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Comments
I know this is not about the money as you can probably make more spending a few hours with your patients that in the courtroom. But I just love to see when us everyday people refuse to let some giant company run over us. Best of luck!!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Yep. Sounds like a great motto for any car company that has been getting its butt kicked in sales, day in and day out, for the last umpteen years!! :P
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
It should be for those that don't understand the truth of your statement.
The suggestion that sales numbers, or any type of marketing data, or quality of advertising, or consumer-oriented statistics somehow reveal the excellence of a car... is idiotic.
A lot of junk products can be purchased just as easily as only a few incredible products. Volume of sales is independent from the excellence of a product.
That was taught in the very first levels of advertising and marketing classes. Yet, we will need to be understanding of those that don't quite comprehend this basic and elementary concept.
Thanks for that post. It really hit the nail on the head. Something needed here for a long time, as some have totally run with the ball in the wrong direction on the field.
TM
Absolutely correct.
A quick example:
For a "zombie" (and my gawd, there are a lot of them out there) the Lexus GS is an excellent car. On the other hand, for enthusiasts, the 5-series is a much better car. However, does that mean that the enthusiasts are more "right" than the zombies? I think we all know the answer...
So at the end of the day, it all comes down to: Whatever floats your boat.
Nothing new.
The German crowd on this board will say anything at any time to support their brand and discredit the Japanese cars.
That is inflammatory, downwright incorrect, and ridiculous. I know that I have given credit to various Japanese cars, as has everyone else here.
What the heck are you talking about?
TM
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
It reminds me of the problems at the old HELM/ HELC forum, which was seriously divided due to that kind of mentality, which ultimately led to its ruin.
TM
Who ever said that? :confuse:
TM
Who ever said that? :confuse:
TM
Who ever said that?
I'll go on the record as saying it now, if I haven't already. The MDX is the only Acura that's any good. Sorry, but its true.
BTW, your suggestion that the Lexus GS is an excellent car for a "Zombie" is humorous. I had never thought of the car in that way before.
The Lexus IS350, thankfully then, appeals to a more passionate, youthful, and enthusiastic crowd... in fact many of them might even prefer a manual tranny, if only Lexus would listen to more of its customers.
TM
These are great cars in my humble opinion. I am not drawn to Merc, Lexus, Infinity Accura but these are some great cars to their owners.
I had previously NEVER would have considered a BMW and never drove one until 2006 but always kept a spot for the 635CSi and 735i in my mind because I liked the look and the feel of those. I consider myself an enthusiast but lower on the totem pole than those that prefer total drive control and optimum sport return.
Once I drove the '06 3'er, I could feel the return of the driving dynamics never felt in the US cars I've owned. Outclassed by several levels because the car does what you think. That was it for me and mile after mile I was returned smile after smile.
I can still feel it even when my car is at rest...knowing that when the moving starts, the car listens telepathically.
I openly applaud anyone that feels the same about any car they care about for the reasons only they know. Does that make their car excellent? Absolutely.
Regards,
OW
Is it though? What does the GS really offer the Zombie that the ES doesn't, excluding the obvious hybrid version and V8 that nobody buys?
Here's the only rub, or raised questions...
For the sake of argument let's just say that most of us here know more about cars than the typical Joe Shmoe. If you want to disagree with that, we'll make it a seperate thread.
So... if Joe Shmoe bought a Yugo, and really loved it (until it died...LOL!!)... was it a car of excellence due to Joe Shmoe's feelings about the car? Or does our knowlege about cars clearly tell us otherwise? Can we therefore call the Yugo the P.O.S. that is "truly" was?
IOW, do owner's "feelings" about their cars really tell any of us what cars are excellent?
IOW again, is there an objective perspective that can determine the excellence of a car, or is it all subjective, or is it a combination of the two?
Do you see where I'm going with this?
TM
In fact, I meant VERY true, but in a humorous kind of way!!!
We are on the SAME page here.
TM
Answer: The Yugo then is an excellent car for Joe Shmoe.
