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Comments
Now... Let's say you are a guy with a budget limit and the R8 is out of range... you could consider a Cayman or Boxster, or even a Lotus or Corvette, but that GT-R is a serious contender that represents massive performance... But at the sacrifice of some luxury... Surely there will be those that will choose it even when they can afford more, and especially when financially constrained at that level.
That said, if I weren't able to afford my Carrera S, personally I'd pick the Cayman or Boxster S before the GT-R.
Let me put it this way... If there was a budget limit...
1. Cayman S
2. Boxster S
3. GT-R
4. Corvette
5. BMW Z4
6. Audi TT
7. Lotus Exige
8. Lotus Elise
9. Honda S2000 CR
Come on Tag, you are biased of course. We are talking about preferances here, so your "brand loyalty" is what it is. You own a Porsche & your next 2 choices are.....Drum roll please.............surprise...........A PORSCHE and a PORSCHE! Actually, no surprise, you like what you like.
I remember seeing the iRobot Audi at an auto show. It is interesting that Audi has used so many of those styling cues already on the R8. Lexus has yet to build anything that looks remotely like the Minority Report car.
Actually the Infiniti FX35/45 is a direct competitor to the X5 and Cayenne. Lexus doesn't make performance oriented products. Thats why the IS-F could be a huge flop, Lexus customers just don't buy those kinds of cars. (Or they do, but from another brand). The Acura MDX could also be considered X5 competition.
Oh yes! I never thought I would live long enough to see the Red Sox win it all and 2004 changed everything for them. After that 2004 World Series, the Yankee fans and some other Red Sox haters were telling me that it would take another 86 years for them to do it again. Ya right! They will probably win it again in 2008. And what can I say that has not already been said about the best NFL team, the best QB, and the best coach of all time? I have been in sports heaven with the Red Sox and Patriots in recent years.
A Patriots/Packers Super Bowl would be awesome. I would venture to guess that a Pats/Packers or a Pats/Cowboys Super Bowl would attain the highest TV ratings ever as the Pats go for 19 and 0.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I went to the auto show down here and the only vehicle I felt completely comfortable in was the BMW 335i sedan. Plenty of legroom. More than "my" ( read BMWFS') 545i. BMW must have recently increased the seat travel, for which I am extremely grateful-being 6'2" and well-built isn't always easy!
I sat in the Lexus RX. Not even close on the legroom. Lexus' model of an average-sized North American must be 5'8"! What was astonishing are the pencil-thin armrests-one for the driver and one for the front-seat passenger. I have never seen that before in any vehicle. I thought they took the real ones out just for the auto show! LOL! How do they get away with that? This is a luxury vehicle? One finds better in a GD Kia, for heavens sake!
Anyhow, Dewey. BMW's always fit me like a glove. They just plain get it right. What a fantastic company! Ol' Reliable!
Try not to get provoked by those jealous posters who try to put down BMW vehicles. Anyone who does and says he has driven one.... hasn't.
We may not have great teams down here like they have in Bahstin, but I can bike and golf here 365 days a year. pretty good climate for rear-wheel drive BMW's too!
A fair trade-off, IMO.
What do you think would make more sense?... Show me your preferential list if you were attempting to combine luxury and performance in any combination you like. Are you suggesting that just because I like Porsche cars, that the Cayman S and Boxster S aren't top contenders for cars that combine luxury with performance?
TagMan.
Gallardo vs. the R8?
Talk about sibling rivalry within the VW family.
Everytime I get a new car my first visits are both to a Honda and a BMW dealership. Lately though my passion for BMW driveability over-rides my craving for Honda Accord sensibility.
Thank God there is no resemblancet.
Personally I like the looks of the LF-A Lexus better than this Minority Report One.
I despise the comfort and luxury of various marques and I know perfectly well at a dealers lot I will despise them even more after a so-called objective test drive.
There are three folks here who claimed how they dislike BMWs relative to Lexuses and here's the shocker---all three of them are devoted Lexus owners.
Biases are ingrained in all of us especially among forum members who love expressing their views on various cars.
