What's the best vehicle for my needs?

stovebolter

I'm not sure that 'low depreciation' is what you want to look for in a used car - depreciation works against the seller, and in favor of the buyer. After the first few years, most of the depreciation has already been taken out of the car.

That said, a few cars that you might want to consider include the already-mentioned Toyota Camry, the Toyota Avalon, and the Nissan Altima. The Altima of those years feels a little cheaper than the others, in my opinion, but the V6 has the same powertrain as the Maxima. The Avalon is probably the most comfort-oriented in that group (and most likely to make the neighbors think you spend most of your time at the bingo parlor, if you know what I mean...).

I would personally also look at some of the domestic brands - they really aren't as bad as many people perceive them to be. Because of this, they are often available fairly cheap (due to the large initial depreciation), but obviously if this doesn't appeal to you there's no sense in taking time to list them.

brian60

Thanks for your input, everyone.

plekto,

There is some appeal in getting a low-mileage recent vintage American vehicle over a higher-mileage much older Japanese vehicle, but there are two things working against this in my particular situation. First, I already relationships with three very good indy mechanics servicing Japanese brands (Nissan/Infiniti, Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura, Mazda) and second and more importantly, nobody in my area drives American cars so the used market market is very shallow for them. Also, why do the LaCrosse's that Buick sends to China look so much better than the ones they sell here?

stovebolter,

I specified "low depreciation" because I would anticipate trading in this particular vehicle in a few years to buy my wife a new car, and at this end of the market, the Toyotas and the Hondas only seem to depreciate about a grand a year, so it's a minimal outlay for me over the course of ownership. I know that the Avalon is a hidden bargain, but I just don't see myself driving one (whereas I see the Ford Crown Vic/Lincoln Towncar as a kinda cool retirement-set vehicle). I know that the domestics have improved in recent years (and interestingly, a lot of the Japanese brands have fallen in quality during the same timeframe), but I admittedly have my biases after experiencing domestic products from the 70s and 80s growing up and having worked in the industry briefly in the late 90s. Even so, I was pretty impressed by a taxi ride in the current model Chevy Malibu (which is out of my price range) and with my Opel/Saturn Astra rental in Germany.

plekto

The LaCrosse that they send to China is actually a re-badged Lucerne as near as I can tell. There's a whole story there behind the the image of Buick in China, btw. Pretty interesting stuff.

A shallow used market is perfect. You need to think of this as the opposite of what NEW car do I want. Instead you want to think "what car is made well but holds its value the worst and is likely driven by some elderly person who passed away so it has low miles?"

That's just not an import. If you want better handling and a sportier car with the same quality, you can also look at the Pontiac Grand Prix. These go for as little as $10K for a two year old model. Sure, the GM 3.8 is an old engine, but old engines equal less to fix and no recalls or gremlins. And the replacement cost of a transmission repair in a recent vintage Camry is... $3500+. That 4 speed in the GM is $1200 all over town, since it's an over 20 year old design.

GM builds great cars mechanically. As good as Toyota makes. Just their marketing and management skills are horrid. Bottom of the barrel. Their exterior styling is also nothing special, either, though it's not nearly as awful as Chrysler or Nissan's ick from around 2000. But a perfect combination for a used choice.

Note - you can get a first generation Cadillac CTS for not a lot more - closer to $15K. Everyone says it's bland inside and so on, but compared to an Accord or a Chevrolet or similar, it's quite nice. It failed as a luxury sport sedan, new, but *used*, compared to a even a new Civic, it's a big step up.

The Towncar/Grand Marquis also made that list. It gets terrible MPG, but it's dirt cheap to run and overbuilt. You can find these that are one of the 15% that are not sold to fleets(crucial part here) that still suffer depreciation like the fleet models, or close to it. Cruises down Midwestern highways and the like like nothing else. You press the gas and the scenery moves faster. Hardly can tell the engine's running at highway speeds.

Another choice is very specific:
An Early 2000s Mercedes C class. No navigation, no sunroof, no fancy electrical or add-on options to break. The 230K model with the smaller engine and a manual transmission.

