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I agree. Some may buy a Lexus for the dealer service, but I think for a lot of Lexus buyers, reliability is a top priority. It was for me when I bought an LS in '96, and again back in '01. My Lexus dealer has been pretty good, but I don't want to have to send the car there if I don't have to. The new GS isn't just by far the worst GS ever in terms of quality, its the worst Lexus ever, period.
The new GS isn't exactly a looker, and its near the bottom of the class in terms of comfort and performance. If it's not reliable, what good is it? The Infiniti M is comfortable, has awesome performance, and walks all over the GS in terms of quality. Thats a big problem for Lexus. Audi and BMW don't seem to be having any trouble with their AWD systems, and yet Lexus (and Toyota) can't get theirs to work. What's going on here?
489 TOYOTA/LEXUS Recalls
105 PORSCHE Recalls
630 BMW Recalls?
TagMan
Second, here is the challenge, do you actually know what are the 3 reasons that CR dropped the GS from number 1 to 5 in the recommended list? I'll give you a hint, it has nothing to do with the AWD system or the powertrain.
Last but not least, what's wrong with Toyota/Lexus' AWD system? It works fine on all the Toyota/Lexus SUV/CUVs and the IS. :confuse:
Like I said, maybe that's the case 10 years ago but now a day buying cars (especially luxury cars) solely on reliability/quality alone is stupid IMO. The gap between manufactures is just too small to make a major difference. The funny thing is that I don't see other luxury brands with their ever increasing reliability/quality rating challenging Lexus' number one selling title anytime soon.
Toyota is Toyota and Lexus is Lexus. Should I add Mini, Rolls Royce into BMW's number, Doge, Chrysler into MB's number and VW into Audi's number as well?
You are better than that Tagman. I expect something like this from maybe other forum members but certainly not from you. This is a luxury brand forum last I checked.
Again, here are the stats:
166 ACURA Recalls
251 AUDI Recalls
630 BMW Recalls
88 LEXUS Recalls
103 INFINITI Recalls
248 MERCEDES-BENZ Recalls
Thanks for the link, Lou.
TagMan
Want to take a wild guess on how many recalls are there for the current gen GS (without cheating of course)?
Or do they mean 630Ci BMW recalls since 1990?
The real question here is relevance. A 1990 or 91 or 93 recall is highly irrelevant for today's BMW owners. While a 06 and 07 Lexus recall is very relevant for today's Lexus owners.
In otherwords 630 BMW recalls may be highly irrelevant while 88 Lexus recalls maybe highly relevant.
The higher the number the better...
3.74 ACURA Models
3.50 AM GENERAL Models
3.39 AUDI Models
3.69 BMW Models
3.16 BUICK Models
3.27 CADILLAC Models
3.21 CHEVROLET Models
3.12 CHRYSLER Models
2.57 DAEWOO Models
n/a DAIHATSU Models
2.50 Demo Models
3.05 DODGE Models
3.04 EAGLE Models
4.00 FERRARI Models
3.10 FORD Models
3.27 GEO Models
3.25 GMC Models
3.61 HONDA Models
3.62 HUMMER Models
3.16 HYUNDAI Models
3.68 INFINITI Models
2.94 ISUZU Models
3.30 JAGUAR Models
3.27 JEEP Models
2.75 KIA Models
n/a LAMBORGHINI Models
2.98 LAND ROVER Models
3.86 LEXUS Models
3.34 LINCOLN Models
3.33 MAZDA Models
3.28 MERCEDES-BENZ Models
3.07 MERCURY Models
n/a MERKUR Models
3.63 MINI Models
3.14 MITSUBISHI Models
3.36 NISSAN Models
2.92 OLDSMOBILE Models
n/a PEUGEOT Models
2.77 PLYMOUTH Models
3.06 PONTIAC Models
3.98 PORSCHE Models
n/a ROLLS ROYCE Models
3.25 SAAB Models
2.94 SATURN Models
3.50 SUBARU Models
2.98 SUZUKI Models
3.66 TOYOTA Models
2.97 VOLKSWAGEN Models
n/a VOLKSWAGON Models
3.25 VOLVO Models
link title
Hey, here's an interesting comparison...