Very well said, clap, clap, clap!!! :shades:
It would be really nice if we all acknowledged that fact and stopped acting like "bias" is a dirty word or a dirty feeling. It's just something that is inherent in intense feelings - about cars or anything else. Anything that encourages passion in us also creates bias; bias here meaning we love what we love. That's just reality!
Happy holiday season, everyone!
Ditto with the Acura MDX. I need more space.
I wouldn't touch the new Accord what with more and more complaints being expressed concerning the VCM system. Folks have been reporting sudden bursts of acceleration alternating with hesitation with the darn thing. Seems the VCM gets confused at certain speeds and can't decide on the correct number of cylinders.
Being used to BMW-like perfection, this would drive me completely insane.
Also EPA of 20/29 with the VCM sure doesn't show any significant fuel saving. BMW has been producing similar EPA stats with its smooth, non-hesitating, non-spurting, non-VCM incomparable inline 6's for years.
Then you have the stupid idiot light showing you that the VCM is "working." What's up with that? It doesn't tell you how many cylinders are functioning. Totally useless, IMO.
The clincher for me is I find the new Accord one of the ugliest vehicles I have ever seen. So bloated! A poor rip-off of the BMW 5 Series. Surely the re-designed Camry looks much better than the new Accord, IMO. And I have never been a fan of the Camry re-design; although I must say I do like its ultimate refinement as the Lexus ES 350.
If only we could have Lexus design the cars and interiors teamed up with BMW doing the seats, engines, transmissions and balance. :shades:
It is looking very much like a BMW 3 Series sedan for me next summer, Dewey; only not from my current dealer. We have had our "differences".
If we can be biased without being insulted for it, then we would darn near have a perfect forum!
TagMan
On the fuel econ note, 20/29 is relatively good for a car packing 268hp, carring around over 3500 pounds, and is still relegated to a somewhat old-tech 5-speed autobox(even GM is on the verge of all 6-speeds).
The VCM worries have been somewhat over-hyped. It was the same thing with people in the new for '05 Odessey. "Holy Smokes....this thing takes off on it's own". Hondas have always had super-sensitive throttle tip-in. The '08 Accord EX-L V-6 I drove was seamless in the cylinder switching, which is not to say there aren't any probs with it.
The styling, while controversial, is purely subjective. Had I been in the Accord design department, I probably would have went an entirely different way myself. That droopy butt and pseudo-5-Series design language wouldn't have made the cut at all. But then again, the Camry ain't all that. It already looks dated to my eyes. For me, the Altima is still the best looking out of the CamCord crowd.
But this is for sure, the car is very roomy and takes the performance bar out of the window because even the sporty Altima,. Fusion, and Mazda 6 are way behind in terms of dynamics and overall performance appeal. And I love the cabin, save for the myriad of buttons, which was to avoid the COMAND, i-Drive, MMI, et al, dilema. And pound for pound, there isn't a better buy when factoring in Hondas unprecedented quality in the Accord line. Kudos to Honda.
I did not drive the vehicle. Some folks over at the Honda threads claim Honda has done little to fix the V6's deafening highway road noise. Others claim the VCM is quite noticeable.
I find the "look" of the new Accord quite tired and uninspired in a stale copycat sort of way. Been there. Done that. Enough already...
When are these guys going to hire a real professional design team? They just don't seem to get it.
A major disappointment after all that hype. I called the new Accord ugly and I stand by that description. To each his own.
I may drive the car in a few months. I am in no hurry after seeing it and sitting in it.
I call 'em as I see 'em... completely without close-mindedness and disrespect... my small way of attempting to make the Luxury Lounge a perfect forum. :shades:
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
Gosh darnit, I just dumped a steaming hot pile of cash on a $70K BMW. There's no way I'll be getting the R8 any time soon... summer of next year, at the earliest. But the question still remains, that if I don't end up with an R8, what will I do? 335xi coupe and RS5 Cabriolet? RS4/S5 sedan/coupe and Porsche/BMW convertible?
