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Comments
The divine appendage never lies.
(The Ear is a long running, usually entertaining rumormonger in the paper up there).
Magically, a whole lot of cars suddenly got new data, which equals disqualification.....More "junkers" eligible to stay on the road?
"Shell and others want to turn to tar, and extract oil from coal. But these are very carbon-intensive processes, and will deepen the climate problem," Dr Leggett said.
"What we need to do is accelerate the mobilisation of renewables, energy efficiency and alternative transport.
Warning: Oil supplies are running out fast (Independent UK)
Some Clunker Deals Based on Old EPA Numbers Will Be Honored, DOT Rules (AutoObserver)
On one hand, this program is obviously ill conceived to be "charitable" . On the other hand, the folks with the EXACT same make, mode,l year , etc., AFTER 24 July 2009 are getting the shaft; or more pc, not in compliance with program "eligibility requirements".... change 2 section, yada yada....
"Sorry Mr. Jones but we'll need to replace those tonsils that were taken out last week. What's that? Oh yes, of course you will have to pay for BOTH operations". :confuse:
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
It's getting hot around my neighborhood - we were rousted a little after 5 am by the sheriff because there's a big grass fire behind our house. Nothing like seeing flames 100' away from your back porch.
Hope all is well at your place. I also feel for your problems with Blue Cross. I am so thankful we have Kaiser here and Hawaii if we finish out retirement in Hilo. There are a lot of HMOs and PPOs that are bad. I don't think you really want the same bunch taking care of your health that just bungled up C4C in a big way. And it could get worse if the Senate has their way. As long as people want every medical procedure available to them it is going to be expensive. You just cannot get the same level of health care in countries that control the system as you do here. The only thing that may improve is the fact that you cannot sue the Federal Government when their doctor cuts off the wrong leg. Now that may not be a plus either. :sick:
Back to Global Warming. Looks like another nice day here in Paradise. We hit mid 80s yesterday, supposed to be the same today.
Back to GW - none here in NE. Normal or below normal temperatures all summer. 80's and 70's for highs the rest of the week. No wildfires either; I think you could drop napalm in our woods and nothing would burn.
My insurance just switched over to Wells Fargo for administration, with Costco mail order meds. So now we get to learn a new system until it gets switched again. And you think that's progress eh? I'd rather deal with the feds.
I've seen you tout Kaiser before but we have a relative over in the Bay Area that really got messed over by them. And she did sue and won, but that takes a few years and there's never much left over even when you do win to take care of the ongoing bills. We're talking a net under $30k for a lifetime of pain after the "medical" person got done with her.
Kernick, I'd be banko if I had to pay cash for the stuff we've had done around here the last couple of years. Don't get me started - I'm of the age where the usual topic of conversation is retirement and surgeries. :P
Ah well, enough digressing. How about a way to make money from "green" electric vehicles?
Buffett Fund Earns $1 Billion From $230 Million, 10-Month Investment in BYD (Green Car Advisor)
However, it does seem rather odd that the air quality in affect areas are not measured and correlated with all this down turn in the economy. The environmental conservatives can be proud of putting Detriot in "arrested decay". For example, Detriot MI should have WONDERFUL air quality for all the people (boarded up housing) vacancies of the remaining serviceable house) the so called "dirty manufacturing" they have helped to stop, and for the purposes of this thread CARS that have left the area.
Indeed they should measure the areas with the largest clunker turn in hits to gauge the air quality effectiveness of their "real world" programs.
Not to rain on anyones parade, but I would swag, the change in air quality due to this program is not even MEASURABLE (it is of course calculated) let alone statistically significant.
Speaking of electric vehicles; I'm not so interested in cars. But I do hear that the Chinese are manufacturing some electric scooters or bicycle, and I'd be willing to pay $2-3K for one. I'm not willing to buy what's out there now, having a high price tag (due to union labor?). I probably could use the scooter 10-20% of the time instead of my car.
