I'm thinking Honda won't have trouble meeting CA emissions since they're always ahead of all the other manufacturers in meeting or exceeding them.
I think the 2006 label is the clue. I would expect to see it fall of 2005 since Honda doesn't ever release early in the model year. They seem to be a very consistant company that stays with a formula they know works.
The sucky thing is that we will most likely not get the diesel because the cleaner diesel fuel in the US won't be around until 2006 and that timelines is too close. Without that, they can never get CA, MA, VT, NY emissions approval.
According to a blurb in the November 2004 issue of Automobile magazine, Honda will intro the current generation of the Fit in the US some time in 2005. The blurb justified bringing in the current Fit and NOT the next generation Fit to keep the cost down to better compete with Scion. I think the blurb was totally wrong about this--I've never seen Honda keep an old model in one geographical locale when a totally new model is available elsewhere. I don't think it would do Honda's reputation any good to bring "last year's model" to the US when the next gen will be available worldwide in 2006.
On the Diesel Fit front, Honda has not made any announcements that there is even a diesel Fit in development. We can only hope that this comes to fruition, and to the US.
A diesel fit is available in every market I have looked at the Fit.... maybe not in japan though. It's only a question of modfications to meet strict CA emissions standards (which then requires ultra low sulphur diesel).
Our local community (Markham, ON) newspaper has recently featured both the Honda Fit/Jazz and the FR-V. Now we know the Fit/Jazz is coming, but the FR-V? Do they know something we don't?
Huh? Which markets are you referring to? As far as I have seen from looking at the specs on the Honda UK, France, Germany, Australia, Japan, Singapore, Malaysia, Brazil, Argentina, and many more, the Fit/Jazz is not yet a diesel. Are you maybe confused because the engine in the Fit/Jazz is the i-DSI (Intelligent Dual Sequential Ignition)--which is a gasoline engine?
If there is a Fit/Jazz Diesel already, please point us all to the place where we can see it.
Honda's only diesel vehicles are sold in Europe... Civic CTDi (uses Isuzu 1.7) Accord i-CTDi (Honda 2.2)
CR-V and FR-V will be using the Honda diesel this year.
Jazz uses two engines at the moment: 1.3-liter i-DSI: high fuel economy/low emissions engine shared with Civic Hybrid, currently standard engine in Europe 1.5-liter VTEC: the "performance" engine, currently standard in the Japanese market.
Honda recently unveiled a 1.2-liter i-DSI for the European market.
In the USA, I suspect, the 1.5 (or its replacement) will be the standard engine.
Because the Fit will be redesigned soon, I think it's likely that the world premiere of the redesigned Honda Fit could come as early as the 2005 Detroit International Auto Show--just in time for the Fit to reach the US market as a 2006 model! :-) Honda will unveil both five-door hatchback and four-door sedan versions, the former to compete against the Scion xA/xB hatchbacks and the latter to compete against the Toyota Echo and small Korean cars.
By the way, Honda has an engine called the K20B rated at around 155 bhp (SAE) that is found on a number of Honda cars sold in Japan. Essentially an i-VTEC engine with direct fuel injection, we may just see the 1.5-liter version of this engine (K15B?) on the US-market Honda Fit, probably rated around 115-120 bhp (SAE).
Since the ECHO has virtually disappeared from the U.S., and the Koreans are moving more towards hatchbacks (based on spy photos of the next-gen Accent and Rio), I question what competition the 4-door Jazz/Fit will go after--and whether it will steal sales away from the Civic.
I do think Honda will sell the four-door Fit sedan in the USA, mostly because Americans still have a strong preference for a vehicle with a real trunk (that's why the Civic Coupe was developed specifically with the US market in mind).
A little clarification: my guess on the engine for the US-market Honda Fit will probably be something based on the new L-series engine block but with the i-VTEC valvetrain and direct fuel injection found on the K20B engine, rated at 115-120 bhp like I suggested above. It'll probably be called L15B.
Jazz/Fit are 5-dr HB. Four door versions designed for Asian markets like India and Thailand is called "City".
Regardless, it will allow Honda to compete in a market segment that was served by Civic (HB) in the past. So, Jazz will in fact complement Civic, and if some buyers do choose Jazz over Civic for any reason, the bottomline would be that a buyer is choosing between two Hondas.
The trunk preference seems to be waning, based on the emergence over the past 2-3 years of many 5-door models like the Elantra GT, Spectra5, Mazda6, Protege5/Mazda3, Reno, Focus ZX5, Matrix/Vibe, Aveo, Malibu Maxx, Scion xA and xB, Prius, and of course the venerable Golf. Just about everyone except Honda--until the Jazz/Fit arrives here. In Europe, there is a strong preference for hatchbacks. OTOH, the trunk preference is still extremely strong in China, where it is a sign of prestige.
Those HB you mention are a rare sight though. At least where I live. There is a market, but not necessarily a big one.
Honda noticed this in the mid-90s and took the Civic HB off the shelf. Now we do get the Si as HB, but it is a manual transmission only, at the upper end of compact car spectrum. Jazz/Fit should do well because they will have what people (albeit limited number of) will want including a lower MSRP (I suspect, $12-15K).
