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Peeter
I'm surprised there are so many mid-sized '08s in your pricerange. I would never have guessed.
How about a Grand Marquis? Brand new those can be discounted almost to your price limit, if you go easy on features. although you didn't say what kind of mileage you actually want out of your vehicle. We got 17-18 mpg in our Pacifica, so we were quite happy to now be getting 21 in our XC90.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The Ford 500/Mercury Montego might work for you - it's the basically the same as the new Taurus except with a smaller engine. An '06 Buick Lucerne might also fit you well, or if you want to look older the Park Avenue might work.
You could also consider an older Volvo S80; someone mentioned the S60, which is probably too small for you (the S60 is only slightly larger, if any, than a 3-Series) I think at $12,000 you could get into an '03 or an '04; S80s don't hold their value too well.
What about a 2007 or 2008 Dodge Charger (or its corporate cousin, the Chrysler 300)? It's not terribly expensive, a full-size, they're available EVERYWHERE, and with Chrysler on the ropes, you could probably swing a pretty good deal on a used one. Or, if you want to spend a few grand more, you could get a brand new one, although it'd be a stripper SE model with the underpowered 2.7L engine (I've seen some advertised in the $16,500 range)
Haven't seen a Galant recently enough to judge it, and I'd stay away from the Sebring if at all possible. Just... no.
I am hoping for a little bit of advice regarding which makes and models of vehicles I should be looking at.
I am looking for a fuel efficient, reliable, used small car that I can drive for many many years. Reliability is probably the most important factor to me in this purchase, with fuel efficiency coming second. I do probably 50% of my driving on the highway, and 50% in the city. I do live in the NW and get a bit of nasty weather during the winter so handling and traction are also something I need to consider.
I "need" - something small, fuel efficient and reliable that I can drive for hundreds of thousands of kilometers.
I would really like - cruise control, power windows/locks,
I'm thinking I'd prefer manual transmission due to better fuel efficiency and price (new), but I'm finding with my looking that most used compact/subcompact vehicles are automatics and the ones with manual transmissions do not have lots of extras like cruise control. (I've been looking at newish, low milage subcompacts)
Forgot a vital detail . .. . I'm willing to spend up to $15 000.
I would recommend a set of dedicated snow tires for winter driving regardless of what you buy. They really don't cost much more in the long run and the improvement in traction is drastic. Might save your life.
A lot of new cars get as good or better mpg with the automatic. Whatever you save on the price you may lose that and more when you sell. Manuals are a lot harder to sell in the US.
I always had manuals but bought an auto this time, one reason is the gearing on manuals now seems to be designed for "racing" in most cases. In my car the engine rpm is about 25% higher in the top gear of the manual vs. the automatic. Fifth gear in the automatic was almost equivalent to fourth gear in the manual.
Is your preference new or used? In some models (eg. Civic) I think $15K may mean used, while for some others you may get a new for that price. Honda and Toyota also typically have the problem that you don't save much with a used one...though maybe things are different in the current market.
Ford has been showing improved relibility and may give you more for your money, I think you could easily get a new Focus for $15K. Hyundai is another one that seems to be moving up in the reliability rankings and offers good values plus the long warranty, you might look at a new Elantra.
Nissan Versa S w/ power pack, ABS pack, and cruise = $14,985 msrp ... $13,723 TMV
Scion xD comes standard with all that = $15,320 (both msrp and tmv)
Honda Fit Sport (again, all standard) = $15,940 msrp ... $15,516 TMV
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Good to know that manuals do not resell as well - other than the (what I thought anyway) fuel savings I don't really have an opinion either way on transmission, if it's the right car in every other category I wouldn't care if it's manual or automatic.
I have been looking used - thought I'd get more car for my money.
Is Nissan as reliable as Honda long term?
I've seen quite a few civics that I like however the milage seems high, is there a number to age ratio that I should try to stick under?? or a magic number that should scare me off??
Thanks again.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
You may be able to get a new Elantra for about the price tag you want. They have a 5 yr/60k bumper to bumper warranty and 7 yr/100k mile powertrain.
Buying new, the Elantra would be my first choice. Used, i would go with the Corolla.
well, since the OP wants a stick ....