You can go with Uncle, I will stick with Kaiser. I am sure Barry Care will be more costly. It will have to be with all his Chicago cronies taking part. If people come from countries with socialized medicine to be treated in the USA. Something is wrong with their system. And they all fall short. It all comes down to what level of care are you willing to settle for.
Which gets US back to MM/CC. If the $79 billion wasted on GW had been spent on finding cures for cancer etc how much healthier would we be. Or just putting warnings on all processed cereals and food would be a big plus. I would guess dry cereal will kill you as fast as tobacco.
Thanks. Wanna buy some skis?
Next time, smoke that doobie to the end before you toss it. :P
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Go back and read post 6066. Who brought up the issue of "white guys" or minorities. And yes, I challenged him on that. For one, it had nothing to do with global warming or the discussion in this forum. And, why add the word white? And why didn't you challenge that statement?
And as to helping minorities, I have no problem with that. Maybe your ancestors or mine were not directly involved. Still, it is the right thing to do.
And what about the comment in the post about "Maybe a Honduras style coup". Apparently that didn't seem to bother you at all. Are we now advocating civil disobedience over global warming??? Give me a break. Even though James Hanson did some good work in the past on climate studies, I would fire him over his recent arrest.
"Perhaps you should go back to college and learn how not to judge historical events (however reprehensible) by modern standards.'"
Slavery has always been wrong. Modern Standards!! Only 40 years ago LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act of 1968
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1968
So no, in our modern times we still have problems with prejudice. And yes, I realize the issue goes multiple ways.
And since this is about cars and GCC it appears the new Nissan Leaf will save the day. Its not to late to get your solar panels up on the roof and your wind turbine installed for emission free driving.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/08/nissan-leaf-20090801.html#more
The issue is that man is changing the climate by his actions. Does it matter? That is really the essence of the discussion.
Given that people in general have given up the nomadic lifestyle and we build houses and hotels and roads and hospitals and refineries all at the ocean's edge.... does it matter if billions or trillions of dollars of infrastructure gets flooded out? Do we care if Lake Powell or Mead dry up in 2050?
Ever been to Sanibel Island in Florida? Nice place to vacation. Elevation is only 3 feet. Want to guess how much infrastructure will be lost if sea level rises a few feet in this century? Multiply that by a few thousand and you get the idea of the potential problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanibel,_Florida
" I agree that it does seem strange but here is a tip for you....FOLLOW THE MONEY !!!! "
To Exxon/Mobil, I did...
And many of us feel that it is insignificant. That most of the data is flawed by political types using bits and pieces of scientific evidence to sell their tax and spend programs. If you believe all the stories put out by those that believe in Man Made GW/CC you must know they say it is too late to avoid disaster. Well then quit wasting tax dollars and spend it to build dikes around those places that will be inundated. Heck they cannot even keep New Orleans from flooding. Especially when the tax dollars are spent building casinos. So following the money will show US just how much corruption is surrounding in the MM/CC issue. This country has a lot bigger problems than Sanibel Florida. They get worse by the day. Worrying about what will happen 50-100 years from now would be laughable if it was not so seriously accepted by so many sheep.
PS
You never addressed why it was ok for minorities to fake documents sent to Congress. Or why minorities should get cheaper utilities. Just curious. I have black and Hispanic friends that are offended by that sort of condescension.
HAVANA, July 29 - Russia and Cuba have signed contracts that ”set the bases” for Russian oil company Zarubezhneft to search for oil in Cuba’s part of the Gulf of Mexico, Cuba’s state-run press said on Wednesday.
In its online edition, Communist Party newspaper Granma said four oil-related contracts had been signed during a visit on Tuesday by Russian Deputy Prime Minister Igor Sechin to the island that was his country’s close ally during the Cold War.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ea362a36-7ce0-11de-9f29-00144feabdc0.html
We know the Gulf holds untold amounts of oil. It should help bring Cuba into the 21st Century.