Simple as that.
Lou, assuming you know what a Yugo was, then wouldn't we be able to talk about the car's excellence or lack thereof on this forum from a more knowlegeable and objective perspective than Joe Shmoe's perspective?
Afterall, the Yugo was in fact a genuine P.O.S.... not a car of excellence, no matter what Joe Shmoe thought. The concensus of the freakin' world would be in agreement for goodness sake.
Try this Answer: Joe Shmoe had a personal preference for a P.O.S. Yugo, a car of no excellence.
TM
If Joe Shmoe's personal preference is the POS Yugo then the POS Yugo is the excellent car for him.
Excellence, as well as beauty, is in the eye of the beholder as I see it. We can agree they all provided transport which is fact that is a given but we need to appreciate even the slightest good to even remotely claim we know what is best.
I liken it to an appreciation of art..one can be a critic that claims to know what is best but what does an expert really know? Only his reality based on his experiences...that is why I feel GM has junk except for Trucks, 'Vette the new Malibu, CTS and Lambda CUV's . All the cars are useless to me. What do I really know in the end? Only my reality based upon my experiences.
Regards,
OW
So... this is interesting. Are you now suggesting that it doesn't matter what Consumer Reports represents as cars of excellence?... that a car is only excellent to each individual owner? Then why evaluate cars at all? Just use sales numbers, huh? Obviously not.
Or do we here on this forum know better?... and that the Yugo really was a P.O.S.... and it didn't matter how many were sold, as it was still a terrible car, without any excellence at all. I repeat, no matter how many were sold.
And gosh, don't all of us think certain cars are excellent that we don't actually OWN? Then ownership isn't a criteria for vehicle excellence!! Which further means sales numbers aren't a criteria for vehicle excellence!! And now we are back to Dewey's brilliant statement!!... and brilliant it is!!
You need to go to that chalk board and write it down 100 times after school.
TM
And the best way to deal with a ____ is? All together now... move on across that bridge and don't feed 'em on the way!!
:mad: :P :sick:
Be advised that the placement of this notice is governed solely by the timing of my arrival here. It reflects on something that has been building in here for several days and does not specifically reference nor exclude any other posts in its immediate proximity.
No I don't. I have repeated what I want to say many times and it's time to get out of this merry-go-around.
Have a good weekend.
Certainly the current TL has a prettier face than the MDX!
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
I do investigate new purchases from those who know but most are past/present owners as well as testers who've had the occasion to experience a vast array of products that we can only dream about.
Then, you make your own judgment based on all of the feedback you seek out and get what makes you feel the best.
Let's say I love the look of an F430 and I take a test drive and decide that is exactly what I want. I buy it from a third party with 2,000 miles at a cost of $300K. It then costs me an additional bundle to maintain/fix and use. If money is no object and all I get out of it is the pure joy of driving it, that individual car can be garbage to others but a dream to me.
Some buy cars that CR rates a "Best Buy" and that's OK. Some take a risk with a BMW like me. Some prefer an Accura or Lexus.
Based on the excitement at the show last week for cars, Merc was #1, BMW #2, Jaguar #3 and Hyundai #4 in mass excitement. I consider that a leading indicator but no way do I base excellence on that either. It is just another input to the equation. It says their offerings are appealing...beware the best babe on the block!
Now, I hope I didn't bore you to death 'cause I want all of your feedback on your excellent choice in the 135i. It started to fit me tonight...
Regards,
OW
Let's discuss
TM
Certainly the current TL has a prettier face than the MDX!
With the direction Acura has been on lately, I don't really expect that the new TL will be able to challenge the class leaders like the old one could back in '04. I'm sure the dash will be slathered in tiny, indistinguishable gray buttons ala Accord and TSX, surrounding that less than attractive Acura knob thing. The trim will most likely remain fake, and odds are the new corporate nose will be as bad as the TSX's. That just won't cut it against the 335i, or the new A4, or even the IS and CTS. The entry-lux market is far more brutally competitive than it was in '04, and yet so far Acura has responded by reheating TSX leftovers in the microwave.
