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I am glad you enjoyed the history and links. I perfectly understand neither Isettas nor Fiat 500s will road on USA streets—and by no means will do any renewed Biscuter!
Jose
Tagman inquired why a North American like me would be interested in an Isetta.
First and foremost I live in Midtown Toronto and drive a lot in downtown. A tinny econobox can be quite practical for me.
The nostalgice reason is that during my days of youth while visiting Europe I loved driving little econboxes like Trabants, Citroen 2CV, Wartburgs, Skodas (Communist made ones) and last but not least an Isetta.
Canada got SMART and now it's USA's turn to get SMART. The small car in North AMerica will become far more prevalent than what it is right now and I am confident Canada will be getting the new Isetta if it does exist.
Anyways I guess cheap tinny Econoboxes are an inappropriate topic for this forum
Good thing they have that "memory" button on the million-position power seats, or we could spend all morning trying to find that sweet spot all over again... especially after someone else in the family moved the seat!
TM
As I think about it, a part of me wants a tinny econobox, and a part of me says no way. I wonder if it's about how I see myself in the driver's seat of a car, or how I think others will see me when I'm in the driver's seat. Know what I mean? It's a very strange mix of thoughts and feelings. I don't know if it sounds familiar to anyone else, but I'm just being honest here, and that's how it is for me. There's a certain appeal, yet a certain dislike all rolled up together. I haven't figured it out quite yet. :confuse:
TagMan
For me to own one of those tinny cars I'll need AT LEAST a 300+HP sports sedan sitting in my garage.
I think it is a man thing...
I would always drive a lux-performance car if I am trying to make a good first impression on a client.
But I do yearn to have a second car that is very small, nimble and frugal with gas.
If I coincidentally met a "colleague for friend/girlfriend from my past" who caught me driving a economy tinbox car while he or she is driving a "Lambo" or SLR McLaren then I'd feel just a slight bit self conscious. :sick:
BUT I would not at all feel self-conscious from the people who are in my immediate social and professional circles since they already know who I am (frugal and "off the charts" with respect to many things other than cars).
All my life I've always desired to drive an econobox but deprieved myself due to my notions about the stigma involved with such a car. But with age comes wisdom and now I am thinking who gives a damned on what "people from my past" think when I may never ever see them again.
When I retired I'll get a Honda Civic Si.
:shades:
And when I retire I'll trade in my 2027 Rolls Royce for my dream car: A 2028 Honda Fit
Good thing they have that "memory" button on the million-position power seats, or we could spend all morning trying to find that sweet spot all over again... especially after someone else in the family moved the seat
I agree, but I keep changing the memory position. :P
So... What vehicle are we dealing with here?
TagMan
TOKYO (AP) — Toyota began recalling 264,000 luxury passenger vehicles over faulty fuel pipes Thursday, including 49,000 flagship Lexus cars sold overseas, the company said.
Included in the recall are Lexus models produced in Japan in 2005 and sold overseas, and Lexus, Mark X, and Crown models sold in Japan, according to Toyota Motor Corp. spokeswoman Yoshie Matsuura.
Faulty fuel pipe design on the recalled models could cause cracks and corrosion and lead to a fuel leak, according to a notice filed with the Transport Ministry.
In the United States, 26,274 Lexus GS300, 5,429 Lexus IS250, and 2,640 Lexus IS350 vehicles are being recalled, Matsuura said. The recalled models were exported from Japan, she said, adding that the same models were also being recalled in Canada, England, and Germany.
There have been 39 cases of trouble within Japan but no reports of injuries, according to the Transport Ministry. It was not immediately clear whether any problems have been reported elsewhere.
The Japanese automaker has been hit with quality control problems in recent years, as it ramps up production to meet booming demand. Toyota has promised to beef up quality checks.
First of all welcome to our forum.
Being Green is not my priority. Emissions are so low for most new vehicles that the differences are marginal at best especially when new car emissions are compared to older car emissions. To be Green all you have to do is dispose an old clunker to a scrap heap and then buy a new car.
So how important is being green for people under 30 (the most environment conscious group in our poplulation). Here's the results:
Among the other findings in the J.D. Power poll:
• Gas mileage is the most frequently mentioned reason for purchasing a vehicle.
• Consumer reviews on the Internet are most often cited as a source for avoiding a model.
• Seeking an environmentally friendly vehicle is one of the least-cited reasons for purchasing.
link title
It used to be that all Lexus vehicles were bullet proof. Then, after the quality problems out of Canada, all Lexus vehicles made in Japan were bullet proof. Now...
It really was inevitable. Eventually, even CR will have no choice but to reflect the truth about this. It's actually a shame, IMO... it shows that the benchmark can only get so high before it implodes upon itself.