Not a big market? I wonder then why Chevrolet, Pontiac, Ford, Toyota, Chrysler, Mazda, Suzuki, Hyundai, and Kia have brought many new 5-door hatchback models to market in the past few years, and why Honda is entering this market next year? Automakers don't tend to introduce new models unless they think there is a market for them. I see lots of these hatchbacks where I live. The Matrix/Vibe, Focus, and PT Cruiser are particularly popular based on my sightings.
I think we should separate the 3-door hatchback market from the 5-door hatchback market. As Honda found out in the 90s, the market for 3-door hatchbacks is not that big, and they canned both the Civic and Accord 3-doors. Since then, a few manufacturers have had some success selling sporty 3-door hatches like the Mini Cooper, RSX, Tiburon, C-Class, Eclipse, tC, and GTI. But these are not meant to be mass-market cars. A few low-end 3-doors have done fairly well lately, such as the Focus ZX3 and Accent. But the 5-door models is where the volume is, due to their versatility. If someone can own only one car, a 5-door hatchback or small wagon makes a lot of sense. I agree if the Jazz/Fit is priced right, it will sell well. It's something Honda has never offered in the U.S.: a 5-door hatchback. The closest they came was the Civic and Accord wagons from the 80s and early 90s. The Jazz/Fit is actually similar in style to the last Civic wagon sold here, but a little shorter and without AWD. I remember seeing a lot of those little wagons on the streets of the Twin Cities back then.
Honda was in the market, and still is in the market (albeit a more focused one at the moment, with the Si).
How big is the market, anyway? Could you tell me what percentage of Hyundai Elantra is sold in 5-door HB form? I have seen several Mazda3 on the road, not a single HB yet.
Recall that I was distinguishing between the 5-door and 3-door markets. Honda is in the 3-door market now, albeit in a niche way. The Jazz (best name) will get them back into the 5-door market.
How big is the market? Big enough to attract all the automakers I mentioned to bring to market all the 5-door cars I mentioned. And I probably left some off the list (like the Aerio). Toyota alone sold all the 5-door Priuses it could this year, and is doubling production for next year, up to 100,000 just for North America. That's just one 5-door hatchback. Hyundai just expanded its 5-door lineup to add a GLS variant of the Elantra hatch. Before, the Elantra was available in 5-door form only in the more expensive GT trim, which I expect cost it sales. With the 5-door Elantra now starting at about $14k before rebates and discounts, that will undoubtedly help sales.
I don't have time to look up sales figures for 5-door hatchbacks, but if you are curious about it and want to research it and let us know what you find, that would be great. I'm not even sure if automakers break out 5-door variants from others, when they are considered the same model (e.g. Aerio, Elantra, Mazda3).
Unnecessary. I've long been proponent of Honda offerings its 3 and 5 door HB here in the USA. But, I also realize that people still prefer coupe/sedan form for some reason.
I think it's a perception thing, a stigma attached to "hatchbacks." For many people in the U.S., "hatchbacks" are only for college students or young women, not for self-respecting professional people. I exaggerate to make the point, I am not trying to offend anyone and it's certainly not my opinion (I own a hatchback). Notice that few automakers call their hatchbacks "hatchbacks." They're "5-doors" or "liftbacks" (Toyota's term) or "sport wagons" or anything but a hatchback. I think in this era of $2.50/gallon gas, people are beginning to realize how practical the hatchback configuration is--you can haul as much as in many SUVs, but get better fuel economy and have a car that drives like a car, in some cases drives like a sports sedan. Many hatchbacks are also economical to buy too, compared with SUVs. We are waking up to something that drivers in Europe have realized for a long time.
I agree with Backy's points, especially the distinction between 3 and 5-door hatches. I would add that in addition to the status perceptions, sedans often seem quieter and thus more solid. The more formal rooflines of sedans, and the sporty/tapered roof/trunk line of 2-door coupes seems to go over better here too.
The practicality of hatches has been lost on a generation of North American buyers who can easily afford the next size up (e.g. minivans, SUVs or pickups). Fortunately, today's youth market doesn't have the same hang ups about the 5-door hatch configuration.
A hatchback version of the Fit/Jazz would be an excellent idea since the Echo Hatchback 3 and 5 doors are selling SO well in Canada. I don't understand why Honda waited that long until deciding to bring their sub-compact line-up here. Why didn't they see the Echo that's still doing so well even after 6 years on the market??? Wake up Honda!
It depends on how long you'd like to wait. The Jazz won't be here for a while, but the Civic is available right now. Just walk into your Honda dealer and look at how many Civics are sitting there.
thanks, jchan2, but i dont live in the US. the jazz is available here in jerusalem (http://www.honda.co.il/content/CarModels/Jazz.asp) and we test drove it yesterday. it is the hatchback version, iDSI - 1.4; v. the civic, which is a more powerful engine, slightly bigger...
they do have the civic in stock, and we would have to wait a couple weeks for the jazz (2005 just got here). i'm concerned that the jazz might be too small to handle the steep inclines that we have to do on a regular basis going in and out of the city (from a mountainous area, to below sea level), and that if we wanted to use it as a family car, that the civic would be better. other than that, i think the jazz is great -- i like that the seats fold down and the flexibility that affords in terms of how to use the space. (btw, they finally got smart -- on our honda 'shuttle', the old model oddessy in the US, the middle bench folds in the middle -- so if you want two seats, you need to put them all up. here, it is a 2/1 configuration.)
