Luxury Lounge

dewey

I hear you and I would be miffed too. My BMW 335i has certain issues but not yet enough for me to hate BMW for life. My older BMW 3 series model was bullet proof in terms of reliability.

Having said that your Lexus may be bulletproof but that may not be the general case. You want proof? Why not look at the Edmunds Lexus LS460 forum and you will read about a lot of disgruntled Lexus owners.

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0feb55/834

dewey

The mystery is that most of these unreliable Japanese and MB US manufactured vehicles are SUVs or trucks. The Tundra, the ML and GL, the Infiniti QX and that humungous beast of a Nissan SUV(forgot the name of it) and the Titan.

IMHO the very best trucks and SUVs are Amercian marques made in the USA!

As far as I know a US manufactured Japanese sedan is as bulletproof as a Japanese made one. I haven't heard many complaints about North American made Camrys and Accords.

lexusguy

Is a bmw M steering available in a non M class?

In cases where the M model uses hydraulic steering and the standard models use electric, you can't special order hydraulic steering instead. I don't know of any "M steering" option on any of the regular sport packages.

dewey

Personally, I am disappointed, although not that surprised, to see so many VW models in the "worst" category.

Doesn't bother me one bit at all. A VW Jetta BlueDiesel wagon with better real world mileage than a Prius sounds far more enticing than a Prius despite its better reliability.

Was your VW GTI such a horror story ?

esf

Perhaps VW's confirmed US plant will turn things around.

They frustrate me. Volkswagen makes such great cars, but most of them are just not worth buying because they're bought as A-to-B transport anyway, and sometimes they can't provide that.

'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet

esf

http://news.hspn.com/articles/280/1/BMW-Biturbo-Petrol-Inline-Six-Engine-In-Dept- h/Page1.html

Oh, you didn't understand.

BMWs do not have V6s. They have inline (or straight) six-cylinder engines.

'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet

tmjdds

Long:
After driving the 2004 745Li lemon for 2 years, BMW could not stop the iDrive problems along with many other issues. They bought the car back and offered to put me in a new one. I refused because of the experience I had with the 7. I was ready to go back to Lexus. Then BMW offered me a 5 series at a reduced lease payment and stated that the 5 series did not have problems wih the iDrive like the 7. I agreed. 1700 miles after driving the 5 series, the entire iDrive system went down and needed replacing. I advised the dealership (MotorWerks of Barrington) that if I have problems again, I am bringing it back and just walking away. Sure enough, at 9000 miles, the headlights were turning off while driving at night and the iDrive knob was spinning like a gyroscope...ON IT"S OWN! I took it in and left it. Turned out that a bottle of water had spilled in the trunk. The water was at the bottom of the trunk...along with the control module for the iDrive! I let them fix it and continued to drive it.
My reason for posting was not motivated from just the car problems. It is how the buy back was handled. After leasing the 5 series, I noticed that they did not require a security deposit. I waited for my $1150 deposit from my 7 series but did not get it. I called BMW F.S. and they advised me that they see that I had a security deposit and that they would send it to me. Waited some more...nothing. Called again and then I was told that the dealer used the funds to pay off the 7 series. They advised me to call the dealer. After working my way up to the general manager, I was continually referred back to F.S. and N.A. After months of back and forth fingerpointing, I was forced to do something I have never done before...write a letter to Tom Purvis...the CEO of BMW N.A.
I received a call from corporate and after looking into the situation, they advised me that they used my security deposit to lessen the financial blow that they were taking for buying back my 7. I advised them that I gave them $1150 to protect them against any damage that the vehicle may have when I return it...not to help them with their financial burden from faulty vehicles. They said that they cannot give me my deposit back but they can give me coupons to buy accessories like hats and shirts. It took everything I had at that moment to keep the words "F...Y.." from flying out of my mouth. I was speaking to a lady and I know that she was just telling me what she had been cleared to say.
Like I said BMW=Big Money Wasted...$1150 to be exact! :mad:

lexusguy

The mystery is that most of these unreliable Japanese and MB US manufactured vehicles are SUVs or trucks.

I think its a plant specific issue, and the fact that the bad plants make trucks is a coincidence. If M-B was building S-classes in Tuscaloosa, those would probably suck as well.

IMHO the very best trucks and SUVs are Amercian marques made in the USA!

I don't know that I'd go that far. The Lambda clones and even the GMT900s are definitely world class products, but GM doesn't have much else. The X5s that are coming out of Spartanburg seem to be OK quality wise, and they beat the pants off the SRX and Lincoln's MKX. Don't even get me started on Chrysler.