TagMan
This is nothing more than a preemptive strike. Lexus is doing the right thing to avoid any actual problems. Other auto makers could find a lesson here on how to avoid actual problems before they happen. Bravo Lexus.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
For me 100 mph is the sweet spot between Fuel efficiency and pace. Many Diesel BMWs and Benzes sustain this speed and still offer MPG in the 30s.
the fastest Drive experience in US I had was in California, crawling at 82 mph and fearing radar like hell, otherwise most of the time high 75s and with very heavy eyelids.
OK, back to luxury Sedans. This is the kind of test I was looking for:
LEXUS LS 600H to raise the challenge of FE against the German Heavyweight diesels. Will the Lexus be a danger to the luxury sedans from MB, Audi and BMW?
http://www.autobild.de/artikel/Themen-Testberichte-Mit-Aussicht-auf-Erfolg-_4359- - 66.html
LEXUS LS 600 vs MB S 420 CDI vs BMW 745d vs AUDI A8 4,2 TDI
The lexus displays the best engine manners with a fully muted acceleration under light load.
Suspension, while very compliant on good roads, becomes quickly overwhelmed on uneven surfaces and transmit jitters to the body. The steering doesn’t provide much feedback.
Despite its more sports-oriented suspension, the Audi is doing much better on bad roads. The comfort mode allowed by the shock absorbers allow for a soft dive
The engine makes itself heard and it is done on purpose to support the dynamic character of the A8.
The BMW also plays along the same line with engine note. However it becomes uncomfortable under high speeds on quality-challenged surfaces. Its ride becomes confused and comes with much body movement .
On the contrary, the S remains undisturbed regardless of the road quality, profile and pace. This ease is the result of a perfect combination of control and damping. You can peacefully concentrate on the road, whereas competitor cars require much fiddling through menus and buttons to get any close result. First class seats and superior accommodation don’t spoil the pleasure.
In terms of performance, the AUDI has the clear advantage. 150Kg lighter than the BMW, up to 300KG less than the Lexus (660 lbs), the A8 leaps to 100 Km/h quicker than the others.
The Lexus demonstrate however how effective at intermediate speed pick-up (60-100 km/h) its ICE and Electric motor cooperate. Its acceleration is so seamless and smooth that it looks like slower than the more violent diesel rush. Figures show otherwise.
The diesels however display their advantages at high speed cruises. While the Lexus-V8 ICE is revving nervously towards the red zone from 200 km/h upwards, the three diesel still keep their RPM middle range, letting the turbocharger handle the work. The 250 km/h milestone is reached without issue. Just as problem-free do the four luxury liners come to a halt with all braking distances within a respectable 38 meters.
With a purchase price of approximately 85,000 euros, AUDI and BMW make the most attractive offers as they don’t lack luxury nor performance. The Mercedes is 3000 euros more but offers some more safety devices. The Lexus scratches the 100.000-Euro barrier. Arguably? When it comes to safety and comfort equipment, the Japanese really makes a full strike. But the consumption promise is not kept. Even if a minimum of 8.4 litres is possible, the difference between 12,1 litres premium fuel and approximately ten litres of Diesel is a real gap. The road to success is still long.
The LS 600h will certainly rejoice the person who loves new technology. The promised consumption advantage however needs a particularly careful foot.
The Diesels don’t require that much care with the pedal.
The AUDI was the fastest. the BMW the most prestigious. The Best All-rounder is the Mercedes Benz.
This is my translation of the key parts, I overstepped the description part as the lexus is pretty familiar to everybody here. Sorry by advance for any mistake, my English is impaired
Overall, Toyota/Lexus vehicles are showing clear symptoms of a problem with quality and reliability... Unlike before. As reported by numerous publications, it is REAL, and attributed to rapid growth.
The symptoms are real... And Toyota needs to address this increasing downward spiral in it's quality.
You can give them a "bravo" all you want... but it does not negate the quality issues confronting them.
TagMan
At least they aren't in denial. Contrast Toyota's attitude to MB's. When MB used to fare poorly in the JDP IQS (and still does fare poorly in the JDP VDS) we would here from their management that it was because the surveys reflect American tastes. Funny, those very same surveys often make other German brands like Porsche look pretty good. How can MB blame American tastes and still keep a straight face?
TagMan
If Lexus is in a downward spiral then it looks like Porsche has hit rock bottom....and started digging!!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I beg to differ. Your English is just fine.
Thanks for the interesting review summary.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
To me the manufacture issues a recall is a good thing because that means they are willing to stand behind their products and I get to fix my car for free.