The Civic 5 DR with the 1.6 VTEC has 22.8 HP/lb and the Jazz with the 1.4 has 26 HP/lb, so clearly the Civic has more power. To my way of thinking though, the superiority of the Civic in power is more than offset by the Jazz's superior gas mileage, larger total cargo capacity and shorter length (making it easier to park). I just think the Jazz is a more efficient package, and that is more desirable for me. Granted, the roads up to Jerusalem from are pretty steep, but for my shekels, I'd take the Jazz in a heartbeat.
Jazz is sold with two engine choices at the moment (curb weight varies from 2150 lb to 2250 lb). 1.3 i-DSI: 86 HP 1.5 VTEC: 110 HP
For performance, you’ve got the 1.5, and for exceptional fuel economy, the 1.3. In most markets, fuel economy is a priority, and Jazz delivers that. In the UK market, Civic 5-door HB Diesel (5-speed manual only) Base On the Road Price: 14.1K Combined Fuel Rating: 56.5 mpg
Jazz 5-door HB 1.3 (CVT-7 or 5-speed manual) Base On the Road Price: 9.1K Combined Fuel Rating: 49.6 mpg
Both cars can do 0-60 in about 11.5 seconds. Honda is about to release a 1.2-liter i-DSI for Jazz in Europe. In Japanese market, Jazz gets the 110 HP 1.5 as the standard engine.
I suspect, when Jazz is redesigned (next year), it will also be sent stateside and perhaps with an engine that is due to replace the 1.5, or even the same engine.
But, my curiosity is whether Honda decides to offer a Jazz hybrid here, as a mileage leader to replace Insight.
I'd go with the Civic hatchback, if they have it there. (I think they have a 5 door hatchback in Europe) Clearly the extra room and hill climbing power is worth the extra $$$$.
At the Detroit International Auto Show in 2005, Honda will officially unveil the replacement for the Honda Fit now sold in Japan and Europe--and it will be the first Fit model to be sold in the USA.
Slotted below the Honda Civic (which will go upmarket when the next-generation Civic is unveiled in the late summer of 2005), the second-generation Fit will be slightly larger than the current car (to better accommodate American-sized passengers and to accommodate standard side-curtain airbags), will be available in the US market in both four-door sedan and five-door hatchback editions, and for the US market will be powered by a new, 1.5-liter i-VTEC I-4 with direct fuel injection (think K20B engine technology but using newer L-series engine block) rated at 115-120 bhp that offers excellent fuel economy and full CARB Partial-Zero Emissions Vehicle (PZEV) emissions compliance. The transmission choices for the new Honda Fit will offer both six-speed manual and either CVT with seven-ratio mode or the new Antonov 6-7 speed automatic transmission (I believe that Honda has licensed the Antonov automatic transmission design).
AAD isn't a CVT, it is like a traditional 6-8 speed automatic without a torque converter. The current Fit/Jazz uses Honda's CVT with option to switch to 7-speed mode.
Sedan or hatchback... i-VTEC with 115-120 hp... excellent fuel economy... PZEV emissions... six-speed manual, CVT, or 6-7 speed automatic... costs less than a Civic.
OK, so tell me again: once the Fit (they chose the wrong name, IMO) is available in the U.S., WHY WOULD ANYONE BUY A CIVIC?????
Unless the next-gen Civic comes to the U.S. in 5-door form, the new, upsized Fit will have more space than the Civic. With 115-120 hp, the Fit has more power than most Civics sold today, and will likely weigh less--so better power-to-weight ratio. The new Civic may well have more power; it will have to, to keep up with competition and to justify the higher price over the Fit. But how much power doesn one need in an economy car? As for more refinement, that remains to be seen. The Jazz/Fits I've seen overseas look plenty refined.
The marketing problem I think Honda faces here is that the Civic has always been perceived as an economy car. Moving it upscale will put it close to or over $20k in full trim (it's almost $19k now). That's getting out of economy-car territory, to the point where it will overlap with Accord pricing (and lots of other cars). The new Civic will have to be one great car to pull that off, IMO. When one can get a car with the attributes of the Fit for much less money, I for one would go that route instead of the Civic, and I expect many other buyers to do so also.
Fit/Jazz is indeed a surprisingly large car on the inside, for its size and is fairly comparable to Civic HB (based on input from people who live in markets where both vehicles are sold). But, at no point you should believe that Civic will remain as is, and Jazz will grow to Civic levels (in terms of power and space).
Jazz/Fit is based off Honda’s global economy platform, designed to support cheaper, entry level sub-compact vehicles. It is designed along the lines most economy European hatchbacks are, with cost and space saver chassis layout (Macpherson struts front, and torsion beam axle rear suspension). This is like going back to the basics of the old CRX (no wonder the rumors of CRX’s return are re-surfacing).
Civic is based off a superior and larger platform, and it left the entry level badge a while ago, with the departure of the economical Civic CX and DX hatchbacks. That’s the area Jazz is supposed to address. And since Jazz is based off the relatively inexpensive platform, it can offer more features for the $$$.
Civic isn’t going to stay put in power department either. I suspect that Honda will continue to deliver 19-20:1 weight to power ratio in mainstream models, regardless of it being Jazz, Civic or Accord. So, Jazz will likely have 110-115 HP, Civic may have 130-140 HP, while Accord continues to have 160 HP at its disposal. But, there may be an overlap somewhere, with Jazz intruding into Civic territory, and Civic doing the same into Accord territory. This isn’t a unique situation.