As far as I know a US manufactured Japanese sedan is as bulletproof as a Japanese made one. I haven't heard many complaints about North American made Camrys and Accords.

Generally that seems to be the case. Subaru's Lafayette plant is producing excellent cars. There's also no guarantee anymore that a car built in Japan is automatically going to be bulletproof. The Mazda CX-7 and Lexus GS350 AWD come from Hiroshima and Tahara Japan, and quality on those has been less than stellar.

tagman

Was your VW GTI such a horror story ?

Well, in fairness, I don't think I owned it long enough to really know. But, for the few thousand miles that I put on it, it was absolutely perfect.

TM

tagman

Their lineup is improving, however, even if not their reliability. From what I understand, VW will have at least six new models within the next couple of model years.

Their 2.0 L turbocharged FSI engine with DSG and launch control is a very potent combination. I experienced it for a while on the GTI.

The only performance complaint I have with that combination is during automatic Sport mode downshifting... the engine RPMs want to hang a little too long and the DSG is sensitive enough to those hanging RPMs to cause the vehicle to surge as it downshifts to each consecutive lower gear. It was noticeable enough to be a valid criticism. Perhaps it's related to emissions control, whereby the combustion has to be completed, but I suspect that it could be tweaked and corrected with some minor ECU adjustments.

TM

jlbl

Let me add to LG's answer that over here the M steering is available as an option, for instance, in all models of the 3-Series. European standard and optional equipments can be down loaded from the official BMW website ("Catalogue", within each Series particular page).

Regards,
Jose

tagman

Just to be clear, is there any chance you were originally asking if the M steering WHEEL was available? If THAT was the case, then yes.

TM

dewey

I received a call from corporate and after looking into the situation, they advised me that they used my security deposit to lessen the financial blow that they were taking for buying back my 7. I advised them that I gave them $1150 to protect them against any damage that the vehicle may have when I return it...not to help them with their financial burden from faulty vehicles

If I am not mistaken it sounds like you're more disappointed with the services you got from BMW than with the cars themselves. An amount of $1150 for such a luxury car may sounds like a non-issue but in fact it is a humungous issue by the shabby way you were treated.

Reminds me of what I read in a book called Freakonomics. Based on a study incompetent doctors with great personality skills had less litigation suits than competent doctors with lousy personality skills.

houdini1

OK, I get the picture now. I definitely feel that they owe you your security deposit back, and if necessary, I would take them to small claims court. I know this would be a pain but there is a principle involved here.

I also think your reasoning is flawless as to how a security deposit should be used and that is the reasoning I would use in small claims court.

Also there is a forum here at Edmund's called "Lemon Law Questions" or something close to that. You should post this info there. Also there is much good info
to be had there just for your general information.

You're right, they're wrong. Make 'em pay and apologize!! Good luck!

dewey

But, for the few thousand miles that I put on it, it was absolutely perfect.

Uhhhh (sigh of big relief) !!

Now I can buy a VW with less anxiety. At least for the first few thousand miles.

tagman

Doesn't seem significant, but I wonder. Someone once told me that most problems occur within the first few thousand miles anyway. I wonder if there is data to tell us if that is true or not.

TM

louiswei

Another iDrive horror story on top of the not-so-stellar BMW customer service.

That's a sure way to lose a customer for a very very long time...

louiswei

Last month, Business Week published a story detailing Lexus’ lack of success in Japan when compared to its German competitors. As a respected magazine, it was easy to take their findings at face value, but by using some actual numbers obtained from the Japanese Automotive Dealers Association, the story looks to have been sensationalized slightly.

First off, here’s the figures for Mercedes, BMW, Audi & Lexus for 2007 and the beginning of 2008 (January and February numbers):

2008 2007
Lexus 5,552 34,803
Mercedes 5,560 46,811
BMW 4,568 47,103
Audi 1,840 15,224

Lexus was clearly outsold in 2007, however, Mercedes & BMW both boast a substantial advantage in one primary category: model types. Mercedes sells nineteen different models in Japan, a number that doesn’t take into account the different variations on each model (S450, S550, S600, etc.). BMW has a lot less at nine models, yet this still eclipses Lexus grand selection of four: the LS, GS, SC and IS. Also, it’s worth noting that Lexus doesn’t offer a single SUV in Japan.

