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Do you realize how many US built vehicles Honda exports to Japan??????
A VERY small number. Out of 743,071 Honda automobiles sold in Japan in 2004, 907 were made in the United States and another 509 were made in Canada. Those numbers account for the Element, Civic GX, LaGreat (US Odyssey), and MDX. Hardly what I would call astounding figures: 0.19%
1 in 525 JDM Hondas is made in the US. Your point?
On the other hand, 98.8% of the Honda sales in Japan were Japan-built. If the Japanese market wasn't so picky for quality, the Chinese-made Fit would be sold in Japan too.
"This is proven incorrect based on past 20 years of Honda Civic and Accord introductions."
Give me a break. I have driven identical year Accords built in Marysville and Sayama, and there are noticeable differences in quality. My Sayama-built Accord was bulletproof. Other experiences I have had are with the CR-V (Japan) and the Civic (US). Please don't tell me that there aren't quality differences. Do you know where almost all the recalls on US-market Hondas are from? North America
Furthermore, the three main Honda assembly plants in Japan are Honda's most advanced plants in the world. So, even if you eliminate the "Japan" theory, and the fact that the Japanese are building the cars (which does count for a lot...I couldn't agree more with plekto), you are still looking at cars coming from more advanced plants, than ones that aren't.
excerpt from JD Power IQS study Civics built in North America have a nearly 15 PP100 advantage over their Japanese-built counterparts. Toyota Corollas built in both Japan and North America are almost identical in initial quality
This is not a theory. The subject has been researched and the finding is that quality is equal to or higher for Honda and Toyota models built in North America compared to those in Japan. Statistically proven, not anecdotal.
excerpt from JD Power study "Consumers often delay purchasing a model in its first year, waiting for the manufacturer to get the so-called bugs out," said Joe Ivers, partner and executive director of quality/customer satisfaction at J.D. Power and Associates. "Yet, the quality of most new-model launches is actually very good. Some manufacturers have virtually eliminated the launch-year quality drop-off. A few have even demonstrated a pattern of launching models with better initial quality than the models they replaced."
Toyota, Honda, Mitsubishi are among the manufacturers to have higher quality for lauch year vehicles than those they replaced. Continuous quality improvement.
The belief that Japan Honda quality is higher than North American Honda quality is rooted in emotion and does not stand the test of intensive studies of quality and the non-emotional, factual conclusion.
For me NOTHING is more useless than these 90-day ownership surveys. My Accord was 18 years old when I sold it. I plan on keeping my Fit for a very long time as well. I want to make sure everything is still fine at 200k+ miles, not just after a few months.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to eliminate launch-year quality drop-off. In fact, it's going to get worse and worse. Companies are putting brand new technology into cars and the long-term durability in real life is not known. If you really think a brand-new first-year US built Fit will be better than a Japanese built model with 5 years of revisions and refinement, more power to you, but let's see some facts on that one.
Hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of Japan-built Fits and Jazzes have been sold throughout the world. It is constantly receiving top marks in quality, workmanship, and now after several years; long-term reliability. However, look at the recalls with transmission trouble or other quality issues that NA-built Accords, Civics, Odysseys, and Pilots are having. I honestly have not found any records of problems with Japan-built Fits or Jazzes, and I have been looking.
Could you provide a link to your sources on reliability?
Thanks.
The thing is, when they come up with Honda, they stand behind the product. I've seen them do some strange things in regards to warranty, all to the customer benefit.
Sure, however, it would be better if you search and discover the data. It is the only possible way that you can overcome the emotional preconception you have adopted that Japan built Honda is better than NA built Honda and first year quality is less than subsequent year quality. Hey, it took a long time for some people to accept that the world is not flat!
Long term relibility or IQS, the result is the same conclusion. JD Power is ISO 9001 certified and I have to place greater credibility on their results than I do yours or my opinion.
2005 CR-V (no NA production, older model) 4 stars
2005 Civic (primarily NA production) 3 stars
2005 Odyssey (NA production, new model) 2 stars
Sorry...I know this isn't Fit-related, but I am trying to make a point on a brand new US Fit model vs. a tried and test Japanese model.
