I believe they're known as "wood-furnaces" as opposed to wood-stoves which go inside. The furnaces take large pieces of wood. I guess the attraction is that you don't take up room inside with the stove and hearth, the risk of burning your house down is less, you may not have a 2nd chimney in your house, and you don't have the mess with the wood and ashes inside.
The furnace is probably well insulated to the outside and the heat is blown is blown in the house thru a duct.
I like a little of the wood-smoke smell, but in tight neighborhoods, the smoke stacks should be higher.
Last night and today we got about 12" of snow. I wish those people down in Florida and the Carolinas would keep their cold weather. About the only people who like the cold are the skiiers. The rest of us burn a lot of fossil fuel in our houses and vehicles to combat this climate.
Well in that circumstance I could see the irritation and predictable bylaw intervention. I have worked at properties in an area where someone (one of their neighbours) was always burning something. And sometimes it was very toxic stuff like the shielding on 14/2 household wiring or other really nasty noxious poisons. Sometimes it is to keep the blackflies and mosquitos away, but mostly it is just that they have to be burning something all the time. Even when it was 90 out, they had bonfires going.
But in the case of an outdoor furnace, the solutions seems fairly obvious that instead of banning them, impose a regulation that requires the chimneys to have large enough structural base to properly support 15 to 20 feet of chimney. It would definitely add cost, but so what. Expecting your neighbour to have to constantly breath their smoke when they are trying to enjoy a beautiful autumn afternoon BBQ on the deck, isn't reasonable either.
As for the attraction, I can offer some input since I am considering the investment of one myself.
here are the pros:
- you can load very long logs, so when cutting you can do basically half the number of cuts which saves time, gas, wear n tear on the saw and your back. - you can load enough wood to heat your home and go away for a weekend and not have to hurry back to stoke the furnace. - that one is huge and is one of my primary reasons to anti up the big ticket cost of one - insurance companies do not nail you with big premiums due to heating with wood. That also adds up although if you are considered a low risk customer, no previous claims of any sort, then it would take a lifetime to pay for the furnace at todays rates. Of course we know that fraud and abuse/negligence will do nothing but continue to raise insurance premiums, so as years go by it will become a more significant savings. - they are cleaner - no matter how careful you are, there is dust associated with removing ash from the fire box, and the dirt of the wood itself - plus, while not much more than an inconvenience, you will probably see a spider population increase if you start bringing wood into the basement/home. - like an interior wood stove, they are dead quiet conductive heat that is a joy to have as opposed to forced air oil or gas furnaces. - but the ODWF is actually better in that, you can space heat any area of the home you want (usually with baseboard heaters in front of each window, which is common practice with any coolant based heating system - there are optional hot water boiler accessories that allow you to heat your household hot water instead of using gas/oil or electric water heaters, so quite the savings in the winter months. - that is another biggy for me altho i am also investigating a boiler type system for my wood stove i use now. Expansion reservoirs that allow the heated water to always have incoming replacement water, yet operate as a 'sealed' system makes things more complicated. And of course the easiest style would be one that wraps the stove, so it's not gonna be all that great a looker.. - you may have to go outside to fuel it, but it is a once a day or even two day affair...no biggy - if you are built at ground level on a cement slab, then installing plumbing heatlines embedded in the concrete acts as one huge floor radiant radiator that heats the entire house evenly from the floor up in every room. Never cold feet.. - and of course you could expand on this with the same principle to heat a garage, workshop, or huge barn if you have a farm. - and there are probably a few other pros that i can't think of right now..
Cons: - cost - this is a big one - backyard smoke with the low chimneys - use of real estate if you don't have unlimited space - naturally they are huge compared to the sq footage of a wood stove indoors - can't really cook on top of one in a power outage - outdoor furnaces rely on electricity in two ways. Both the blower for the firebox use an electrical fan and of course the coolant circulation pump uses electricity. I think there are optional 12 volt backup power devices available tho. While the electricity usage cost is not excessive, it becomes an issue if u suffer power outages often, but usually this is a rare occurrence.
but that's about it.
So sign me up for one..except you can buy a small 1 year old car for what they cost depending on the size you need. Here i have seen prices range from 5000 to 12000 bucks. Ouch..
Good explanation. Furnace, not a "stove". I think most of them around here are of the hot water variety.
My gas forced air is plumbed with a wood stove. It should come in handy if we get an extended power outage and the gas shuts down. Of course, it's plumbed into the vents, and if the power is off, the fan hooked to the wood stove won't work. But we can survive in the basement ok.
The outdoor furnaces really aren't cheap, (neither is wood for that matter) and there seems to be quite a few abandoned around here. Don't know if it's because they get a lot of wear and tear out in the elements or if people just get tired of feeding them. My luck, the furnace would go out at 4 am in a raging blizzard.
I've almost always had forced air and I've never really liked it. Luckily this house has the quietest system we've ever had.
You're in Alska aren't you? That sure would be a drive and a half. But the idea of being able to buy a used one for a song is very tempting. With a calculator i'm guessing a pretty good case could be rationalized to pursue one there and invest the gas and the trip to get it home. I would go for the actual box and assorted hardware, coolant lines etc and build my own structure on a slab of course. I have tried to figure out where exactly the cost is justified, and i don't see it to be honest. Charge (all very reasonably high prices here) a grand for the firebox, 100 for the fan, 500? for the circulation pump, lines and reservoir and even 500 for some steel siding and a chimney, that is still only 2100 dollars. The customer has to still invest in his own cement slab, why do the small ones start at 5000 and go up from there? Seems like a rip on the idea.
I do know that inferior quality units that cheaped out on very little or no SSteel, would actually rust out, so not all of those abandoned units would be worth pursuing. Fireboxes left with damp old ashes can be very corrosive so would accelerate the corrosion process too.
Out of curiosity, what is the charge for dried/seasoned cord wood there? Bush cord being 3 rows of 16"x 4' high x 8' long. A face cord is one row. And do they deliver always or sell for less if you pick it up? They do both here. Pay a lot more for delivery included. Astute buyers, buy green and store and season their own wood a year or 18 months in advance, and can save about a third/cord. It is a very tough way to make a tiny wage on if you are small scale such as myself. It can be healthy but also very dangerous work. I watched my father get killed right in front of me by a widow-maker when i was 13. To this day, there isn't a single tree no matter the size, that i walk up to and survey where it wants to go and what i must do to make it go elsewhere, that i don't relive that very tragic day. The lesson must be to learn from our elder's mistakes...altho to be fair to Dad as he was extremely conscientious, in his case he would have had to carry an extension ladder out to the bush, climb up 20 feet and brush some fresh fallen snow from a 6" maple branch base to witness that it wasn't really attached and was resting, balanced, on the tree he was cutting down. So today, I look for stuff like that and try to never make assumptions about anything in the bush.
Ok, i sorta got off topic, unless the consensus is that wood smoke contributes to global warming as much as IC engine exhaust does.. haha But that is a whole other topic, and one that ignorance often prevails in also. FWIW, newer type efficient firebox wood heaters and cook stoves, if installed correctly, burn a LOT cleaner than in years past.
No, moved from there in 2000 and just recently moved to the UP of Michigan. First real winter we've gotten to enjoy in a decade. I think they make the wood furnaces around here, or down in lower Michigan or Wisconsin/Minnesota somewhere.
There's plenty of timber around here but I haven't priced it. I got around 3.5 cords of nice red fir for the Boise decade for the indoor wood stove and after it got used up along year 7, I removed the stove. Didn't much like fooling with it, although it's a nice radiant heat when it's running. Folks we get beef from have an old working wood cookstove in their kitchen that's lovely to sit around. But it's just too much hassle compared to simply paying the natural gas bill and turning up the thermostat (and replacing the filters and cleaning the humidifier). But I'm lazy.