I am not sure about that... at least with the 300hp V6 and SH-AWD the new TL will give the A4 a run for its money. Since the TL won't be based on the Accord like the TSX is I have confidence that the cockpit would be more upscale and have the less "Honda feel" in it. Maybe the wood trim will still be fake but the aluminum trim should be real like the current one is. Performance wise I really think that the new TL will be a head turner, it may not have the acceleration like the 335i/IS350 and the sharp handling like the 335i/G35 but it should be a very good all-arounder in the entry-lux class.
As for the new corporate nose, I am sure you are right about that...
But think what would happen Acura abandoned the "good enough" approach and improved the darned thing.
Don't you like to do the best possible job in your line of work? Do you think that Acura has done the best possible job? Sure, they've done some good things, but I just don't think they have given it their very best... they can and really should do better. And in comparison to their brethren in their respective categories, Acura vehicles in general fall short in some areas.
They CAN do better... alot better... and that's one good reason they should.
TM
Let me gladly be the first to be "disingenuous".
Firstly, #1 in sales is A prize, not just THE prize. And, yes, it is an important measure... of marketing success.
Secondly, it is NOT the only way to measure success. All the car rags, for example, that discuss the greatness of different cars, do not focus on the number of units sold. They focus on the merits of the car's design and performance. They come up with some pretty good benchmarks for some categories, and they even give RECOGNITION, and AWARDS (another "prize") for excellence that have nothing to do with the number of units sold, but everything to do with the vehicle's physical achievments and excellence.
So, units sold is A prize directly related to successful marketing, and recognition for excellence is another. The best cars don't always sell the most, and the cars that sell the most aren't necessarily the best cars. Again, Dewey hit the freakin' bullseye and said it best.
TM
These are just catch-up features though. Want 300hp and AWD right now? Just drive to the BMW or Infiniti dealer. The A4 will get there probably next year as well. Since when is the TL not based on the Accord? The formula hasn't changed since the Vigor days, Accord is released, TL is released a year later. It's the same thing this time. Sorry but after the MDX, the RDX, and the new TSX, I have no confidence in the interior whatsoever. I'm positive it will be some sort of cross between the TSX and Accord, with the same sunken info screen, big center knob, and loads of buttons.
I think Acura has, for the most part lately, built the best Acuras that they could given their apparent corporate parameters (e.g. FWD, lower pricing, fours or V6). And some models are more successful in "doing the best Acura could do" than others. Some try to insult (e.g.) the TL by saying it is a "Fancy Accord." Personally, I don't care because it is the car I wanted, not the Accord. My family has owned and enjoyed Accords. The Accord is a great car, fulfilling its mission with every iteration. So, if the TL is the Uber-Accord, far out! And remember, to many (e.g. New England skiers...) FWD is NOT a four letter word!
I will agree that Acura, imo, is more of a mid-tier luxury brand as compared to Lexus or Infiniti as out of the box those two had V8 powered, rwd, luxury interpretations of MB and BMW. And this bothers me not. However, as Acura has announced their intent to be Tier 1, LG is right. There has to be a bit of a quantum leap here (Oh, boy.). And, yes, Tag, there is no doubt that Honda can do better if they put their engineering mind and corporate purse strings into it. Let's hope as even more excellent competition will continue to strengthen the entire herd, right?
The TL may be long in tooth, but it continues to (I believe) sell ~4500/month. Down form the height, of course, but not bad. And, to these more and more near-sighted eyes, the TL, at ~$30k, still offers a great ride and value, faux wood/carbon fiber and all!
But, I think I'm going European for my next ride. It's been a while...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Let me gladly be the first to be "disingenuous".
Firstly, #1 in sales is A prize, not just THE prize. And, yes, it is an important measure... of marketing success.
