matter, even the steel industry when through a rebirth on a smaller scale after the collapse of Bethlehem Steel.
Manufacturing is evolving and changing, becoming more efficient, but it is not dying out in this country.
rockylee: If GM, and Ford, had government gifts from Japan, they to also could be even more competitive, instead they get a tariff slapped on there import.
Americans seem to be restraining their appetite for Ford and GM vehicles. Do you really think that the Japanese want them?
Well in the Japanese car case you get more car for the money. If you have the choice to buy a $25K Chevy Impala, or a $25K Toyota Camry, you are going to buy the Camry because you get more features, better quality materials, etc for the same money and the Japanese made a mininum $3-4K extra profit than GM, because of currency manipulation. They also have a government that supports its workers in Japan, with national healthcare, which takes the burden of the employer. In the U.S. they are non-union and with all the tax breaks they have gotten over the years they have have been able to build new modern plants, and can fire you whenever you get old and not as productive with no strings attatched. the Tax breaks alone take care of most of the healthcare costs they provide only because of the UAW's presence. You being a former union guy, I'm surprised you can't see through the smoke and mirrors. :surprise:
BMW's and Mercedes, are speciality cars for the well off in this country. They don't focus on volume, but on profit margins. They build great quality cars at big price tags, and they are able to absorb there union costs in Germany, which is easier to do because they don't have to pay for healthcare.
Next Question:
The "workers are losing their jobs to cheap imports" theory falls apart upon a close examination of the facts.
LOL, are you serious ? The textiles, furniture, autoparts, small engines, pharmaceuticals, have went south across the border or over sea's to get the cheap labor neccessary to compete. Watch Lou Dobbs 6 p.m. ET, to see where they once were (U.S.) and where they are now. I think my theory hold alot of weight with facts.
And the Chinese connection is a red herring. China does not export vehicles to the U.S. at this time. UAW workers are not losing their jobs to Chinese-made vehicles.
Again are you serious ? Whattabout those Chin-E Buick Lucerne's being made in China ? Why couldn't they make em' here and export them to China ? That is a loss of potential jobs and could of wiped out a good number of evil job bank users. Cadillac, is beginning to sell it's whole line-up over there this fall. They are selling them (Lucernes) for over $42K in China, which is more than they are here using UAW labor. Ford is following suit.
Rocky, most people don't make union wages or have union-level benefits. So the idea that because that wages are declining because of weaker unions is false.
Well the non-union workers don't have a contract and are left with what ever the company gives them at any given momment. Hewre in recent times for lets say the last 6 years the non-union workers have gotten the screws, and are jealous that union workers have the right to bargain and want nothing but the worse for the union workers. They look at it if I have to suffer, so should they which I find really sad.
Here in Harrisburg we have many WHITE-collar employees who don't make what UAW members make.
Well who's fault is that ? These are the same folks that despise unions because they are trying to bring up the standard of living in this country, and fight against foreign workers here on visa's or illegals that are trying to take mine and your jobs out from under us. When they are faced with either taking a cut in pay + benefits, or being replaced by a new college grad or foreign worker willing to do it for 50% cheaper then they are upset at the world.
Nobody wishes ill will on anyone...but with the survival of GM and Ford on the line, I'd suggest that the "business as usual" attitude shown by the UAW isn't appropriate.
The buisness as usual attitude ? What ? They have allowed GM, Ford, Chrysler, to hire temps to fill the jobs with a low wage of $14 at Delphi and $19 at GM/Ford, with zero benefits. That's buisness as usual ? They are also allowing Delphi to shutter 21 out of its 29 U.S. plants and GM and Ford are going close several over the next few years. That's buisness as usual, eh ? :confuse: The UAW, at some of it's plants has allowed the company (Ford and GM) to use the team concept where workers work in groups thus reducing the number of union job classifications and utilize the workforce. That is buisness as usual also I suppose ? :confuse:
And, no, people aren't going to choose a Cobalt over a Civic so that UAW workers can sit in the Jobs Bank or never make a meaningful contribution to their health care expenses.
With 40,000 UAW workers taking the buy-out which includes many in the job banks, this is moot. The job banks workers are buh bye. They either had to relocate or if elgible take a buy-out. So this is moot !!!!
Rocky
P.S. I'd take a Cobalt over the ugly civic any day. Obviously many others feel the same as I do. :P
Well that was just one example why regulation is needed. Doctors aren't even as qualified as your local veterninarian, but make 5x as much. I'm yet to meet a poor doctor, but have met upper middle class animal vets.
But all manufacturing isn't leaving this country. Witness the new plants that either have been built or are being built by Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, BMW and Mercedes right here in America.
LOL, amazing. With U.S. and STATE's help. If the federal government is going to give money away like this to foreign company's then they should give some to GM, and Ford. It's pothetic we will help foreign car company's out but not our own. A few strokes of the ink pen on trade policy would yield results for our car company's. BTW- the only ones making major contributions is Toyota, and Honda, the rest have 1 or 2 plants WHOOPIE !!!