-Tempted and Confused-
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
If I recalled correctly that you don't drive your car on a daily basis correct? You stated that the TTC is your mode of transportation to and from work, so your 335i must be a weekend fun toy for you. I am sure your weekday errands are done in your wife BMW touring... by this I am sure vehicle comfort and luxury are not high on your list of priorities because you don't spend enough time sitting in GTA grid locked traffic.
I propose a challenge for you that you take your 335i out during the rush hours going to and from one of our suburbs for at least 3 consecutive days a week, for a month, and then report back to see if your bias against the idea of luxury and comfortable vehicles still hold true.
Also, while I found that the 328i driver seat is comfortable and providing a lot of support for spirited driving wearing light clothing, but on the negative side is that the side bolsters(?) are too tight on the seat back with no adjustment avalaible when wearing a fall/winter jacket. I can't see how someone with a large frame would fit at all.
It is definately uninspiring, IMO, and seems quite generic. I believe that the new Accord needed to have been a clear style winner that would have distanced itself from the Camry.
Now, I'm not saying the car isn't a terrific vehicle with tons of merit. I almost always give Honda credit for their engineering, but the new Accord's style puts me to sleep.
Like you, I'm calling it as I see it, without close-mindedness and disrespect... in an everlasting attempt to continue to make the Luxury Lounge a perfect forum. :P
TagMan
Nice to see you posting again!!!
Maybe its the old 5-speed auto thats the culprit, because I honestly don't think 20/29 is anything to shout about. Why is it taking Honda and Nissan so long to move on past 5-speeds? The domestics used to be the "yestertech" jokes with their 4-speed autos, but as you've said, most of their cars now either already have or are moving to 6. Nissan at least has their DSG and CVT, but what does Honda have?
From what I've seen of the new one on the road, I don't think it's bad. It has some presence, which the last "cheetah inspired" car, completely lacked. The 2003 Accord was just awful, and got worse when they tried to refresh the rear end.
I do agree with you about the 5-speed. Considering the alternatives in use today, it's ancient, IMO.
TagMan
Those tail lights on the new Accord sedan are a real mess, IMO. In darker colors, they look like they simply don't fit-as if they have been poorly glued on.
At the auto show last month, the only new Accord sedan was roped off! Like it was some kind of fabulously expensive 2009 future model. LOL!
I sat in one at a dealer last week. The interior looked cheap and that was top of the line. The driver's seat was much too firm. I suppose it would make a decent second vehicle after the Porsche/BMW, to be driven when the wife/son/daughter borrows your pride and joy.
I am anticipating disappointing frequency of repair stats by the end of March for the V6 Accord due to the added complication of the VCM.
I'm hoping for a 3 Series diesel by early summer, but I doubt if that will happen.
So, I will most likely lease a 3 Series sedan for 2 years.
I read some previous posts here of 550i vs 535i. The 535i cannot touch the 550i in acceleration and is not as much fun to drive. Nothing like BMW's V8 throaty growl when floored. Put that twin-turbo in the 3 Series, however, and it is a different ball game. Those who want the ultimate 5 Series which the 550i definitely is will pay dearly for it. As for me, I can't wait to get back in a 3 Series. So much more tossable than the heavier 545i.
I was in Ontario, Ca recently-part of the vast "Inland Empire." Man is it crowded there! A lot of crazy drivers too. I seemed to assimilate quite easily.
Checking CR Online vehicle reliability, I notice the BMW 3 Series rated better than average, Porsche 911, rated better than average, Camry V6, worse than average, Lexus GS, worse than average, Lexus ES, average. Some significant changes!
However, beyond styling, I feel there is no other drawback to this car. It's fuel econ numbers ARE within acceptable range for the class. The Camry V-6 achieves 22/31(when it works!), but somehow that is MUCH better than 20/29? Oh, and you won't be getting a 6-speed manual in the Camry V-6 anytime soon.
And the Accord will sell on it's own merits alone, styling not withstanding. Years of unsurpassed quality and a loyal following will ensure that the Accord is still in the top 3 of sedans sold in this country.
As to why they're so stuck on 5-speed transmissions, that remains a mystery to even me. As forementioned, even GM has placed a 6-speed in almost everything in the stable.
