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Hey didn't MB, GM and Chrysler in the past few years use that very same excuse as Toyota is doing right now :lemon:
The Economist
Interesting article, but I did not read anything new in there, just more of a good summary of the information we've already seen.
But, I do want to make this point... IMO, GM's Chevrolet Volt is the real concern looming over Toyota's plug-in and battery situations. Why? Because the Volt will use advanced batteries being developed by CPI and A123. In case you are not aware of this, these battery companies are truly hardcore... comprised of a small group of incredibly brilliant minds that even Toyota will be hard-pressed to compete with.
(If I knew how, and if it were possible, I would invest seriously in A123.)
TagMan
Yup back to hybrids again. I am guilty as charged.
If I knew how, and if it were possible, I would invest seriously in A123
Dont know? My investment style is contrarian and a very hot company that is the best in A123 is far too hot for me since my focus is on cold and neglected undervalued companies that nobody wants to touch with a 20 foot pole.
The days when a Toyota (or a Honda) blew everyone else out of the water in terms of quality and reliability are long gone. That said, I still wouldn't buy a GM product. Not because of CR or JD Power statistics, but because when something does go wrong, the company reacts like this: GMC Acadia disaster
I wouldn't buy a Ford or Chrysler either, but that has more to do with them not having a single interesting, compelling product.
More worrying for Toyota should be the quality problems at Lexus. The idea of an Audi A6 being more reliable than a Lexus GS would've been laughable 5 years ago. Not anymore.
Oh, by the way, Lutz has already confirmed that the production version of the Volt will look nothing like the concept. He actually joked that the Volt concept might achieve better aerodynamics if placing it backward in the wind tunnel.
I've sworn them off, too... after the last Denali that was just one service nightmare after another.
But lately I've taken a kinder look at the General... afterall, we now have the Buick representing an equivalent domestic Lexus in terms of quality and reliability!
In fact, the Buick may even be BETTER than the Lexus next year in realiability.
We also have GM on the forefront in terms of the upcoming Chevrolet Volt. We have GM's patented two-stage hybrid about to hit the market in the hybrid Tahoe and Yukon, representing 40% mileage gains and 25% overall gains.
And, less significant, but let's not forget the Corvette is now a reasonable value and a better car than it ever was, and that the Camaro will be forthcoming again, and it appears it will be a potential winner.
All reasons to give GM credit where credit is due. (Fair and Balanced...LOL.)
TagMan
All Chinese tin cans can probably achieve Lexus-like reliability if the powertrains and overall general design remain unchanged for 20 years...
What was Buick selling back in 2004 and what was Lexus selling?
Ford would probably be the most reliable car manufacture if they sell nothing but CV, GM and TC.
That's great, but where's the product? There isn't a Buick I find even remotely interesting. The Lucerne makes an ES350 seem like a BMW. Hybrid Tahoes and Yukons are still Tahoes and Yukons, enormous body-on-frame dinosaurs. No thanks. I wouldn't drive one even if it got 30mpg.
That is an opinion and EVERYTHING I've read so far indicates there is nothing at all to substantiate any genuine reliability of Chinese cars. It is anticipated that there will be large variances of reliability when they hit our market soon... but the FACT is the data is unknown.
IMO, there will be learning curves associated with safety of Chinese cars, and we will initially see poor results from Chinese cars in the crash tests, but that is only my personal opinion. Afterall, as you said, they are tin cans.
TagMan
No disagreement whatsoever.
I'm not suggesting the product is equivalent... just the reliability, which is the credit that is due GM regarding the Buick. In fact it may surpass Lexus in the future. Coming from GM, that is remarkable, IMO.
Also, don't act like all of Lexus products are up-to-date, as you know their SUVs are very long in the tooth.
Now, regarding the Yukon... if it got a true 30 mpg, I think I'd consider it, as it was a very handy SUV... and once again I'd get the extended service agreement, which in the past saved my wallet many thousands of dollars.
TagMan
TM
:P
Buick tied Lexus on the JDP 3-year reliability report. So that means that the models used were 2004 models back in 2003.
Guess what, that's exactly the first year of the current RX. What was the newest model that Buick had back then?