But still, there’s no denying that Lexus was outsold by both BMW & Mercedes in 2007, by as much as 12,400, those are the numbers plain and simple.

However, looking at the 2008 numbers, where Lexus is only 8 cars behind Mercedes and close to 1,000 up on BMW, it’s hard to see how the car company isn’t improving in Japan. Time will tell if these numbers continue, but it’s hardly the doom and gloom painted by Business Week.

Source: The Passionate Pursuit

What have we learned here? Don't believe everything that you read and that's including stuffs on the internet and also PRINTING PUBLICATIONS!!

jlbl

One never knows where from and when an idiot is coming over. This is a brief of videos filmed from the cabin of a big rig. Though the speak is in Spanish, I believe the movie explains all by itself.

link title

:confuse: :mad:

Regards,
Jose

reality2

Peublo, Mexico. VW scores very well in European based reliability surveys and this seems to cause a disconnect between Wolfsburg and Auburn Hills (or is it Virginia now). Only my guess. Also, I think VW dealers may have a role to play in these low reliability ratings since a "ticked" off customer will magnify the issue more than it really is. I owned a 98 Jetta and 99 Passat and both were very good in reliability. The dealer, well no as much.

bmlexus

Just to be clear, is there any chance you were originally asking if the M steering WHEEL was available? If THAT was the case, then yes.

Yea fortunately thats what I was asking and it good to know its available

Did u get the M steering wheel in your 135i?

esf

I've driven my A3 for 22,000 miles. The only issue I've experienced is cold-start; I have to try three times at most to turn it on. That's hardly serious, because it always turns on.

'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet

bmlexus

In cases where the M model uses hydraulic steering and the standard models use electric, you can't special order hydraulic steering instead. I don't know of any "M steering" option on any of the regular sport packages

Well this is new to me! :confuse:

How different is hydraulic to electric steering could u explain

scwmcan

From what I recall the good reliability in europe is no longer the case (or wasn't a few years ago, may have been corrected by now) and was causing sales of VW's in germany to drop, this resulted in a statement that VW would be concentrating on quality again (not assembly quality, I don't think anyone would fault them for that). I do think this showed up later than the problems in North America though.
Scott

bmlexus

Oh, you didn't understand.

BMWs do not have V6s. They have inline (or straight) six-cylinder engines.

Okay well then I'll just say that the 1 I saw was The BMW X6 xDrive35i will be powered by a 3.0L inline 6-cylinder engine that produces 300 horsepower and 300 lb-ft of torque

tagman

No... Not necessary in this case. The std. sport steering wheel is nearly identical to the M steering wheel in shape, but includes two small pieces of aluminum trim.

The "active steering" option is contraversial. I didn't want it, and most do not want it.

In the future I will post a comprehensive report on this car. I will include the negatives as well as the positives.

TM

lexusguy

Most car makers have been moving to completely electric steering systems recently because they are slightly more fuel efficient, and they are cheaper and easier to build. The M guys prefer the old hydraulic pump system though because of better road feel, so the Z4M has hydraulic steering while the regular ones get electric. I'm not sure what the M3 and M5 use.

tmjdds

Houdini...you are correct....When my BMWs are working properly, they are a blast to drive. Way more fun than the Lexus LS430 I had. But the frustration with getting the reoccuring problems solved and the constant battles with customer service make the BMW experience a big drag.

As far as taking them to court, I discussed with BMW the issue of my security deposit and where in the "Buy-back" paperwork did I sign off that I am releasing it to them. They advised me that the final number that the dealership was given as a payoff included the security deposit and I signed the paper that approved the payoff amount. I asked them, "How the hell am I suppose to know what the final payoff is? You (BMW F.A.) are the ones with that information!" They did not show a particular line item showing my security deposit...just a final payoff. So basically it's too bad for me according to their policies. Too bad I didn't notice that the payoff was $1150 less than what it was suppose to be. What jerks! So because of this, and I don't have time to mess around in courts, I am sharing my frustrations with others and I hope that this saves someone the headaches that I've been through. I also hope that the little trolls from BMW N.A. that visit these boards will see my post and decide to re-open this issue. They have contacted me before when I written in this forum.

BTW I am a dentist and a lot of my patients like to talk cars. I have swayed 3 potential BMW buyers away. They bought a Lexus LS600hL, Mercedes E class and an Infinity FX45. It's my way of tipping the scales of justice back in my direction. The $1150 that BMW is holding will end up costing them a whole lot more.

anthonyp

Sure doesn`t sound like you did your patients any favors...Tony

houdini1

I understand your aversion to going to court. I have never done it either...However, it doesn't matter what BMW says if the Judge disagrees or can see that they were pulling a fast one. It is his opinion that counts, not theirs. I certainly do not see any iron clad legal doctrine that says you lose automatically.