Mercedes still builds some of the best engines on the planet. But they, like VW, suffer from poor electrical quality.(same suppliers for switches and so on) The base model can be had with manual windows, no sunroof, and so on. Less electrical is the key(same with VWs btw) With a manual transmission, it's really hard to break. This exact model is popular in Europe for that reason. The 1.8L Supercharged engine gets roughly 35mpg highway as well and still cranks out 190HP or so. Most are the little 2 door coupe, but they also made it as an option in a sedan. Because it's the baby Benz(tm), it has very poor resale value and is quite reasonably priced.(most people see it as not a REAL Mercedes, so it suffers some).

Also, there's any car that you can get with a TDI engine in it that's not VW.

slegacy93

Have you considered the Mazda6 or Subaru Legacy? I think the Mazdas take a big depreciation hit up front, but then plateau as most vehicles do.

I would also suggest doing a simple KBB comparison with some what-ifs, such as the KBB value of the vehicle now with the current mileage, then the KBB value of the vehicle with the mileage you expect it to have when you trade it in. That should give you a decent idea if the car has already taken its hit or if it will continue to rapidly decrease in value when you're driving it.

dtownfb

That's just not an import. If you want better handling and a sportier car with the same quality, you can also look at the Pontiac Grand Prix. These go for as little as $10K for a two year old model. Sure, the GM 3.8 is an old engine, but old engines equal less to fix and no recalls or gremlins. And the replacement cost of a transmission repair in a recent vintage Camry is... $3500+. That 4 speed in the GM is $1200 all over town, since it's an over 20 year old design.


How can you recommend the Grand Prix! The interior layout and design would have been considered bad for a 90's car. Got stuck with one recently as a rental. God awful. :sick:

Not sure about that cost to replace the tranny either. I've been reading (through the forums) $2500-$3000.

plekto

I don't know about you, but the Grand Prix isn't an awful car. Remember, the original poster was thinking about a 2000 or so Altima. That's so plain it might as well be some shack in Siberia. And the last one I sat in was plain, but it's not going to be a BMW at this sort of price range. Don't expect the world for $10K used. I really liked the shifter though - a simple 1-2-3-4 in a straight line between the seats. Makes for idiot-proof power shifting. And in 2007 the radios started (finally!) being able to play MP3 CDs.

As for the transmission, a 4 speed GM automatic is cheap to fix. I can find a dozen places here in Los Angeles that will rebuild it for under $1500. They don't replace - they rebuild them since they are such basic and well understood(and plentiful) design.

If it's just the torque converter that died(about 90% likely), it's labor to yank it and $300 or so for the part, tops.

stovebolter

Actually, I think I was the only one that mentioned the Altima. The original poster mentioned the Maxima and Accord, both of which are a step up from the Altima (in my opinion, at least). Also, I should add that I was thinking of the 2002+ Altima, as a newer Altima would fall in the same price range as an older Maxima or Accord.

I have to agree that the Grand Prix isn't an awful car. I had a 2006 (base model, only a few options). While I only had it about 2.5 years / 65,000 miles, the engine/transmission never had a hiccup - with the exception of one annoyance - it had a cold start piston slap. Apparently not a problem, but it sure sounded bad until the engine warmed up. The only problem I did have with the car was that the 'Driver Information Center' (odometer, trip computer, etc.) was faulty on delivery of the car and had to be replaced right off the bat. Otherwise, there wasn't much in terms of quality/reliability that I could complain about.

My biggest problem with the 04+ Grand Prix is the roof slope in the rear of the cabin. It cuts out a lot of head room and makes entry/exit a lot more awkward, particularly if you're putting a kid in a car seat.

I didn't consider it to be a sporty car in any way other than appearance. Good power from the 3.8, but the steering is over-boosted and handling felt front-heavy and soft. Better than a Camry, worse than an Accord.

dtownfb

Our taste differ because I thought the interior layout was awful. The dashboard tilted toward the drive, big ugly buttons...yuck. But that is why we have so many cars available since we all have differing tastes.

My last two used cars i purchsed were $3300 and $5000 (current vehicle), both GM products. I'm familar with the 4 speed tranny and again, the cost I have been reading are in the $2500 range for a rebuilt 4 speed. Hopefully i never have to find out.