Come to think of it, there is a spare woodstove in the basement in addition to the one that's hooked up to the vents. I was going to sell it but I might get ambitious enough to get a sauna going.
I did wonder what a face cord was; lots of those for sale. None of the outdoor furnaces look big enough to handle that big of a log so I must be missing something.
That's terrible about your dad. Dangerous occupation. :sick:
Oh so u are on the same end of the country as I am. Still quite drive, but a lot more feasible.
It could be your ODWF are smaller there? The one's I've seen at Pioneer Shows and such up here, take 32 to 48" logs i think. 3' for sure tho.
More info on a face cord... A true FC is 16'' stick, but they are still sold and charged as full width even if the order is for 12 to 14" sticks cuz many small stoves only take a foot long log. There may be less wood weight / cord, but there is still the extra handling, cutting and splitting so no deals are ever offered for a shorter wood order.
Ya, thanks...it was many years ago...still miss him tho.. He was a great man. Arms like iron. Amazing welder/mechanic and nature lover. Taken too soon.
I might Google the ODWF down around your area and compare to up here. what is UP?
UP is shorthand for Yooper. Pasties, woods, lakes, critters, clean air, open space. Got everything ... but jobs.
You confused me a bit about the face cords. I was thinking you'd buy the 8' logs and shove them into the furnace. Could work with a conveyor, like the pellet stoves.
Natural gas must be cleaner though. At least once it gets to my house.
i thought maybe i had..that's why i took another stab at it...so ya, our furnaces will be the same size as down your way..
Glad ya gave me more than Yooper.. "woods, lakes, critters, clean air, open space" i got that, but pasties too is a mystery. And you guys think WE have odd slang! [blink] +
Ya the pellet stoves seem to be gaining in popularity around here, but it will be mainly for the ability to load it up. They will go about a day and half with a big hopper..maybe 2 days? But i can't bring myself to 'buy' pellets at 5 bucks a bag when i have a bush full of wood. Even if i had tons of money, I'd still work the bush cuz otherwise would have to resize the doors around here. One drawback to cutting the sticks long for an ODWF tho is a 3'r of anything hard wood even a fairly small 14" dia tree and qtr split, is still a pretty heavy pc of wood. Super heavy in the bush to load tho full round till it gets split. And 24" + trees, well fuggettabotit, those ones I cut 12 " and split them by hand or with stonehammer/wedge where they fall. Imagine some hard maple...you take a 12lb maul axe. From behind you you swing down on that bugger with all your might (i'm not too tiny) and often it will bounce the axe head right back up off the chunk about 6 to 8 inches. You try to hit it in the same line a few times and if you're lucky, you will hear a slightly dif sound to the hit after about 5 swings or so that has a hint of crack. Then...THEN you think, oh good, it's gonna go without getting out the wedge and stone hammer. It's actually a pretty good cardio workout, but is very very hard on an old body. "Hardwood" is a pretty appropriate label for them. Really nice, hot, clean burn tho with tons of BTU in 'em.
A pasty is sort of like a chicken pot pie, but made with variations on root veggies - potatoes, rutabaga, turnips, onions and some beef. It's dryer than a pot pie, so it won't get all mushy down in the mines. Came over from Cornwall in the UK.
And no, you don't put that poutine gravy stuff on 'em.
In GW news, here's an offshoot of green tech that may interest those of you with bad commutes:
"Hardwood" is a pretty appropriate label for them. Really nice, hot, clean burn tho with tons of BTU in 'em.
I burn mostly eucalyptus here in CA. It is hot burning also. We have live oak that is good when real dry. I get mine from friends when they clear their land or a tree blows down in the wind.
If you buy around here dry split hardwood is $275 a cord and up delivered. Lots of people doing it with the unemployment situation. I enjoy getting out cutting and splitting my firewood. And it is renewable energy.
The same government rules/regs were around when the economy was doing great, so any statement indicating that government rules/regs harm the economy is incorrect.
Most people only whine about rules/regs until someone violates then and it affects them personally, then they complain that the government isn't doing enough to enforce them!
I'm not an advocate of more and more government, but it just seems strange to me how some folks seem to think letting people do what they want will end up with a positive result. There are a lot of "jerry springer" idiots out there that need rules/regs placed on them! Once individuals start acting more responsible, then I'd say that's the time to start reducing the rules/regs.
The same government rules/regs were around when the economy was doing great, so any statement indicating that government rules/regs harm the economy is incorrect.
That is just not true. More regs and rules are added every time you turn around. Many more will go into affect January one 2011. It is not just the Feds doing it. I think CA leads the way in job killing rules and regulations.
An Irvine business relocation specialist has come up with a list of 100 California companies that have expanded elsewhere or pulled up stakes entirely in this decade.
Almost a fourth of the companies have — or should I say “had” — Orange County ties.
“It’s no mystery what causes companies to leave California: High taxes, undue regulation, workers’ comp costs, a legal environment stacked against businesses and lengthy and costly construction permitting requirements,” says list compiler Joseph Vranich, president of JV Executive Consulting Inc. in Irvine.
84 companies added to ‘leaving California’ list July 16th, 2010, 4:00 am · 124 Comments · posted by Jan Norman, small-business columnist
The 84 in six months of 2010 compares to 44 in all of 2009 and 35 from 2006 through 2008, he says, adding that the moves represent $4.7 billion in capital shifted out of California.
“The exodus of capital and jobs has reached such an alarming point that California ought to declare a state of economic emergency just as we have emergencies resulting from floods, fires and earthquakes,” Vranich says. “Raising taxes or creating new regulations should be out of the question.”
He has long insisted that most of the moves are related to California’s “high taxes, undue regulations, excessive fines and fees, high workers’ comp (insurance) costs, a legal environment stacked against businesses and lengthy permitting requirements.”
Most of the new Regs in CA are CO2 and GHG related. These companies listed have at least 1000 employees. We have lost 1000s of small companies. A big share have gone to TX. If my job was impacted by a silly regulation or mandate I would be really screaming.
PS My utilities have been impacted a lot by rules and regulations.
Perhaps in "regulations speak", the real design is that they (policvy makers) want 1,000's of companies to leave. So in that sense side (regulators/companies ) are doing the absolutely CORRECT things !!! ???
I am sure that CA wants all squeaky clean industry. Problem is they are losing all sorts of industry. And it is not being replaced with the elusive green industry they had hoped for. Green is not always clean. And many times it is not a money maker. No profit, no taxes. So we are now $185 billion in debt and going down fast.
There is a solar panel company up the highway a piece that 1. got a half a BILLION dollar (actually 535 M) "stimulus" 2. and a visit from President BO. Not many months after, they had a HUGE lay off (to make use of unemployeement benefits also?) Even with the stimulus and lay offs, they are not even remotely close to being.... ah,... profitable.
Eucalyptus is pretty rare here even if we do have it? Likely too cold more months out of the year, but not sure. We have numerous oaks of course..I have both white and red oak. The red is more predominant in the last 20 or 30 years. The most common (of many hardwoods) I burn are hard (sugar) and soft maple, beech, birch (in white, silver and yellow) iron wood, ash, red oak, and elm seems to be making a comeback since Dutch Elm Disease knocked them all but out many years ago but i don't have any in my bush but my bros has a few 10 miles away.