Here we go again....In the United States, I bet dollars to doughnuts, MB, BMW, & AUDI would rather be the TOP SELLING Luxury Brand in the United States than where they are currently. Trying to minimize the TOP SELLING Luxury Brand is absurd, they are all trying their absolute very best to sell as many cars as they can in the World's most profitable Luxury Car market.
Take a risk in a bmw :sick:
I completely agree. Of course that is true.
I am just not willing to suggest that a car's excellence is measured by the number of units sold.
Sales success and design excellence are not the same thing. THAT's what I've been saying all along, in total agreement with Dewey's post.
TM
So true.
Using sales figures to determine which car is best for you is like someone using divorce statistics to determine if his or her particlar future spouse is a worthy bet.
It's nonsense.
Somebody used the term prowess to describe being number one in sales without conveniently mentioning that the LS is number one in sales mainly because of its lowball price relative to the competition. In a prior post I had shown how the MB S Class is in fact NUMBER ONE in terms of sales revenue and that was mainly due to the higher prices(actual ARP) they sold for relative to the LS. Although IMO that is highly irrelevant in terms of a reason for buying an MB S Class.
That's why your original post was brilliant. It is the one simple truth that can hold water.
TM
A forum member here eloquently wrote how bonding with a car is all about having positive driving experiences and how personal it is. In essence that is what it means in terms of enjoying a car.
It is beyond my comprehension how anyone can bond with a car by reading a Consumers Report Magazine or the latest Sales Report or by promoting how reliable their new car is to everyone they meet and at the same time trying to persuade how horrible a specific brand is in comparison to their new car. That IMO is no love of any car. It is merely a way of rationalizing on why the hell they bought such a boring car in the first place.
Best-sellers are a marketing and sales statistic, not necessarily representative of excellence. And that applies to all sorts of products, not just cars. It even applies to hamburgers... LOL!
And yes, I and others on this forum that saw the GT-R in person had nothing but praise for the vehicle. I don't think I could have been any clearer as to how much I respect the vehicle and how impressed I am with it.
TM
There was some recent talk about BMW customer service. Since I took delivery of the 135i, UPS delivered a set of plush carpeted factory floor mats, while I was on vacation, and then yesterday, I received a gift box from the sales agent. Inside was a nice bottle of cabernet sauvignon and specialty crackers and coookies. Nice little touch.
I also received a phone call from the sales agent's assistant the week after delivery (while I was on vacation). She called just to see how I was doing, and to see if I needed any questions answered.
Service after the sale? So far, so good... very good.
TM
Regards,
OW
You are correct to a certain degree. Success in the US is important in the US and that is about it. If the US market was the catch all, then Lexus should be the number one brand globally. However, this if FAR FAR from the case. Globally, Lexus is a also-ran compared to the sales volume of the top three premium brands of Audi, MB, and BMW. Lexus' success in America has not translated to Europe (actually, Lexus' sales are negative for the first quarter in Europe while Audi, BMW, and MB are positive) which will surpass the US as the biggest automotive market by 2009. Lexus has made strong inroads in Russia which accounts for half of its European sales and this might bode well for them in the future in establishing a European presence. But taking Eastern Europe as whole, Audi dominates the region easily blowing Lexus out of the water. And of course there is China. The American market will always play a key role in the overall global market, but European premium brands will have to transfer more and more of their production here to stay competitive. If the Yen continues to rise against the dollar, the Lexus proposition will not be so value based in the future. American jingoism aside, remember these premium brands have to play in the global playground and not just the American sandbox. Success is measured globally these days, as profits dwindle for premium brands here in the US. And I do not agree with you that America is the most profitable market in the world any longer for global premium brands. Just look up the many business articles to this effect. BMW is taking a huge profit hit for being so successful in the US.
You should feel very lucky that the premium brands continue to subsidize their vehicles at such a great extent so Americans can afford them, otherwise the prices would be unaffordable for most buyers. Who pays the price for this subsidization, European consumers do. Is it fair, probably not, but America continues to play a central role in the global automotive market for now anyway. But, not the most important as many of you think.