I think the OP basically has the cars that fit his requirement.

thegraduate

Obviously, functional doesn't always mean handsomely styled, and vice versa.
Other than the awkward looking Driver Information Center, it's actually a pretty fucntional design, in the Grand Prix. Climate controls are simple to decipher, and while the stereo could be higher in the dash, it is pretty easy to use (having just ridden with a friend who has a Grand Prix GT, I saw for myself).

To be honest, I didn't like the Grand Prix at all (feels tiny inside, with poor headrest design), but it really wasn't a product of interior functionality, but rather the car as a whole.

plekto

I mentioned it in case the original poster wanted something that was more modern than the LaCrosse. The reason I like it is the shifter. When I drove it, I shifted purely in a manual manner like I used to do with my Volvo years ago.

But the LaCrosse is a better version of the same car in most every other way.

pasuk

I am in the market for an SUV that is AWD/4WD and has a third row seat (must fold flat). Crunch time and need to make a purchase very soon.
Have considered the following vehicles lately...
'08 Highlander
'09 Plot
have not drive the Acadia and Envoy, but plan to ASAP (am I nuts for considering GMC given the recent news??)Looking to keep the price around $28-$32

Suggestions?

sebring95

Well you didn't really say why you NEED an SUV so it's hard to say for sure which is actually better for you. I'm guessing you need some people plus cargo space since you want fold-flat seats. The Highlander is a very nice vehicle in most all regards, but the downside is space behind the 3rd row is pretty lousy if you need to haul people and stuff. I just didn't find the Pilot all that appealing in terms of interior design, materials, and subjectively....it's butt ugly all around, particularly inside.

We have an '05 Odyssey and perhaps are spoiled by the gobs of space and passenger room. But we also have just gotten by with snow tires on FWD and with our rural locaction an AWD with snow tires would perform even better for us. So we did some shopping this year and drove the Highlander, MDX, Sienna awd, RX350, and Enclave. We decided on the Enclave and then decided to no buy anything because we really don't want to come off the cash. But in terms of best overall package, the Buick won hands down. It's bigger than the others, but that's a plus in my book. As close to the space and comfort of a minivan as you can get. The Sienna really wasn't bad and that would be our second choice, but we really liked the Enclave. Of course some of the draw was the features and at your price point it doesn't sound like that's a major issue. So honestly, I'd say an AWD Sienna would be the far better pick. Unless of course towing is one of your needs. FWIW, our Odyssey gets around just as well with snow tires as our SUV's have when they just had regular all-season tires. So if you don't have any extreme needs for snow like we do and don't plan to put snow-tires on the SUV, you might consider other fwd choices and just put snow tires on it. You would have a lot more choices at that price point.

I'm not really worried about the GM situation....I just can't fathom they're going away. Maybe GMC/Buick/Pontiac....I dunno. But there is the Chevy Traverse if you were that worried. I don't see them cutting warranty if a bankruptcy was declared because it would kill their business.

pasuk

Thanks for your comments.
Some add'l info. I do need AWD/4WD as I live in the mountians of Western PA and need the reliability of getting around when the weather is downright terrible. I do also need the ability to tow.

qbrozen

I also suggest checking out the Mazda CX9 and Subaru Tribeca.

I would also throw a used Volvo XC90 in there. We compared an '05 XC90 to a new '08 Pilot and it was simply no contest for us. Much more vehicle for much less money. We our loving our volvo.

jsstull3

I currently own a 2006 Acura TSX w/ Tech package. I "like" this car but do not "love" this car. I'm looking for ideas on new sedans / coupe vehicles around 30K (not above if possible). I am probably going to buy sometime in 2009 when I get home from my deployment. My dream car is a 3 Series but I doubt they will ever hit the 30K range....

Thanks in advance,
Shawn

sebring95

Why not a BMW certified 3-series. Can get closer to $20k and warranty is pretty good.

qbrozen

Base model 128i?

More info would help. Does it need to be a luxo car? Do you require FWD? Would you consider RWD? Would you consider AWD? Any options you can't live without?