So is that 275 per face cord or bush cord? I suspect face cord. That would make a bush cord 825. Yes, I too like the renewable energy aspect. I am actually quite a selective cutter. And take mostly junk or wind damaged trees. I will also take an old tree if it looks like its roots will fail and allow it to take out a very healthy 20 or 30 year old little brother beside it. I have considered tapping my sugar maples for maple syrup but should have done it over 20 years ago. I would need to live 3 lives to get some of all the things done i had planned for this lifetime.
The economy hasn't done "great" or even "good" for decades when you look several layers down on why the surface-numbers look good.
The economy may have looked good on the surface for a few years here and there, and even the deficits looked good for a while, but the economy was thriving on the creation of several unsustainable bubbles. People were paper-wealthy due to bubbles like the stock-market bubble and then the housing bubble, and thus tax revenues looked good and the service economy was humming. Manufacturing the true creator of wealth however continued to flow overseas. Our current recovery is quite ordinary given the fact that a couple trillion $'s of extra debt is being added to give us this economy where so many can't find jobs. When this extra money ends ina year or 2 as it has to, or we devalue our $ so much that oil and gas is $6/gal., then you will see that our government and business policies have ben running a Ponzi scheme.
If our federal, state, and local governments make setting up a business that much more expensive and combursome than setting up a business elsewhere in the world, then you will continue to see extremely high unemployment, and 20+% of our population having no idea how to make $.
GW of any kind is like a zit, compared to the problems the body of the U.S. is facing. This is no typical business-cycle we are going thru. Our desire to build a utopian society where everything is taken care of for individuals and beautiful, pastoral America thrives, can not exist when the rest of the world is willing to work and wants the resources that we want to build our utopia.
Whoever believes a CEO when they say they're moving out of CA or some other state (or the USA for that matter) just because of the rules/regs, you are being very naive. Of course CEOs will always say that it’s “because of burden-some rules/regs” because it sounds better than "we can hire cheaper labor elsewhere" or "because all of the tax-free incentives given to us when we first moved our company here are now expired.”
CEOs are interested in profit for their company. If they hire folks where insurance is not required, safety regulations don’t exist, and environmental regulations are non-existent, of course they’ll move there. But I certainly wouldn’t want to be a worker in that situation.
It’s funny how some people believe CEOs of multinational corporations more than their own democratically elected officials. How many times does a company move into a community because the community gives them all sorts of tax breaks and other incentives, but once those incentives expire, the company moves to another community for all their incentives, leaving an abandoned building and unemployed folks behind them.
I agree with Kernick that the economy looked good due to people being “paper-wealthy.” All of the corporate and invdividual debt and the over-inflated housing prices made the economy look better than what it was. Here’s an example where more regulation is needed to keep the amount of individual credit at a reasonable rate to prevent our economy from again becoming an over-inflated “paper-wealthy” economy. I’d rather have very, very slow growth like we have now versus these boom-bubble then bust economies.
China passed us up in putting new vehicles on the road per year. Passed us like we were standind still! Our economy sank under $4 gas in the pre $7.25 minimum wage days. It will be nice having the road to myself if $5 gas comes. No lines at the restaurants that manage to stay open.
How will autos contribute to GW with $5 gas? The Chinese will be able to afford $5 gas? Will the amount of gas sold at $5 fall compared to $3? Will scooters become popular again?
The $5 gas warning tells me not to invest in stocks. Governments will need more tax money to run school busses. Property values now headed for double dip so where's the tax base to pay for schools? Just tack another hunderd billion onto the state's debt?
The genie's out of the bottle with China; I don't know if there is a solution now. We let the genie out when we decided it was okay to educate many Chinese at our universities, let our industries transfer operations where technologies could be copied or stolen, and allowed the Chinese with all the reaons you listed of having lower costs to freely trade with us. The Chinese now have the technical know-how, the capital from years of lop-sided trade, and still have a large low-paid work-force.
I saw an article in the last day or 2, which said that China is now the #1 importer/user of oil. Yes between the Chinese factories needing oil for energy and plastics, they now are putting more vehicles on the road each year then we are. As I said over the years here, GW if it is occurring due to CO2, is not going to be stopped even if the U.S. and Europe completely went to EV's in the next decade.
Bob - consider that the slow, slow growth we are "enjoying" today, is only because of the extraordinary stimulus. If you're household is spending $5,000/month while you're only making $4,000/month, you're only doing okay because you're borrowing to sustain your lifestyle. How long can that last? Since a few years ago when the first stimulus checks were sent out under Bush, and then the bank bailouts, GM's bailout, the $750B stimulus, cutting interest rates near 0%, the Fed's $600B bond buyback, the $850B 2011 tax cuts - these are the reasons we're seeing any growth. They are not sustainable; and just like when you stop giving a heroin addict more heroin, there's going to be hell-to-pay when these stimulus are stopped. My concern is we keep making the problem worse. Why? Because no politician or political party wants to "Be There" when the heroin is turned off. Stimulus would have worked, and worked in the past when stimulus $ was spent in the country. Where does a lot of all the money from these stimulus go - well look at the labels on the stuff we buy, or the oil we put in our furnaces and vehicles.
We let the genie out of the bottle when the cowardly criminal Kissinger cabal of that era worked so hard to open the place for the profit of a few. The ball started rolling around 40 years ago - giving them most favored nation trading status and allowing them to compete on a level playing field on our soil have just been nails in a coffin. One of the worst mistakes in modern history, if not in all of western civilization.
They are today a shameless polluter, social criminal, and nobody will sanction for either in the name of "free trade". We can only hope internal strife destroys the bubble...I still don't see much innovation from there either.
And yes, no matter what we do, their contribution to any idea of "manmade global warming" will outweigh any pointlessly expensive cuts we make. Of course, when an erupting volcano lets out as much junk as a zillion cars...
Kernick, what about the trillions of dollars in cash sitting in corporate coffers? Markets are driven by confidence and perceptions of confidence. When the confidence dried up, corporations hang on to their cash, so that's the reason for the government stimulus...to fill the void until the corporate confidence comes back and starts using their cash to buy, expand and hire. I guess I'm more of an optimist. I think the economy will gradually get better. My only concern is that when the economy is stronger, more won't be done at that point to reduce the deficit.
And rising gas prices are a good sign because it means that the economy is getting better, hence the increased demand for oil, which increase the price. I bought a Prius last summer and one of the reasons was that I figured that as soon as the economy turned around, gas prices would get back above $3/gal and probably higher. To me I don't know why anyone would by an Accord, Camry, Malibu or some other similary sized sedan when you can buy a Prius that gets double the average MPG for the same price and provides about the same interior space (a little less hiproom but more cargo space).
So what we're really doing when the federal government spends money it doesn't have, or when the consumer spends that money, is MAINLY stimulating someone else's economy. THAT is why the stimuli have not worked for our country. If we made what we bought in this country, as we almost exclusively did decades ago, stimulus would work.
Our government right now is close to an oligarchy. It is elected and supported through contributions, lobbyists, and revolving-door jobs by the wealthy and powerful corporations. BTW - I'm not some radical, just a 50 year old engineer who goes to work everyday and was typically a Republican voter. If you want a perfect example on how things work in D.C. do a little investigation into how Dan Quayle former V.P. just happened to end up in Cerberus - which owned Chrysler, and then how the U.S. government helped Cerberus walk-away from Chrysler virtually unaffected by Chrysler's bankruptcy, allowing the U.S. taxpayer to pay for what should have been Cerberus's losses. The rules were written to protect Cerberus, and the wealthy.
