By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
Replace with "(insert race here) trash"
Just don't present stupid, outdated, nonsensical, and/or elitist excuses as to why not.
Just say, "don't want to, don't have to, won't" instead of some lame excuse.
On the east coast, how much would Carrie Bradshaw's mythical apartment (SEX & the City) go for in the NYC world ?
You can bet the Carrie and her friends would take a cab or even car service. I didn't see the whole series but did they ever ride the subway on that show?
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Just curious, what do you tell your kids on those 5,000 mile round trips?
:shades:
For guys, why where those Gucci loafers of old invented? To find their way to the limo !!!
And a half empty bus is far less polluting than 20 people taking their individual cars. Nothing outdated about that fact.
I already 'splained to you that even with my "sanity trips" back to my roots, I:
A. Pollute less than just about any other car on the road, and
B. Drive fewer miles per year than the average person who never takes long trips in their car.
Whew...........
I am talking about sheer emissions. The emission level of a clean diesel or CNG bus or particularly a hybrid diesel is FAR less than a combination of 20 average cars.
B - Again per your argument - public transportation pollutes less, so anytime you dirve you are deciding to pollute more.
Now to use the logic you just used - a person who drives a little (say under 3,000 miles a year) should be able to drive a big old SUV - right? What would be the difference between 3,000 miles a year in a Tahoe and 5,000 miles a year in a hybrid Camry?
So which is it - always pick public transportation, or make choices that are best for your situation? seems like you want others to give up what may be important to them so that you can feel good about choosing what is important to you.
You make a great point - public transportation is very often no the most efficient choice in terms of time and resources used - though not always the case.
Trains and such with limited stops and fixed schedules can be very good - but buses and such, especially local routes...well they just suck all the way around both in time and fuel compared to you car.
And yes, it is almost always true that driving a solo car, one person per commute, depending on the car, is more polluting than taking public transportation.
But we can't eliminate private cars any more than we can mandate public transportation.
Do it because it's the right thing to do for the environment. Take a chance of making a little personal sacrifice. Too few people do that these days.
P.S. I certainly woke up this little sleepy forum today. And as usual, I'm the one getting ganged-up on.
The subway conductors tend to be older, slightly overweight and married.
The male passengers obviously can't afford a cab or a limo, so therefore wouldn't be much of a catch.
That should answer your question...
Of course, I'm sure that they would have no problem telling us to use the subway.
The municipality where I live belongs to the local T/A. One year as a benefit to municipal employees, it bought 100 "seasoned passes" @ 60,000 dollars and offered them FREE to any employee. Now it can be argued that municipal employees gets PAID for riding mass transit (salary). So how many do you think asked for the passes? How many do you think used the passes?
do the same trip on the bus, and take a % of "overhead" related to the bus getting two and from the start and end of its route - I bet at anything less than say 75% full your portion of the trip is more than a third of a gallon.
Even worse when you consider the overhead related to the nearly empty buses late at night.
So I am not sure how that is the right thing?
That is too bad. Here in seattle we have a natural bottle neck from Lake Washington - a 12 mile drive (my commute when I drive my car) can take 2 hours on a bad day.
My company offers free van pool passes, and the park and ride is less than a mile from my house.
I take the Van Pool 4 out of 5 days because it saves me TIME - 30 minutes max each way, and it is free for me.
If I had to take a bus I would have to transfer downtown, and each leg would be 2 hours - and quite frankly if the choice is 2 hours in my car jamming to my tunes or two hours in a bus the choice is pretty clear...
For those who don't then just keep on pollutin' as usual amigos...................I'll not be...........
Well, you are already using mass transit - whatcha complainin about it for?
Can't see other points of view - or is it that you just take these things on FAITH? Perhaps what we have here is a new religion cloaked in "saving the world?"
Simple counter point - show me the same 5 mile typical round trip on a bus that uses less gas than your car?
If you can't then the bus is not more efficient - so I could say if you don't get it you don't get it, keep on pollutin' amigo, right?
And don't misunderstand - a full express bus in the HOV lane avoiding gridlock is clearly more efficient - that however is not most of the time. Most of the time the bus is less efficient.
and I am not justifying my other behavior based on riding in a vanpool - nor am I suggesting that other should drop what they are doing and jump in van. It works for me.
You on the other hand what people to downsize their cars and change their habbits to be more like you - that does not work for other people. You claim the sky is falling because people drive SUVs and such but by your own admission you drive 5K a year for FUN - (which I think you have ever right to do) yet you would suggest that somebody who drives and SUV for fun is killing the planet.
We should take the bus because it is more efficient yet you won't take the bus to Texas -
What it comes down to is you want to tell others what to do, and quite frankly others don't want to hear it from you any more. :shades:
See how limited this format is? Even one of the most open-minded people you'd ever meet in person is accused of being close-minded. Amazing !!!
If you are still thinking public buses are more inefficient than the one person/one car phenomenon then you have not been doing your homework.
5 miles on a bus, 5 miles per gallon at $2.50 per gallon, 20 people = 12.5 cents per person per 5 mile trip.
5 miles in a car, 25 miles per gallon at $2.50 per gallon, 1 person = 50 cents per person per 5 mile trip.
