I was on vacation in London recently, and took a trip to the Honda dealer to look at the Jazz. Folks, this is going to be one great car! This is going to kick Toyota Prius in the butt! Everything about it was great. It's a marvel of engineering-small on the outside, but BIG on the inside. I don’t know how they do it. It gets great mileage (40's with the CVT), does really well in the crash test, and has seats that do some pretty neat tricks. The salesman in London was surprised that I knew so much about this car. I had been waiting for a Toyota Prius for the gas mileage, but not only can you not get one it is no where near the value that this car is. I will just about be able to by 2 of these for the price of one Prius, and I may do just that!
I hope Honda actually does decide to release the Jazz/Fit in the U.S. Not only is it a neat little car, this may prompt other companies to compete. Mazda has their Micro-Sport they could release here in the states, and I'm sure Toyota could come up with a non-hybrid vehicle to compete as well. This would all lead to one thing; good things for us consumers.
___A huge Fit/Jazz fan here but would really like to see the Aria/City hit the US shores mid 2005 because of its better aerodynamics by all appearances.
___Anyway, as the Fit/Jazz is powered around the globe, it is an also ran in the fuel economy department because of its to low a fifth and final drive for the stick and 7th for the CVT. It has the identical ICE as that of the HCH (iDSI) other then lean burn and of course the hybridization but only has to lug around 2,100 #’s vs. the HCH’s 2,750 #’s. Honda is going to play games with this automobile so as to make their HCH look better sure as hell because with the Fit’s light weight can come even higher fuel economy out on the highway then even the HCH is capable of. As has been seen in the JDM, Asia, Euro, and Australian markets, it isn’t even close to the HCH’s highway fuel economy using the same 1,339 cc iDSI ICE minus lean burn. This is a real letdown as this automobile could be the poor mans true hybrid replacement without the added negatives of the Hybrid drivetrain in the first place. Place an in-house Honda designed 1.0 - 1.3 L iCDTi diesel in her and 80 + mpg out on the highway would be a slam dunk with 0 - 60 times in the 10 second range using a higher geared fifth and final drive 5-speed stick. Honda in its infinite wisdom will screw this up with the 1.5 L 108 HP ICE without any lean burn and maybe a max 46 - 47 mpg EPA rating out on the highway. This will indeed be an unfortunate turn of events for us all here in the states and the world just so Honda can trump up the HCH as their far more expensive and higher fuel economy automobile, guaranteed :-(
___Honda, this infuriates me to no end as you can well imagine and damn you for pulling this stupid stunt around the globe to date! Oh, and add 50 #’s of sound insulation because the reviews around the globe mention it isn’t the most quiet of automobiles out on the highway
___For a bit more reads on the Fit’s late 2005 release; take a gander at the following:
I thought I recall reading the Jazz/Fit has a beam rear axle and rear drum brakes--pretty sure the recently posted review from Australia mentioned that. I wonder if Honda plans to leave those as-is for the U.S. version.
___The Jazz/Fit does have rear drums and solid beam rear axle. The new Fit/Jazz available this fall in Euro and JDM will supposedly receive the 4-wheel discs. Here in the states? Probably the older model setup as I believe it is cheaper to manufacture for some reason. I also remember seeing a pic of the 05’s rear view mirrors and they had built in turn indicators. Very neat for a < $13,000 automobile. Whether we get that here however is another story. On top of all that, BA and a rudimentary FCD is std. on the 04’s and VSA will be available on the higher trims in the 05 MY! You cannot get these options on an Accord, let alone a much less expensive Civic. To receive a game gauge, you have to purchase an Accord EX-L w/ NAVI to the tune of $22,400 +. 4-channel VSA isn’t an option on any Accord or Civic available here in the states. Guess what Japan’s Fit has available to it? Keyless entry! And of course auto-climate Just goes to show us all how inexpensive these features are to the manufacturers.
The Mini Cooper is one of the only cars with Vehicle stability control; Honda should take that lead and offer: 2 WD or AWD; VSC, ABS; iVTEC engine, CVT with steering wheel mounted paddles...options so people could order cool technology if they wanted. And keep the stiff frame...it's SO key to long-term durability and handling...Honda usually offers trim lines (DX, LX, EX) and you have to order package and get junk you don't want to get what you DO want. They should try it like MINIUSA.com does...for those who want something more than just a basic inexpensive car. Hope they're reading this site...
Why should Honda sell the Fit/Jazz in the U.S. for only $10k when you can't get a comparably-equipped 5-door hatchback from any other automaker, even the Koreans, for an MSRP of $10k? Note that the Fit/Jazz will have ABS, side air bags, and side air curtains standard (as will nearly all Hondas by the end of 2006). The Aveo base model has an MSRP of $9995 but that's stripped, no ABS or side airbags. I think $12k is a very reasonable price for a car with the interior room, features, and quality offered by the Fit/Jazz.
What kind of gas mileage can we really expect from the US version of the Fit? I hope Honda offers the 1.3L I'm not interested in 0 to 60 times, I have a fast motorcycle for excitement, but I am looking for a car with usable hauling space, and GREAT fuel economy. I think $12k for a well equipped, quality built Honda would be acceptable.
That would be an interesting tactic, overlapping the prices of the Fit/Jazz with the Civic's. Since Honda doesn't offer the 5-door Civic in North America, they might be able to position the Fit/Jazz as the 5-door Civic-type vehicle and charge Civic-type prices for it. We'll also need to see what the price of the next Civic is, since it will have to add ABS, SAB, and SAC as standard equipment. If the price of a base Civic becomes $15k, then there's room for the Fit/Jazz at $14k.