What I do have problem with is manufactures not willing to stand behind their worranties or simply just not honoring it. The worst offenders of this type of action are the domestics and I don't think any of the luxury makers here in our discussion has a reputation of doing so (I am kind of skeptical about Caddy though).
As for quality I think even after the GS fiasco Lexus is still the quality leader among the luxury brands (see JDP). I have do doubt in my mind that this trend will continue to be so despite this most recent Lexus recall. However, Lexus' lead has been shrinking year after year and that means other manufactures are catching up, which is a very good thing for us consumers.
As for the record, I have never used quality as a factor in my support to Lexus. I think it is stupid to buy cars simply on quality especially now a day because the margin is just too small for that to be a factor IMO. I buy Lexus because I like their styling the best, love the powertrain and the dealership experience. I will also continue to follow my heart than brain in my future car buying opportunities, if there will be a 3-series that catches my heart like the IS350 did almost 2 years ago, don't be surprised to see me in one.
If you read the recall statement issued by Lexus there has only been one (1) case due to the failure. I have to commend Lexus' quick action of not waiting for more cases to show up or giving excuses like "It's just an individual case". Their willingness to stand behind the products should be applauded and not trashed on, this is also the kind of action that other manufactures should learn from and follow.
So yes, bravo Lexus.
Yes. I was one of the posters who foresaw this eventually coming to fruition with TM. The signs were there to be seen for anyone who wanted to look. That's why I called for a short on TM stock last year.
Any discouraged prospective Lexus buyers in Florida who want to make a switch to a great vehicle that you can actually rely on, I will be happy to supply directions to any/every BMW dealer in the state.
Glad to help!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
And THAT, gentlemen, is the point of distinction that seperates Toyota/Lexus from the rest.
The one major feather in Toyota/Lexus' cap has been their reliability... tremendous reliability, in fact. To see that becoming increasingly compromised is significant.
If Porsche suddenly had cars that were deteriorating in PERFORMANCE, than THAT would be a problem for Porsche.
Am I making my point clearer? If not, I can try to re-word it as many times as necessary.
It is absolutely significant that we have been reading more and more about the quality woes at TMC. They are aware of it, and have given interviews and have been quoted regarding it. so... let's not pretend it's just another sunny day at TMC.
They have an issue here, and they have admitted it themselves, and I do believe that they are making attempts at addressing it. But, as they grow so quickly, it is not an easy issue to wrestle down... as quality control is inherently threatened when growth is extremely rapid.
I hope they get it under control and raise the bar even further than they once had it... but that is to be seen.
TagMan
But to it's credit, for the forseeable future, Lexus should retain the title of having the best reliability going. But w/ Audi, BMW, and MB cleaning up appearances without so much as blip on the radar recently and Infiniti and Porsche ever-present flawless records(early build Cayennes and QX56's no longer count), the gap will for sure shrink faster than ever. As witnessed by Lexus/Toyota's old standby CR, even the domestics are in the top 10. Cadillac has some of the most loyal customers and I'm sure they're not lying through their teeth about how well their DTS' have held up.
If I haven't said it once, I've said it a thousand times: You can not nor will you ever become that big of a company without first suffering some form of reliability/quality crunch. If anyone disagrees with this should definitely take economics again in college.
Lexus, case and point: The gen-2 GS was a paragon of quality and reliability. That model ran from '98-'04(Seven great years for the model). This newest model has been on the market for a short 3 years and according to reasearch, is way worse than any model since the inception of '93. If this isn't a problem, then I don't know what is.
1. Porsche has the performance so reliability/quality is not a big factor.
2. Without reliability/quality Lexus has nothing left.
However, let ME make myself clear as well:
1. Porsche, BMW or any sports oriented brand can't hide behind the "performance curtain" if they are competing in the same segment as the rest.
2. I don't buy Lexus based on its reliability/quality reputation, I simply prefer its style, powertrain and service.
3. Until Lexus scores lower than Porsche, BMW, MB, Acura, Caddy and Infiniti, it is still the leader in the segment.
Am I making my point clear? If not, I can try to re-word it as many times as necessary. :P
In fact there are many free test reports on autobild.de that worth having a look at.
I just saw a previous test with the S, 7 and A8 Diesel battling against each other and there were much more details about their specific behaviour.
http://www.autobild.de/artikel/Themen-Testberichte-Diesel-ganz-oben_58937.html
but regrefully no time to translate this one.
It is clear that the Benz makes a clear case in Engine refinement and overall consistency. good to see them back to the business
They also announced the Q7 V12 TDI. 500 HP and 1000 NM (700 lb/f) with 21mpg. Beginning 2008 in Germany.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
It appears I'm not getting through. I've already acknowledged the leadership position of TMC in the reliability arena... I don't need to be reminded on that point... as I posted it myself.