Tagman has it right!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I am guessing that the 135i does not have the complexities of the 7 series and lucky you...If you don't have probelms, you'll continue to live in bliss. Good Luck
Reality2, thank you for the above statement, and your entire post. While I have been carrying the torch in recent days in support of that concept, let's not forget that Dewey first summarized it best before I, or anyone else, ran with it.
Let me add this please.
A best-seller is only that. The further question of in "which market" might be considered. After all, they are called "markets" aren't they? For example, the U.S. "market" or the Japanese "market". They are called "markets" because ultimately it's all about MARKETING... which has absolutely NOTHING to do with the excellence of any car... whether it be a Mercedes S-Class, or a Lexus LS, or an Audi A8, or a BMW 7-Series.
For anyone that links excellence with sales, the following dilemma will occur. The same car can be "marketed" in different "markets", and therefore have different sales results. It might not sell well in the Japanese market, but sell very well in the U.S. market, or visa-versa. Can this be an excellent car in one market and not in another? Of course not! The car is the same thing. What is different isn't the car itself, but the sales numbers associated with the car, and thus the marketing statistics are what is different. So, sales numbers are all about marketing and a car's excellence has nothing to do with it.
This concept places a reality check on anyone's argument that if a car sells well, it is therefore a car of excellence. In truth, it is a marketing success, and that's what it is. Now, that's still significant. Very significant. Marketing of cars is an important part of the industry. It is not, however, a reflection of any car's excellence. We can, and do, talk about the marketing and sales of cars, just like we also talk about the physical characteristics and designs associated with various cars. Both interesting and important.
The bottom line on all of this is this... There is no absolute correlation between a car's number of sales and that same car's level of excellence. They are seperate criteria.
TM
I wish I could say that is true... BUT... not the case entirely. With the iDrive and advanced communication (Bluetooth, hands-free, voice command, telephone), navigation (w/real-time traffic), entertainment systems (w/ satellite, high-definition radio, iPod and USB connection), and the "comfort access" system (auto sensor for lock, unlock, start and stop), park-distance control w/ on-screen monitor, and a host of electronics that I know nothing about, and then there is auto-leveling and "cornering" Xenon lights, and dual-zoned automatic climate controls, as well as all the usual power-assist devices, such as power windows, steering, heated power mirrors, 12-way power seats, etc., and the premium features such as garage access, self-dimming mirrors, cruise, auto-headlights, and heated headlight washer jets, and rain-sensing wipers, 3-stage heated seats, tire-pressure monitors, remote steering wheel controls, and more... and oh my goodness, under the hood are those twin turbo systems to consider as well as the drivetrain's DTC and DSC.... I think you get the point.
In other words, it's almost as loaded as any car can get... plenty to go wrong!!
Hopefully it all holds together. But you know me... if it lets me down too much or if it's time to move on, I'll get rid of it. Afterall, I kept the Lotus for a few months (traded in for a Porsche), and I kept the FJ cruiser for a few months (traded in on the GTI), kept the GTI for a few months (traded in on the 135i).... so who knows?
But, my plan is to keep the Porsche for a long while, keep the BMW for a long while, and keep the wife's MDX for a little while longer, and sell the Jag. My daughter will be old enough to drive late this year... UUGH, and I don't know what car that will end up being yet... Civic? 128i?
BTW, thanks for the well-wishes!! Much appreciated! I hope I never have to go through what you went through.
TM
I am curious to know how you feel regarding the drivers seat room and comfort. How are you managing and do long drives maintain your comfort vs. what you expect. It might be to early to tell since you have the car a short time so far.
I have 2 years before the oldest daughter hits the pavement! I'll be tracking your experience very, very carefully!
Regards,
OW
I'd suggest something with AWD. Subie Impreza maybe?
It will be well worth the reasonable fee, and increased peace of mind, to know that she should know how to handle a car with precision capabilities beyond 99.9% of the rest of the population. The plus side is that it is also tons of FUN to learn the stuff they teach. But, even then, we'll all be praying when our kids are out driving.
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TM