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Check out the Mazda 3i also. Not as fun to drive as the wifey's S model, but a nice car overall and very reliable with decent mileage. The Kia Spectra was very nice when we test drove it a few weeks ago and also look at the Optima sedan. Many choices out there for $15k and quality is vastly improved in all these makes...they're actually quite good. I consider tier 1 imports as Honda, Nissan, Toyota & Mazda and tier 2 imports as Hyundai, Kia ,Suzuki & Scion.
A vast amount of excellent choices out there and dealers are looking to move some metal. We were the only one's in the store when we test drove and bought both of my girls cars recently. Got under invoice on both with rebates and doc fees being dismissed...they just rearranged the numbers to reflect it. Felt we got two excellent deals.
Good luck shopping!
The Sandman
Scion IS Toyota
When one of my kids was shopping for a cheap car a dealer (when the car he actually came to see was not what it was supposed to be) convinced him to test drive a Toyota Corolla wagon with 325,000 miles on it, plus it was a rusted out heap. The saleman says "its a Toyota, it'll run forever"...to which the approporiate response is "it already has"
I'd second the vote for a brand new Honda Fit- you do get a lot of car for your money, and it's a better handling car, per the reviews, than the Versa or Yaris.
However, all things considered, I would also take a look at the Nissan Versa. It's quite a bit of car for the money...
The Yaris doesn't really move me that much, although the 5-door models do seem somewhat intriguing. Either way, the Scion xD is probably a better buy within the Toyota family.
Stay away from the Chevrolet Aveo. Just.... no. The Cobalt could be ok, but at your price point, you can get a much better car for not much more money.
The Sandman
The Prius appeals to me, but it is out of my price range. Honda Civic is too small. Generally, I'm leaning towards wagons. I have looked pretty carefully at the Toyota Matrix and the Mazda 5, both in 2008s. The 5 wins on safety and overall interior configuration. But, ultimately, the predicted 19 city/25 hwy gas mileage ratings seem pretty pitiful to me. I've skimmed the Mazda 5 forums here on Edmunds and am now more confused than ever. Many claim they're getting 30+ averages, but there's always the odd poster or three who says they're getting even less than 19.
The 2008 Matrix lists fuel economy at 26 city/33 hwy, which pleases me. (I was shooting for something above 25 in town as 80% of my driving is local, rual stuff.) Oddly, the 2009 Matrix lists only 20-21 for city mileage. What the heck?? Is the 09 that different from the 08, or do the 08 Matrix figures lie?
My current car is like comparing apples to kuquats -- a 1988 Volkwagen Westfalia/Vanagon. No real safety features, 17 mgp. But, since I'm moving "up" in the world, I'm struggling to make the best choice here.
Help.
Looks like 17 is the EPA hwy figure for that ancient machine. So I would guess that whatever you buy, you will get ~ the EPA hwy number.
The 2009 Matrix has an optional larger engine, that version has the lower mpg figures.
Not many actual wagons have been sold in recent times. There was a Mazda6 wagon for several model years. But since that comes only with a V6, mpg is not the greatest. There was also a hatchback Mazda6 and that had a 4 cyl version availalble. Passat and Taurus (not sure how long ago they stopped making that) are the only other wagons that come to mind, in terms of a true conventional (mid-size or larger) wagon.
Anyway, I'm not wedded to the traditional wagon concept, just looking for spacious interior without ending up with something huge.
Thanks for the advice on the mileage thing. Let me make sure I understand -- since I'm getting 17mpg in the old car, which is that car's listed hwy mgp, I could expect to get the hwy mpg in any newer car I buy? Wow. Go figure.
With all that city driving though a hybrid wouldn't be bad but I don't think you can get into one with that price point.