As long as people buying Jazz or Civic, and Civic over Accord, I’m sure Honda would be alright, than to see them leave for another brand for lack of choices. And as I have mentioned earlier, Jazz presence is unlikely to bump Civic up in price. However, additional features like standard curtain airbags might add to the MSRP of the Civic. With Jazz, sitting down for economy minded buyers, Honda can still move Civic from $13K to $14K with little to no impact, and in all likelihood, gain from it. At the top end, Civic could go on to $22K with hybrid option.
If Accord can range from $17K to $30K, why couldn’t Civic do the same in $14K-$22K price range?
The problem here is that we are speculating about two cars that will not be in their present form in the next year or so. Will the Fit get independent rear suspension? Will Civic get 140 hp (and maybe its double-wishbone front suspension back), or even more power so it can compete in power with less-expensive Mazdas and Hyundais?
Civic has sold well even at a price premium because it has had no Honda competition in the U.S. Once another quality Honda small car becomes available, and the Civic goes "upmarket", it will be interesting to see how Civic fares. I think the Civic will need to become much faster, a little bigger, and higher content (e.g. bring back the double wishbones) to compete as an upmarket model against the likes of the Mazda3s and all-new Golf/Jetta.
We’re after all discussing in future vehicles thread, after all, so it is all about speculations, at least until we know more specific details.
Honda’s global economy platform has semi-independent rear suspension (similar to that in Corolla and Prius) and I expect it to stay as is for good reasons. It is compact, cheap and can offer good handling capability. OTOH, a double wishbone rear suspension offered in global compact platform (like it is in Civic) is more expensive and takes more space, not advisable in small cars. And I expect Civic to continue using it, at least as long as it shares the platform with cars like RSX.
In the front, I don’t expect Civic to go back to double wishbones, after all, how many automakers are offering that set up in mid size cars today, much less compact cars (where space and cost has less tolerance).
As for power, Honda is likely to stay competitive not beat everybody, especially in this class. There may be top end models that offer similar or more power than most of the competition, however.
As for Civic competition, it has always existed, albeit in different forms. In fact, Civic gained popularity in the mid-90s when there was more competition, and as gas prices continue to dwindle one way or the other, a perception of car like Civic is going to help regardless. There is usually a direct relationship between Civic sales and gas prices, both seem to go up at the same time. Image is still a very critical part of the marketing process.
As for moving upmarket, Civic needs updates. The interior has changed little since the 1996 model launch, the engine is virtually the same (additional 68 cc displacement, that’s it). Over this period, Honda has focused more on its light truck lineup, and since that process is all set, I expect the attention to move back to the cars, starting with Civic.
I don’t see a reason why Honda wouldn’t give the Civic upgrades along the same lines they have been doing with Accord. Mainstream trims with reasonable power, features and good fuel economy, and upper trims to compete at a different level. And that, by itself is all the “upscale” treatment that the Civic is going to get.
Cars like Mazda3 and Jetta have a limited appeal. If Honda had to sell only 80K units of Civics per year, I bet it would be looking at Civic from a completely different angle.
Mainstream trims with reasonable power, features and good fuel economy, and upper trims to compete at a different level.
Well, that won't be enough for me to get me to fork over the extra few thousand dollars for a Civic vs. a Fit. Or, for that matter, a Civic competitor like the Mazda3s, which offers class-leading power, class-leading handling, class-leading styling (IMO), class-leading features, and good fuel economy to boot. With a high-quality, low-priced small Honda like the Fit coming here, and with better competition every day (a new Elantra and Sentra, and the Cobalt will probably all be out before the next-gen Civic arrives), the Civic is going to need to improve by large leaps to keep its sales at current levels.
Wonder why Mazda3 and Jetta have a limited appeal? Because they are very good, relatively high-priced small cars in a sea of very good, low-priced small cars. If people are going to spend over $18k on a car, why not get an Accord or Camry or Altima or Sonata or Malibu or other mid-sized car instead? Once Civic edges into that price territory, perhaps we will see Civic have limited appeal also? Maybe they will be looking at it from a completely different angle!
One of the reasons the Civic is still very popular is because of the reliability and resale value. But the other reason that I see (selling Hondas) is that there is no other coupe on the market that offers the same refinement. The current Cavalier/Sunfire combo sure doesn't (their only attraction is a bargain basement price). The Mazda3, Sentra, Corolla, Elantra, Spectra, Neon, Lancer, Jetta, or Rio do not come in coupe models. The closest competition for it may be the Focus hatch, the Saturn Ion, and the Golf, but I found that traditional Honda buyers won't consider those as they're not "Japanese" brands.
I think when the Fit arrives it will appeal to a slightly different demographic, and it shouldn't affect sales either of the Civic coupes, or even sedans, as many people still prefer cars with normal trunks. If anything the Fit might attract new customers who weren't even looking at Civics before because of the versatility. We'll just have to see.
And the only reason the current Civic Si (SiR in Canada) is not as big of a seller as the normal Civics is the higher price, and no automatic (because of course it's marketed as an enthusiast car).
Hyundai's Elantra-based coupe is called the Tiburon and has a V6 option. There's also the Scion tC coupe that starts loaded at $17k, and the new Cobalt coupe (should be much more competitive than the Cavafire). There's the Eclipse also.