I mean, you've stated sedans/coupes around $30k. There are a plethora of options unless you narrow it down with your requirements.

I extrapolated from your post that you want intro-luxo and probably not FWD, hence my suggestion. But I'm assuming things.

jsstull3

Good point. I would prefer a luxury brand if possible or probable. My wife has a new RDX and I'm pretty much in love with the turbo which the TSX is lagging. I'm thinking about numerous options including the 1 Series, used 3, Maxima, A 4, Passat, G35, etc.... I'm in Ohio so FWD or AWD is probably smart due to the fact it can snow about 4 months out of the year.

I'm guessing I'm probably going to get depressed when I go to the dealership and tell them what I have to spend. Oh well, what can I do?

sebring95

You can get into a certified 330xi awd for $30,000. I was shopping them awhile back and it's hard to beat that in my book. 6yr/100k miles warranty is better than a new one. Drive the 330 and see if that engine isn't far more appearling than a small 4cyl with a turbo....no comparison in my book but I guess it depends on your driving style. I enjoy effortless power without drama :P

dtownfb

I'm not really worried about the GM situation....I just can't fathom they're going away. Maybe GMC/Buick/Pontiac....I dunno. But there is the Chevy Traverse if you were that worried. I don't see them cutting warranty if a bankruptcy was declared because it would kill their business.

I wouldn't let the current crisis stop you from buying a GM product. GM, in one form or another, will be around. The only negative regarding the Enclave is real world gas mileage. Every magazine I have read has complained that the 24 mpg highway is optimistic and have been reporting combined driving mpg in the low teens. So the weight of the vehicle is really hurting gas mileage. Not so much an issue with $1.50 gas but I doubt this will last past memorial Day. Remember $4.00 gas is one international crisis away.....

I would definitely test drive the Enclave/Traverse and add the mazda CX9 to your list as well. You should be able to get a nice deal the closer you buy to the end of the year.

sebring95

One of the reasons we delayed the Enclave purchase was they just aren't dealing on them. They must be selling well...I think the rebate was only $750? A little better on the '08's if there are any left, but we were wanting the '09 for the more power and cooled seats. We'll revisit sometime next year.

I'm not too worried about being disappointed about the gas mileage. Our Ody was rated for 17/28 and I actually fell for that. It does about 24mpg on long highway only trips and averages 18. First vehicle I've owned that didn't beat the highway EPA estimates, but basically the VCM system manipulated the EPA test back in '05. If they made an AWD Odyssey I'd be very happy.

dtownfb

I think you made the right decision in waiting on the Enclave. With the current economic conditions, everyone should pause before pulling the trigger on buying a new car.

My Quest minivan is the same as your Odyssey. It gets 24-25 on the highway but only 14 around town which is most of my wife's driving.

qbrozen

Well, for what its worth, when it came down to a new 1-series, used 3-series, or used G, I went with the G.

Finally set my sites on a G35X with ~30k miles. Got it for WAY less than your target price, which was one of the big factors I picked it. I liked the 330 slightly more, but not enough to justify the extra $$. I'm very happy with my choice ... however, keep in mind that it gets poor mileage. I average 20-21 mpg. And, to your point, I find the power very impressive.

From your list, I would avoid the A4 and Passat due to reliability issues. And, personally, I'm not interest in FWD, so that nixes the Maxima.

Lemme throw another one at you, though. Check out a CPO '06+ Volvo S60R. If you think your wife's turbo is impressive, you will be absolutely blown away by the Volvo. Toss in the electronically selectable suspension settings and it makes for an amazing car to drive. This was my first choice when shopping, but again, I went with the G for money reasons.

kyfdx

If you don't need every option, you could probably get a new '08 G35 for $30K... though probably not with AWD for that price..

jchan2

I would definitely consider an Infiniti G35 (or G37, although an outgoing 2008 G35 will be much cheaper, but with lower gas mileage)

jsstull3

Hey everyone. Thanks for all the different car ideas. I will definitely test drive many vehicles before making my selection. With the way the market is right now hopefully someone is dealing! I haven't really looked at different financing options yet but I know BMW has 0.9% for 60 months going on right now. Does anyone else have something similar to this? It's hard to beat that interest rate and the no maintence cost for 50K!

joshuag

A few you could look at would be the Chrysler Aspen, Dodge Durango, I am sure you could get a killer deal on one of those. The GMC Yukon in my town are being listed for about 28k. You could also look at the new Kia Borrego. Google one of those. They are very nice for the money and I know you can get 4 wheel drive.

plekto

Remember - AWD and other part-time systems are rubbish and actually nearly useless for anything other than gravel roads and getting started in light snow.