___Since it isn’t a Civic and the Civic is already on the smallish side in comparison to any number of actual compacts, charging $14K + no matter the options is a bit high imho. The 04/05 Aveo, although a POS given the embarrassment of an ICE in it (103 HP for a measly 35 mpg at best out on the highway driving a 2,350 # automobile) as well as lack of safety features even in the SV, Base/LS, or LS/LT trim is appalling. Still, you have to compare the Aveo, which can be had here in the Chicago area in SV package format for < $8,000 brand new, with the Fit because of its size alone. The Suzuki Aerio is another worth while 5 door competitor but they (Suzuki) pretend they can get $13 - $18K for one of them? I would hope the Fit will arrive at $13K or at least $13K after a bit of haggling as equipped in Asia and Europe including ABS, EBD, possibly VSA, turn signal mirrors, all-around airbags, and a sunroof. If they start pushing $14K +, you are not that far away from purchasing a brand new Toyota Camry LE w/ Auto (< $16,000 for an 04 LE here this weekend) or Accord LX w/ Auto ($17.1K for an 04). The other item is that the Euro and Asian equipped Fit’s/Jazz’s/Aria’s/City’s don’t receive the fuel economy they are most certainly capable of. The reasons why have been posted already. Should Honda decide that the Fit will receive less fuel economy then the much larger and heavier European based Accord iCDTi, then they won’t be seeing a dime of my hard earned $’s. I have hope however ;-)
the Fit could be a "premium compact" like the Cooper or 9-2X? To make it premium, Honda could badge the Honda Fit as an Acura, price it at $20,000, add some leather here and there, include a Navigation System, and some different wheels and call it a day.
IMO the U.S. car buying public will not accept a car the size of the Fit/Jazz as a $20k Acura. That strategy might work in Canada, however, where the Honda has badged an upscale version of the Civic as an Acura. In the U.S., small car = cheap car, unless it's a sports-oriented car like the Mini Cooper, S2000 etc. That might change someday when gas costs more here.
As for the possibility of a Jazz/Fit listing for $13k with ABS, curtains, VSC, and moonroof, I think that is low odds. Consider that the Fit doesn't cost that much less to manufacture than a compact car like the Civic. Sure, there is some savings in steel, but not thousands of dollars worth. Now compare the MSRP of a Civic with all that equipment. Well, no, you can't because it doesn't exist yet. But the lowest-priced '04 Civic 4-door with ABS, side air bags, and moonroof is $18,000 MSRP. The lowest-priced '05 Matrix with ABS, side bags and curtains, and moonroof is $18,540 MSRP. Who knows what these will cost for the '06 MY, and with side curtains (on the Civic) and VSC (on both)? I'd look for a well-equipped Fit/Jazz with VSC and moonroof, plus the standard ABS and SABs/SACs, to be in the $15-16k range for list price. Discounts might be available eventually, but if gas prices stay up there I wouldn't count on big discounts on what should be a very popular car.
Honda can afford to price well equipped Jazz/Fit below base model Civic because Fit is based off a cheaper platform. UK is a market where Jazz and Civic 5-door are sold, with 1.4-liter engine, Jazz spans (on-the-road) price range of GBP 9,100 (base/5MT) to GBP 12,400 (Sport/CVT-7). Civic 5-door HB with 1.4-liter engine spans (on-the-road) price range of GBP 11,000 to GBP 13,500.
With this in mind, it should be possible for Honda to offer a base model (DX) with MSRP around $12K and an LX model around $14K. Civic could continue to start from about $14K and go up to $20K.
And speaking of size, Jazz is said to offer similar interior space as Civic.
___04 Civic EX’s have gone OTD for a little over $16K here near Chicago over the last 2 months. If the Jazz/Fit comes anywhere near this price (OTD, which is not MSRP), Chicagoan’s will wake up to this fact pretty quick.
___You are dead on about small cars = economy cars = reasonably priced/cheap cars. If Honda were to attempt to sell the Fit loaded up or not at $15 - $16K when you can pick up a brand new Camry LE w/ Auto or Civic EX for the same, what is the average Chicagoan going to purchase?
___Robertsmx:
And speaking of size, Jazz is said to offer similar interior space as Civic.
___That is just one of the reasons I am interested in one. Exterior wise however, it is about the size of an Aveo which is very small imho. Interior size alone doesn’t justify a ridiculous pricing structure. We shall see soon enough what Honda has in store in terms of trim and pricing
Comparing like trim levels, it appears there is about a 1000 GBP price difference (MSRP) between the the UK Jazz and 5-door Civic:
1.4 E: Jazz 10013, Civic 11013 1.6 VTEC SE: Jazz 12013, Civic 13013 1.7 CTDi SE: Jazz 13013, Civic 14013
Hard to tell what that will translate to in the U.S. market, because equipment will probably be different. But looking at the relative prices and considering what Honda charges for Civics in the U.S., I still see a $12k list price for a Fit/Jazz as highly unlikely. If Honda did that, you would have a long wait list for the Fit/Jazz, probably with large dealer markups.
___Very good research Are those numbers in British Pounds or converted to US $’s? It does appear as if the Fit/Jazz is only $1,000 difference compared to the Civic 5-door to the penny. I don’t know? A 2,100 # very small exterior automobile compared to a 2,600 # + automobile compared to a 3,150 # + automobile for $0 - $2,500 difference? I see a failure in the market place no matter how great the Fit/Jazz is reported to be at those kinds of prices. $15 to $16K OTD for one that is.
The pricing in my post a few back were in GBP, taken from the August 2004 issue of Car magazine.
Why do people buy Mini Coopers for list price or over when they could by a Civic or Camry for less? The average Chicagoan may very well buy a Camry. The Chicagoans who want a small but roomy car with exceptional fuel economy and hatchback versatility might like the Fit/Jazz. In my area, a basic '04 Camry will set you back $17,500, so a loaded Fit/Jazz with VSC and moonroof for under $16k wouldn't be out of line IMO. I'd much rather have a Fit/Jazz at that price than a Camry, since I like small cars and I like the idea of the high fuel economy the Fit/Jazz will provide.
Honda's website doesn't show availability of Jazz with anything but the 1.4 i-DSI engine (in Japan, 1.5/VTEC is standard, which is the engine I expect to power the American Fit). Honda is due to release a 1.2 i-DSI in Europe.
Well, it would help a lot if I would read the data from the Jazz table instead of the Civic 3-door hatchback table!!