In the last 50-100 years we have come to understand that geology and the climate are always changing, and have always changed. To think that Sanibel Island has always existed and should always exist is unnatural. It's just that geological and climate change occur over centuries or over millenium.
Since we know this I do find it somewhat incredulous that our society does allow or even want certain areas populated and developed. For example if someone offers me free land and a house in SF or New Orleans, or near Mt. Hood, I would not live there. I might accept the property and resell it to some person who's willing to play the lottery on the ticking awaiting disaster.
Personally I think the money spent on GW would be much better spent on protecting humans from nature. We're sitting on the surface of this planet basically blind and defenseless against nature. As happened to Jupiter just 20 years ago, the Earth is sitting in a shooting gallery of comets and asteroids. I'm much more worried about nature killing off most of humanity, than I am about man changing the temperature a few degrees!
Given what is already known scientifically, it is also highly illogical.!!
I watched a "plate tectonics" program (history channel?) that happened to take (volcanic) ICELAND as an example. It literally SPEWS toxic gasses etc 24/7 and for literally millions upon millions of years.
So this plate tectonics geologist stood in the middle of two plate fissures and said words to the effect: to my left is the plate for continental US and to my right is the plate for continental Europe and the plates separate at the rate of 2.54 cm (1 in) per year. In "human terms," about how long finger nails grow in a year. So nothing startling in a years' time. BUT over GEOLOGICAL time.......US/Europe separated by literally oceans..... (aka thousands of miles)
In another show, another geologist made the "startling" discovery and proved that NYC and Scotland shared stones that broke OFF and separated due to plate tectonics. Obviously that separation was a LONG time ago.
link title
Because his use of the term "white" was merely descriptive of himself. Your use of it was incendiary.
And just so you know, not all my ancestors were from Ireland.
This is off topic so I will have no more to say on it.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Indeed, let's all move on and get back to the topic. Thanks.
That is one of the poster children of the man made GW cult. How many times have the Sanibel's 6000 residents had to flee from a hurricane. How many times per century will we rebuild Galveston & New Orleans when it is wiped out by hurricane. We are slow learners when it comes to building in vulnerable locations. We continue to build in CA on hillsides that regularly give way taking multi million dollar homes down into the neighbors yards. If these eco terrorists would address the issues of building in places likely to flood or be destroyed by storms, you might give them some credibility. The whole state of Florida is a likely candidate for baptism if the ocean rises a few feet. We know much of CA was under water at one time before any Suburbans existed. You can tell by the way the high priest of GW talks that he is just another snake oil salesman. If he was educating people on anything of substantive value it would be ok. He is just making up lies to generate fear amongst the weak populace. The GW fear mongering is losing steam as people start to see through the half truths and tax and spend politics.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
If their numbers are correct
CO2 saved by clunker program 700,000 tons a year
CO2 emitted by the U.S. 6,400,000,000 tons a year
And assuming my calculator worked correctly, that works out to a 0.0109375% reduction in CO2 at a cost of $1 billion or maybe it should be $3 billion. In any case, the cost to reduce CO2 by 10% using this method would be somewhere between $1 and $3 trillion dollars give or take a $100 million or so.
The article did not appear to look at what happens when you scrap the vehicles before they reach their natural death. Creating the 250,000 new cars before they are needed would actually increase manufacturing emissions, not to mention increasing the need for resources. I think the term people are using is a sugar rush. I guess that is why it is called a clunker program.
I was particularly struck by specifically the "guzzler" Toyota Camry. One day the "guzzler" is eligible. The next day the SAME "guzzler" dis allowed. It is read one day by the "OLD" EPA ratings, and the next day disallowed by the "new" EPA ratings. So if these government criteria are to be believed, then I was wildly optimistic to state the research indicated the fuel mileage standard of 27 mpg had a DEFACTO standard of 22 mpg.
The government criteria states up front 18/19 mpg for the UBIQUITOUS Camry(etc). So in effect, the research I have cited is 22% to 16% HIGH !!!