If you want to learn about the financial bailouts that we've just gone thru, I'm starting to read a book called "13 Bankers". I hate to ruin your optimism, but the reality is that the wealthy who run this government probably really don't care whether the common U.S. citizen is hungry, because they are interested in their corporations making $ whether it be in the U.S, China, India, Europe or wherever. Our politicians will only do enough for the common-man to get reelected, and keep the people from picking up pitchforks and torches and heading to D.C.
Also - rising gas prices are due to 1) increased GLOBAL demand. China now imports more oil than the U.S. 2) the Federal Reserve's QE2 is devaluing the $. When the $ declines everything based on $'s goes up. Rising gas prices is not a sign of a good economy in this case, no more than the rising price of orange juice means there's GW in Florida.
At $3.00 per gal, if you drive 12,000 miles a year you would save about $600. annually if you drove a Prius vs an Accord, etc. Based on av. 30 mpg for the Prius and 20 mpg for the Accord. Just round numbers here.
Then factor in that the electricity is not free, say $100. a year, and the fact that someone (probably you due to depreciation) will have to pay for those batteries to be replaced, plus you are probably paying a 3 or 4 thousand dollar premium for the Prius over a comparable ICE. It ends up being a losing proposition for you.
You will get the satisfaction of saying, "Look how smart, responsible, and green I am!" But the people who have done the math will just shrug.
You pegged it Kernick. I don't expect to see US go under 8% unemployment in the future. We have shot our wad and it is slow deterioration from here on out. More GHG regulations being pushed as we speak will not help our economy at all. People are not going to go green until it is profitable.
Buying a Prius as a hedge against high gas prices is OK. A Fit or Yaris would be less per mile. If I cannot afford to drive a PU or SUV I guess I will stay at home by the fire. Something that was not needed in CA until this mini ice age came upon US. My utilities make my gas bill look like chump change. My water bill is higher than my gas card bill. Fortunately I have a septic tank or the sewer bill would double my water bill.
Obama sitting on the Beach in Hawaii, has not got a clue about what is going on with the climate. He is still trying to circumvent the Constitution on Cap n Trade. He probably had that money spent when the weather went South on him and Al Gore.
Yes we agree the future is not too bright - if you're not among the wealthy, or have a guaranteed public job, pensions, and benefits - because of the policies we've set over decades. You'll note that one of the very, very few areas that is thriving in the U.S. is around D.C!
My state - NH, has a $60M budget shortfall as the budget was based on selling undefined real estate assets. Well guess what only 2 properties totalling $400K were marketed. Next year the state is looking at a 8% deficit because the federal spigot is turning-off, and the state can no longer fund the utopian society they wanted to construct. BTW - I hear we're 1 of the best managed states!
Sorry to hear about things in CA. I'm expecting you to write soon that you've given up, and put the house for sale. But then where in this "Roman Empire" do you go, to escape the decline.
We'll be reducing our CO2 emissions with this decline, especially when the government can no longer inject their drug - stimulus into the economy, when they've shot their last wad, and the world won't loan us any more. We'll keep making it more difficult to start or expand a business here in the U.S. because of ever-increasing regulations and taxes, we'll all live on stimulus borrowed $, and there won't be any good-paying jobs outside of government.
Sorry to hear about things in CA. I'm expecting you to write soon that you've given up, and put the house for sale. But then where in this "Roman Empire" do you go, to escape the decline.
That is a good question. Now that the mini ice age is upon US, CA has little to offer. I was hoping that GW would make San Diego a tropical paradise. Instead we end up with stinking Seattle type weather. Cold and raining. We have already passed our yearly average and are not half way through the year. Plus this is not our rainy season. We are currently 400%+ of our normal for the year to date. Adding to that misery, it was the great weather that made housing so expensive. So our place is worth less. If Moonbeam has his way and overturns Prop 13, you will see a mass exodus that is of biblical proportions. Most retired people will not be able to afford the huge increase in property taxes. A few of them I know have mortgaged their homes to the hilt and bought fancy Motorhomes. One of our neighbors just let his home go back to the bank and drove off in a coach that had to cost close to half a million. I guess they will just follow the sun around the country side.
I got to go stoke up the fire. Hope I have enough fire wood to last out this current storm. 45 degrees and raining is not my idea of great weather. Probably the Chinese salting our clouds. :sick:
Houdini... An accord will average about 25mpg and a Prius 45mpg. At 12,000 miles at $3/gal = about a $640 savings per year with the Prius. You can get either car similarly equiped for about the same price, so there is no "premium" for buying the Prius. And if you do some research, you'll find that the batteries last well over 150,000 miles, and then it's not the battery that needs replacing, but only specific cells, which may be only a few hundred dollars to replace. So the maintenance/repair costs of the Prius as compared to other sedans is the same, or more probably less due to the reliability stats of the Prius. On top of this is the fact that the car emits less pollution. So in the end, it's a winning proposition to me personally in terms of gas savings (especially if gas prices continue to rise) and a winning proposition to the global environment due to less pollution and oil being used.
Some of the posters here would have been the same ones jumping out of windows during the Great Depressions. We still have over 90% of the people working. Sales are up so someone has money to spend.
I look around and compare things to the 1980s. Back then I remember folks driving older cars (how often do you see someone stranded or broke down on the highway any more). Cars are much safer today too. Today everyone seems to have the latest cell phone, laptop and computer. Houses are bigger than they used to be. In communities, parks are more well equipped, as are the schools and libraries. It used to be expensive to call long distance, now you can do it free on Skype. Airline travel, while more compfortable back then, is cheap today when accounting for inflation.
Maybe that's why I'm an optimist. People today have much more than they did 30 years ago but either don't realize it or just keep wanting more no matter what they have.
Actually that is a good attitude. However the so called "great depression" had 24% unemployment so 76% were employed. Also the 10% current unemployment masks the majority of folks who have stopped looking. So really it is closer to 15%, to much higher. This does not count the folks who consider themselves under utilized. A Ph'd doing Masters work for example.
Last report I read only about 62% of those capable of working have a job in this country. That erroneous 10% unemployment figure leaves a lot of people out that are no longer even looking for a job. I know a bunch that just sponge off mom and dad and or collect welfare.
Sales are up so someone has money to spend.
Retail sales down 4.1 percent last week: report REUTERS — 11:24 AM ET 12/29/10
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Retail sales fell 4.1 percent in the week ending on Christmas Day,
I look around and compare things to the 1980s.
We do have it better now than in the early 1980s. That is if you have a good job. With several million unemployed, if it were not for the largesse of Congress via our future tax dollars, things would be much worse for the unemployed.
Today everyone seems to have the latest cell phone, laptop and computer.
That is true. As fintail will be quick to point out. If the masses did not have lots of cheap toys from China they would be rioting and chopping off the heads of the wealthy elitists. The same wealthy that do not realize we are in a recession as they are making money hand over fist from the additional profits garnered by shipping jobs off shore. And they have the perfect excuse. The USA is no longer business friendly. Especially states like CA.
People can play with the numbers all they want, but a person with a PhD doing Master's Degree level work is still employed. By that logic everyone with any degree who's not working at their "degree-level" is now somehow unemployed?? Doesn't make sense to me. A college degree doesn't guarantee any particular job. If we were back in the Depression, today's pundits would say the "real" unemployment figure was 80% !!
I'm not saying things are great, but let's try to put things in a little perspective. Just trying to go a little closer to the center
According to your logic then those claiming 80% UNEMPLOYEMENT (during the depression) would be WRONG. So perhaps you did not see the not so subtle shading I did in my post, aka this does NOT include...., that was in response to yours.