Correct numbers from Car magazine:
1.4 Jazz base model: 9013 GBP 1.4 Civic 5-door base model: 11013 GBP
I have no idea how the equipment compares between the Jazz 1.4 S model and the Civic 1.4 E model; I'll leave that for someone else to investigate so I can get back to my "homework" for the weekend.
BTW, the Jazz is one of the few cars of ANY price to which Car Magazine has given its five-star rating. Its capsule summary:
For: Spacious, clever, solid Against: Pricey Sum up: The boss supermini
___The 1.4 is actually a 1,339 cc ICE and is very similar to that used in the HCH minus lean burn. It produces 85 HP and 88 Ft-Lb’s of torque. UK for torque and US HCH specs for the HP. Remember that this ICE is propelling a 2,100 # automobile + driver. The SULEV rated 1.5 VTEC that is rumored to be heading to the states in the US based Fit is supposedly a 108 HP version. Torque specs are unknown but expect ~ 105 - 110 Ft-Lb’s. I don’t know much about the 1.6 although a hopped up 1.6L 160 HP i-VTEC is used in the Civic Si (same uni-body as the Fit/Jazz) IIRC?
___I don’t blame you in the least in regards to the Aveo. It is a POS. It is however a Jazz sized $8,000 - $12,000 POS.
___At $15K for a Jazz however, I would rather pay a touch above $17K for an 04 Honda Accord LX I would however love to purchase a Honda Jazz loaded up in the $13K range after some dealing. If not, an 05 Accord LX w/ all-around air-bags and ABS for $17.5K looks like a much better value once both are available for a side by side comparison in a few short months. Yes, side by side and this is where the sub-compacts fall by the way side no matter how much better the 46 mpg to 34 mpg out on the highway or 35 mpg to 24 mpg in the city look.
Yes, side by side and this is where the sub-compacts fall by the way side no matter how much better the 46 mpg to 34 mpg out on the highway or 35 mpg to 24 mpg in the city look.
You don't seem to understand that some people like driving small cars. They are fun to drive, turn on a dime, are easier to park, and more economical to buy and run. Why buy a car the size of the Accord when you don't need it? Bigger doesn't necessarily mean better value.
You don't seem to understand that some people like driving small cars. They are fun to drive, turn on a dime, are easier to park, and more economical to buy and run. Why buy a car the size of the Accord when you don't need it? Bigger doesn't necessarily mean better value.
___If you had a choice between a Compact Civic EX w/ Auto or Corolla LE w/ Auto for $1,000 less then a Honda Accord LX (all have similar equipment minus the EX’s sunroof but lack of side curtains), which would you purchase? If Bigger doesn’t necessarily mean better, make all of them the same price! The Accord is faster then both. It is larger then both. It is quieter then both. It is more comfortable then both. The only item is that its TCO is just a tad bit higher then both. If the price was the same, there wouldn’t be but a few Civic’s and Corolla’s sold.
___Now how about a Sub-Compact for only $2,500 less? It is one thing to pay $4,500 + less ($13K loaded up) vs. the much larger, much faster, much more comfortable ($17,500) automobile as then it is probably an economical buy. It is another thing altogether to pay only $2,500 less ($15K) because then it is not so economical and you more then likely won’t cover the TCO.
___The Jazz is a great car for those that own them overseas. It will be here as long as it is priced properly. If it arrives anywhere near what we can pick up an Accord or Civic EX for, it will be off many American’s radar screens and would have been off many radar screens overseas with a similar pricing structure. IIRC, the current Civic Si is based of the same platform as the Jazz but in a 3 door hatch. Honda sells very few even though they have a 160 HP VTEC attached. It is Honda’s outrageous MSRP that is killing them as it is a rather attractive car but not for $19K +. Someone will have to look up the wheelbase and track to verify the Civic Si uses the Jazz platform as I might be way out to lunch on that one?
That said, IMO, a two trim lineup ($12-14K) will do good.
___I agree. And with a bit of a discount, $13 K loaded up would fit in my stable nicely Anymore, and it won’t as you can find great under invoice deals on Accord’s and Civic’s.
If Bigger doesn’t necessarily mean better, make all of them the same price!... If the price was the same, there wouldn’t be but a few Civic’s and Corolla’s sold.
Of course not. They're smaller cars. You could say the same about diamonds - if a one-carat cost the same as a five-carat, how many one-carats would be sold? But a five-carat diamond is not the right application for an earring.
That's not the way pricing works, ever. I bought a sofa & loveseat last weekend. The loveseat was of the same quality as the sofa, same manufacturer, but smaller. It isn't better or worse than the sofa in any way - it's just smaller. And best of all, it fits.
Two analogies in one post. Huh. While the Jazz may not be for you, there are some people who will simply prefer to have it over an Accord or similar product.
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Actually Kirstie provided a good answer, but I also think your comments are strange coming from someone who could have purchased an Accord but instead purchased the slower, smaller, less comfortable Corolla, and who also owns one of the smallest cars on the road, the Insight. It appears to me that you too prefer small cars over midsized cars like the Accord.
I disagree. First of all, $2K price difference can be a big deal in $15K price class. And sometimes, it isn’t always about “market price”. My wife and I already had an Accord and to address the need of a second car, we could have easily added another. We went for Civic EX instead of Accord LX for a few reasons.
Besides the $2K or so that we saved, we also looked at fuel economy, and the smaller size. The Civic consistently gets us 30-32 mpg in city and the Accord, 24-25 mpg. Over four years, that’s an additional $1K in fuel savings.
In case of Jazz, the math would be easier. First of all, if MSRP on “LX” is $15K, compared to MSRP on Accord LX at $20K, we have a $5K difference right away. That’s substantial (33% premium on top of Jazz’s price tag!).
Now, you could say, nobody pays MSRP for Accord LX. True. A 10% “discount” off MSRP is logical (to get close to invoice pricing on just about any car), that puts us at about $18K for Accord LX. Do the same math for Jazz, and we may now be at $13.5K in that case, still a 4.5K difference.