Another thought is a Chevy HHR. I had one as a rental awhile back and really like it. Great room, big back seat, more like a mid-size, kind of cool really IMHO. I drove all over vegas for several days plus a trip out into the desert with some high-speed runs and averaged 28mpg. Computer was showing 34mpg out on the highway holding steady at 70mph. It's a little quirky to drive with the flat windshield but driving a Vanagon for 10+ years it sounds like you don't like the mainstream cookie-cutter vehicles anyway :P
That doesn't really work well when comparing apples to kumquats. One reason is because the difference between city and hwy mileage isn't that great on trucks/vans/etc.. For example, my truck is rated 14city/17hwy and I tend to average around 16mpg. A Vanagon is rated 15/17. So they're basically saying it doesn't matter how or where you drive, these things get terrible mpg. On other more aerodynamic vehicles (i.e. not bricks) they can get far better mpg on the highway. I would say someone comparing newer vehicles can easily expect to get a similar % of EPA mileage when going with a similar style vehicle. Around town it's very hard to get extremely good mileage. It basically comes down to how much fuel does the car burn when idling. This is where hybrids and diesels do well because they use far less fuel to begin with. The rest just comes down to engine size....smaller engines burn less fuel when idling.
Haven't yet had either kid actually SIT in the rear seats of the 5, but you make a good point about leg room. Oldest is already 5'6 and likely still growing since she's only 14. We both have the legs of someone much taller. The bucket seats give the appearance of being roomier, but maybe not.
On the "around town" driving, the thing is, where we live it's not like we're doing a ton of idling. We're in a rural area with long runs between towns. I'm back and forth between the town where I live and the town where all the kids' activities take place (about 20 miles r/t) at least 5 days/week. But, it's not like driving in a city where every 100 yds you're at another stop light.
But, generally, I know that in town mileage will be poorer than hwy, and since that comprises the bulk of my driving, I didn't want to "settle" for a car that only lists 20mpg in town. That's what turned me on to the Matrix.
The Sandman
And right in your price range.
Another good choice is a 4 cylinder Altima. Larger and consistently gets 30mpg highway.
'24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
In our minivan, the rear seats seemed to be designed with small ones in mind, not large teenagers. The second row bucket seats were smaller than the ones in front. The third row bench had pretty a low back in addition to a short seat cushion like the 2nd row buckets. The leg room also was not great for adult size people. I've seen this in some SUVs too, in another way...in those sometime the horizontal leg room looks plentiful, but when you sit you find the seat is low and there is not enough room to stretch out your legs so you end up perched with knees up.
I don't know how the rear leg room is but the Focus wagon has a lot of cargo space for it's size.
On the gas mileage, there was a good point made about the very small difference between hwy and city mpg for your vehicle, but sounds like your driving is more like highway than city. Take a look at the test schedules EPA uses, to see if that is so: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml
My own commute is far more similar to their hwy schedule (or a cross between hwy and high speed, which is what I think the highway rating is based on) than the city one and I typically get about that mpg, at least when it is not too cold.
****
14-16K for a used vehicle that has good features and handling? Even the smallest Mercedes gives the basic imports a real thrashing. Now, the Mazda 5 is a nice car, to be honest. But there are tons of alternatives. I just don't personally like driving a jellybean MazHonToy sedan. All the soul of a rental car, to be honest.
Note - I'm avoiding the entire diesel thing entirely, as that currently leaves you VW, which are well, not quite the most reliable vehicles.(the new ones are fine, but way out of your budget)
Other choices that you might consider are the Honda Fit. Why? Because with the rear seat able to recline as it does, the legroom is enormous. Seriously, it has the rear legroom of a Buick. Sure, it only fits 4 in comfort, but so what? Hauls stuff pretty well, too, and the new model that just came out fixed a plethora of tiny issues. Basically the first gen Fit was brought over from Japan and the steering put on the other side - the rest of the car was still speced for Japanese driving. So the angles and mirrors and other small issues in the interior were reversed from U.S. norms. That's been fixed. Very nice car now.
Then again, there's nothing wrong with a GM, either. A 1-2 year old Grand Prix can be had for about your budget. This fits 4 nicely, and while some say it's not good enough for the interior, it's no worse than any other sedan out there. ie - it may seem tacky compared to an Avalon, but it's loads nicer than a Yaris.
Get the 3.8L engine. It's bulletproof and reliable. The 4 speed automatic may be a bit stodgy, but it gets good MPG(28-30mpg highway in real world driving). It's also one of the least expensive transmissions to fix as well(huge plus in my book). Half the price to fix it compared to a Camry, actually.
And, since you're looking at used, the transmission is a huge factor.