I agree the Fit won't affect sales of Civic coupes (the tC might, when it arrives in volume). If the Civic coupe increases in price any more, however, it will start running into competition with Honda's own RSX. But a post earlier stated the Fit would be available as a 4-door sedan, so I am wondering how that would affect Civic sedan sales.
I don't see why Honda will move Civic up in terms of pricing, may be just a little to keep up with the annual increase, and may be the addition of side curtain airbags.
Fit/Jazz would allow Honda to compete in a different class, a place where Civic once did (not does).
As for tC, after the initial frenzy, I doubt it will continue to be a major player against Civic coupe, especially if gas prices stay where they are. I question Toyota's decision to put 2.4-liter I-4 in the tC if they were to appeal to a younger buyer (Civic Coupe buyer is among the youngest in the new market). At $2/gallon, 23-24 mpg city mileage doesn't sound very appealing when compared to a car that can get 30-32 mpg. That has been a long term strength of Civic, and I see it continue with the next generation while the competition tries to carve its own niche.
If Honda can move the Civic "upmarket", which I believe you conjectured earlier, without raising its price, that would be great news for Civic fans. For example, if the next Civic coupe has a 200+ hp engine as mentioned by MT, and the price is the same as today's coupe, that would kill the competition.
As for the tC, since it offers considerably more power, performance, and luxury than the current Civic coupe, for less money, I don't see the "frenzy" abating anytime soon. Those people who want maximum fuel economy will buy a Fit/Jazz; those who want performance can buy a tC or, if the next Civic offers more power, a Civic coupe.
But more power isn’t the end game! Tiburon arrived with a bang, but it appears to be a very slow seller. I have seen a tC on the road, and if not for the headlamp ripped off BMW, I would have confused it for a Subaru (front) and Chevrolet Cobalt (rear). I would not place my bet solely on power for $$$ in this class, not in mainstream offerings.
And that is exactly where 200 HP Civic comes into play. It isn’t going to be a mainstream model to carry the sales. It will simply satisfy who need more than a regular Civic offers, while most buyers will expect Civic to deliver its promises, durability, high resale and high fuel economy with decent performance. These were the primary reasons my wife wanted a Civic, and in over four years of ownership, the car hasn’t disappointed us.
I simply don’t see why Honda would move Civic upmarket. It will add to the cost. Simply messing up the balance can hurt one of the best sellers. Civic needs evolutionary changes, especially cosmetic (on the inside which has remained virtually unchanged since MY1996 launch), and a small bump in engine displacement, hence power, but without affecting fuel economy.
It seems to be a big focus for the automakers. Earlier, you conjectured that Honda would add power to both the next-gen Fit and Civic. Toyota bumped up the power on the latest Corolla. Nissan added high-powered versions of the Sentra. Chevy boosted power in the Cavalier and Sunfire and will have a high-powered version of the Cobalt. Saturn added power when it came out with the ION and now has a high-powered version of it. Ford boosted standard power on the Focus. Mazda boosted power when the Mazda3 replaced the Protege. Kia boosted horsepower on its new Spectra. Hyundai's next-gen Elantra will use a new engine with more horsepower. And so on.
The reason Honda would move Civic upmarket (e.g. equipping it with a higher powered standard engine and a 200+ hp option) is to better differentiate it from the Fit and to better compete with small cars like the Mazda3. Automakers like Mazda have figured out how to add power without affecting fuel economy or price. Honda will need to do the same. With the Fit coming, they can afford to add power to the Civic since the Fit will be the fuel economy champ of the Honda lineup (for regular ICE cars anyway).
I firmly believe that automakers want their product to stand out in some way. One way, perhaps more difficult, would be to challenge the established competition in their own grounds. In case of Civic, for automakers like Kia/Hyundai and Mazda, that would be trying to sell car based on fuel economy, high resale and reliability (perceived or not). In the end, low overall cost of ownership (initial MSRP affects this aspect only a little).
The easier way out is to offer something the established competition doesn’t. But, does that appeal to the market as much? That remains debatable. Horsepower is the last thing Honda has to worry about. The company is more than capable of delivering obscene amount of horses in any car, but sometimes marketing needs outweigh the need to advertise.
In case of Civic, Honda doesn’t need to go back to the drawing boards to challenge a winning formula. I doubt Honda would pursue HP game if it can’t continue the bottom-line that defines the Civic and its appeal.
Civics has always had competition with more power. But the cars that people seem to remember more fondly are those little hatchbacks with just 60-70 HP that delivered 40-50 mpg.
Bringing in Fit/Jazz should result in a new fuel economy champ, but that doesn’t mean Honda needs to forget about Civic. The company certainly didn’t forget about the same in Accord, anyway. Perhaps Civic HX will become redundant, and give way to even more economical Jazz/Fit lineup.
This will be like going back to the days when Civic offered a combination of high fuel economy HB/coupe/sedans.
Comments
I think the 2006 label is the clue. I would expect to see it fall of 2005 since Honda doesn't ever release early in the model year. They seem to be a very consistant company that stays with a formula they know works.
The sucky thing is that we will most likely not get the diesel because the cleaner diesel fuel in the US won't be around until 2006 and that timelines is too close. Without that, they can never get CA, MA, VT, NY emissions approval.
On the Diesel Fit front, Honda has not made any announcements that there is even a diesel Fit in development. We can only hope that this comes to fruition, and to the US.