And then, Jazz, with its 1.5/110 HP, has the potential to deliver 35-40 mpg in city. That can be a major consideration to many in their purchase. I know, it will be, in mine, especially if most of my driving involves city driving. After 60K miles, we may be talking about saving about 750 gallons of fuel, and that can amount to $1300-1700 in savings.
Plus, the utility of a hatchback is desirable to many buyers.
IIRC, the current Civic Si is based of the same platform as the Jazz but in a 3 door hatch. Honda sells very few even though they have a 160 HP VTEC attached. It is Honda’s outrageous MSRP that is killing them as it is a rather attractive car but not for $19K +. Someone will have to look up the wheelbase and track to verify the Civic Si uses the Jazz platform as I might be way out to lunch on that one?
You’re out to lunch on that one. :-)
Honda’s platforms Global Economy Platform: Jazz/Fit, City Global Compact Car Platform: Civic, RSX/Integra, CR-V, Element Global Midsize Car Platform: Accord, TSX, TL, (2005) RL Global Light Truck Platform: Odyssey, Pilot, MDX Specialty Platforms: S2000 & NSX
Civic SI, like any other Civic across the globe, is based off the compact car platform. The economy platform is used for cheaper offerings, including Jazz/Fit and City and it also utilizes the same suspension set up that the CRX and the Civics from the 1980s used (Macpherson struts front, and torsion beam axle rear).
As for the Civic SI sales issues, it wasn’t the car itself, but it was flavoring of the car that affected the sales (besides that it wasn’t offered with automatic in a market that demands it).
Yeah, I believe 1988-91 Civic was the first to have wishbones. I'm not sure about the CRX though. Did it continue to have the old set up thru the end of its run in 1992?
coming from someone who could have purchased an Accord but instead purchased the slower, smaller, less comfortable Corolla, and who also owns one of the smallest cars on the road, the Insight. It appears to me that you too prefer small cars over midsized cars like the Accord.
___The 03 Corolla works well for the $15,200 I paid. I couldn’t pick up the new 03 Accord LX for < $18,500 at the time. Would I purchase the smaller Fit for similar? I wouldn’t purchase an 05 Corolla for similar today given the deals available on the Camry and Accord’s so that should answer your question. Maybe you are one of the few that would? Given my experience with the MDX and Insight, the Accord I4 when setup will be good for almost 50 mpg on the highway with my style of driving. The Fit should be good for ~ 60 - 62 mpg but at a slightly slower speed. Not enough delta although I am a mostly highway type driver.
___As for the Insight, a $10K automobile receiving 105 mpg over the last 5 months of commuting miles with just me in it? What would you purchase for a 180 mile/day commute? A Hyundai? Even today it is still worth almost $10K?
___Given your argument from above, place the Accord/Camry on the showroom floor for just $1,500 - $2,500 more then the Fit or even the equivalent. It doesn’t matter how much one could justify the Fit’s size or even fuel economy, the Accord and Camry will be the ones purchased in so large a quantity as to make the Fit a non-event (much < 50,000 sold) if it is made available in the $15K + range. A sub-compact/compact is after all a subcompact/compact in comparison to the true midsize. Both will get you where you need to go except one is far safer and far more comfortable. If the Delta between the two isn’t significant, the lesser automobile will usually be stuck languishing on the lot.
___We are not speaking about one carat to five carats for an earring but of a one carat, 34 facets, F color, and SI2 clarity vs. an earring of 1.3 carats, 58 facets, D color, and VVS2 clarity. Which earring would you rather have for a difference of just 10 - 15%?
___Some are going to love the Fit and I like it on paper without ever having seen or driven one in person. The issue however is at what price point(s) is it going to be released? Some here think $14 - $16K is about right. I personally think it is too high given all the compact and mid-size automobiles available in and around that price range. After discounts in the low $13K range relatively well equipped? Now you are speaking my language. When it first arrives, we will more then likely see MSRP type numbers and with that, you really have to be thinking with your heart instead of your head if it is indeed a $14 - $16K automobile given what a new Camry or Accord can actually be purchased for.
In case of Jazz, the math would be easier. First of all, if MSRP on “LX” is $15K, compared to MSRP on Accord LX at $20K, we have a $5K difference right away. That’s substantial (33% premium on top of Jazz’s price tag!).
___Were you interested in picking up a brand new 04 Accord LX w/ Auto for $17,100 including destination? There is a Honda dealership here in Chicago that you can pick one up for that price tomorrow morning. I am not talking MSRP to MSRP because you and I won’t pay MSRP. For the Fit, there might be that issue when it is first released. Even afterwards, the markup on it will probably be smaller then that of the Civic which is smaller then the Accord.
Example:
Civic LX w/ Auto: $1,389 difference between MSRP and Invoice Accord LX w/ Auto: $2,007 difference between MSRP and Invoice
___What do you think the markup on a 2006 Fit will be? $1,000 tops is a good guesstimate.
___So if you can pick up a Fit for $15 + K or an Accord LX for $17,100, which are you going to purchase. At $13K, the numbers are interesting enough to sway me as has already been mentioned.
___In regards to the Civic Si/Fit, yes, except for the following?
___When seeing the 3 Civic’s (2 of them side by side), the Si looked awfully small for some reason? I looked up the Jazz’s spec and it does indeed have a much shorter WB and length then any of the Civic’s above.
Given all the personal comments you sprinkle into your messages, I thought you liked them (e.g., "Maybe you are one of the few that would?"). But I am glad to steer clear of personal comments. Of course, I will expect you to follow your own advice and do the same.
I think a loaded Fit at $15,000 MSRP, equipped as we have been discussing with ABS, SAB/SAC, VSC, and moonroof, would be an acceptable price. Considering that two years ago a Corolla could cost, at discount, over $15k without SAC or VSC even being available, that is a high level of equipment for the money IMO. Would I like the Fit to cost less? Sure. I'd like it to list for $4999 with a $3000 rebate. :-) But that is not realistic. Nor is expecting a Honda to be priced in the same ballpark as competing Korean models like the Accent, Aveo, and Rio. Honda has proven over the years that many buyers will pay a premium for Honda's reputation for quality and reliability. Why should they slap a bargain-basement price on the Fit/Jazz? I expect they will price it starting at least $1000, maybe $1500, over its Korean competition, as they do now with other models, and there will be no shortage of buyers.