I just mean that when people throw out different numbers using different definitions of unemployed, under-employed, etc it makes it difficult to make comparisions to the past. Even if the government figures aren't perfect, since they're calculated in the same manner each time you can at least analyze upward and downward trends. I'll know the economy is really hurting when I see the mall parking lots empty the next time I drive by and see folks standing in line for soup like in the 30's.
BTW...what's all this have to do with GW? :P Even if there is no GW, driving more fuel efficient cars is still better for air quality and reducing our dependence on middle east oil. If we didn't need middle east oil, all of the conflicts of the past in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait would be as significant as conflicts in Africa that we tend to ignore.
Let's just say that the discussion of "Are automobiles a major cause of global warming" has very little to do with the current state of the global economy. Even if there was no evidence of GW due to pollution from cars, there would still be rules/regs to reduce emission levels purely for health reasons.
Plus the new CAFE standards will actually save money for consumers in the long run through paying less at the pumps, even if the new CAFE standards does add costs to the initial purchase. Again...nothing to do with GW, simply to provide cost savings to the consumer and reduce the amount of oil needed to get from point a to point b.
The new 2012 (upcoming) 35 mpg fuel standards will save money for consumers in the long run? Actually it will be one of the spring boards to radically INCREASE the cost of automobile operation/s and factorially !! So if you are bugging out, then this is where I would disagree. If you'd like to discuss it; hang around. All the old one (25 mpg) really did was to give US market drivers the chance to pay far more per mile driven than even European drivers. So that I am not vague 6.50 per gal in Europe vs 3.23 gal in the current US market, with the option to pay 12 to 16 per gal (as measured per mile driven/work). Indeed the option to pay more will stay and many more options will indeed be ADDED.
It started out with the debate over regulations that kill jobs. Some here like to confuse toxic auto emissions with CO2. It is the regulations of CO2 for the GW boogie man argument that is a big job killer in CA and other regressive states.
I'll know the economy is really hurting when I see the mall parking lots empty the next time I drive by and see folks standing in line for soup like in the 30's.
Here you go thanks to Obama's trying to circumvent the Congress and make his own GW rules and Regs.
Now actually the GW folks could learn from this, but it is STARTING to come into consciousness that major parts of the higher education system will have to undergo MASSIVE changes. I do not wish to get political about this, but the easiest to graphically see/demonstrate are professional schools, like (LOL) law school. Basically the long/short of this is IF one does not pass the BAR examination AND get a top 3% of jobs, at various levels, these resources, time, effort etc., etc.,will have been to continues to be a WASTE.
LOL. The funny part is GB and BO are two prime examples. One is Harvard B school, the other is Harvard Law school.!!!???? One is a long vilified dunder head, the other is one in making. (neither characterization/s is/are my personal sentiment/s)
The state of the economy has a direct impact on gasoline usage and emissions here in the U.S. in several ways. First and foremost the condition of the economy drives how many new vehicles are purchased - meaning how many old vehicles are retired vs. having the latest technology of emissions and hopefully higher mpg. There is a big difference between the 16M that were sold several years ago, and the 11M sold this last year. Second the economy affects the amount of driving everyone does. The less people employed the less commuting there is, and probably the less recreational driving there is. I saw a report the other day that the number of miles people drive here in the U.S. is down like 5% from the peak a few years ago. Third if you're not getting much of a raise, or are worried about your job, people are less likely to stretch for things that cause more fuel to be burned - specifically I bet trailer/camper sales have been down to middle-class folks. And for people with a camper, some may change from a car to a truck to pull it. Fourth as we said, the Federal Reserve's policies are devaluing the $ relative to the rest of the globe. This means that oil/gasoline become more expensive. More expensive gasoline means less will be used here. (Though that simply may allow the supply to go elsewhere around the globe).
Also I'm not really sure why you're concerned with pollution from personal autos. From what I know the emissions equipment on autos in the last 20 years has cleaned up the pollution issue. The main sources of air pollution from vehicles today come from 18-wheelers, buses and construction equipment; along with all the lawnmowers and such that people run in the summer. If you look into why Southern Cal has air pollution (a report I did for a class) you'll find that the majority of the pollution is caused by the seaport - idling diesel ships, cranes, and the trains and trucks that take the cargo away. And that again is a result of our economic policies of how much we buy, and how we ship things in from 1/2 a world away, rather than allowing our society to make things locally. Why aren't your Prius's batteries made here in the U.S.?
I would agree. I just recently was summoned did and passed a CA state "SMOG ONLY" test station emissions test on a 17 year old vehicle @ 185,000 miles, 15 mpg, doing 20,000 miles oil change intervals. To make a long story short, the tested for emissions were ZERO's. So while in effect, it does pay upwards of 12 per gal per mile driven, it is still cost effective to drive it in relation to almost any new and "better" compact car one would care to mention, as long as I keep the fuel costs under 450. per month. @ 3.23 per gal/15 mpg =140 gal * 15 = 2,100 miles per month. That is 25,200 miles per year. The average American drivers miles is between 12,000 to 15,000 miles per year. So as you can see over 17 years the actual is below both @ 10,888 miles per year.
Comments
The furnace is probably well insulated to the outside and the heat is blown is blown in the house thru a duct.
I like a little of the wood-smoke smell, but in tight neighborhoods, the smoke stacks should be higher.
Last night and today we got about 12" of snow. I wish those people down in Florida and the Carolinas would keep their cold weather. About the only people who like the cold are the skiiers. The rest of us burn a lot of fossil fuel in our houses and vehicles to combat this climate.
But in the case of an outdoor furnace, the solutions seems fairly obvious that instead of banning them, impose a regulation that requires the chimneys to have large enough structural base to properly support 15 to 20 feet of chimney. It would definitely add cost, but so what. Expecting your neighbour to have to constantly breath their smoke when they are trying to enjoy a beautiful autumn afternoon BBQ on the deck, isn't reasonable either.
As for the attraction, I can offer some input since I am considering the investment of one myself.
here are the pros:
- you can load very long logs, so when cutting you can do basically half the number of cuts which saves time, gas, wear n tear on the saw and your back.
- you can load enough wood to heat your home and go away for a weekend and not have to hurry back to stoke the furnace. - that one is huge and is one of my primary reasons to anti up the big ticket cost of one
- insurance companies do not nail you with big premiums due to heating with wood. That also adds up although if you are considered a low risk customer, no previous claims of any sort, then it would take a lifetime to pay for the furnace at todays rates. Of course we know that fraud and abuse/negligence will do nothing but continue to raise insurance premiums, so as years go by it will become a more significant savings.
- they are cleaner - no matter how careful you are, there is dust associated with removing ash from the fire box, and the dirt of the wood itself - plus, while not much more than an inconvenience, you will probably see a spider population increase if you start bringing wood into the basement/home.
- like an interior wood stove, they are dead quiet conductive heat that is a joy to have as opposed to forced air oil or gas furnaces. - but the ODWF is actually better in that, you can space heat any area of the home you want (usually with baseboard heaters in front of each window, which is common practice with any coolant based heating system
- there are optional hot water boiler accessories that allow you to heat your household hot water instead of using gas/oil or electric water heaters, so quite the savings in the winter months. - that is another biggy for me altho i am also investigating a boiler type system for my wood stove i use now. Expansion reservoirs that allow the heated water to always have incoming replacement water, yet operate as a 'sealed' system makes things more complicated. And of course the easiest style would be one that wraps the stove, so it's not gonna be all that great a looker..
- you may have to go outside to fuel it, but it is a once a day or even two day affair...no biggy
- if you are built at ground level on a cement slab, then installing plumbing heatlines embedded in the concrete acts as one huge floor radiant radiator that heats the entire house evenly from the floor up in every room. Never cold feet..