3.98 Porsche
3.86 Lexus
:shades:
TagMan
In otherwords 630 BMW recalls may be highly irrelevant while 88 Lexus recalls maybe highly relevant.
Absolutely true!... which goes to show the nature of statistics, particularly those that are incomplete.
Good post. (fair and balanced)
TagMan
your German is Wunderbar..(Dein Deutsch ist sehr gut)
Thanks for your efforts in translating these interesting articles.
I am fairly balanced especially with regards to BMW. And so is Howard.
I don't know who gets all these recall notices. Do you? :shades:
You don't think it's my docile Doberman lying there at the foot of the gate to Chateau Hpowders that may be scaring away the recall notice server? :shades:
Well, one simple "HALT, FRITZ!!!" and he simply lies there on his belly.
Just one emissions adjustment for my BMW 335i. Whoopey Doo.
Unless you can prove that most of the 88 Lexus recalls are coming from recent years then I think your highly irrelevant or relevant comment is just completely BS.
What's really relevant here is that:
BMW has 630 recalls vs. Lexus' 88 from 1990 to 2008 MY.
That's funny.
It reminds me of a situation here at home. These two "elderly" gents were golfing out here one day this last summer. The one guy had terrible eyesight, and asked the other to keep a close eye on where his ball landed, and then he proceeded to make a great drive. He asked his fellow golfer if he saw where it went, and he replied that he did, and then proceeded to make a great drive as well.
They got in the golf cart and proceeded down the path. The second guy got out of the cart and was wandering around looking for the balls. The first elderly guy said, "I thought you saw where they went?". The second elderly guy replied, "I did see where they went!... I just can't 'recall'."
OK... forgive me... I couldn't resist an "elderly" golf joke.
TagMan
I am that confident in all of their vehicles' driveability and perfect fitability.
Funny story! Thanks for "recalling" my words before edit.
BMW has 630 recalls vs. Lexus' 88 from 1990 to 2008 MY.
Relevant to whom? A Historian?
Those stats you had provided is good history but pretty useless for someone who wants to learn anything about current BMW or Lexus models.
So, that means that the 'trend" is the critical piece of information here. Is Toyota/Lexus going through an increase in quality issues, as they themselves have stated, attributed to their rapid growth? There should be an increase in actual service calls at the dealership, or the possibility of a statistical correlation to the number of recalls.
You need to narrow down that number on a year-to-year basis, or even as far as a model-by-model, year-to-year basis, in order to properly interpret that data. And even after THAT, it may not reflect the actual nature of the situation, due to the number of non-recalled service-related issues that are on the rise, according to Toyota itself... and we don't have that statistical information here either.
TagMan
How come BMW left me out of the recalls? Haven't I been a loyal customer since 1993? What am I doing wrong? :shades:
I need the Mrs. to mix me up some potent rum cake to make me forget the misery of being ignored on the 600+ recalls.
BMW hasn't heard the end of this!
Let me teach you something...
If you want to learn about current BMW and Lexus models go back to that link, click on Lexus or BMW then it'll tell you how many recalls are from which model.
I don't feel like to perform the public service of breaking down the number but I at least provided the link. It's be much more meaningful if you are willing to breakdown the number rather than post speculations like the "irrelevant vs relevant" comment since seems to me you are really into this topic.
The website shows that the IS has 2 recalls and I didn't get any of those.
However, I know better than to argue against cold hard stats.
I don't see people dying in Iraq everyday but that doesn't mean that I should deny the truth that people are dying over there every *beep* single day.
I can't possible be that lucky.
Whose been getting those notices. :confuse:
Every one who has received a BMW recall notice within the last 20 years, please post about it.
Of course, if the holy "STATS" say there are all those recalls, I must keep my mouth shut as my placid real-life BMW experience obviously can't have any relevance when up against those big bad "STATS"!!
If you want to learn about current BMW and Lexus models go back to that link, click on Lexus or BMW then it'll tell you how many recalls are from which model.
I don't feel like to perform the public service of breaking down the number but I at least provided the link.