If there is a Fit/Jazz Diesel already, please point us all to the place where we can see it.
Civic CTDi (uses Isuzu 1.7)
Accord i-CTDi (Honda 2.2)
CR-V and FR-V will be using the Honda diesel this year.
Jazz uses two engines at the moment:
1.3-liter i-DSI: high fuel economy/low emissions engine shared with Civic Hybrid, currently standard engine in Europe
1.5-liter VTEC: the "performance" engine, currently standard in the Japanese market.
Honda recently unveiled a 1.2-liter i-DSI for the European market.
In the USA, I suspect, the 1.5 (or its replacement) will be the standard engine.
By the way, Honda has an engine called the K20B rated at around 155 bhp (SAE) that is found on a number of Honda cars sold in Japan. Essentially an i-VTEC engine with direct fuel injection, we may just see the 1.5-liter version of this engine (K15B?) on the US-market Honda Fit, probably rated around 115-120 bhp (SAE).
A little clarification: my guess on the engine for the US-market Honda Fit will probably be something based on the new L-series engine block but with the i-VTEC valvetrain and direct fuel injection found on the K20B engine, rated at 115-120 bhp like I suggested above. It'll probably be called L15B.
Regardless, it will allow Honda to compete in a market segment that was served by Civic (HB) in the past. So, Jazz will in fact complement Civic, and if some buyers do choose Jazz over Civic for any reason, the bottomline would be that a buyer is choosing between two Hondas.
Honda noticed this in the mid-90s and took the Civic HB off the shelf. Now we do get the Si as HB, but it is a manual transmission only, at the upper end of compact car spectrum. Jazz/Fit should do well because they will have what people (albeit limited number of) will want including a lower MSRP (I suspect, $12-15K).
I think we should separate the 3-door hatchback market from the 5-door hatchback market. As Honda found out in the 90s, the market for 3-door hatchbacks is not that big, and they canned both the Civic and Accord 3-doors. Since then, a few manufacturers have had some success selling sporty 3-door hatches like the Mini Cooper, RSX, Tiburon, C-Class, Eclipse, tC, and GTI. But these are not meant to be mass-market cars. A few low-end 3-doors have done fairly well lately, such as the Focus ZX3 and Accent. But the 5-door models is where the volume is, due to their versatility. If someone can own only one car, a 5-door hatchback or small wagon makes a lot of sense. I agree if the Jazz/Fit is priced right, it will sell well. It's something Honda has never offered in the U.S.: a 5-door hatchback. The closest they came was the Civic and Accord wagons from the 80s and early 90s. The Jazz/Fit is actually similar in style to the last Civic wagon sold here, but a little shorter and without AWD. I remember seeing a lot of those little wagons on the streets of the Twin Cities back then.
How big is the market, anyway? Could you tell me what percentage of Hyundai Elantra is sold in 5-door HB form? I have seen several Mazda3 on the road, not a single HB yet.
How big is the market? Big enough to attract all the automakers I mentioned to bring to market all the 5-door cars I mentioned. And I probably left some off the list (like the Aerio). Toyota alone sold all the 5-door Priuses it could this year, and is doubling production for next year, up to 100,000 just for North America. That's just one 5-door hatchback. Hyundai just expanded its 5-door lineup to add a GLS variant of the Elantra hatch. Before, the Elantra was available in 5-door form only in the more expensive GT trim, which I expect cost it sales. With the 5-door Elantra now starting at about $14k before rebates and discounts, that will undoubtedly help sales.
I don't have time to look up sales figures for 5-door hatchbacks, but if you are curious about it and want to research it and let us know what you find, that would be great. I'm not even sure if automakers break out 5-door variants from others, when they are considered the same model (e.g. Aerio, Elantra, Mazda3).
The practicality of hatches has been lost on a generation of North American buyers who can easily afford the next size up (e.g. minivans, SUVs or pickups). Fortunately, today's youth market doesn't have the same hang ups about the 5-door hatch configuration.
It all seemed to so obvious to me.. what could go wrong?! :-)
thanks!
Wake up Honda!
they do have the civic in stock, and we would have to wait a couple weeks for the jazz (2005 just got here). i'm concerned that the jazz might be too small to handle the steep inclines that we have to do on a regular basis going in and out of the city (from a mountainous area, to below sea level), and that if we wanted to use it as a family car, that the civic would be better. other than that, i think the jazz is great -- i like that the seats fold down and the flexibility that affords in terms of how to use the space.
(btw, they finally got smart -- on our honda 'shuttle', the old model oddessy in the US, the middle bench folds in the middle -- so if you want two seats, you need to put them all up. here, it is a 2/1 configuration.)
1.3 i-DSI: 86 HP
1.5 VTEC: 110 HP
For performance, you’ve got the 1.5, and for exceptional fuel economy, the 1.3. In most markets, fuel economy is a priority, and Jazz delivers that. In the UK market,
Civic 5-door HB Diesel (5-speed manual only)
Base On the Road Price: 14.1K
Combined Fuel Rating: 56.5 mpg
Jazz 5-door HB 1.3 (CVT-7 or 5-speed manual)
Base On the Road Price: 9.1K
Combined Fuel Rating: 49.6 mpg
Both cars can do 0-60 in about 11.5 seconds. Honda is about to release a 1.2-liter i-DSI for Jazz in Europe. In Japanese market, Jazz gets the 110 HP 1.5 as the standard engine.