I understand your point, I do not accept it.
Does not really matter, the Fit looks like a very good product. Nice to have more choices on the market.
whats the most accurate guess of the us mpg figures after converting whatever would need converting, thanks
Sport model (black interior)
Base model (beige interior)
(of course, you can't tell just how much head and neck clearance Fido will have from these views, since the hatch is open)
I don't think the US Hondas are bad cars. It's just that over the decades, my family (close and extended) has owned LOTS and LOTS of Honda and Toyota products. I have found personally that the cars that were produced in the US seem to have a higher rate of repairs and faults than the ones made in Japan. My 1987 Accord had 260k miles on it when I sold it. Not one single repair (other than normal...brakes, oil, tires) had occured before 235k miles. Even after that, there was never a squeak or a rattle and much of the car ran very well except for a tired automatic transmission. Same thing with a '00 CR-V and '98 Camry. Both Japan made and both have a good bit of miles (90k+) with out one repair.
Same can't be said for a US-built Civic (60k mi) or my current US Corolla. My 1991 Corolla was owned by a woman who used it occasionally and took care of it like a child. Garaged, clean, maintained to the max. Yet, with only 40k miles it has had numerous repairs and lots of minor defects in the interior that can be an aggravation. Civic has also had several repairs and its 3 years old. Lots of squeaks, and rattles from the interior. The list goes on...and on in this pattern, so I'm just speaking from experience.
"Does not really matter, the Fit looks like a very good product. Nice to have more choices on the market."
Absolutely. It's nice to see companies like Honda and Toyota finally catering to people who want quality small hatchbacks, not just large cars and trucks. Now, if Honda could just get the 2.2i i-CTDi to pass through the EPA.
Can't wait for the Fit...just a few more months of impatient waiting for April delivery!!!!
I posted in a previous message under this forum (message #1558), where to find the high-res photos I uploaded for everyone's use. They are the same as those found at hondanews.com, but at a higher resolution than those available to the general public.
The list of available colors can be found within several posts in this forum (message #1785?), without having to go too far back.
Accessories? Check out College Hills Honda for a place to start.
Accord (at least most of them) have been manufactured in the USA since 1982.
As for 2005 CR-V, not all are manufactured in Japan. I thought several came from UK (all east cost deliveries from UK in the past).
Mine was made in Japan (VIN: JHMCA5...) Sayama factory, to be precise. The CR-V was also made at Sayama. I am living in California.
UK built CR-Vs have a VIN starting with "S". Somewhere in the code is the factory it was built in as well...I think it's digit 11.
C=Sayama
S=Suzuka (the Fit is built there)
I'm not sure about the rest off the top of my head though.
Linky
Click on everything you see on the site. Lots of great pictures of man's (and woman's) best friend in the Honda Fit.
While my ability to read Japanese is somewhere in the negative range, I'm thinking they're touting how easy it is to clean up after Fido, with nothing more than a lint brush.
Oh my God ... it could only be six weeks away?!? Hooray for the short month of February!
For your sake, I certainly hope mid-March is correct. If I were told that, and it still ended up being April, I would be one unhappy puppy ... until, of course, I picked up my car.
http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2005036
Oh - the reason we want a Japan built Fit is because it's in the final yeaars of the specific design AND the quality control for a Japan/U.S. model is higher. Not the way they build it, but the last-minute checking and so on. Problems get fixed(no pun intended - heh) quickly and right, as if it were sold locally, you'd loose sales for even small problems. People in Japan want their cars to be white-glove perfect when they get them new. So they go that little extra step.
Compare an Accura made in Japan with one in the U.S., for instance. Both are the same quality, and nothing's wrong, but the panels are a tiny bit better on one, the stitching on the seats, if leather, is a slight bit nicer... It's just a 5% better car.(and why shouldn't I get the best for my money anyways?)