Challenge complete. Not only do I drive in and out suburbia 3 days a week, it's more like 6 in my 335i. No car in the class delivers a better ride/handling mix. Even the nastiest ruts on the L.I.E. or FDR can't upset this car.
The IS, OTOH, I found very unsettling and overly stiff in 350 form. It attempted to take a page from the 3-Series, and failed miserably in the process of doing so.
I actually still like BMW vehicles just as much as before my test drive; I just expected more based on the hype that has been generated about these vehicles - especially by you and HPowders, among others, on this forum.
I thought that the the 3-series would make my car feel like an old Lincoln Town Car by comparison; I thought that I would dread getting back into my own car after experiencing the 3-series. I was fully prepared for the possibility that I would have to visit Classic BMW that weekend to purchase a 3-series. None of this came to pass.
While the 3-series was an enjoyable vehicle, it did not live up to my expecations based on the hype that preceded it. If the 3-series failed to live up to the hype, then I have no reason to believe that the 5-series will be any better. The 3 and my GS just felt too similar in ride and handling (during my driving conditions) for me to leap over to the BMW dealership. The 3 had better handling than the GS, but that was only apparent when I drove the vehicle far more aggresively than I would normally drive on a daily basis. I also preferred my car's steering in city driving, but the 3's steering on the highway; I spend most of my time in the city, so the steering in my GS is a better fit.
Overall, the handling advantages of the 3 were not significant enough to overcome its comfort deficit versus the GS, among the many other things that I prefer about my car over the 3-series.
Since I know that the 3-series is the established handling benchmark among all sedans (large and small), it was comforting to know that my own car handles nearly as well as a 3-series in routine driving conditions, but is superior to the 3-series in comfort and other areas that are very important to me. This certainly is not a knock on the 3-series; it is an exceptionally well-engineered vehicle and I was still very impressed with it. It just does not trounce the competition the way that you, HPowders, others on this forum, and the professional reviewers would have the public to believe.
Even the clumsy Lexus ES can handle routine driving situations just fine.
However, when some dingbat on a cellphone decides to visit me at 75 miles per hour in another lane with me already occupying that space, I prefer the split second agility, balance and braking of a BMW 3 Series.
Both the 545i and the 325i have helped me avoid several accidents. These vehicles have probably saved my life.
BMW's are for folks who can appreciate the unexpected, non-routine.
My wife sure appreciates this, as she has told me she will not have me drive anything else. She feels safe in a BMW. That's good enough for me.
Now with its reliability (Source: CR) surpassing the fallen from grace Lexi ES and GS, the BMW 3 Series is indeed a fine all-around choice as Ultimate Driving Machine.
I will proudly take temporary possession of my 4th consecutive BMW next August.
I hope the line isn't extra-long due to all the sadly disillusioned ex-Lexus folks.
Is it possible CR is more objective than previously thought?
I have had fairly good luck with 3 BMW vehicles. It's nice to see CR ratings catch up to what I already know.
[This is an example of over-hyping the capabilities of a BMW versus its competitors.]
My car has handled these instances exceptionally well and I have also avoided many potential accidents; I have never even touched someone else's bumper in this car. BMW's do not have a monopoly on safe accident-avoidance behavior. The brakes in my car are astounding and the vehicle is very agile for a 3800+ pound sedan. I feel very safe in my GS - more than I would even in most trucks and SUVs.
BTW, I have a 2nd-generation GS - and it is still rated as having "Much Better Than Average" Reliability by Consumer Reports (from the April 2007 issue).
I still have over 2 years left on my unused extended warranty, so I really never had any reason to shop for another vehicle anyway - other than pure pleasure. The 3-series was nice, but I certainly would not trade out of my GS prematurely to get into one.
IMO both the 3 series and the GS are OK but nothing special. Not to mention that they are both way overpriced. You are paying for a lot of advertising and sizzle but not much beef. BMW and Lexus could do a lot better.
Hopefully the Koreans will someday hit one out of the park and give these guys some incentive.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
For folks of any height and build who love to drive, I heartily recommend the BMW 3 Series. There is a reason it is called the Ultimate Driving Machine.