They transfer power too slowly to actually make a difference, take up to 1-2 seconds to actually figure out what to do when trying to get up a hill or over something, and often just completely crap out and do NOTHING at all in situations where you'd figure at least the main drive wheels would still be turning.

You need 4x4 if you live in an area with bad winter conditions. Not some overblown slightly raised 7 passenger minivan that's trying to look like a real SUV.

Note - the Subarus do have actual 4x4 on them as does the Jeep Patriot and Toyota Rav-4 since the latter two have a manual 4x4 lock/override switch that forces it to stay in 4x4 mode. Most everything else is a massive failure. Just look on YouTube for examples and gape at the simple tests that the AWD systems all fail at.(note - the Rav-4 and the Patriot also completely fail at these tests unless you manually lock the transfer case into 4x4 mode, THEN they work fine)

Or just get a real 4x4 like a Suburban or 4Runner. These really DO get you through the really ugly stuff as they are supposed to.

jchan2

I know Infiniti is running 0.0% APR on all outgoing 2008 models (for 36 months) to clean them out, or there's manufacturer-dealer cash if you plan on paying cash; you can get a lower net price.

There's also a special lease deal at $349/mo. for 39 months on 2008 G35s... So if you're into leasing, there's a deal on that.

On another note, I would also consider a Volkswagen CC; it won't have the premium cachet, but it might provide the driving experience you're looking for.

plekto

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooQRxlChvMw
Typical AWD systems

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7dVFY5CxT0&feature=related
More stuff. Yes, it's hideously Subaru Biased.

http://www.expeditionswest.com/equipment/reviews/patriot/index.htm
Jeep's system works, too because of the locking diff mode, which overrides the computers and transfer systems. This is slightly similar to 4x4 (not to be confused with full time AWD or "full time 4WD") In my 4Runner, There is a 4WD high and 4WD low and a warning sticker saying to only use 4WD when you're not on pavement. But work it does, and exceedingly well I must say.

Without locking diffs and transfer cases, or something similar, most of the fancy systems are a joke in real off-road environments or snow or even mud.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2SJe9eDS4s&NR=1
Actual 4x4. It's a normal 4Runner.(only ~140HP!). Night and day difference here. If you are worried about bad weather and winter roads, there's really no substitute for true 4X4. It's also not lifted and has IFS. Pretty much stock other than a locking rear diff being added. It struggles but gets up the hill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Xo8WeWzZD8&feature=related
4X4 vs SUV yuppie toy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NI4HiiSL5aE
Got Snow? Heh.

TWoP_Fan

What I need: A small to midsize SUV. Must have AC, 4wd, be under 25,000. Must have good safety and a good size backseat, as I have a kid in a carseat. Looking to buy used. (Right now I have a '98 Mercury Tracer. Awesome car, no problems.) NO AWD, unless you can explain to my husband why it's better than 4wd.

I am interested in:

A) the Kia Sorento. My parents have one and they haven't had any major problems with it and it is affordable with good safety. I like being able to put the car in 4wd manually.

Kia Sportage. Same deal as above, but a little smaller and I like the ride a little better. How ever, it doesn't compare as well safety-wise to the Sorento.

C) I like the CR-V, but you can't turn on the 4wd manually. And it's more expensive.

D) Ford Escape. SO pretty! SO shiny! However, we had a friend slide on ice in hers and it totaled the car because the sensor didn't catch the slide and she went off the road into a tree. It's not very icy here, but it clearly does happen. (I know that's not very technical, but I'm new to the car thing and I'm learning so I can make an informed choice.)