That said, I am sure you are busy and I can understand your position. But I sure would like to see you win this!!

dewey

I love my BMWs just like you do. I swayed a few people (family members, friends and clients) to buy BMWs and so far I did not get any death threats from them. :shades:

When I buy a car I focus on the car itself. Having a smiling obedient slave that caters to all my needs and requests from behind a service counter is not why I buy a car. BMW customer services are not the greatest in my particular case but they're also not that bad. IMO that's good enough.

dewey

What have we learned here? Don't believe everything that you read and that's including stuffs on the internet and also PRINTING PUBLICATIONS!!

Those numbers in no way contradicts what Businessweek is saying unless ofcourse you're suggesting that one month's sales numbers are of greatest importance. The Year to Date 08 numbers are more important than that single March 08 figure that you had pointed out. The month numbers may reflect a unusual event like a "LExus Cherry Blossom Red Bow March Sale". There are some months where BMW is almost tied with Lexus in terms of USA sales numbers (March 08 and February08) but that does not mean that BMW is close to being number one in USA. At least not yet.

The fact of the matter is that the Japanese favor German marques over Lexus and one single March figure does not change anything. Unless ofcourse 2008 April, May, June, July, August....figures reflect some sort of new trend.

dewey

Doesn't seem significant, but I wonder. Someone once told me that most problems occur within the first few thousand miles anyway.

Maybe?

In the continent where Jlbl lives there are Renaults, Fiats, Peugots, and a whole slew of brands that probably have a worse reliability record than VW. Despite that Europeans continue buying cars from these unreliable marques. Why? Despite VWs horrid decades old- unreliable reputation in North AMerica people continue buying VWs and used ones(VWs have among the very highest resale values in N. America). Why?

Reliability is nice! But the relativity of reliability has become narrower as time goes by. Toyotas and Lexus are becoming less reliable (refer to some of the forums here) while VWs as hard as it is to believe are becoming more reliable when compared to older models.

cdnpinhead

not usually what's in play.

Reliability is what happens at 50-150K miles and 3-10 years.

Assembly quality or design quality is what most people seem to talk about. There are legions of Edmunds posters who discuss the "reliability" of their 6-month-old blattmobile that has all of 5000 miles on it. Many of these people fill out the tedious Consumer Reports annual survey.

Infant failure is what happens early in the product life, and is what most people end up discussing. Reliability is what happens on the other end of the bell curve, and almost nobody talks about it -- has to do with 150-300K miles of service and 20-30 samples. Not likely.

Stuff that fails between those two has to do with crappy designs -- things that were meant to last 150-300K miles and went south at 20K. Cars that are developed over decades eliminate this stuff -- the weak points are fixed. Cars that introduce all kinds of "new & improved" things (think electronics in general, such as electric steering) are adding complexity and rolling the dice.

Are you feeling lucky?

jlbl

I'm not sure what the M3 … use.

M3 should use hydraulic steering, given that 335 (i or d) steering is hydraulic as well.

Regards,
Jose

tagman

Yeah... M3 should be hydraulic steering, but "Active Steering" does add a small electric motor coupled to the hydraulics, which I believe creates a speed-dependent variable ratio.

I think you are correct that your car uses hydraulic steering... And I believe mine does as well, although I haven't confirmed this.

There is a lot of info available that discusses Active Steering. It seems to be a contraversial feature that is not loved by all. I did not want it on my car, but I do wish the steering ratio was tighter at times. Too much steering wheel movement for my taste. (I am spoiled by my Porsche!)

TM

houdini1

Excellent post! But I would say that reliability stats should start at around 50,000 miles...and up. About the time the warranty expires.

Reliability really means great design, quality materials, and superior manufacturing techniques.

jlbl

I don't have Active Steering in the 335d. I am just happy with the hydraulic, though I found it much stiffer than that of my former 5-Series.

Regards,
José

tayl0rd

Apart from possibly the 7-series, I don't think any BMW has electric steering.

louiswei

The Year to Date 08 numbers are more important than that single March 08 figure that you had pointed out

Eh... Those are the January and February '08 figures, not the March '08.

There are some months where BMW is almost tied with Lexus in terms of USA sales numbers (March 08 and February08) but that does not mean that BMW is close to being number one in USA.