Now if Honda surprises me and prices loaded Fit/Jazzes at $12k, I will be very happy--assuming I want to wait in a long line for the car.
Between a MT Civic EX and MT Accord LX, the price difference would had been about $2K but one reason I had to replace my Prelude (MT) was to get something my wife could drive and that meant AT. CR-V was a consideration for a while, as was another Accord, but both of us preferred Civic over Accord. The larger size didn't win.
And I couldn't compare "market value" of a car that hasn't been officially declared to "deal" available on a clearance model. If it comes down to it, I'm going to be targeting at least 10% off MSRP anyway, Fit, Civic or Accord.
I'm glad to see the pace of discussions picking up about the Jazz. This truly will be the remarkable small hatchback that many Honda lovers have been waiting for. I looked this car over pretty good when I was in the UK, and was hard pressed to find any faults with it. The thing that you really can’t tell by reading about this car is how BIG this thing is on the inside. I know it sounds odd, but for a car about the size of the VW Golf, the cram a HUGE amount of interior space into it. It’s almost like a carnival illusion. I looked in-out-in-out thinking, "how did they do this"? Roomy on the inside and small on the outside-what a concept! Yes, for some of us bigger is not better. If you like driving a small car for maneuverability, parking and efficiency, this car is going to make you very happy.
1. The reason why Honda is bringing over the Honda Fit is the numerous rumors that Honda wants to take the Civic model more upmarket to better compete against the Mazda3 here in the USA and a new generation of small cars for the European market. Because of that, Honda needs a lower-end car to attract first-time buyers, and the Honda Fit will likely fill that bill.
2. The US market will likely NOT get the 1.4 engine because 0-60 acceleration in the 12 second range is not desirable to American drivers. The more powerful 1.5-liter i-VTEC engine rated at 108-110 bhp sold on certain model Japanese market Fits will be the sole engine for the US market Fit.
3. I am guessing that the Honda Fit we get for the US market may end up being an all-new car, a car that will replace the Fit/Jazz sold in Japan and Europe. It will be a slightly bigger car, designed to better accommodate American-sized passengers. Why an all-new car? Note what I said above about Honda taking the Civic more upmarket.
If true, it will be interesting to see if Honda can out-do the Mazda3 with the new Civic while holding the line on prices (since the Mazda3 is very competitive price-wise with the current Civic).
Honda Civic and Mazda3 could battle it out in much the same way that Honda Accord and Mazda6 do. All that Civic needs is the treatment Accord has received in recent years, and without affecting the balance that has been Honda’s strength. Remember, Honda isn’t going to be focused on pleasing a fraction of the audience of what it does already. It wouldn’t make business sense.
Fit’s presence isn’t going to affect placement of Civic. That’s my opinion. Fit is going to address a position that Civic left with departure of the low cost hatchback offerings (CX/DX/VX) only this time around with more features.
I think a well equipped (LX model) is worth to me around $12,500. Step up to an EX, and to me it's worth a $2,000 premium over the LX. To me. Different people have different wants and needs.
Comments
http://hondapreview.com/fit/index.htm
Sniffles
Folks, this is going to be one great car! This is going to kick Toyota Prius in the butt! Everything about it was great. It's a marvel of engineering-small on the outside, but BIG on the inside. I don’t know how they do it. It gets great mileage (40's with the CVT), does really well in the crash test, and has seats that do some pretty neat tricks. The salesman in London was surprised that I knew so much about this car. I had been waiting for a Toyota Prius for the gas mileage, but not only can you not get one it is no where near the value that this car is. I will just about be able to by 2 of these for the price of one Prius, and I may do just that!
___A huge Fit/Jazz fan here but would really like to see the Aria/City hit the US shores mid 2005 because of its better aerodynamics by all appearances.
___Anyway, as the Fit/Jazz is powered around the globe, it is an also ran in the fuel economy department because of its to low a fifth and final drive for the stick and 7th for the CVT. It has the identical ICE as that of the HCH (iDSI) other then lean burn and of course the hybridization but only has to lug around 2,100 #’s vs. the HCH’s 2,750 #’s. Honda is going to play games with this automobile so as to make their HCH look better sure as hell because with the Fit’s light weight can come even higher fuel economy out on the highway then even the HCH is capable of. As has been seen in the JDM, Asia, Euro, and Australian markets, it isn’t even close to the HCH’s highway fuel economy using the same 1,339 cc iDSI ICE minus lean burn. This is a real letdown as this automobile could be the poor mans true hybrid replacement without the added negatives of the Hybrid drivetrain in the first place. Place an in-house Honda designed 1.0 - 1.3 L iCDTi diesel in her and 80 + mpg out on the highway would be a slam dunk with 0 - 60 times in the 10 second range using a higher geared fifth and final drive 5-speed stick. Honda in its infinite wisdom will screw this up with the 1.5 L 108 HP ICE without any lean burn and maybe a max 46 - 47 mpg EPA rating out on the highway. This will indeed be an unfortunate turn of events for us all here in the states and the world just so Honda can trump up the HCH as their far more expensive and higher fuel economy automobile, guaranteed :-(
___Honda, this infuriates me to no end as you can well imagine and damn you for pulling this stupid stunt around the globe to date! Oh, and add 50 #’s of sound insulation because the reviews around the globe mention it isn’t the most quiet of automobiles out on the highway
___For a bit more reads on the Fit’s late 2005 release; take a gander at the following:
http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=275355