- and of course you could expand on this with the same principle to heat a garage, workshop, or huge barn if you have a farm.
- and there are probably a few other pros that i can't think of right now..
Cons:
- cost - this is a big one
- backyard smoke with the low chimneys
- use of real estate if you don't have unlimited space - naturally they are huge compared to the sq footage of a wood stove indoors
- can't really cook on top of one in a power outage
- outdoor furnaces rely on electricity in two ways. Both the blower for the firebox use an electrical fan and of course the coolant circulation pump uses electricity. I think there are optional 12 volt backup power devices available tho. While the electricity usage cost is not excessive, it becomes an issue if u suffer power outages often, but usually this is a rare occurrence.
but that's about it.
So sign me up for one..except you can buy a small 1 year old car for what they cost depending on the size you need. Here i have seen prices range from 5000 to 12000 bucks. Ouch..
My gas forced air is plumbed with a wood stove. It should come in handy if we get an extended power outage and the gas shuts down. Of course, it's plumbed into the vents, and if the power is off, the fan hooked to the wood stove won't work. But we can survive in the basement ok.
The outdoor furnaces really aren't cheap, (neither is wood for that matter) and there seems to be quite a few abandoned around here. Don't know if it's because they get a lot of wear and tear out in the elements or if people just get tired of feeding them. My luck, the furnace would go out at 4 am in a raging blizzard.
I've almost always had forced air and I've never really liked it. Luckily this house has the quietest system we've ever had.
I do know that inferior quality units that cheaped out on very little or no SSteel, would actually rust out, so not all of those abandoned units would be worth pursuing. Fireboxes left with damp old ashes can be very corrosive so would accelerate the corrosion process too.
Out of curiosity, what is the charge for dried/seasoned cord wood there?
Bush cord being 3 rows of 16"x 4' high x 8' long.
A face cord is one row.
And do they deliver always or sell for less if you pick it up? They do both here. Pay a lot more for delivery included. Astute buyers, buy green and store and season their own wood a year or 18 months in advance, and can save about a third/cord. It is a very tough way to make a tiny wage on if you are small scale such as myself. It can be healthy but also very dangerous work. I watched my father get killed right in front of me by a widow-maker when i was 13. To this day, there isn't a single tree no matter the size, that i walk up to and survey where it wants to go and what i must do to make it go elsewhere, that i don't relive that very tragic day. The lesson must be to learn from our elder's mistakes...altho to be fair to Dad as he was extremely conscientious, in his case he would have had to carry an extension ladder out to the bush, climb up 20 feet and brush some fresh fallen snow from a 6" maple branch base to witness that it wasn't really attached and was resting, balanced, on the tree he was cutting down. So today, I look for stuff like that and try to never make assumptions about anything in the bush.
Ok, i sorta got off topic, unless the consensus is that wood smoke contributes to global warming as much as IC engine exhaust does.. haha
But that is a whole other topic, and one that ignorance often prevails in also. FWIW, newer type efficient firebox wood heaters and cook stoves, if installed correctly, burn a LOT cleaner than in years past.
There's plenty of timber around here but I haven't priced it. I got around 3.5 cords of nice red fir for the Boise decade for the indoor wood stove and after it got used up along year 7, I removed the stove. Didn't much like fooling with it, although it's a nice radiant heat when it's running. Folks we get beef from have an old working wood cookstove in their kitchen that's lovely to sit around. But it's just too much hassle compared to simply paying the natural gas bill and turning up the thermostat (and replacing the filters and cleaning the humidifier). But I'm lazy.
Come to think of it, there is a spare woodstove in the basement in addition to the one that's hooked up to the vents. I was going to sell it but I might get ambitious enough to get a sauna going.
I did wonder what a face cord was; lots of those for sale. None of the outdoor furnaces look big enough to handle that big of a log so I must be missing something.
That's terrible about your dad. Dangerous occupation. :sick:
It could be your ODWF are smaller there? The one's I've seen at Pioneer Shows and such up here, take 32 to 48" logs i think. 3' for sure tho.
More info on a face cord...
A true FC is 16'' stick, but they are still sold and charged as full width even if the order is for 12 to 14" sticks cuz many small stoves only take a foot long log. There may be less wood weight / cord, but there is still the extra handling, cutting and splitting so no deals are ever offered for a shorter wood order.
Ya, thanks...it was many years ago...still miss him tho.. He was a great man. Arms like iron. Amazing welder/mechanic and nature lover. Taken too soon.
I might Google the ODWF down around your area and compare to up here. what is UP?
You confused me a bit about the face cords. I was thinking you'd buy the 8' logs and shove them into the furnace. Could work with a conveyor, like the pellet stoves.
Natural gas must be cleaner though. At least once it gets to my house.
Glad ya gave me more than Yooper.. "woods, lakes, critters, clean air, open space" i got that, but pasties too is a mystery. And you guys think WE have odd slang! [blink] +
Ya the pellet stoves seem to be gaining in popularity around here, but it will be mainly for the ability to load it up. They will go about a day and half with a big hopper..maybe 2 days? But i can't bring myself to 'buy' pellets at 5 bucks a bag when i have a bush full of wood. Even if i had tons of money, I'd still work the bush cuz otherwise would have to resize the doors around here. One drawback to cutting the sticks long for an ODWF tho is a 3'r of anything hard wood even a fairly small 14" dia tree and qtr split, is still a pretty heavy pc of wood. Super heavy in the bush to load tho full round till it gets split. And 24" + trees, well fuggettabotit, those ones I cut 12 " and split them by hand or with stonehammer/wedge where they fall. Imagine some hard maple...you take a 12lb maul axe. From behind you you swing down on that bugger with all your might (i'm not too tiny) and often it will bounce the axe head right back up off the chunk about 6 to 8 inches. You try to hit it in the same line a few times and if you're lucky, you will hear a slightly dif sound to the hit after about 5 swings or so that has a hint of crack. Then...THEN you think, oh good, it's gonna go without getting out the wedge and stone hammer. It's actually a pretty good cardio workout, but is very very hard on an old body. "Hardwood" is a pretty appropriate label for them. Really nice, hot, clean burn tho with tons of BTU in 'em.
And no, you don't put that poutine gravy stuff on 'em.
In GW news, here's an offshoot of green tech that may interest those of you with bad commutes:
Ford to Put Start-Stop Technology in Conventional Cars, CUVs (Green Car Advisor)
I burn mostly eucalyptus here in CA. It is hot burning also. We have live oak that is good when real dry. I get mine from friends when they clear their land or a tree blows down in the wind.
If you buy around here dry split hardwood is $275 a cord and up delivered. Lots of people doing it with the unemployment situation. I enjoy getting out cutting and splitting my firewood. And it is renewable energy.
Most people only whine about rules/regs until someone violates then and it affects them personally, then they complain that the government isn't doing enough to enforce them!
I'm not an advocate of more and more government, but it just seems strange to me how some folks seem to think letting people do what they want will end up with a positive result. There are a lot of "jerry springer" idiots out there that need rules/regs placed on them! Once individuals start acting more responsible, then I'd say that's the time to start reducing the rules/regs.
That is just not true. More regs and rules are added every time you turn around. Many more will go into affect January one 2011. It is not just the Feds doing it. I think CA leads the way in job killing rules and regulations.
An Irvine business relocation specialist has come up with a list of 100 California companies that have expanded elsewhere or pulled up stakes entirely in this decade.
Almost a fourth of the companies have — or should I say “had” — Orange County ties.