I suspect, when Jazz is redesigned (next year), it will also be sent stateside and perhaps with an engine that is due to replace the 1.5, or even the same engine.
But, my curiosity is whether Honda decides to offer a Jazz hybrid here, as a mileage leader to replace Insight.
Slotted below the Honda Civic (which will go upmarket when the next-generation Civic is unveiled in the late summer of 2005), the second-generation Fit will be slightly larger than the current car (to better accommodate American-sized passengers and to accommodate standard side-curtain airbags), will be available in the US market in both four-door sedan and five-door hatchback editions, and for the US market will be powered by a new, 1.5-liter i-VTEC I-4 with direct fuel injection (think K20B engine technology but using newer L-series engine block) rated at 115-120 bhp that offers excellent fuel economy and full CARB Partial-Zero Emissions Vehicle (PZEV) emissions compliance. The transmission choices for the new Honda Fit will offer both six-speed manual and either CVT with seven-ratio mode or the new Antonov 6-7 speed automatic transmission (I believe that Honda has licensed the Antonov automatic transmission design).
OK, so tell me again: once the Fit (they chose the wrong name, IMO) is available in the U.S., WHY WOULD ANYONE BUY A CIVIC?????
The marketing problem I think Honda faces here is that the Civic has always been perceived as an economy car. Moving it upscale will put it close to or over $20k in full trim (it's almost $19k now). That's getting out of economy-car territory, to the point where it will overlap with Accord pricing (and lots of other cars). The new Civic will have to be one great car to pull that off, IMO. When one can get a car with the attributes of the Fit for much less money, I for one would go that route instead of the Civic, and I expect many other buyers to do so also.
Jazz/Fit is based off Honda’s global economy platform, designed to support cheaper, entry level sub-compact vehicles. It is designed along the lines most economy European hatchbacks are, with cost and space saver chassis layout (Macpherson struts front, and torsion beam axle rear suspension). This is like going back to the basics of the old CRX (no wonder the rumors of CRX’s return are re-surfacing).
Civic is based off a superior and larger platform, and it left the entry level badge a while ago, with the departure of the economical Civic CX and DX hatchbacks. That’s the area Jazz is supposed to address. And since Jazz is based off the relatively inexpensive platform, it can offer more features for the $$$.
Civic isn’t going to stay put in power department either. I suspect that Honda will continue to deliver 19-20:1 weight to power ratio in mainstream models, regardless of it being Jazz, Civic or Accord. So, Jazz will likely have 110-115 HP, Civic may have 130-140 HP, while Accord continues to have 160 HP at its disposal. But, there may be an overlap somewhere, with Jazz intruding into Civic territory, and Civic doing the same into Accord territory. This isn’t a unique situation.
As long as people buying Jazz or Civic, and Civic over Accord, I’m sure Honda would be alright, than to see them leave for another brand for lack of choices. And as I have mentioned earlier, Jazz presence is unlikely to bump Civic up in price. However, additional features like standard curtain airbags might add to the MSRP of the Civic. With Jazz, sitting down for economy minded buyers, Honda can still move Civic from $13K to $14K with little to no impact, and in all likelihood, gain from it. At the top end, Civic could go on to $22K with hybrid option.
If Accord can range from $17K to $30K, why couldn’t Civic do the same in $14K-$22K price range?
Civic has sold well even at a price premium because it has had no Honda competition in the U.S. Once another quality Honda small car becomes available, and the Civic goes "upmarket", it will be interesting to see how Civic fares. I think the Civic will need to become much faster, a little bigger, and higher content (e.g. bring back the double wishbones) to compete as an upmarket model against the likes of the Mazda3s and all-new Golf/Jetta.
Honda’s global economy platform has semi-independent rear suspension (similar to that in Corolla and Prius) and I expect it to stay as is for good reasons. It is compact, cheap and can offer good handling capability. OTOH, a double wishbone rear suspension offered in global compact platform (like it is in Civic) is more expensive and takes more space, not advisable in small cars. And I expect Civic to continue using it, at least as long as it shares the platform with cars like RSX.
In the front, I don’t expect Civic to go back to double wishbones, after all, how many automakers are offering that set up in mid size cars today, much less compact cars (where space and cost has less tolerance).
As for power, Honda is likely to stay competitive not beat everybody, especially in this class. There may be top end models that offer similar or more power than most of the competition, however.
As for Civic competition, it has always existed, albeit in different forms. In fact, Civic gained popularity in the mid-90s when there was more competition, and as gas prices continue to dwindle one way or the other, a perception of car like Civic is going to help regardless. There is usually a direct relationship between Civic sales and gas prices, both seem to go up at the same time. Image is still a very critical part of the marketing process.
As for moving upmarket, Civic needs updates. The interior has changed little since the 1996 model launch, the engine is virtually the same (additional 68 cc displacement, that’s it). Over this period, Honda has focused more on its light truck lineup, and since that process is all set, I expect the attention to move back to the cars, starting with Civic.
I don’t see a reason why Honda wouldn’t give the Civic upgrades along the same lines they have been doing with Accord. Mainstream trims with reasonable power, features and good fuel economy, and upper trims to compete at a different level. And that, by itself is all the “upscale” treatment that the Civic is going to get.