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___The Jazz/Fit does have rear drums and solid beam rear axle. The new Fit/Jazz available this fall in Euro and JDM will supposedly receive the 4-wheel discs. Here in the states? Probably the older model setup as I believe it is cheaper to manufacture for some reason. I also remember seeing a pic of the 05’s rear view mirrors and they had built in turn indicators. Very neat for a < $13,000 automobile. Whether we get that here however is another story. On top of all that, BA and a rudimentary FCD is std. on the 04’s and VSA will be available on the higher trims in the 05 MY! You cannot get these options on an Accord, let alone a much less expensive Civic. To receive a game gauge, you have to purchase an Accord EX-L w/ NAVI to the tune of $22,400 +. 4-channel VSA isn’t an option on any Accord or Civic available here in the states. Guess what Japan’s Fit has available to it? Keyless entry! And of course auto-climate Just goes to show us all how inexpensive these features are to the manufacturers.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Since it isn’t a Civic and the Civic is already on the smallish side in comparison to any number of actual compacts, charging $14K + no matter the options is a bit high imho. The 04/05 Aveo, although a POS given the embarrassment of an ICE in it (103 HP for a measly 35 mpg at best out on the highway driving a 2,350 # automobile) as well as lack of safety features even in the SV, Base/LS, or LS/LT trim is appalling. Still, you have to compare the Aveo, which can be had here in the Chicago area in SV package format for < $8,000 brand new, with the Fit because of its size alone. The Suzuki Aerio is another worth while 5 door competitor but they (Suzuki) pretend they can get $13 - $18K for one of them? I would hope the Fit will arrive at $13K or at least $13K after a bit of haggling as equipped in Asia and Europe including ABS, EBD, possibly VSA, turn signal mirrors, all-around airbags, and a sunroof. If they start pushing $14K +, you are not that far away from purchasing a brand new Toyota Camry LE w/ Auto (< $16,000 for an 04 LE here this weekend) or Accord LX w/ Auto ($17.1K for an 04). The other item is that the Euro and Asian equipped Fit’s/Jazz’s/Aria’s/City’s don’t receive the fuel economy they are most certainly capable of. The reasons why have been posted already. Should Honda decide that the Fit will receive less fuel economy then the much larger and heavier European based Accord iCDTi, then they won’t be seeing a dime of my hard earned $’s. I have hope however ;-)
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
As for the possibility of a Jazz/Fit listing for $13k with ABS, curtains, VSC, and moonroof, I think that is low odds. Consider that the Fit doesn't cost that much less to manufacture than a compact car like the Civic. Sure, there is some savings in steel, but not thousands of dollars worth. Now compare the MSRP of a Civic with all that equipment. Well, no, you can't because it doesn't exist yet. But the lowest-priced '04 Civic 4-door with ABS, side air bags, and moonroof is $18,000 MSRP. The lowest-priced '05 Matrix with ABS, side bags and curtains, and moonroof is $18,540 MSRP. Who knows what these will cost for the '06 MY, and with side curtains (on the Civic) and VSC (on both)? I'd look for a well-equipped Fit/Jazz with VSC and moonroof, plus the standard ABS and SABs/SACs, to be in the $15-16k range for list price. Discounts might be available eventually, but if gas prices stay up there I wouldn't count on big discounts on what should be a very popular car.
With this in mind, it should be possible for Honda to offer a base model (DX) with MSRP around $12K and an LX model around $14K. Civic could continue to start from about $14K and go up to $20K.
And speaking of size, Jazz is said to offer similar interior space as Civic.
___04 Civic EX’s have gone OTD for a little over $16K here near Chicago over the last 2 months. If the Jazz/Fit comes anywhere near this price (OTD, which is not MSRP), Chicagoan’s will wake up to this fact pretty quick.
___You are dead on about small cars = economy cars = reasonably priced/cheap cars. If Honda were to attempt to sell the Fit loaded up or not at $15 - $16K when you can pick up a brand new Camry LE w/ Auto or Civic EX for the same, what is the average Chicagoan going to purchase?
___Robertsmx:
And speaking of size, Jazz is said to offer similar interior space as Civic.
___That is just one of the reasons I am interested in one. Exterior wise however, it is about the size of an Aveo which is very small imho. Interior size alone doesn’t justify a ridiculous pricing structure. We shall see soon enough what Honda has in store in terms of trim and pricing
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
1.4 E: Jazz 10013, Civic 11013
1.6 VTEC SE: Jazz 12013, Civic 13013
1.7 CTDi SE: Jazz 13013, Civic 14013
Hard to tell what that will translate to in the U.S. market, because equipment will probably be different. But looking at the relative prices and considering what Honda charges for Civics in the U.S., I still see a $12k list price for a Fit/Jazz as highly unlikely. If Honda did that, you would have a long wait list for the Fit/Jazz, probably with large dealer markups.
___Very good research Are those numbers in British Pounds or converted to US $’s? It does appear as if the Fit/Jazz is only $1,000 difference compared to the Civic 5-door to the penny. I don’t know? A 2,100 # very small exterior automobile compared to a 2,600 # + automobile compared to a 3,150 # + automobile for $0 - $2,500 difference? I see a failure in the market place no matter how great the Fit/Jazz is reported to be at those kinds of prices. $15 to $16K OTD for one that is.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Why do people buy Mini Coopers for list price or over when they could by a Civic or Camry for less? The average Chicagoan may very well buy a Camry. The Chicagoans who want a small but roomy car with exceptional fuel economy and hatchback versatility might like the Fit/Jazz. In my area, a basic '04 Camry will set you back $17,500, so a loaded Fit/Jazz with VSC and moonroof for under $16k wouldn't be out of line IMO. I'd much rather have a Fit/Jazz at that price than a Camry, since I like small cars and I like the idea of the high fuel economy the Fit/Jazz will provide.
Correct numbers from Car magazine:
1.4 Jazz base model: 9013 GBP
1.4 Civic 5-door base model: 11013 GBP
I have no idea how the equipment compares between the Jazz 1.4 S model and the Civic 1.4 E model; I'll leave that for someone else to investigate so I can get back to my "homework" for the weekend.