The sales surely reflect this. Can one say sales of the Lexus GS approach that of the 3 Series or the 5 Series, its direct competitor?
Given the poor reliability rating of the GS by CR, Lexus should finally be able to put the tepid-selling, practically-extinct failure of a GS to bed. Straight down Edsel Road. :shades:
It took me 4,736 posts in Edmunds to conclude the above.
Better late than never..
The i4 Accord's mileage is awful and not much better than a V6. A fuel efficient Accord may only exist as a diesel.
. I am sure your weekday errands are done in your wife BMW touring
Somedays I take the subway and othe days I drive my 335i. I like shifting my own gears no matter what traffic is like.
I hardly ever drive my wife's wagon on weekdays. Since I dont drive daily to Home Depot/Costco my 335i is sufficient for daily errands.
In all honesty I dont see how a IS350 would improve my daily errands nor do I see how a IS350 would improve your errands?
Of course, as for myself, I can't wait to TD a BMW 3 Series diesel. Sure wish one would become available in NA before August 1, 2008.
I agree with you that the Accord would be the choice if I was shopping for a family sedan. The new Malibu is already being criticized for its too-light steering. Then there is the reliability issue. The Altima interior is too cheap-looking. The Camry is a boring appliance.
One thing's for sure, Dewey... driving BMW's since 1993 has spoiled me for life. I have become so super-critical of steering, brakes, seats, legroom, body-lean, float, transmission and engine... all things I can easily take for granted as being the best when I drive a BMW-truly some of the best vehicles on earth.
Finally truth in advertising. BMW got it right with the "Ultimate Driving Machine."
What great bargains considering what you get! :shades:
BMW sedan performance overhyped? Ofcourse it's overhyped!
Any car that is considered number one by the majority will end up being overhyped.
Volvo safety is overhyped.
Toyota hybrids are overhyped
Lexus reliability is overhyped
MB quality is overhyped.
When a car is that terrific, it is impossible to over-rate. As a matter of fact, the words have not been invented yet to express the ecstasy the BMW 3 Series experience provides.
People can't get enough of the BMW 3 Series. Sales are going through the roof!
That's called REALITY!! Heh! Heh!
Who knows why some people here try to bash the unbashable. I don't have a psychology degree. Heh! Heh!
Some people choose to be chronically unhappy, I guess.
My heart goes out to you folks.
It's good that I am here Dewey to provide a more balanced approach.
The funny thing is that I almost agree with this statement. After my more extensive experience with the current GS early this month at the Taste of Lexus event, I have conclusively removed it from consideration for future purchase; I would rather have the Infiniti M, BMW 5, or Audi A6 in this size/price class. I would rather keep my 2nd-gen GS than "upgrade" to the current generation. I am concerned about the future sales trends for the current GS line.
For sonnambulic folks 5'8" and shorter who see cars as merely appliances to get from one place to another, indeed go with Lexus.
This is an exceedingly foolish and sophomoric statement - one of the worst that I have seen recently; please grow up. You seem to have a very difficult time understanding that not everyone is looking for the same things in a vehicle that you are; this does not make them boring or lifeless, as you have insinuated with the trashy comment above. If you have to insult others and their vehicle choices to feel like you are an exciting person, you must not have much depth to your personality at all.
The BMW 3 & 5 do not hold significant advantages over the IS & GS in the handling department, as you have so hyped. The BMW's are clearly superior handlers, but the difference is by no means night and day. If I only cared about handling, I would not own a sedan in the first place - now would I?
Good observation!
In no way have I bashed the 3-series. I still believe that it belongs on its pedestal as the best-handling regular-production sedan available and it does provide a better ride/handling balance than my own car (no ride penalty but slightly better handling). I just expected it to rip my car to shreds, but it didn't.
I have not stated that the any GS is objectively better than any 3-series, just that my 2nd-gen GS is a better match for me than a 3-series at this time.
I like the 3-series and I think the coupe is gorgeous. If the 3-series were what I expected, I would be in one now. As it stands, I will consider it when it is officially time to look for another vehicle (2009-2010, perhaps). However, my experience with the 3-series was enjoyable, but not enough to motivate me to go car shopping in late 2007-early 2008 instead of late 2009-early 2010.