My personal theory is that the Japan plants are a bit pickier about components and have a higher rejection rate. Stuff that is properly made but a bit off or discolored or whatnot - they fail it, even if it's within specs for such things. Not much more, but a bit more nonetheless. So while both cars are built the same, but one has slightly better overall actual quality.
In the luxury cars, it's a very very small difference, but as the price drops, it becomes more apparent. The Echo, for instance, was a huge dissapointment for many people it was built so cheaply. Corners had to be cut and it was painfully obvious where they made every one.
Yes, some of them are. More specifically, the ones on the east coast. The west coast models are made at Sayama.
That happened in Europe. Originally, Honda used to only import Jazzes to Europe from Japan. When they started to import them from China as well, they actually had to do quite a bit of checking and even replacing things on the cars in Europe, because it wasn't done at the factory. Of course, I would take a North American Fit over a Chinese Fit any day, especially since Takeo Fukui even admitted to the Guangzhou factory problems
Now that I think about it, the whole idea is kind of silly, since no NA plants actually will be making the Fit for now. If the Fit II comes out in Japan in summer of 2007, which would make the most sense, it will probably arrive in the US in the fall. Then, there might be some question of US production, but I'm not sure if it would be right away.
The real issue should of have been, what if the Fit is coming from Brazil or China, which even Honda was giving as a possibility. Regardless, ever since we knew officially that the Fit would be coming and when (July 2005), we have known that US and Canada models would be made in Japan.
I would LOVE for them to show that 2 minute Accord commercial they show in Europe, but 2 minutes of Super Bowl time would be a HUGE bill.
It just amazes me that, aside from a hint on the Honda website, and the stuff from the NAIAS, there hasn't been any advertising.
To Honda - The car is just a couple of months away, people! You can't expect to sell it, if no one knows it's out there!
Was it the Ridgeline they started advertising for during the Super Bowl before its Spring, 2005 launch?
take a lawyer, is he going to try to know how to do brain surgury, no cause that is not what is going to pay his bills..
i wish ppl would lay off the salesmen sometimes..
All I meant to say is that the 1.5 engine with CVT is going well and offers very fair speed pickup, even at highway speeds, but need the gas pedal to be pressed hard and naturally, at the expense of fuel economy.
Fuel Consumption is same than one previous car with half the power (58HP) , manual transmission and 1100 cc displacement.
So it can even cope with longer trips than simple commuting
There was a salesman we purchased a car from once, who was a very respectable person and I could trust. He also knew a lot about Honda cars. Once when I was looking at an Accord back in early 2003, I was asking him about the Fit/Jazz (Yes, I already wanted one then...it's been a long wait
However, before I knew this dealer, I talked to several others who were really no help at all. Even as late as December 2005, they were saying how skeptical they were that the Fit would even show up, and they "would believe it when they saw it". Come on! Honda had officially announced the model, arrival time, and build location for the US, Canadian, and Mexican models in July 2005. It didn't take hours of internet research to find that out.
Also, at this point there is a lot of information that is fully available to the public on hondanews.com including all the specifications, features, and an in-depth press release on the car. It only takes 20 minutes, and a salesman could learn a TON of easy-to-access information about the Fit.
I totally understand that a salesman has a family to feed, bills to pay, and they have to sell cars now to get the money. However, it wouldn't hurt for them to put http://www.hondanews.com in their "Favorites" list and check it once in a while.
You're absolutely right, I don't expect a lawyer to do brain surgery, but I do think he should stay up to date on any possible laws and codes that might be coming out in the future.
Info from dealers - there's going to be (in California, at least) a gathering of select Honda salespeople from different dealerships apparently in mid-March where they will all have an opportunity to check out the Fit, drive it, and get a feel for the car. One salesperson told me that the difference between invoice and MSRP is less than $1,000, but did not know the price yet. He thought the price would be announced in March. Fits are being allocated to dealerships is pretty small numbers (like 2 a month).
I'm hoping that Honda starts releasing their Fit ads by middle March 2006, though.