“It’s no mystery what causes companies to leave California: High taxes, undue regulation, workers’ comp costs, a legal environment stacked against businesses and lengthy and costly construction permitting requirements,” says list compiler Joseph Vranich, president of JV Executive Consulting Inc. in Irvine.
http://jan.ocregister.com/2010/02/24/list-names-100-companies-leaving-california- - /31805/
84 companies added to ‘leaving California’ list
July 16th, 2010, 4:00 am · 124 Comments · posted by Jan Norman, small-business columnist
The 84 in six months of 2010 compares to 44 in all of 2009 and 35 from 2006 through 2008, he says, adding that the moves represent $4.7 billion in capital shifted out of California.
“The exodus of capital and jobs has reached such an alarming point that California ought to declare a state of economic emergency just as we have emergencies resulting from floods, fires and earthquakes,” Vranich says. “Raising taxes or creating new regulations should be out of the question.”
He has long insisted that most of the moves are related to California’s “high taxes, undue regulations, excessive fines and fees, high workers’ comp (insurance) costs, a legal environment stacked against businesses and lengthy permitting requirements.”
http://jan.ocregister.com/2010/07/16/84-companies-added-to-leaving-california-li- - st/41399/
Most of the new Regs in CA are CO2 and GHG related. These companies listed have at least 1000 employees. We have lost 1000s of small companies. A big share have gone to TX. If my job was impacted by a silly regulation or mandate I would be really screaming.
PS
My utilities have been impacted a lot by rules and regulations.
The most common (of many hardwoods) I burn are hard (sugar) and soft maple, beech, birch (in white, silver and yellow) iron wood, ash, red oak, and elm seems to be making a comeback since Dutch Elm Disease knocked them all but out many years ago but i don't have any in my bush but my bros has a few 10 miles away.
So is that 275 per face cord or bush cord? I suspect face cord. That would make a bush cord 825.
Yes, I too like the renewable energy aspect. I am actually quite a selective cutter. And take mostly junk or wind damaged trees. I will also take an old tree if it looks like its roots will fail and allow it to take out a very healthy 20 or 30 year old little brother beside it. I have considered tapping my sugar maples for maple syrup but should have done it over 20 years ago. I would need to live 3 lives to get some of all the things done i had planned for this lifetime.
The economy may have looked good on the surface for a few years here and there, and even the deficits looked good for a while, but the economy was thriving on the creation of several unsustainable bubbles. People were paper-wealthy due to bubbles like the stock-market bubble and then the housing bubble, and thus tax revenues looked good and the service economy was humming. Manufacturing the true creator of wealth however continued to flow overseas. Our current recovery is quite ordinary given the fact that a couple trillion $'s of extra debt is being added to give us this economy where so many can't find jobs. When this extra money ends ina year or 2 as it has to, or we devalue our $ so much that oil and gas is $6/gal., then you will see that our government and business policies have ben running a Ponzi scheme.
If our federal, state, and local governments make setting up a business that much more expensive and combursome than setting up a business elsewhere in the world, then you will continue to see extremely high unemployment, and 20+% of our population having no idea how to make $.
GW of any kind is like a zit, compared to the problems the body of the U.S. is facing. This is no typical business-cycle we are going thru. Our desire to build a utopian society where everything is taken care of for individuals and beautiful, pastoral America thrives, can not exist when the rest of the world is willing to work and wants the resources that we want to build our utopia.
CEOs are interested in profit for their company. If they hire folks where insurance is not required, safety regulations don’t exist, and environmental regulations are non-existent, of course they’ll move there. But I certainly wouldn’t want to be a worker in that situation.
It’s funny how some people believe CEOs of multinational corporations more than their own democratically elected officials. How many times does a company move into a community because the community gives them all sorts of tax breaks and other incentives, but once those incentives expire, the company moves to another community for all their incentives, leaving an abandoned building and unemployed folks behind them.
I agree with Kernick that the economy looked good due to people being “paper-wealthy.” All of the corporate and invdividual debt and the over-inflated housing prices made the economy look better than what it was. Here’s an example where more regulation is needed to keep the amount of individual credit at a reasonable rate to prevent our economy from again becoming an over-inflated “paper-wealthy” economy. I’d rather have very, very slow growth like we have now versus these boom-bubble then bust economies.
How will autos contribute to GW with $5 gas? The Chinese will be able to afford $5 gas? Will the amount of gas sold at $5 fall compared to $3? Will scooters become popular again?
The $5 gas warning tells me not to invest in stocks. Governments will need more tax money to run school busses. Property values now headed for double dip so where's the tax base to pay for schools? Just tack another hunderd billion onto the state's debt?
I saw an article in the last day or 2, which said that China is now the #1 importer/user of oil. Yes between the Chinese factories needing oil for energy and plastics, they now are putting more vehicles on the road each year then we are. As I said over the years here, GW if it is occurring due to CO2, is not going to be stopped even if the U.S. and Europe completely went to EV's in the next decade.
Bob - consider that the slow, slow growth we are "enjoying" today, is only because of the extraordinary stimulus. If you're household is spending $5,000/month while you're only making $4,000/month, you're only doing okay because you're borrowing to sustain your lifestyle. How long can that last? Since a few years ago when the first stimulus checks were sent out under Bush, and then the bank bailouts, GM's bailout, the $750B stimulus, cutting interest rates near 0%, the Fed's $600B bond buyback, the $850B 2011 tax cuts - these are the reasons we're seeing any growth. They are not sustainable; and just like when you stop giving a heroin addict more heroin, there's going to be hell-to-pay when these stimulus are stopped. My concern is we keep making the problem worse. Why? Because no politician or political party wants to "Be There" when the heroin is turned off. Stimulus would have worked, and worked in the past when stimulus $ was spent in the country. Where does a lot of all the money from these stimulus go - well look at the labels on the stuff we buy, or the oil we put in our furnaces and vehicles.
They are today a shameless polluter, social criminal, and nobody will sanction for either in the name of "free trade". We can only hope internal strife destroys the bubble...I still don't see much innovation from there either.
And yes, no matter what we do, their contribution to any idea of "manmade global warming" will outweigh any pointlessly expensive cuts we make. Of course, when an erupting volcano lets out as much junk as a zillion cars...
And rising gas prices are a good sign because it means that the economy is getting better, hence the increased demand for oil, which increase the price. I bought a Prius last summer and one of the reasons was that I figured that as soon as the economy turned around, gas prices would get back above $3/gal and probably higher. To me I don't know why anyone would by an Accord, Camry, Malibu or some other similary sized sedan when you can buy a Prius that gets double the average MPG for the same price and provides about the same interior space (a little less hiproom but more cargo space).
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2010-12-28-jobs-overseas_N.htm?loc=interst- - itialskip
So what we're really doing when the federal government spends money it doesn't have, or when the consumer spends that money, is MAINLY stimulating someone else's economy. THAT is why the stimuli have not worked for our country. If we made what we bought in this country, as we almost exclusively did decades ago, stimulus would work.
Our government right now is close to an oligarchy. It is elected and supported through contributions, lobbyists, and revolving-door jobs by the wealthy and powerful corporations. BTW - I'm not some radical, just a 50 year old engineer who goes to work everyday and was typically a Republican voter. If you want a perfect example on how things work in D.C. do a little investigation into how Dan Quayle former V.P. just happened to end up in Cerberus - which owned Chrysler, and then how the U.S. government helped Cerberus walk-away from Chrysler virtually unaffected by Chrysler's bankruptcy, allowing the U.S. taxpayer to pay for what should have been Cerberus's losses. The rules were written to protect Cerberus, and the wealthy.