For that matter, even the steel industry when through a rebirth on a smaller scale after the collapse of Bethlehem Steel.
True, but they didn't have the sheer competition that the domestic autoplants have. You also don't have to spend the money on marketing to the public with steel. It's apples to oranges in comparison.
Manufacturing is evolving and changing, becoming more efficient, but it is not dying out in this country.
You got to be kidding me !!! You must be trying to get a rise out of me.
Americans seem to be restraining their appetite for Ford and GM vehicles. Do you really think that the Japanese want them?
It's not whether they want them or not but it's the principal. Hell I'd even settle for GM, importing Chinese made Lucerne's into Japan. They are every bit as good as anything Japan sells. The pricipal of Japan, wanting our markets open but they can keep theirs closed with tariffs to protect their buisness's from competition is flat out not right. GM, has over the years along with Ford, tried to sell its vehicals in Japan, but with the tariffs a Chevy Cobalt would cost you $27K. So yeah who's going to buy them at those prices. BTW- last time I checked GM was still #1 and Ford was #3 in U.S. autosales. So their are plenty of americans that still like the Big 3.
Rocky
And the U.S. manipulates its currency, too. Sorry, but that excuse won't fly when examined.
Toyota makes more money per vehicle because it is more efficient. A big reason for its better efficiency is that it isn't faced with a 10+ percent absentee rate in its plants on a regular basis.
And with incentives, Impalas are CHEAPER than comparable Camrys.
rockylee: They also have a government that supports its workers in Japan, with national healthcare, which takes the burden of the employer.
Camrys are made here, so the Japanese government is not paying for the health care of Toyota workers in Kentucky (or Indiana and Texas, for that matter). Toyota must pay for health benefits for its American workers.
rockylee: In the U.S. they are non-union and with all the tax breaks they have gotten over the years they have have been able to build new modern plants, and can fire you whenever you get old and not as productive with no strings attatched. the Tax breaks alone take care of most of the healthcare costs they provide only because of the UAW's presence. You being a former union guy, I'm surprised you can't see through the smoke and mirrors.
And GM has received tax breaks from state and local governments when it builds a new plant (Lansing Grand River, for example), or revamps an old one.
It has been just as good at extorting these breaks from state and local governments as Toyota and Honda have.
I was in Germany in the summer of 2004 and again this past summer.
In the summer of 2004, the big news was that DaimlerBenz was demanding concessions from its union to remain competitive. VW, meanwhile, demanded concessions from its union, or it threatened to build a new, small SUV in Portugal instead of Germany.
And German companies provide health care to their employees. The nationalized health care system is for the poor, the retired or the unemployed.
rockylee: LOL, are you serious ? The textiles, furniture, autoparts, small engines, pharmaceuticals, have went south across the border or over sea's to get the cheap labor neccessary to compete. Watch Lou Dobbs 6 p.m. ET, to see where they once were (U.S.) and where they are now. I think my theory hold alot of weight with facts.
And lots of foreign companies are opening plants here, too.
rockylee: Again are you serious ? Whattabout those Chin-E Buick Lucerne's being made in China ? Why couldn't they make em' here and export them to China ? That is a loss of potential jobs and could of wiped out a good number of evil job bank users. Cadillac, is beginning to sell it's whole line-up over there this fall. They are selling them (Lucernes) for over $42K in China, which is more than they are here using UAW labor. Ford is following suit.
Are they exporting those cars from China to here? No. So it is a red herring.
And GM and Ford have not followed a policy of exporting large numbers of cars from America since the 1930s. They either buy a local company or build a factory to make cars for the local market.
What GM is doing in China is is exactly what GM has done in Australia, South America and Europe for decades now.
rockylee: Well the non-union workers don't have a contract and are left with what ever the company gives them at any given momment. Hewre in recent times for lets say the last 6 years the non-union workers have gotten the screws, and are jealous that union workers have the right to bargain and want nothing but the worse for the union workers. They look at it if I have to suffer, so should they which I find really sad.rockylee: The buisness as usual attitude ? What ? They have allowed GM, Ford, Chrysler, to hire temps to fill the jobs with a low wage of $14 at Delphi and $19 at GM/Ford, with zero benefits. That's buisness as usual ? They are also allowing Delphi to shutter 21 out of its 29 U.S. plants and GM and Ford are going close several over the next few years. That's buisness as usual, eh ? The UAW, at some of it's plants has allowed the company (Ford and GM) to use the team concept where workers work in groups thus reducing the number of union job classifications and utilize the workforce. That is buisness as usual also I suppose ?