I heard that it would be 2 or 3 per month for April and then 5-8 for each month after that, depending on dealership size. I think the transmission and trim line choices is up to the dealer. I have heard some dealerships that ordered their cars all as Fit Sports with automatic transmissions. I placed my order on the day the dealership would be filling out the orders for the Fit (January 20). They had 1 base 5 speed manual in Lunar Mist, which they changed for me to Storm Silver, and then two Sports.
I will be interested to see the final MSRP.
I had a roommate that picked one up brand new from the dealership, with only A/C and power steering as options. It was a great car, got great gas mileage, and you could pack a whole dorm room's worth of stuff in it. We tended to use it more like a small pickup truck, than a people transporter.
The only real problem with it was the paint would chip off, if you so much as looked at it too harshly.
As of last summer, their kids were now driving that car with over 225k miles on it, and the only major repair has been to replace the clutch. When we took it out for a spin, the A/C was still going strong.
I figure that dealerships base their orders upon past sales experience, but with a new model, there has to be some guessing.
Even though it is not very hot (say 25°C), I have to push the A/C to 2nd or 3rd fan speed to get the cabin at a reasonable temp. imho, the blown air is not cold enough. Maybe my A/C is defective so I hope my experience is not representative at all.
I don't mean this harshly, but why do I 'need' a salesman and why do I 'need' to feed his family by paying extra for a product?
I want a Vivid Blue 5MT Sport. That is my decision. Give me a web site, an order blank, and a date to pick it up.
I don't begrudge the salesman's right to exist, but I think I should have the option of whether to use one. Don't even get me started on the fancy wax, treated seats, and sand-blasted window DAO's. :mad:
Sorry for the digression.
That's the way the system is set up. Dealerships pay millions for the right to represent a product, wether that product is a car or hamburgers. Everyone you meet in person that transacts money vs product is a salesman.
That means that if you work for a company that makes a product for sale...you at some capacity are a salesman for that company.
Now, as salespeople we also have the choice to choose to do business with or not to, especially in doing what I do with our Internet Dept. I receive rude emails all the time from people who have a "list of demands" and a tone that I choose not to deal with. The response I send is a simple, "no thanks I'm not interested" It's not a big thing, they go on their way and I go on mine.
My advice to you is to find a dealership where you can get your car with a minimum of "dealer-time", shouldn't be too hard to find.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/VideosMakeModelIndex/make=Toyota/model=Yari- s
... and click on the 2007 Toyota Yaris Video
What a bizarre experience :sick:
You are absolutely right, though. If you are looking at used, need a test-drive, and can't make up your mind, then yes, you likely do need a salesperson. They deserve a little money for their time, but IMO, not more than maybe $50, as they are essentially glorified receptionists. I've not met ONE that has the authority to make a deal, which is why they are essentially useless. You agree on a price and they have to go back to their boss every step of the way to make sure it's okay and try to most likely mess with your head to their advantage.
Now, if you know the exact model you want, it should be a simple in and out transaction like any other business. Optimally, there would be a total bypass of the salesperson and you could order and arrange everything online.
The fleet manager, though, will give you a decent price in 2-3 minutes, but not as low as you could likely haggle. OTOH, it's usually a hundred or two diference, and if you are like me, bypassing the feeding frenzy and "How much a month can you afford?" insanity is worth it.
We know all the tricks. And for most of us, it's as close to patronizing and insulting as is possible outside of a family gathering with your ex's relatives. Don't try to justify such tactics, either. You could run your dealership on a fixed price model and have no salespersons if you wanted, afterall, as it's your franchise. You could even go so far as to actually not play games with financing as well. But you don't. So, yes, dealerships do deserve a bit of flak for that.
P.S. The Yaris video is bizzare. How ticky tacky does a car have to be before they say it sucks? "Doesn't scream entry-level" - lol. As if. It's a slightly larger, more powerful Echo, make no mistake. ABS and power windows and and and - all optional. And I loved the "tilt wheel" being touted as a "feature". Um... My 1981 Buick had that feature, too.
Edmunds... JUST SAY IT SUCKS IF IT REALLY DOES.