I am very happy with my current car and I was happy with the 3-series, but it just may take something like a Porsche to pry me out my GS prematurely. Unfortunately, I am not looking for such a car as a my next vehicle.
Anyway, after much lusting after a Boxster (see, Tag I didn't forget to spell it correctly), and an M3, I realized if the wife doesn't get what she wants FIRST, I'd never get what I want. SO I pested the wife on buying a new car. She was only interested in a HYBRID, so I said why not a Camry, Prius or Civic.
The Prius is just hideous looking (apologies to Prius owners, just MHO), and the Civic was just not doing it for me. We ended up with a 2008 TCH, loaded with everything.... At ~$28K +TTL, that was not a bad deal. So far we are getting about 32mpg on the first tank, and that included a lotta lead footed driving on a recent trip from San Diego to LA.
Let me say that I find absolutely NOTHING distinguishing on the new Accord. It is just a terrible design. What were they thinking? Compared to the Camry styling, the Accord should go back to the drawing board. Trying to ape the BMW and the RL didn't work on this new Accord. Puleaze!!! My TCH is pretty cool looking. I'll be upgrading the wheels to 18" chrome rims, Eibach springs to lower it 1.5", tint all around (35% front/15% rear), spoiler, and a grille set. That car will look awesome after all my additions. My first car I'd like to mod cos its the prettiest of all the 3 cars we have.... And my teenagers love it, which means I get a cool-factor from my kids. It'll be their daily driver within a year when my 15-yo starts driving next Summer.
There is a good reason the Camry will continue to rule the mid-size family sedan class. Its got style, flare, features, and now drives a lot better. What is there not to love about the Camry??
Sounds like we are about to sign up another happy customer? ("It belongs on its pedestal.")
As far as BMW not ripping your car to shreds in comparison, it all depends on how you drive your car. Do you accelerate through the curves or are you the type of person who slows down at the railroad tracks to avoid a bit of a jolt?
Anyone whose mission is to drive the interstate and/or do local errands surely doesn't need a BMW or Porsche.
I was reading the hype for months about the new Accord and its alleged "game-changing" design.
Even though, Oac, you know I am not a Toyota person, I find the Camry easier to look at than the bloated, ugly new Accord. If you are going to copy a design, at least pay big bucks to a team who is capable of doing it right!
I have been ridiculed here before for saying this, but I really like the culmination of the new Camry design in the ES 350.
Folks here say I am extremely conservative in my design preferences. If that is true, then I surely belong there with the majority of Americans.
By the way, did you TD any BMW 5 or 7 Series vehicles or the new LS?
I like to accelerate through curves, just like yourself. My problem is that there is usually someone in front of me that slows down through the curves, so I would not be able to enjoy the experience even if I were in a Porsche 911; this just happened to me last night, actually.
At least half of the time that I have the opportunity to drive a bit more aggressively (accelerating through curves, sharp left turns, etc.), a slow driver prevents me from attempting such racy moves.
Congrats on the Camry Hybrid! You may troll through my previous posts on several different forums expressing great thanks to Toyota for the effort they put into to creating this wonderful car. I do have one coveat: Since Toyota shared it's technology with Nissan, Nissan should've shared it's suspension wizardry with Toyota as the Altima Hybrid is absolutely more atheletic than the Camry.
But for more than 90% of the Camry Hybrid buyers out there, this doesn't matter as long as they're contributing to the Green Factor.
Now to that Porsche: Shall it be Boxster or Cayman?
Well, now you know I don't like the Accord style very much, because I just posted it earlier today, and I agree the TCH makes a bunch of good sense for a car in its category... but to be fair to the Accord, I think it still has some serious merit. But it kind of missed the boat this time around... as it really should have been more revolutionary than only evolutionary at this point in time.
I hope you get yourself a Porsche soon. It's one of only a few cars that can truly put and keep a smile on any face... absolutely terrific cars... F-U-N all the way.
BTW, OAC, keep on the lookout... I'm thinking of posting a very "unfair and unbalanced" post here one day very soon.
TagMan