I never posted anything that indicated I expect Buick to equal Lexus on "product". In fact I clarified that for LG, in a recent post. I'm only referring to reliability. But, I actually have higher expectations from Lexus than Buick, (which may be a mistake to expect, based upon some of the remarks being posted.)
TagMan
TM
I sat in two new 2008 Accord EX V-6 sedans-one leather and the other cloth. I had plenty of time to adjust the driver's seats in both. No matter what I did-up, down and all around the town, I could not get enough legroom to satisfy me.
I drove the cloth version around town and on the interstate about 20 minutes total.
The Accord V-6 has plenty of smoothly accelerating power. It doesn't take much to get it moving. Nice low-end torque. The smooth, powerful acceleration is the best thing about this vehicle.
I found both the left door elbow rest and the console elbow rest uncomfortable.
The lumbar support is virtually non-existent. I tried and tried but hardly felt any support. This after reading some reviewers complaining about "overly-intrusive lumbar support." I don't know what they are talking about.
Unfortunately the trip computer with its mpg readout gets lost below the steering wheel, so I had to lean up almost out of the seat in order to see it.
The automatic gear shift selector is disconcertingly difficult to move from one slot to another. This came as a complete surprise. I expected more from Honda. The selector felt very cheap.
The steering is disappointingly light. No excuse for this at highway speeds. I felt like I was steering a Lexus.
There is a "ECO" that lights up and disappears. This is the VCM light telling you when all 6 cylinders are being used or not. This remained off for most of my drive indicating I was using all 6 cylinders most of the time. What I found hilarious is that when I questioned the salesman initially about where the VCM light is, he couldn't tell me and had to call someone back at the dealer for help. He finally found out it was the "ECO". I think this shows that the 4 cylinder model is what he mostly sells.
Still no excuse for not knowing the answer to such an obvious question.
I found the VCM totally imperceptible driving in town and on the highway.
The vehicle had only 33 miles on it. The mpg showed 19! Yikes! My V-8 545i consistently shows 20-21. What happened to the VCM's helping out here??
Overall, I must say, I would find this vehicle fatiguing.
I walked away unimpressed and disappointed with the new EX V-6 Accord Sedan.
As a side-note: The salesman told me business is "slow." I believed him as there were plenty of new Accords on the lot and lots of salespeople standing around with their hands in their pockets. Good prices are probably there for the taking.
Excellent post!
TagMan
Ahhhh!
The problem here is probably not with the Honda. It's your high expectations developed from driving a 60K 5 series ( that you may or may not be aware of ). Unless money is a constrain which I highly doubt, I am willing to bet that your next car will come from a high end brand.
Btw, good report on the test drive.
-Moo
Go figure. :confuse:
Again, thanks for the effort and the information.
TagMan
Ahhhh!
I know that feeling very well. There's been so many test drives where I've gotten back into my own car and thought "now this is how its supposed to be".
Every car I take the trouble to check out is a vehicle I may consider purchasing or leasing.
Anybody here who thinks I am going to drive 100-200 miles round trip just to zing a vehicle must be nuts!!
The steering and the gearshift lever need work.
I don't think thats true at all. Friends have often requested my assistance to help them pick out a car, sometimes for their kids so we're talking about the cheap stuff. I was quite impressed by the Mazda3, even though I drove there in a Jag XK. Thats an even bigger step down than BMW 5 to Accord V6, but I was able to recognize that for what it is and what it costs, Mazda did a great job with the 3.
-Moo
They can do better.
I was talking about reliability alone, that's why I used the Chinese tin can example. Buick's models were riding on old (very old) technologies back in 2003 that's one major reasons why it can be tied with Lexus on the 3-year reliability study.
Likewise, if those Chinese tin cans are riding on very matured 20-year-old technologies then I am pretty sure that it'll be reliable as well.
Again, I am only talking about reliability, not quality.
-Moo
I think that is fairly typical, although I know that some people just decide what they want and don't even drive it!
I sometimes am curious enough about a car that I will drive it, even though I have no intentions of owning/leasing it.
In addition, I frequently like to test the competition to a vehicle I am considering to acquire, because it leaves me with a better sense of how my choice stacks up against the competition. Potentially, it could cause me to reconsider, but usually it reinforces my first choice.