Plus, it has the goodies like traction control, ABS, and so on as normal equipment. (the Mercedes also has this advantage - even a bare bones luxury car has all the safety equipment). The Grand Prix also has three things that I like about it.
1 - It's stupidly low priced now. I've seen one year old models going for about what a new Yaris goes for.
2 - 100K drive train warranty starting in 2007. Get one with 20K on it and enjoy 80K more miles without worrying about it. Note- if it's certified, you can extend the factory warranty more years if you drive less. (ie - 8/120K is common and hardly any more money)
3 - The shifter is 1-2-3-4 all in a single line and dead simple to shift as such in traffic. If you remember the shifter on the old Volvos, it's identical. First, it has a legitimate first gear(most automatics now don't) - and it's easy to nudge it from first to second or hold out overdrive. Combined with the sport suspension option, it actually drives very well. It's the least obnoxious automatic in any car that I know of. It doesn't try to out-think you, doesn't have paddles/a stupid +/- or other idiocy. It has a lever and you can manually override it whenever you wish.
Large, good mpg, long warranty, depreciates like a rock. Makes it a very good used value.I picked Pontiac because it's the sportiest yet least expensive version GM makes with the 3.8L engine.
I plugged in $13K, any distance, and certified/used 2008 Grand Prix into Autotrader and it spit back 280 hits. $12K gave me 79 results. This is the asking price. How low you can actually haggle now if you have cash? 11K consistently. For $11K, it's an absolute steal. That buys a 5-6 year old Civic? I have driven both and while it's nice, a Civic is still an economy car.
Note - that's a 40% drop in value in a *year*(22K minus 3-4K in rebates - about $18K was typical last fall on a base model)- that's most of the first decade's depreciation out of the way. Expect it to lose 1K a year after that if you do buy it for 11-12K. That's quite decent depreciation, actually.
Otherwise, Ford Freestyle, Chrysler Pacifica, most any late model domestic would still have a long life ahead of it at $15k.
Anywho we have been setting aside money to go towards a minivan for a little since it is something we knew we wanted to get at some point. basically since both out current cars are paid off we been putting aside $300 a month to "pretend" we have a payment and eventually use to go towards a down payment.
So I suppose the first question I have is when to buy? DH gave me the ability to be able to buy without him and all trusting my judgement and all. I'm okay with that but i prefer not to. Or do I wait till he get back and we try to do it during the two we have in atlanta before we actually move? or do we suck it up and just wait till we get to seattle... or do we just flat out don't get a mini van?
The next question is if we get one which one? Our biggest thing is Safety. but after that we don't really know. I suppose cost would be next. we are looking at $300 a month payment... $350 if we really really had to... We are leaning towards new and perhaps a Toyota, Honda, Kia, Hyuandai or Nissian. I'd like some comforts: power seat controls, tinted back windows, nothing too fancy. We aren't really fans of the wood looking stuff and prefer cloths seats to what ever the other thing is lol.
hmmms not sure what else i can add... but yelp!
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
Might the most convenient option be to sell the Saturn now and buy the new vehicle after moving, so you do not have to drive two vehicles from Atlanta to Seatlle?
It looks like all of them are pretty safe, with just some possible differences in rear crash whiplash protection (sometimes the ratings are low, just because one needs to actually have the head restraint properly adjusted)
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=80
We aren't really fans of the wood looking stuff and prefer cloths seats to what ever the other thing is lol. Good to hear and welcome to the exclusive anti-wood/anti-leather club.
Never shop for a car based on monthly payment. Only shop based on the price of the vehicle, and then determine what the monthly would be. There is big difference in how much you will end up paying at $300 per month on a 4, 5 or 6 year loan. If you shop based on monthly payments, unscrupulous dealers will take advantage of you. To calculate the monthly payment, go to bankrate.com calculators. If your husband is in the service, you can get 4% apr from the Pentagon Credit Union (penfed.com), if your credit is good. Regardless, before you go shopping get preapproved, so that you won’t be tricked into a higher apr than you qualify for.
As far where to buy, if you are buying new, buy it in the state with lowest sales tax.
Depending on how much you have to put down, you can get a new Honda Odyssey LX for under $22K. That’s invoice minus factory to dealer incentives. I would stay away from Kia, Hyundai or Nissan because they are not as reliable.