Suggestions and comments, please!

stovebolter

Regarding AWD vs. 4wd: A lot of the newer AWD SUVs have the option of manually engaging AWD at lower speeds via a push button. This means that if you're at a stop and need traction, you don't have to start spinning the front wheels before the rear wheels will engage. I know the Hyundai Santa Fe and Tucson, Mitsubishi Outlander, and Toyota RAV4 all have this feature, and it wouldn't surprise me to see other popular models with it as well.

My wife has an '07 Santa Fe, and we do see a fair amount of snow and ice. We've never had a problem with traction (even with the stock all-season tires), and even in the worst cases we've only needed to push the button to get going. I wouldn't get such a vehicle for any kind of serious off-roading, but the Santa Fe does fine on dirt roads.

It might be worth considering the AWD vehicles with this feature, provided you don't need low-range 4wd.

plekto

The problem is that it's all computerized gimmickry and crap to break. You need a real 4x4 mode just in case you actually do need all four wheels spinning at the same time.(this transfer method from 2wd front to 2wd rear is rubbish).

The RAV4 does have a 4wd lock mode as does the Jeep Patriot. These systems are much simpler and less likely to break. They also give power to all of the wheels at the same time, so when you really need it, there's nothing trying to get in the way. The 4 door Wrangler that recently came out is, of course, the real deal. It's pretty nice inside and it can be had for about $25K.

Of course, the real solutions are things like a 2-3 year old 4Runner(though, new they are about $28-29K...) or a 2-3 year old similar 4x4 SUV. The type that you push a 4x4 button on the dash and you hear the front hubs auto-lock. Most makers have one vehicle like this at least. Nissan, Toyota, and even GM and Ford. Yes, you might have to get used at $25K, but the alternatives in that range pretty much are the RAV4, Patriot, and the Toyota FJ, which are all kind of mediocre choices.

Oh - one more choice. You could always just get a truck. Most trucks have 4x4 as an option, and if you get one with an extended cab, you can fit 4-5 people in comfort. Some, like the Dodge trucks, are being sold at insane discounts now. MG and Ford have discounts that are equally insane. Then there's always the Toyota and Nissan trucks.

Nissan Frontier Crew Cab(short bed) with 4WD and automatic and a tow hitch - $27K MSRP
$1500 cash back on 2009 models and $2500 or 1.9% on 2008 models.
Cars Direct price, delivered - $23,863

The Manual version - yes - 4WD and manual! is $22,880. Either option will leave you with room for a matching shell and carpeted bed liner to match. IME, Unless you absolutely NEED that 3rd row, there's no difference between this and a larger SUV, except for looks.

Or get the XTerra. $22,625 at Cars Direct for the base 4x4 model. I don't think it gets cheaper than this. $25,782 for the off-road trim(recommended for bad weather)

sebring95

D) Ford Escape. SO pretty! SO shiny! However, we had a friend slide on ice in hers and it totaled the car because the sensor didn't catch the slide and she went off the road into a tree. It's not very icy here, but it clearly does happen. (I know that's not very technical, but I'm new to the car thing and I'm learning so I can make an informed choice.)


Ok, first of all your friend screwed up, not some "sensor". The sensors are there to help correct screw ups. Sometimes they can help, sometimes they can't. Depends on how bad you screwed up.

I don't really like anything on your list, but the Sorento would probably be the winner if I had to choose. How about the Subaru? It's going to handle, drive, and ride better than any of those and yes it's AWD system is better than most 4x4 systems, nevermind it easily trumps ALL the picks above.

sebring95

You need a real 4x4 mode just in case you actually do need all four wheels spinning at the same time.(this transfer method from 2wd front to 2wd rear is rubbish).


Care to list which 4x4 vehicles will spin all 4 wheels at the same time? Me thinks I can do it counting on one hand.....but curious what your take is.

stovebolter

I'm not too familiar with the Patriot, but the RAV4's '4wd lock' is a similar system to what you may find in a Santa Fe or Outlander - it has an electronically controlled clutch that, under normal operation, engages when slippage is detected at the front wheels. Using the '4wd lock' on any of these vehicles will cause the computer to engage the clutch to power the rear wheels (up to a certain speed, usually about 25 mph). They do not switch from 2wd front to 2wd rear, they go from (open differential) fwd to (open differential) awd.