BTW, the Jazz is one of the few cars of ANY price to which Car Magazine has given its five-star rating. Its capsule summary:
For: Spacious, clever, solid
Against: Pricey
Sum up: The boss supermini
___The 1.4 is actually a 1,339 cc ICE and is very similar to that used in the HCH minus lean burn. It produces 85 HP and 88 Ft-Lb’s of torque. UK for torque and US HCH specs for the HP. Remember that this ICE is propelling a 2,100 # automobile + driver. The SULEV rated 1.5 VTEC that is rumored to be heading to the states in the US based Fit is supposedly a 108 HP version. Torque specs are unknown but expect ~ 105 - 110 Ft-Lb’s. I don’t know much about the 1.6 although a hopped up 1.6L 160 HP i-VTEC is used in the Civic Si (same uni-body as the Fit/Jazz) IIRC?
http://www.hondacars.com/models/model_overview.asp?ModelName=Civi- c+Si
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___I don’t blame you in the least in regards to the Aveo. It is a POS. It is however a Jazz sized $8,000 - $12,000 POS.
___At $15K for a Jazz however, I would rather pay a touch above $17K for an 04 Honda Accord LX I would however love to purchase a Honda Jazz loaded up in the $13K range after some dealing. If not, an 05 Accord LX w/ all-around air-bags and ABS for $17.5K looks like a much better value once both are available for a side by side comparison in a few short months. Yes, side by side and this is where the sub-compacts fall by the way side no matter how much better the 46 mpg to 34 mpg out on the highway or 35 mpg to 24 mpg in the city look.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
That said, IMO, a two trim lineup ($12-14K) will do good.
You don't seem to understand that some people like driving small cars. They are fun to drive, turn on a dime, are easier to park, and more economical to buy and run. Why buy a car the size of the Accord when you don't need it? Bigger doesn't necessarily mean better value.
You don't seem to understand that some people like driving small cars. They are fun to drive, turn on a dime, are easier to park, and more economical to buy and run. Why buy a car the size of the Accord when you don't need it? Bigger doesn't necessarily mean better value.
___If you had a choice between a Compact Civic EX w/ Auto or Corolla LE w/ Auto for $1,000 less then a Honda Accord LX (all have similar equipment minus the EX’s sunroof but lack of side curtains), which would you purchase? If Bigger doesn’t necessarily mean better, make all of them the same price! The Accord is faster then both. It is larger then both. It is quieter then both. It is more comfortable then both. The only item is that its TCO is just a tad bit higher then both. If the price was the same, there wouldn’t be but a few Civic’s and Corolla’s sold.
___Now how about a Sub-Compact for only $2,500 less? It is one thing to pay $4,500 + less ($13K loaded up) vs. the much larger, much faster, much more comfortable ($17,500) automobile as then it is probably an economical buy. It is another thing altogether to pay only $2,500 less ($15K) because then it is not so economical and you more then likely won’t cover the TCO.
___The Jazz is a great car for those that own them overseas. It will be here as long as it is priced properly. If it arrives anywhere near what we can pick up an Accord or Civic EX for, it will be off many American’s radar screens and would have been off many radar screens overseas with a similar pricing structure. IIRC, the current Civic Si is based of the same platform as the Jazz but in a 3 door hatch. Honda sells very few even though they have a 160 HP VTEC attached. It is Honda’s outrageous MSRP that is killing them as it is a rather attractive car but not for $19K +. Someone will have to look up the wheelbase and track to verify the Civic Si uses the Jazz platform as I might be way out to lunch on that one?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
That said, IMO, a two trim lineup ($12-14K) will do good.
___I agree. And with a bit of a discount, $13 K loaded up would fit in my stable nicely Anymore, and it won’t as you can find great under invoice deals on Accord’s and Civic’s.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Of course not. They're smaller cars. You could say the same about diamonds - if a one-carat cost the same as a five-carat, how many one-carats would be sold? But a five-carat diamond is not the right application for an earring.
That's not the way pricing works, ever. I bought a sofa & loveseat last weekend. The loveseat was of the same quality as the sofa, same manufacturer, but smaller. It isn't better or worse than the sofa in any way - it's just smaller. And best of all, it fits.
Two analogies in one post. Huh. While the Jazz may not be for you, there are some people who will simply prefer to have it over an Accord or similar product.
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Besides the $2K or so that we saved, we also looked at fuel economy, and the smaller size. The Civic consistently gets us 30-32 mpg in city and the Accord, 24-25 mpg. Over four years, that’s an additional $1K in fuel savings.
In case of Jazz, the math would be easier. First of all, if MSRP on “LX” is $15K, compared to MSRP on Accord LX at $20K, we have a $5K difference right away. That’s substantial (33% premium on top of Jazz’s price tag!).
Now, you could say, nobody pays MSRP for Accord LX. True. A 10% “discount” off MSRP is logical (to get close to invoice pricing on just about any car), that puts us at about $18K for Accord LX. Do the same math for Jazz, and we may now be at $13.5K in that case, still a 4.5K difference.
And then, Jazz, with its 1.5/110 HP, has the potential to deliver 35-40 mpg in city. That can be a major consideration to many in their purchase. I know, it will be, in mine, especially if most of my driving involves city driving. After 60K miles, we may be talking about saving about 750 gallons of fuel, and that can amount to $1300-1700 in savings.
Plus, the utility of a hatchback is desirable to many buyers.
IIRC, the current Civic Si is based of the same platform as the Jazz but in a 3 door hatch. Honda sells very few even though they have a 160 HP VTEC attached. It is Honda’s outrageous MSRP that is killing them as it is a rather attractive car but not for $19K +. Someone will have to look up the wheelbase and track to verify the Civic Si uses the Jazz platform as I might be way out to lunch on that one?
You’re out to lunch on that one. :-)
Honda’s platforms
Global Economy Platform: Jazz/Fit, City
Global Compact Car Platform: Civic, RSX/Integra, CR-V, Element
Global Midsize Car Platform: Accord, TSX, TL, (2005) RL
Global Light Truck Platform: Odyssey, Pilot, MDX
Specialty Platforms: S2000 & NSX
Civic SI, like any other Civic across the globe, is based off the compact car platform. The economy platform is used for cheaper offerings, including Jazz/Fit and City and it also utilizes the same suspension set up that the CRX and the Civics from the 1980s used (Macpherson struts front, and torsion beam axle rear).