A few more years of excellent A6s, and lousy GSes, and see what happens. I'd be willing to put up with some issues from a Maserati or Jag, because hey its a Maserati, or Jag. Gorgeous cars that are fantastic to drive. Lexus vehicles aren't gorgeous, and they certainly aren't fantastic to drive. I'm buying a car, not a dealer. I don't want to see the dealer, no matter how nice they are, one minute more than I have to. I was willing to trade some performance and handling for legendary Lexus quality. If they can't even manage to make boring cars that at least work properly, good bye Lexus.
Wake me up when that happens...
The funny thing about the GS is that despite it being one of the worst seller in Lexus' lineup the overall Lexus sales is still increasing year after year.
More amazingly, this is done with an aging SUV lineup!! Imaging with the brand new RX (Lexus' best seller) next year.
Bravo Lexus.
As they stand now, they only suggest a historical piece of information. They do not show us the current situation. They are a different and seperate discussion than the original discussion.
The ORIGINAL discussion was about the nature of TMC's issue with regards to declining quality/reliability, as was suggested by the recent recall.
The response I made was a reminder that this was pointed out before, and that the highly accelerated growth rate of TMC has been the primary culprit, as they themselves have admitted to.
I believe the conversation has taken too many twists and turns to be relevant to the original intentions any more. Heck, at one point, I had to defend that Porsche is known for performance!!
But, it is extremely nice to learn from that website, that the Consumer Rating for Porsche is higher than Lexus, and, in fact, EVERY other manufacturer except for Ferrari. :shades:
TagMan
Wake me up when that happens...
Well, as you've been saying it doesn't make sense to buy based on reliability anymore, and my next purchase isn't going to be a Lexus. I'll take fun over boring any day of the week if reliability isn't going to be an issue. If I could get an A8 4.2TDi from the local Audi shop, I'd probably buy one tomorrow. That brings the number of Lexus vehicles at our house down to... zero. Jaudiguy? I don't know what to call myself these days. :sick:
Great car!!!!!!!!
Be patient. Something terrific with a diesel powertrain will eventually show up.
TagMan
If the A8 4.2TDi sets your heart on fire then by all means go for it. Don't make the same mistake like 2001gs430 made with his short-lived 328i. Buying a car for ourselves is a passionate thing so don't let your over thinking brain clouds you. You can't go wrong with any of the luxury brands these days and yes that includes Audi. :surprise:
No kidding.
It's also delighted to see that Lexus is rated higher by the consumers than BMW, Audi, MB, Acura and Infiniti. In other words, it is ranked higher than all other mainstream luxury brands.
Bravo Lexus. :shades:
?
Excuse me, but Bravo Porsche!!
Porsche. There Is No Substitute
TagMan
Next, we'll hear about the pursuit of perfection. (wouldn't that be kind of like the "soon-to-be" Ultimate Driving Machine?) At least they realize they are not perfect (and lately are further from it than ever).
BTW, what happened to the supposed new BMW slogan "The company with ideas"?, or "A company of ideas", or whatever that new slogan was supposed to be? Did someone come to their senses and keep "the ultimate driving machine?"
TM
BMW made a mistake... they recognized it quickly and corrected it.
I believe that you, TM, as an ad. man can appreciate "The Ultimate Driving Machine" for what it is: one of the great slogans in ad. history... simply because unlike so many others...it is not only memorable, but also, quite close to the truth.
Sure beats, " Chesterfields... made from healthy, toasted tobacco." as I recall. :shades:
I think it should be thumbs down, MB and Audi!
Bravo Lexus!!
Double Bravo Porsche!!!!
I'll take that, syswei, but only for fun... because, as I look at all of this... what the heck are we basing any of this on anyway? A bunch of weird statistics?
When we get back to the beginning of the day's discussion... does it take an act of God for everyone here to agree that there might be some slipping quality lately at TMC?... mostly attributable to rapid growth.
Can we accept that?... without throwing out the baby with the bathwater? I mean Lexus hasn't lost their reputation over this. On the other hand, should we just pretend it's not happening?
Toyota themselves has admitted quality issues in interviews that we have all read.
So, where's the fair and balanced truth here today?
Does it make some feel better to agree that TMC quality has slipped, but only in the same sentence that says MB, BMW, and Audi suck? What does one have to do with the other?