They are all primarily fwd vehicles, not true 4x4s. For most people, they are fine for virtually all normal driving conditions - paved/unpaved roads, snow/ice/rain/mud (not serious mudding, mind you). If a real 4x4 is needed, then yes, something like a used 4Runner (et al.) is a better option.

plekto

True. But that manual lockup mode is a godsend. Because when it's not just a little mud or snow on the road, but a whole lot of it, you need it giving power to the front and rear all of the time.

And 25mph in really really bad weather, but it works, is a huge advantage. Subaru of course does this all of the time, which is nice. But most people don't go 50mph on ice and snow.(or shouldn't)

But yes, none are a replacement for a real 4x4. And, as for the previous post, almost all larger 4X4s actually do give power to all of the wheels all of the time. You can see this usually listed as "part time 4WD" in the description, since you will destroy the transfer case running it on pavement for any length of time. But once engaged, it's the real deal. Doubly so if the system has locking diffs. Then you really only need one wheel to get grip to move.

XTerra, Suburban, 4Runner, Durango, Explorer, almost *every* RWD 4X4 truck, and of course the big boats like a Land Cruiser, Expedition, Range Rover, Wrangler Unlimited, and so on.

It's not going to try to be there to save you at 60mph in the rain. It's purely there for when you're stuck and in really bad need of traction. If you want a SUV with AWD for only the rain, Audi and Subaru are the only ones that do full-time AWD properly.

Edit:
Yes, Porsche(also Audi, technically), Mercedes, and BMW also have similar full time systems that work. But you *did* say 25-30k...

sebring95

Unless the system has locking differentials (front and rear), you're not driving all four wheels at any time. Almost all "part-time 4x4" system have open differentials in the front. So assuming it has a rear-locking differential, the best case scenario (a low-traction situation) you'll be getting traction/power to three wheels. Landcruiser, Range Rover, Wrangler are the mainstream vehicles that have options for a fully locking front differential and they have to be manually engaged. These are amoung the few vehicles that could drive all four wheels at the same time.

Most of the trucks on the road, and particularly the SUV's with part-time systems have open-differentials on both axles. Like the Jeep Liberty base command-trac. So you're really only driving TWO wheels at the same time. And the open diff will typically favor the wheels with the least amount of traction. So really, the electroncic systems could be better for the average driver.

plekto

Yes, I know. I don't consider those systems to really be the real deal, either. 4WD in my mind is all four wheels getting power at once. Thankfully a few SUVs and most of the trucks have it available. A 4Runner, though, does have a button and you can hear the hubs lock and the transfer case engage. My friend's ~2002 4Runner out-did his Wrangler off-road and so he sold the Wrangler. It's actually a proper off-road SUV like they used to make. But a 4Runner might be a bit out of the budget that the OP wanted.

Actually *my* 4Runner is a bit older and has a manual transmission and actual gear levers to engage everything. IIRC, you can get a Patriot with 4x4 and manual transmission. No low range, though, but no gimmicks, either - really does go off-road if you want. The XTerra also can be had with a manual setup.

sebring95

I don't know of any truck that has locking front diffs (short of a Unimog). And I've had one of every brand out there, currently a Tundra. In fact, until around 2004 Toyota didn't even offer a limited slip on the Tundra. They did have some locking rear-diffs on their 2wd trucks though. Either way, nearly impossible to dig with 4 wheels on pickups without going aftermarket. Toyota had a pretty good thing with some of the earlier Landcruisers and 4runners. Wife has a GX470 that basically has limited slips on both ends so there's still no locking in and truly digging with all four. Of course that thing comes with glorified car tires anyway, which is what makes most SUV's useless off the dealer lot.

plekto

I give vehicles with limited slip a technical pass They are at least trying and are decent in off-road conditions. Perhaps a more accurate criteria in my book, then, would be that the proper 4x4 has equal power to the front and rear without any computers or other idiocy trying to transfer power back and forth.