Cars like Mazda3 and Jetta have a limited appeal. If Honda had to sell only 80K units of Civics per year, I bet it would be looking at Civic from a completely different angle.
Well, that won't be enough for me to get me to fork over the extra few thousand dollars for a Civic vs. a Fit. Or, for that matter, a Civic competitor like the Mazda3s, which offers class-leading power, class-leading handling, class-leading styling (IMO), class-leading features, and good fuel economy to boot. With a high-quality, low-priced small Honda like the Fit coming here, and with better competition every day (a new Elantra and Sentra, and the Cobalt will probably all be out before the next-gen Civic arrives), the Civic is going to need to improve by large leaps to keep its sales at current levels.
Wonder why Mazda3 and Jetta have a limited appeal? Because they are very good, relatively high-priced small cars in a sea of very good, low-priced small cars. If people are going to spend over $18k on a car, why not get an Accord or Camry or Altima or Sonata or Malibu or other mid-sized car instead? Once Civic edges into that price territory, perhaps we will see Civic have limited appeal also? Maybe they will be looking at it from a completely different angle!
I think when the Fit arrives it will appeal to a slightly different demographic, and it shouldn't affect sales either of the Civic coupes, or even sedans, as many people still prefer cars with normal trunks. If anything the Fit might attract new customers who weren't even looking at Civics before because of the versatility. We'll just have to see.
And the only reason the current Civic Si (SiR in Canada) is not as big of a seller as the normal Civics is the higher price, and no automatic (because of course it's marketed as an enthusiast car).
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
I agree the Fit won't affect sales of Civic coupes (the tC might, when it arrives in volume). If the Civic coupe increases in price any more, however, it will start running into competition with Honda's own RSX. But a post earlier stated the Fit would be available as a 4-door sedan, so I am wondering how that would affect Civic sedan sales.
Fit/Jazz would allow Honda to compete in a different class, a place where Civic once did (not does).
As for tC, after the initial frenzy, I doubt it will continue to be a major player against Civic coupe, especially if gas prices stay where they are. I question Toyota's decision to put 2.4-liter I-4 in the tC if they were to appeal to a younger buyer (Civic Coupe buyer is among the youngest in the new market). At $2/gallon, 23-24 mpg city mileage doesn't sound very appealing when compared to a car that can get 30-32 mpg. That has been a long term strength of Civic, and I see it continue with the next generation while the competition tries to carve its own niche.
As for the tC, since it offers considerably more power, performance, and luxury than the current Civic coupe, for less money, I don't see the "frenzy" abating anytime soon. Those people who want maximum fuel economy will buy a Fit/Jazz; those who want performance can buy a tC or, if the next Civic offers more power, a Civic coupe.
And that is exactly where 200 HP Civic comes into play. It isn’t going to be a mainstream model to carry the sales. It will simply satisfy who need more than a regular Civic offers, while most buyers will expect Civic to deliver its promises, durability, high resale and high fuel economy with decent performance. These were the primary reasons my wife wanted a Civic, and in over four years of ownership, the car hasn’t disappointed us.
I simply don’t see why Honda would move Civic upmarket. It will add to the cost. Simply messing up the balance can hurt one of the best sellers. Civic needs evolutionary changes, especially cosmetic (on the inside which has remained virtually unchanged since MY1996 launch), and a small bump in engine displacement, hence power, but without affecting fuel economy.
It seems to be a big focus for the automakers. Earlier, you conjectured that Honda would add power to both the next-gen Fit and Civic. Toyota bumped up the power on the latest Corolla. Nissan added high-powered versions of the Sentra. Chevy boosted power in the Cavalier and Sunfire and will have a high-powered version of the Cobalt. Saturn added power when it came out with the ION and now has a high-powered version of it. Ford boosted standard power on the Focus. Mazda boosted power when the Mazda3 replaced the Protege. Kia boosted horsepower on its new Spectra. Hyundai's next-gen Elantra will use a new engine with more horsepower. And so on.
The reason Honda would move Civic upmarket (e.g. equipping it with a higher powered standard engine and a 200+ hp option) is to better differentiate it from the Fit and to better compete with small cars like the Mazda3. Automakers like Mazda have figured out how to add power without affecting fuel economy or price. Honda will need to do the same. With the Fit coming, they can afford to add power to the Civic since the Fit will be the fuel economy champ of the Honda lineup (for regular ICE cars anyway).
The easier way out is to offer something the established competition doesn’t. But, does that appeal to the market as much? That remains debatable. Horsepower is the last thing Honda has to worry about. The company is more than capable of delivering obscene amount of horses in any car, but sometimes marketing needs outweigh the need to advertise.
In case of Civic, Honda doesn’t need to go back to the drawing boards to challenge a winning formula. I doubt Honda would pursue HP game if it can’t continue the bottom-line that defines the Civic and its appeal.
Civics has always had competition with more power. But the cars that people seem to remember more fondly are those little hatchbacks with just 60-70 HP that delivered 40-50 mpg.
Bringing in Fit/Jazz should result in a new fuel economy champ, but that doesn’t mean Honda needs to forget about Civic. The company certainly didn’t forget about the same in Accord, anyway. Perhaps Civic HX will become redundant, and give way to even more economical Jazz/Fit lineup.
This will be like going back to the days when Civic offered a combination of high fuel economy HB/coupe/sedans.