Another example of reconsidering my first choice was recently, within the same model line-up (not the competition). it was actually the Porsche Targa S that I had expected to purchase, not the convertible. But, when I drove the latest version of the Porsche Targa, it was during the test drive that I discovered that when the glass roof panel is retracted, it's integrated shade motor housing blocks at least 50% of the rear visibility, and it was terribly hard to see out the back. I also realized that it did not have the open air experience that I expected. So... thankfully, I went for the Carrera S Cabriolet, which I am totally in love with.
When I tested the S-Class, I immediately went to Lexus to drive the LS460L to have a basis for comparision, and it was an interesting contrast between those two vehicles.
TagMan
Oh, and uhh... used cars are not in the consideration and that includes CPO MB, BMW and Audi.
Every car should have improvement, but what's the difference if the latest version doesn't meet the present-day need? It's pointless, IMO, to drive the previous version, unless you just personally want that kind of information. Only present-day competitors would be the appropriate vehicles to measure the present day Accord against, IMO. They are the most relevant to what one would purchase/lease.
TagMan
I just want to know...
1. Okay, the steering is light, but compare to what?
2. It gets 19 mpg with only 33 miles on it, the car hasn't even break in yet!! If most of the 33 miles were spend in city then I'll say that's very good.
3. The steering gear is cheap, okay, please show me a midsize sedan right now that doesn't have cheap interiors. Again, it is cheap compare to what? Last time I check in the auto show, although Honda has cheapened the new Accord a little bit inside compare to last gen it is still the best, if not the best, in class.
TM
edit: Lou, I'm not interested in purchasing these vehicles, and have minimum interest in how they drive... I would not take the time to drive them for the sake of comparison.
The S-Class, however did interest me, and there was always the possibility that I might purchase one... thus, the test drive and the LS test drive as well.
TagMan
Yes, could be true. or... the benchmark may not even exist. Sometimes the vehicle just plain doesn't hit the sweet spot at all, for clear reasons, as I do believe happened to our respected Mr. H.
But, I do maintain that the current competition is the best overall barometer for comparison.
TagMan
My IS was in the body shop for some cosmetic damage repair about couple months ago and the other insurance company rented me a Ford Fusion I4 for the duration. I had that car for 2 weeks and when I returned it, the rental car rep asked me how's the car. Being an honest person I said it was so-so at best. He then asked me what's not to like, I said road noise, build quality and bunch of other stuffs. He then asked what do I drive, I answered IS350. He laughed and told me that's all I have to say...
I understand, those questions were not toward to you, I was just thinking out loud back then.
I selected the Accord because several reviews have said it is fun to drive.
I found it has a nice engine and transmission. It has plenty of power.
It corners"okay", nothing special.
It is not a vehicle I found fun to drive.
Certain things glaringly stand out and need to be remedied:
Honda needs to work on the too-light steering and the cheap feel of and tough to move gearshift lever. They can do it if they care to.
They will probably not change the steering as the vehicle is mostly bought by older drivers.
If you are moving UP in vehicle tier, you are possibly a little more easily impressed with the features, amenities, performance, and/or ride quality/dynamics as compared to your present driver. That, as opposed to checking out a vehicle that is DOWN a tier or more from the current driver... in such a case the lack of some of the niceties can be a bit of a negative experience.
I think that makes good sense... but I am not inferring that it forces a bias, only that it can be an influencing factor.
TagMan
I've seen editors described Accord as "fun to drive" and also the Porsche Boxster as "fun to drive". However, I am pretty sure that they do not mean the Accord is equal to the Boxster in the "fun to drive" level.
That's why if right now we have a Chinese tin can owner to drive the Honda Accord, his review could (and should) be totally different from Mr. H's.
you're hooked on BMW and based on what you're writing no 12 Step Program will save you from BMW.
It's hard to pinpoint what it is about BMWs and calling it BMW DNA is kind of a cop-out. Those cold analytical BMW engineers have developed something that is almost animate in their charms. Id it the way they steer? Is it the drivetrain? Their suspensions? No it's not one of those specific things that makes BMWs special. It's how all the BMW attributes combine together that makes them so special.Drive a 30 year old BMW and you will feel the roots of the current BMWs. There's just something very special about them. I know that sounds way too subjective but heck I wont edit this post any further.
Regards,
from a fellow BMW Addict
I think that Accord would look and feel a lot better if you tucked that $40 grand behind your back for lumbar support! :shades:
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460