True, but that's not the case in Japan. For the first 2 months in 2008 Lexus is virtually tied with MB and almost 1000 units ahead of BMW. On that note I'll keep you updated when we pass the mid-year mark to see what kind of trend is going on over there at the land of rising sun.

dewey

The fact of the matter is that Lexus is considered a second rate brand or at least a glorified Toyota outside of USA and SOuth Korea ( in both countries where where slushy soft cars are favored). That perception is not going to change in a few months no matter how much we focus on one or two months of sales figures.

What is said about a Corolla below is equally applicable to most Lexuses (RX, ES, GS and even the new LS). Sales are a reflection of the consumer and certainly not the excellence of any car.

Corolla accounted for more than 370,000 sales last year, good enough to make it the third-best-selling car in the U.S., the butter to top-seller Camry's bread. I think this says more about the average American consumer than it does about Toyota: Apparently, the masses want a car fit for a zombie. And this is it. Clearly, Toyota is not about to mess with the formula, so the Corolla remains the vehicular manifestation of the company's vaunted production process, continuous improvement drawn out over a seemingly endless succession of boring vehicles.

Wall Street Journal

dewey

Active Steering is available in the BMW 335i as an option at least when I bought mine and if I am not mistaken they are available in other models as options.

It's an option not worth having. Thank God that you can still drive BMWs with hydraulic steering.

louiswei

RX, ES, GS and even the new LS

To be honest with you, if I am into one of those cars above (except the GS, Lexus totally blew it on that one but that's another story altogether...) I am probably either a back-seat buyer (LS) or a zombie (ES, RX and as well as the LS). Driving dynamics really isn't that important to those buyers.

The bottom line is that Lexus knows what people want and they offer it to them. It's only the matter of time for Lexus to take over the number one luxury selling spot in Japan just like they did in US, Korea and Taiwan.

Also, don't forget that MB and BMW have way more models to choose from than Lexus. Just imagine what'll be like if Lexus offer that many options... scary isn't it?

tagman

Sales are a reflection of the consumer and certainly not the excellence of any car.

Bingo. Bullseye. That is an excellent, perfectly-worded, factual statement... that should put to rest the manipulative use of sales figures, and any twisted meanings associated with them.

Everyone should write that down repeatedly on the chalk board in front of the entire class!

TM

circlew

I agree. As I strolled through the Toyota exhibits last week at the NYIAS, I could not help but feel uninspired by the offerings. Even Accura did not tweak my curiosity.

Actually, the Accord trumps Accura IMHO. I could not get near the GT-R exhibit.

Is Accura doomed??

It looks like Hyundai is poised to do good things and BMW and Merc have no worries if crowd enthusiasm has anything to say...mass enthusiasm is a direct reflection of desire but financial capability rules the day.

Regards,
OW

tagman

Is Accura doomed??

Probably not... But they may need to learn some tough lessons. Frankly, I kind of hope they do... I would like to see Acuras with higher quality of materials and better designs.

The MDX is a winner for them, but it's not enough to just have a successsful SUV.

...mass enthusiasm is a direct reflection of desire but financial capability rules the day.

as well as a reflection of curiousity, particularly at car shows.

TM

tmjdds

OK Houdini...I sent a complaint into the Illinois Attorney General's Office. We'll see what happens. It is a lot easier than going to court.

BTW I happen to have my attorney in the chair this morning and he said that I would probably not get much from the Attorney General and I will have to go to court like you suggested. I'll let you know what happens.

anthonyp

Hi Tag

Back when I had my Porsche--a targa- it didn`t have any power steering, and I swear I bet it was way way lighter than the present day Porsche....I remember I could push it fairly easily by hand, just to get it out of the way....The porsche way way back( turtle) was way lighter than my Porsche.....When Hpowders was posting he and I thought the cars were getting too heavy, with too many automatic devices.....I sort of like to adjust the heat with the little lever Porsche use to have...I guess it was just a vent off the air cooled engine...Simple radio is also missed...I couldn`t tell you how quickly it stopped, but I would guess seventy five feet from sixty...Probably wrong, but it was a constant fear someone would rear end you...I hope you are enjoying the bmw 1 .. There is something special about a bmw Tony

dewey

OUCH!

Now BMW knows what a $1,150.00 root canal without freezing must feel like.

dewey

Everyone should write that down repeatedly on the chalk board in front of the entire class!

Almost sounds like a after-school detention.