This would mean the REAL defacot standards are probably more like 15 to 19 mpg
So if the so called "economy " Camry qualifies as a "guzzler"..... :sick: :lemon:
Did you catch the recent news on Jupiter - the Big Black Eye?
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Hubble_Space_Telescope_Captures_Rare_Jupiter_C- ollision_999.html
Acquitting Comets Of Catastrophes
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Acquitting_Comets_Of_Catastrophes_999.html
The key to framing this issue is looking at the relative risk factors. Jupiter appears to be our cosmic benefactor. It does a nice job sweeping up asteroids and comets that enter the solar system.
"To think that Sanibel Island has always existed and should always exist is unnatural. "
I agree. My point is that the few thousand people that live there think it will last forever. This type of philosophy is prevalent among the free market types. They do not want any government restrictions. Developers and land owners have a tendency to think that if they buy a piece of property they should be able to do anything with it. And if anything happens they expect the government to bail them out. Sound familiar?
I have mentioned this before, but it bears repeating. The government has spent 500 million dollars dealing with the flooding at Devils Lake, ND. All because people built on a lake bottom during a dry period.
"Current sea level rise has occurred at a mean rate of 1.8 mm per year for the past century,[1][2] and more recently at rates estimated near 2.8 ± 0.4[3] to 3.1 ± 0.7[4] mm per year (1993-2003). "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_sea_level_rise
In ten years at the above rate we get 28 to 31 mm
In 100 years at the above rate we get 280 to 310 mm or about 11 to 12.2 inches. That is probably high enough to doom the island when you factor in a storm or hurricane storm surge. Maybe they need to but a sign up that says this many days till the island is unlivable. Sort of a doomsday clock.
This happens in many parts of the USA. Building in 100 year flood plains etc. When Katrina was in the news, I read an article that claimed the Gulf was eroding NO by so many feet per year for a long time. John McPhee has a good book called "The Control of Nature". It gives several examples of man's feeble attempts to control that which is beyond his control. And the billions wasted trying. I think of MM/CC being an extension of that waste. That does not mean I believe we should be wasteful of natural resources and pollute our air, water and the land.
PS
In the case of Sanibel, they could get some tips from Holland on building dikes all around the Island. Or keep dumping fill dirt to raise it to keep it good for another 100 years. Many scientists are saying our feeble attempts to stop GW are not going to work anyway, right?
Senate to consider $2B 'clunkers' refill
But then I busted up laughing when the US government brought "anti competition" anti trust (I forget the category, it has been so long) against Microsoft. So what software did Federal legal sytem use to generate all this paper work against Microsoft? MICROSOFT WORD and other MICROSOFT....products !!???
Couldn't even cut S. Jobs a break !!?? Like for some reason it was IMPOSSIBLE to buy APPLE products?? :lemon:
If I were B. Gates, I'd use the $4,500 on GP !!!!
More scientists weigh in:
"A task force of the American Psychological Association concluded yesterday that what's preventing Americans from taking action on climate change is uncertainty, mistrust and denial. In short, it's psychology rather than rational skepticism about the solutions offered by so-called experts that is preventing everyone from going green."
Shrinks Think Resisting Climate Change Measures Is Crazy (Business Insider).
You think some grant money was involved somewhere?
Like I used to say, I used to be firmly undecided, but now, I am not so sure!!
I am assuming you are using the word untold to mean; incalculably great in number or quantity.
I was not sure of the current estimates for gulf oil so a quick check was in order.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/758Syms2006OCSMapWithPlanni.p- ng
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves_in_the_United_States
The estimated reserves of about 45 billion barrels for the Gulf look good until you compare it to how much the U.S. is using:
20 million barrels per day
7.3 billion barrels per year
292 billion barrels in 40 years
If you add onshore and offshore estimates, double that
48.5 + 85.9 = 134.4 ... you get 268.8 billion barrels
"Missed it by that much..." Maxwell Smart, Agent 86
I would call the reserves modest. There is hope for global warming yet because the U.S. will run out of oil in 40 to 50 years. :shades:
Cash for Clunkers is going to cut that way down. :shades:
The estimated reserves of about 45 billion barrels for the Gulf
Would you rather buy it from Exxon or Castro? I think the chances of spillage in the Gulf are much higher with the Russians drilling. They have no vested interest in keeping the oil from polluting Key West.