Man, this is a competitive group at times. (But it sure is a fun forum, I'll give you that.)
TagMan
That said, is it possible to dispense with the "fair and balanced"
sarcasmcomments? Please? :shades:Fans of certain brands (including Japanese brands) seem to rejoice in anything that makes another brand look bad.
It's funny that when certain German brands sometimes look bad in reliability stats, we're told it doesn't matter, either because all cars are "reliable enough" and more reliable than the most reliable cars of 20 years ago, or because "fun" is all that matters, and trumps a few trips to the service department at the dealership. But then, when Toyota/Lexus has some quality issues, oh how that matters so so much, and Toyota is "in trouble" because of issues that didn't matter when applied to German brands.
I think Pat is right. The gloating and defensiveness are part of the problem.
And I think it would be honest of me to admit that I am guilty at times of both. I can pull back on it, certainly, but don't expect me to stop my little jokes from time to time, like the video I posted to hpowders about the Dinan download.
Anyway, all good stuff... and whoever else wants to confess... be my guest. I feel a thousand pounds lighter.
TagMan
I, for one, never see myself as a "fair and balanced" person, I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to realize that I am biased toward Japanese. However, when houdini first mentioned the phrase "fair and balanced" several weeks ago it was meant to be maintaining the fair and balanced of the board, not each person. I think we can all agree that it could be quiet boring sometimes when everyone is agreeing on everything. If that's the case I might as well just go to Bimmerfest or Club Lexus. Diversity is the reason I come to this board and being as an active member I'll fight hard to keep it that way.
Now back to luxury cars:
I can understand why some people make the reliability/quality a big issue for Lexus but not so much for the Germans. It's all because those people came in with one assumption: Lexus will be nothing with reliability/quality. I personally totally disagree with that concept and I think Lexus has a lot going for it besides that. It is not the performance brand of this bunch but one can't deny that nobody "gets" Americans better than Lexus. The interesting thing is that since Lexus has already established its reputation as the "comfort" leader of the group it is now free to further discover that performance side. Once Lexus has figured out what's the best balance between comfort, luxury and performance it'll be even a greater force to be reckoned with.
If I am a betting man, I am definitely not betting against Lexus.
"Back in the day" the (imaginary) scale for the top ten was more likely to be 110 for #1 and 70 for #10, assuming the same objective scale that gave today's #1 a 234.
Everyone bugles to a fare-thee-well about tiny marginal stuff, since that's all there is left to discuss. Tell me about transmission failures, engine fires, brakes that don't work or other things that leave the car beside the road, dead.
Don't let's get all wrapped around the axle when a conscientious manufacturer detects a defect & makes a good-faith effort to correct it in fielded units. I've had a couple of recalls to deal with over the past 20 years & both fell into the category of idiot-proofing, not fixing a bona-fide safety or functional issue.
Most of our best discussions/debates involve passion and along with that comes a bit of gloating and defensiveness from many of us as we defend our proud and loyal positions. I'll take that over mild-mannered sterility any day. When it threatens to go overboard, we have a monitor to remind us. I'm okay with the program. Nothing personal.
I actually feel 6 pounds lighter! Whoops! I forgot. I took my wallet out of my pocket.
We can all do better while still keeping the forum a little (maybe more than a little) edgy. I think everyone will agree that we have a barrel of laughs here and occasionally even learn something.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
If the A8 4.2TDi sets your heart on fire then by all means go for it. Don't make the same mistake like 2001gs430 made with his short-lived 328i.
I think it would cause confusion, I'll still be LG, even if there's no "L" in the driveway.
Mercedes owner: "Well, its had some problems, but it's just so solid on the highway, nothing else drives like this thing at 80mph, it feels like a bank vault, so I can put up with it."
Lexus owner: "Well, its had some problems, but..." how do you finish that sentence? How do you explain away an unreliable Lexus? What is the quality about the car that makes it worth it? And don't say dealer service.
Your problem is that you have driven the LS for so long you are just wanting a change. I can understand that. Once you obtain your Audi dream car my bet is you will be longing for your LS in a short while. We'll see. But I would wait a while on that name change.
Also I am tired of hearing about reliability. Quality fits better for Lexus.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460