And on a lot of vehicles, a locker is possible to add after market if you REALLY need it.(a Wrangler, IIRC, does come with the option from the factory...)

collins3

I am turning in my leased BMW325 CIA with 17,000 miles used on a 3 year lease having paid for 30,000 plus miles. I loved the car but don't want or need to pay as much this time around.
I would like some suggestions on a lease payment for $300 - $400 per month with little or no down payment. I don't care what kind of a car it is so long as it is new - I only use it for back and forth to work and shopping. I like the honda civic and the infinity but don't think they would lease that low.
Any ideas? Thanks
collins3

exb0

Honda offers

2009 Civic Featured Special Lease
$189.00 per month for 36 months. $1,999.00 total due at signing.
Includes down payment with no security deposit. Excludes taxes, titles and fees. For well-qualified buyers.

You can also lease 2008 Infiniti G35 Journey for $349 a mo with $2653 down.

However, IMHO, the most economical way is to buy, don't lease, yourself a Civic LX for about $17K or Accord LX for $19.5, or Hyundai Sonata GLS for $15K and keep it for 10 years.

sebring95

What's the desire for a new car if you only drive 6,000 miles a year? You're basically spending $.65-.85/mile just in rent. That's quite possibly the worst financial model you can build for buying a new car because of the very high depreciation during the first few years. If it's a warranty issue, it would be more cost effective to add a service contract and keep the vehicle longer. You can add a Honda factory 7 year 100k mile bumper-to-bumper warranty for around $1,000. Very little maintenance required on any vehicle these days (if you follow the owners manual schedule, not the dealers). I guess I could understand if you were just into the latest/greatest car, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

kyfdx

You can lease a Subaru Legacy for well under $300/mo., and an Impreza for around $200/mo..

If you like Civics, as noted above, you should easily come in under $300/mo.

stewardrobbins

I'm looking for a used winter awd or 4wd. My criteria are:
cheap - what depreciates a lot?
reasonably reliable - I will get it checked out by a mechanic, of course.
good awd or 4wd system

Any suggestions of makes or models??

Gas mileage is not a factor, though I don't want anything as big as a Suburban or even a Tahoe.. I like Subarus, but they don't seem to depreciate very much.

jchan2

Depending on how old you're willing to go, I think a Subaru is a decent choice; you can pick up one as recent as a 2000 model in the $5K neighborhood, which isn't bad for a winter beater.

I would also consider an Isuzu- since the brand has died, the products it left behind will have depreciated significantly. While the Rodeo and Trooper weren't exactly the greatest of cars, they fit your criteria as a winter beater. Other Isuzu vehicles, such as the Axiom and Amigo (Rodeo Sport, in later years) are also fine choices, although the Rodeo/Trooper will be an easier pair to locate.

Another decent choice would be a Ford Explorer, although it may not be as good of a deal as you expect as the Explorer doesn't depreciate as much as you'd expect from a Ford product.

plekto

Toyota Tacoma 4x4 about 2-5 years old.. Add whatever bits you want. Add a shell, too, if you desire, and the crew cab option as well. The crew cab models are exactly like a modern sedan or SUV inside. Quite nice, actually.

Extremely straightforward and stable in bad weather. High resale value. Nearly impossible to kill reliability. And, it's not insanely huge like a 4Runner or Suburban.

qbrozen

your price and miles expectations would help.

We just picked up a '99 Subaru Legacy L wagon with 95k miles for $4k for my brother. Very clean.

If you are looking to spend more, I've seen Volvo S60 2.5T AWDs for very cheap, relatively speaking.

jnorman76

I am really having a hard time even deciding what cars I should look at, and I need some help from some savvy car shoppers.

I am turning in a '05 Pacifica, which I really liked except for horrible gas mileage and big rear end.

I have a budget of $12,000 for the car itself (plus WI taxes/fees). Here are my requirements: comfortable for my frame (6'2", 350), sedan, automatic trans, not a base model - but no need for premium features (leather, etc.).

Cars I have driven to date include: 2008 Chevy Malibu (too small), 2007 Chevy Impala (was okay, but didn't get me excited), 2008 Ford Taurus (I like, but probably out of price range). I would like to test drive: 2008 Mitsu Galant, 2008 Chrysler Sebring.

Anything else I should consider?