There is hope for global warming yet because the U.S. will run out of oil in 40 to 50 years.
Frankly I could care less. I will not be around to see it. I will be around to see the steady loss of jobs as a result of over regulation and taxation of business. Forcing them to other more friendly countries. Cap n Trade could be the final straw that breaks the USA. I believe it is part of the globalization plans for America. Just another slave state the the global elite.
I was watching some show he other day on Discovery or such about an oil platform that was drilling in 5,000' of water in the Gulf. They said that within a few years they would have the capability of drilling in 10,000+' of water. So given the advances I'd expect vast areas of ocean to become accessible and new oil entering the reserve-column.
Looking out into the future 50-100 years, if fusion power is available then, the globe could start a process of transforming the atmosphere to whatever is desired. Scientists have considered the future technology that would convert the atmosphere of inhospitable planets, so that they would have an atmosphere where humanity could live. Basically power plants could be constructed to bring air in and using the electrical power and some chemistry strip or add chemicals to the air. Since chemical reactions are reversible given the energy to recombine molecules or break them up, we theoretically can blend the atmosphere as we wish. You just need the energy to do so. Until we find sufficient energy to replace fossil fuels, it doesn't happen.
Hmm. According to the Swiss their glacier started retreated in the 1860's. Not many autos around then, and the CO2 wasn't too high.
Could it have been the praying that stopped the glacier? Will the praying stop GW and we can just forget all this foolish lifestyle change?
"By the 1800s, more than a million London residents were burning soft-coal, and winter "fogs" became more than a nuisance." Multiply by some percent of the ~1.2 billion people living in the world then...
EPA
Most people throughout history burned wood for cooking and heat. That releases CO2. Now if you stop burning wood and burn coal, why do you suspect that would release so much more CO2. I think you are confusing particulate contamination of coal vs. wood, with CO2 being released.
Coal may have more air pollutants, but people burning either wood or coal release about the same amount of CO2.
If you look at the total CO2 cycle on the globe today, humans are releasing aa few % of what is naturally released, and our population is 6+ billion and very industrialized. The much smaller and much less industrialized world of the 19th century released hardly any CO2 relative to natural releases.
If you're right and mankind had already affacted the climate by 1860, then that amount of CO2 was too much then. The CO2 buildup would have had to start many years earlier. How do you propose that the current population could ever put out less CO2 than say 1840?
Anyone not believing in GW just might get "snitched on".
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Why, with clean coal of course.
Not too topical but it's like old home week for me - "in Anchorage, the drinking water comes from Eklutna Glacier runoff. There's little threat to Anchorage's water supply, but Bolivia's Chacaltaya Glacier disappeared this year, earlier than predicted. Its disappearance worries scientists that other glaciers in the region could be melting faster than expected, potentially threatening water supplies for millions of people in South America." ADN
1. ingestion of C02
2. output of oxygen
3.. bio diesel
4. ethanol
5. animal feed source.
In addition, ocean water can be used to grow algae. ( you know to keep from flooding places like NYC (because folks are "too stupid" to know not to live near water?) It can be further processed (desalination for one) and say used to refill the ogallala acquifier link title, 24/7, etc etc
That sounds "fishy". Excuse me while I send an e-mail.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Too late, global warming is already decimating the fisheries. :P
"We will lose our tourism industries with the collapse of the coral reefs, we will lose our fisheries and even if we still have some land to live on, we'll have nothing to live by."
Too little, too late on climate, warn Pacific leaders (Theage.com)