What the UAW has "allowed" GM and Ford to do has been standard operating procedure at most companies for about two decades now.
rockylee: P.S. I'd take a Cobalt over the ugly civic any day. Obviously many others feel the same as I do
Judging by the retail sales figures of both cars, more people like the Civic better, even though the Cobalt SS models are actually pretty attractive.
Rocky
It manipulates it currency to keep the dollar stronger than what it actually is. The Japanese do quite the opposite to the number of exports to our shores. If that doesn't fly with you then I suppose the 800 pound gorilla taping you on the shoulder doesn't exist either.
Toyota makes more money per vehicle because it is more efficient. A big reason for its better efficiency is that it isn't faced with a 10+ percent absentee rate in its plants on a regular basis.
Where did you get that 10% absentee rate ? I'm calling B.S. on it ! I would assume the absentee rate would be a little higher for the UAW, workers since the avg. workers age is significantly older and most qualify for AARP benefits. Most of those workers are gone do to the buy-outs so it's moot point right now.
And with incentives, Impalas are CHEAPER than comparable Camrys.
Your point being ? :surprise: It still boils down to profit per unit and as I explained the reasons why Toyota has stronger profit margin. More modern plants paid for by tax payers, currency manipulation, they have much younger work force, which has allowed for more profit per unit. They also don't have the sheer number of retirees like GM. Toyota, has sold their union workers down the river in Japan, because we have americans here desperate for jobs and will work like slaves to keep them. We ask for little or no vacation, go to work sick, miss family and school functions for our company. What a life !!!!
Camrys are made here, so the Japanese government is not paying for the health care of Toyota workers in Kentucky (or Indiana and Texas, for that matter). Toyota must pay for health benefits for its American workers.
Yep, because they lost their jobs in Japan. Toyota, isn't obligated to pay its workers healthcare. They choose to because they don't want the workers to organize. If you believe different then you are looking the other way.
And GM has received tax breaks from state and local governments when it builds a new plant (Lansing Grand River, for example), or revamps an old one.
Yeah, they should get the tax breaks.
It has been just as good at extorting these breaks from state and local governments as Toyota and Honda have.
Toyota, and Honda are foreign owned business, and should not be allowed to get tax breaks from our government. This is where you and I differ. The Japanese wouldn't give GM, Ford, a tax break if they built a plant in Japan. :mad:
What if Ford, wanted to take the Mexico plant where they build the Milan, Fusion, MKZ, and move it to Japan, would the Japanese help them out and help pay for the plant, and provide the workers with healthcare. History proves they tell em' to get out !!!!
I was in Germany in the summer of 2004 and again this past summer.
In the summer of 2004, the big news was that DaimlerBenz was demanding concessions from its union to remain competitive. VW, meanwhile, demanded concessions from its union, or it threatened to build a new, small SUV in Portugal instead of Germany.
And German companies provide health care to their employees. The nationalized health care system is for the poor, the retired or the unemployed.
Well isn't that pretty much what Delphi, is doing here in the U.S. to the UAW, workers ?
And lots of foreign companies are opening plants here, too.
On average they aren't paying the wages and benefits as the ones they replaced.
Are they exporting those cars from China to here? No. So it is a red herring.
Well give it 10 years and you might see something like this happen. Especially if the Chinese owned company's like Brickland, Chery, Geely, etc have success with their cars.
This what a Free Market will yield you. GM, Ford, could be doomed.
And GM and Ford have not followed a policy of exporting large numbers of cars from America since the 1930s. They either buy a local company or build a factory to make cars for the local market.
Agree, but in those local markets they are able to compete because the playing field is more level. Look at GM in China, they have a more level playing field and are #1 in China.
What GM is doing in China is is exactly what GM has done in Australia, South America and Europe for decades now.
Agree, but it's on a much larger scale now because the world's economy has grown.
What the UAW has "allowed" GM and Ford to do has been standard operating procedure at most companies for about two decades now.
Agree, GM/Ford hired to many workers back in the 80's and 90's and turned a blind eye to the future. I guess they never saw Japan being a real threat until it was to late.
Judging by the retail sales figures of both cars, more people like the Civic better, even though the Cobalt SS models are actually pretty attractive.
Just my point, how do you know the Japanese wouldn't buy a GM, product ? I guess with the current trade policy's we will never know because Japan, won't open up their market for trade. It's a one sided victory for the Japanese, and thus they have gotten revenge for the atom bomb, because of our governments stupidity. :sick:
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Since you asked...Yes, It sounds like another of your totally uninformed rants. Comparatively, you know basically nothing about them because I'd be surprised if you have even seen most of those vehicles, much less driven any of them.
How can you go off about how great you think the MK-whatever-the-suv-is-called should have done when it really is nothing more than a badge engineered Ford with cream colored leather, which you have never seen in person nor driven?
Stick to what you know, tell us again how great your MKS is.
You asked.
Expect a fresh one next year with additional "product differentiation" when the F-150 gets redone next year.
But whatever.... :sick:
Rocky