I never posted that without reliability,Lexus has nothing left, as you suggested.
I AM saying, however, that TMC represents the pinnacle regarding reliability, and as that starts to faulter, then their most powerful playing card loses its edge. That is a significant issue, and there is no way to spin it as if it is not.
The Porsche analogy was ridiculous, and I pointed our why. Performance is the Porsche ace-in-the-hand, not reliability, and if their performance were to faulter, then there would be the same kind of significance to address.
Any time a marque's most powerful playing card faulters, it becomes extremely significant... but I guess that's only IMHO.... as I see that some don't agree.
It's an absolute riot that the recent news regarding Toyota's quality is clear and that there is a declining quality at TMC that even TMC acknowledges... yet on this board, there are a couple of posters that pretend it doesn't mean anything... geez.
I'm glad you bought Lexus for style, powertrain, and service... because, as it is starting to look... service will become more necessary and more frequent... :P back at ya'
TagMan
Keep the posts coming! I'm enjoying them.
TagMan
OK. Now just where is that authority that measures and ranks performance among all vehicles? Looks like you have a bogus and unprovable argument.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Please tell us.
TagMan
I think most of us do recognize that the Lexus quality is declining recently, however, the difference is that some of us don't make it a big deal like the others. It is not the end of the world for Lexus like some has suggested and the most recent recall is a good example of that Lexus is definitely on the point and dedicated not to let it falter anymore.
Some look at the recall as another hit for Lexus, some others (like me) think this is a positive notion from Lexus. See the difference?
To be honest, I never think reliability/quality is Lexus' most powerful playing card, IMO, Lexus' aces are dealership/service experience and its value compare to the German luxury brands. Like I said before, the reliability/quality margin now a day is just so close so it is pointless in my mind to account that into the purchasing decision. I can't speak for every Lexus owner but here I am speaking for myself.
Maybe you don't mean that Lexus has nothing left without reliability/quality but that's what I got from your previous post and many posts before that.
Like I said, I don't mind recalls, as long as Lexus do honor its warranty I really don't mind to get my Saturday morning breakfast occasionally at my local Lexus dealership.
Exclusiveness, brand appeal and prestige factor.
How many Porsches are sold in auto tranny form vs. manual?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
TM
BTW, Since you challenge the notion that Porsche is known for performance, there was a recent article in one of the rags that was quite extensive... and it was a quest to find the best overall performing car, and somehow I recall it was ultimately a Porsche... the GT2, I believe, but again, I'm working from memory here. I'm sure some else here might remember.
But, IMHO, performance is what Porsche is about...
I'm not about to get into a ping pong debate with you if you disagree with that. You are welcome to think what you want about Porsche. I can't help but suspect that you brought Porsche into the picture, knowing that I own one... making this a more personal argument than one about the cars themselves. Afterall, this was originally about TMC quality/reliability, wasn't it?
Anyway, I've been down this road with you in the past. I'm signing out for a while.
BTW, it's almost luchtime here in sunny California, and it just so happens I drove the Carrera S to work today. Think I'll go out and find myself a bite to eat on the OTHER side of town, just so I can have a bit more fun in my performance vehicle. :shades:
TagMan
Enjoy your lunch, hopefully you won't be stuck in traffic with your stick 911S.
To me the manufacture issues a recall is a good thing because that means they are willing to stand behind their products and I get to fix my car for free.
What I do have problem with is manufactures not willing to stand behind their worranties or simply just not honoring it. The worst offenders of this type of action are the domestics and I don't think any of the luxury makers here in our discussion has a reputation of doing so (I am kind of skeptical about Caddy though).
Me too. I am actually hoping that my new IS is part of this recall, just so than I can see first hand how Lexus handles it. I've heard many good things about how Lexus take cares of the customers involved in recall. Also, this would be the first unscheduled service with my 3 Lexus cars.
Same here.
Although my IS is also a 2006 but apparently this recall only covers the GS/IS that was built before 01/06 so mine is not part of the campaign. However, I will confirm with my service rep next time I am in for oil change though.
When a manufacturer starts to make and increasing number of recalls, however, it means something. I believe that everyone here on this forum should know what it means when the number of recalls increases... particularly from a company well-known for its quality and reliability.
TagMan
I would also have to say that performance is definitely the #1 reason for buying a Porsche with the other things listed as secondary. My opinion.
-Moo
AUTO RECALLS - Car Stats ALL MANUFACTURERS: 1990-2008 model cars:
166 ACURA Recalls
251 AUDI Recalls
630 BMW Recalls
88 LEXUS Recalls
103 INFINITI Recalls
248 MERCEDES-BENZ Recalls
Source: Auto Recalls