$350/month... You're looking at closer to a 6 year loan, which I never like recommending, but, in your price range should be a base Honda Odyssey LX or a Toyota Sienna LE- both fit your specs and will be solid choices for years to come.
Do some research and see where pricing is more competitive; since you're comparing Atlanta and Seattle, I doubt there would be any huge supply issue with Odysseys and Siennas. If you could save a bit more for your down payment before taking the plunge, it'd definitely lower your payments and you could shorten up your loan term.
Have you considered perhaps a used Toyota Sienna? The Sienna has had the same basic design since 2004 with a freshening in 2006/2007 (exterior trim changes, reshuffling of options, new wheels, and the new 3.5L engine) so if you found say, a used 2007 model, it'd be almost exactly like the new '09 model but a bit cheaper.
I say wait a little bit; take a friend with you when you go test driving who's calm, cool, and controlled in buying situations to keep you in check and to keep you from doing anything rash.
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I never liked anything longer than a 36 month loan, regardless of the car.
Not sure why it makes a difference, new vs used, at least in Washington you pay sales tax on either.
The tax in Washington is 9%+ (it varies somewhat by city/county) AND, if you bought it recently (I think within 6 months) and payed no sales tax (as in Oregon), you have to pay the Washington sales tax when you register it. I don't know for certain, but I think that if you paid tax to a state with a lower rate, you may have to pay the difference to Washington. :sick:
Odyssey is huge, lots of room, great van. Buy this is you need space above all else. Mileage is good compared to an SUV but it's no economy car.
Take a look at the Mazda 5 if you don't want it TOO big. We've been really pleased at the combination of features in this vehicle and are amazed why more people don't buy it. It's very highly rated by CU as safe and reliable. The Mazda 5 is like a micro-minivan with ability to seat 6 in three rows. Definitely not as roomy as an Odyssey, it has a lot of room in a small package with outstanding visibility and maneuverability. Each second row kid gets their own captain's chair. Drives more like a sporty sedan than a minivan as it is based on the Mazda 3. Excellent crash test scores, side curtain airbags even in rear rows. Not as tall as an SUV so much reduced rollover risk. Sliding doors are great in tight parking spaces. And still a lot of room for cargo. Good mileage and a lot of content for the price.
We really don't want a minivan, but could probably be talked into one. But when I price them out with all the features we want there in the 40K + department. Here's options we think we might need in at least one of the cars:
3rd row for when we bring a grandparent along
sliding doors? (we live in san francisco, tight parking)
captains chairs - to make access to 3rd row easier, since we will have carseats
hybrid would be nice, but not a must
I have been all over the map with what to get. Was looking at the mercedes R class, but read that the doors are really long, thus tough to load kids in when parked next to other cars. Started looking at the toyota highlander hybrid, but don't know much about it. Love the look of the range rover sport, but know they're unreliable and no 3rd row. But both cars wouldn't need a third row. We had a Saturn Outlook for a few months but returned it under the lemon law because the gas gauge didn't work. We have been looking at them again, but hesitant to go with GM because of their financial issues.
Any suggestions?
In terms of the 3-series and getting the kids in and out, I always tell folks NOT to buy a vehicle based on your little kids. Don't forget, they won't be little for long and they'll be climbing in and out themselves. My G35 is plenty roomy now that my 3-year-old climbs in by himself and all I have to do is buckle him in.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I distinctly remember in late 99 trying out several cars and running the two Jennifer test (Jennifer being my wife and the tallest person in the family) . At the time we had two kids aged 10 and 7.
The test involved having Jen get in the driver's seat and make herself as comfy as can be as if she were driving. once she got that all set she sat in teh seat directly behind it to see how that felt. The theory was that the kids would end up about her size.
OK, it's now almost 10 years down the road. The Subaru Legacy wagon we really liked failed the test and we bought an Accord sedan (there was a Passat in the running as well and it passed the test but I got cold feet on VW reliability). So here all this time later we still have the Accord. Neither of the kids ever got as tall as Jen and at 20 and 16 aren't likely to. now we do have two seven year olds but I'll take my chances there.