If you want to learn about the financial bailouts that we've just gone thru, I'm starting to read a book called "13 Bankers". I hate to ruin your optimism, but the reality is that the wealthy who run this government probably really don't care whether the common U.S. citizen is hungry, because they are interested in their corporations making $ whether it be in the U.S, China, India, Europe or wherever. Our politicians will only do enough for the common-man to get reelected, and keep the people from picking up pitchforks and torches and heading to D.C.
Also - rising gas prices are due to 1) increased GLOBAL demand. China now imports more oil than the U.S. 2) the Federal Reserve's QE2 is devaluing the $. When the $ declines everything based on $'s goes up. Rising gas prices is not a sign of a good economy in this case, no more than the rising price of orange juice means there's GW in Florida.
Then factor in that the electricity is not free, say $100. a year, and the fact that someone (probably you due to depreciation) will have to pay for those batteries to be replaced, plus you are probably paying a 3 or 4 thousand dollar premium for the Prius over a comparable ICE. It ends up being a losing proposition for you.
You will get the satisfaction of saying, "Look how smart, responsible, and green I am!" But the people who have done the math will just shrug.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Buying a Prius as a hedge against high gas prices is OK. A Fit or Yaris would be less per mile. If I cannot afford to drive a PU or SUV I guess I will stay at home by the fire. Something that was not needed in CA until this mini ice age came upon US. My utilities make my gas bill look like chump change. My water bill is higher than my gas card bill. Fortunately I have a septic tank or the sewer bill would double my water bill.
Obama sitting on the Beach in Hawaii, has not got a clue about what is going on with the climate. He is still trying to circumvent the Constitution on Cap n Trade. He probably had that money spent when the weather went South on him and Al Gore.
My state - NH, has a $60M budget shortfall as the budget was based on selling undefined real estate assets. Well guess what only 2 properties totalling $400K were marketed. Next year the state is looking at a 8% deficit because the federal spigot is turning-off, and the state can no longer fund the utopian society they wanted to construct. BTW - I hear we're 1 of the best managed states!
Sorry to hear about things in CA. I'm expecting you to write soon that you've given up, and put the house for sale. But then where in this "Roman Empire" do you go, to escape the decline.
We'll be reducing our CO2 emissions with this decline, especially when the government can no longer inject their drug - stimulus into the economy, when they've shot their last wad, and the world won't loan us any more. We'll keep making it more difficult to start or expand a business here in the U.S. because of ever-increasing regulations and taxes, we'll all live on stimulus borrowed $, and there won't be any good-paying jobs outside of government.
That is a good question. Now that the mini ice age is upon US, CA has little to offer. I was hoping that GW would make San Diego a tropical paradise. Instead we end up with stinking Seattle type weather. Cold and raining. We have already passed our yearly average and are not half way through the year. Plus this is not our rainy season. We are currently 400%+ of our normal for the year to date. Adding to that misery, it was the great weather that made housing so expensive. So our place is worth less. If Moonbeam has his way and overturns Prop 13, you will see a mass exodus that is of biblical proportions. Most retired people will not be able to afford the huge increase in property taxes. A few of them I know have mortgaged their homes to the hilt and bought fancy Motorhomes. One of our neighbors just let his home go back to the bank and drove off in a coach that had to cost close to half a million. I guess they will just follow the sun around the country side.
I got to go stoke up the fire. Hope I have enough fire wood to last out this current storm. 45 degrees and raining is not my idea of great weather. Probably the Chinese salting our clouds. :sick:
I look around and compare things to the 1980s. Back then I remember folks driving older cars (how often do you see someone stranded or broke down on the highway any more). Cars are much safer today too. Today everyone seems to have the latest cell phone, laptop and computer. Houses are bigger than they used to be. In communities, parks are more well equipped, as are the schools and libraries. It used to be expensive to call long distance, now you can do it free on Skype. Airline travel, while more compfortable back then, is cheap today when accounting for inflation.
Maybe that's why I'm an optimist. People today have much more than they did 30 years ago but either don't realize it or just keep wanting more no matter what they have.
We still have over 90% of the people working.
Last report I read only about 62% of those capable of working have a job in this country. That erroneous 10% unemployment figure leaves a lot of people out that are no longer even looking for a job. I know a bunch that just sponge off mom and dad and or collect welfare.
Sales are up so someone has money to spend.
Retail sales down 4.1 percent last week: report
REUTERS — 11:24 AM ET 12/29/10
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Retail sales fell 4.1 percent in the week ending on Christmas Day,
I look around and compare things to the 1980s.
We do have it better now than in the early 1980s. That is if you have a good job. With several million unemployed, if it were not for the largesse of Congress via our future tax dollars, things would be much worse for the unemployed.
Today everyone seems to have the latest cell phone, laptop and computer.
That is true. As fintail will be quick to point out. If the masses did not have lots of cheap toys from China they would be rioting and chopping off the heads of the wealthy elitists. The same wealthy that do not realize we are in a recession as they are making money hand over fist from the additional profits garnered by shipping jobs off shore. And they have the perfect excuse. The USA is no longer business friendly. Especially states like CA.
I have two PHD friends like that. One cannot get a job and the other works for minimum wage in a candy shop.
Nearly 7 million collecting unemployment checks for over 2 years.
I'm not saying things are great, but let's try to put things in a little perspective. Just trying to go a little closer to the center
http://www.nacsonline.com/NACS/News/Daily/Pages/ND1229107.aspx
Google "retail sales" on the news. It also shows 4.1% decline, so pick your poison!
BTW...what's all this have to do with GW? :P Even if there is no GW, driving more fuel efficient cars is still better for air quality and reducing our dependence on middle east oil. If we didn't need middle east oil, all of the conflicts of the past in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait would be as significant as conflicts in Africa that we tend to ignore.
This is like a blog...see you all later.
I'll know the economy is really hurting when I see the mall parking lots empty the next time I drive by and see folks standing in line for soup like in the 30's.
Here you go thanks to Obama's trying to circumvent the Congress and make his own GW rules and Regs.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f1d3f68/8276#MSG8276
First and foremost the condition of the economy drives how many new vehicles are purchased - meaning how many old vehicles are retired vs. having the latest technology of emissions and hopefully higher mpg. There is a big difference between the 16M that were sold several years ago, and the 11M sold this last year.
Second the economy affects the amount of driving everyone does. The less people employed the less commuting there is, and probably the less recreational driving there is. I saw a report the other day that the number of miles people drive here in the U.S. is down like 5% from the peak a few years ago.
Third if you're not getting much of a raise, or are worried about your job, people are less likely to stretch for things that cause more fuel to be burned - specifically I bet trailer/camper sales have been down to middle-class folks. And for people with a camper, some may change from a car to a truck to pull it.
Fourth as we said, the Federal Reserve's policies are devaluing the $ relative to the rest of the globe. This means that oil/gasoline become more expensive. More expensive gasoline means less will be used here. (Though that simply may allow the supply to go elsewhere around the globe).
Also I'm not really sure why you're concerned with pollution from personal autos. From what I know the emissions equipment on autos in the last 20 years has cleaned up the pollution issue. The main sources of air pollution from vehicles today come from 18-wheelers, buses and construction equipment; along with all the lawnmowers and such that people run in the summer. If you look into why Southern Cal has air pollution (a report I did for a class) you'll find that the majority of the pollution is caused by the seaport - idling diesel ships, cranes, and the trains and trucks that take the cargo away. And that again is a result of our economic policies of how much we buy, and how we ship things in from 1/2 a world away, rather than allowing our society to make things locally. Why aren't your Prius's batteries made here in the U.S.?