As for the Civic SI sales issues, it wasn’t the car itself, but it was flavoring of the car that affected the sales (besides that it wasn’t offered with automatic in a market that demands it).
___Why the personal comments?
coming from someone who could have purchased an Accord but instead purchased the slower, smaller, less comfortable Corolla, and who also owns one of the smallest cars on the road, the Insight. It appears to me that you too prefer small cars over midsized cars like the Accord.
___The 03 Corolla works well for the $15,200 I paid. I couldn’t pick up the new 03 Accord LX for < $18,500 at the time. Would I purchase the smaller Fit for similar? I wouldn’t purchase an 05 Corolla for similar today given the deals available on the Camry and Accord’s so that should answer your question. Maybe you are one of the few that would? Given my experience with the MDX and Insight, the Accord I4 when setup will be good for almost 50 mpg on the highway with my style of driving. The Fit should be good for ~ 60 - 62 mpg but at a slightly slower speed. Not enough delta although I am a mostly highway type driver.
___As for the Insight, a $10K automobile receiving 105 mpg over the last 5 months of commuting miles with just me in it? What would you purchase for a 180 mile/day commute? A Hyundai? Even today it is still worth almost $10K?
___Given your argument from above, place the Accord/Camry on the showroom floor for just $1,500 - $2,500 more then the Fit or even the equivalent. It doesn’t matter how much one could justify the Fit’s size or even fuel economy, the Accord and Camry will be the ones purchased in so large a quantity as to make the Fit a non-event (much < 50,000 sold) if it is made available in the $15K + range. A sub-compact/compact is after all a subcompact/compact in comparison to the true midsize. Both will get you where you need to go except one is far safer and far more comfortable. If the Delta between the two isn’t significant, the lesser automobile will usually be stuck languishing on the lot.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___We are not speaking about one carat to five carats for an earring but of a one carat, 34 facets, F color, and SI2 clarity vs. an earring of 1.3 carats, 58 facets, D color, and VVS2 clarity. Which earring would you rather have for a difference of just 10 - 15%?
___Some are going to love the Fit and I like it on paper without ever having seen or driven one in person. The issue however is at what price point(s) is it going to be released? Some here think $14 - $16K is about right. I personally think it is too high given all the compact and mid-size automobiles available in and around that price range. After discounts in the low $13K range relatively well equipped? Now you are speaking my language. When it first arrives, we will more then likely see MSRP type numbers and with that, you really have to be thinking with your heart instead of your head if it is indeed a $14 - $16K automobile given what a new Camry or Accord can actually be purchased for.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
In case of Jazz, the math would be easier. First of all, if MSRP on “LX” is $15K, compared to MSRP on Accord LX at $20K, we have a $5K difference right away. That’s substantial (33% premium on top of Jazz’s price tag!).
___Were you interested in picking up a brand new 04 Accord LX w/ Auto for $17,100 including destination? There is a Honda dealership here in Chicago that you can pick one up for that price tomorrow morning. I am not talking MSRP to MSRP because you and I won’t pay MSRP. For the Fit, there might be that issue when it is first released. Even afterwards, the markup on it will probably be smaller then that of the Civic which is smaller then the Accord.
Example:
Civic LX w/ Auto: $1,389 difference between MSRP and Invoice
Accord LX w/ Auto: $2,007 difference between MSRP and Invoice
___What do you think the markup on a 2006 Fit will be? $1,000 tops is a good guesstimate.
___So if you can pick up a Fit for $15 + K or an Accord LX for $17,100, which are you going to purchase. At $13K, the numbers are interesting enough to sway me as has already been mentioned.
___In regards to the Civic Si/Fit, yes, except for the following?
Civic Si/Civic 4 dr. sedan/Civic 2 dr. coupe
WB: 101.9”, 103.1”, 103.1”
Length: 165.7”, 175.4”, 175.4”
Width: 67.5”, 67.5”, 67.5”
___When seeing the 3 Civic’s (2 of them side by side), the Si looked awfully small for some reason? I looked up the Jazz’s spec and it does indeed have a much shorter WB and length then any of the Civic’s above.
Jazz
WB: 96.5”
Length: 150.8”
Width: 65.9”
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I think a loaded Fit at $15,000 MSRP, equipped as we have been discussing with ABS, SAB/SAC, VSC, and moonroof, would be an acceptable price. Considering that two years ago a Corolla could cost, at discount, over $15k without SAC or VSC even being available, that is a high level of equipment for the money IMO. Would I like the Fit to cost less? Sure. I'd like it to list for $4999 with a $3000 rebate. :-) But that is not realistic. Nor is expecting a Honda to be priced in the same ballpark as competing Korean models like the Accent, Aveo, and Rio. Honda has proven over the years that many buyers will pay a premium for Honda's reputation for quality and reliability. Why should they slap a bargain-basement price on the Fit/Jazz? I expect they will price it starting at least $1000, maybe $1500, over its Korean competition, as they do now with other models, and there will be no shortage of buyers.
Now if Honda surprises me and prices loaded Fit/Jazzes at $12k, I will be very happy--assuming I want to wait in a long line for the car.
And I couldn't compare "market value" of a car that hasn't been officially declared to "deal" available on a clearance model. If it comes down to it, I'm going to be targeting at least 10% off MSRP anyway, Fit, Civic or Accord.
2. The US market will likely NOT get the 1.4 engine because 0-60 acceleration in the 12 second range is not desirable to American drivers. The more powerful 1.5-liter i-VTEC engine rated at 108-110 bhp sold on certain model Japanese market Fits will be the sole engine for the US market Fit.
3. I am guessing that the Honda Fit we get for the US market may end up being an all-new car, a car that will replace the Fit/Jazz sold in Japan and Europe. It will be a slightly bigger car, designed to better accommodate American-sized passengers. Why an all-new car? Note what I said above about Honda taking the Civic more upmarket.
Fit’s presence isn’t going to affect placement of Civic. That’s my opinion. Fit is going to address a position that Civic left with departure of the low cost hatchback offerings (CX/DX/VX) only this time around with more features.