Anything else you need for clarification?
So 20 people on the bus - maybe 10 miles total based on the route, plus say and extra 10 miles to get to an from the bus barn and all of the sudden the math is not so rosy - and heavy forbid if there is say 10 people on the bus, well then you are really wasteful
I assume that the public buses in your area are showing a nice profit and that they do not have to be subsidized by tax payers, right? Certainly not the case in my area so I stay off of them in order to save money for the public good. I don't want someone else having to pay my fare.
How much profit are your buses showing anyway?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
You know you can't put "profit" on saving the world! :shades:
LOL - excellent post my friend!
Sorry you feel the way. The correct way to translate my perspective is something like this:
I have a lot of knowledge that many other people young than I am have not acquired, in part because I am smart ( thanks to genetics ) and educated ( thanks to the Marine Corps and two college degrees ) and I pay more attention to issues on the environment than most people do, because that's something I am VERY interested in.
When someone posts something on this forum which is out of touch with reality as I know it to be (such as the silly, outdated arguments against mass transit) then I use my brain, Google, and my personal experiences to post an alternative view. You can have just about any "life experience" level you want, but sometimes people's attitudes about something are just flat incorrect.
What I usually post is emotionally driven, littered with facts and sometimes opinions. But never an UNEDUCATED opinion, or a guess. I only post things I know have a lot of truth in them, preferably complete truth. Rarely have I slipped up and posted something which was completely wrong. I have made posting mistakes, as we all have.
If I "tell" someone something on this board, it's usually done for informational purposes and geared toward people who already don't have a STUBBORNLY set opinion. It is only in very small part designed to attempt to change someone's opinion on issues, because I have learned that around here it's awfully hard if not impossible to CHANGE someone's hard-earned opinions.
What I try to do is put another alternative set of facts out there for people who are looking to be informed about a subject they might know little or not much about.
I know that all the people here who align against me are never going to take my opinions seriously. So it's for the newbies who aren't already prejudiced against me.
No, I drive that because of circumstances beyond my control. I live and work here in Phoenix in a dream job, and my "root" family lives in Texas. That is not optional travel. People cannot be denied the freedom to visit their family roots. Everyone in America who lives in another state from their family roots and still has ties to those roots does the same thing I do at one time or another.
And most of them not in a PZEV car.
I INTENTIONALLY drive fewer miles in Phoenix JUST so I can take those trips. I could easily put 25,000 miles on my car a year, but I intentionally choose to drive far less than that.
For example, I started here in 2004 being a Hybrid Fanatic and a Diesel Hater.
Clean diesel technology has come about, and made me change my tune on that issue. I now know that clean diesel cars are truly clean, and I advocate that technology.
I also came to this exact forum with a 100% belief that Global Warming was man-made. I have been convinced that the jury is still out on that.
I'm stubborn ONLY when I KNOW I AM RIGHT.
I'm flexible under every other scenario.
While your post seems warm is spirit it does not in fact match the tone of how your post your opinion as facts.
Many years ago people suggested the world was flat, and if you disagreed, well you were not a happy camper.
Here you toss out your opinions - public transportation is better cars are worse, SUVs are really bad etc etc etc.
Then when someone disagrees with your OPINION - you beat them down with ad hominem attacks.
Your opinions are just that opinions, not Facts. You are suggesting that others change their ways, yet seem unwilling to change your ways.
while you have much experience - you are letting that cloud your mind - and stop making assumptions, I am not a 20 year old recent college grad either - no marine corp experience, but wish I had done something like that!
20 people in 20 different starting points going to 20 different locations for 20 different reasons are not going to be efficiently served by a bus - yet you would suggest that these 20 people would some how help the earth by having a 20,000 pound vehicle navigate all over hell and back - Take a step back and think about how that could possible be more efficient than having each person hope in their car and driving directly to and from their desired location.
now 20 people starting at (or near) the same point and ending at (or near) the same ending point would be very efficient - the NE is a great example of where this works, but look at Phoenix, the density is not there!
Doubles my mileage. Instead of giving me gas money, my ski buddy bought my coffee and Krispy Treat at the break.
That's a very broad generalization of my statements. When you read it like you quoted me, then yes, it's an opinion only.
But when you break down the specific facts into realistic pieces, it becomes more than an opinion. It becomes facts.
Public transportation, when used by enough people and scheduled wisely, is almost always going to pollute less than the same number of people taking one person/one car. That's not an opinion. That's a fact.
Saying "public transportation is the best thing for EVERYONE in EVERY situation" is an opinion, and a wrong one. I would never post that.
Saying "SUVs are bad bad bad and any car is better" is also an incorrect opinion. I would also never post that.
But when I say, "many people who owned and used a pickup or a large SUV for their mostly one-person commute during the SUV ERA could have got along with a sedan instead and polluted less" then that's not an opinion it's a fact.
And when I say even now that, "Many families buy more vehicle than they need for many of the wrong reasons because Americans love things BIG" that is also a fact.
It's also a fact, however, that some families could not reasonably get along without an SUV or a pickup, and certain workers and ranchers absolutely need them.
I owned a 7-passenger SUV back in 2000 when I had a larger family. We COULD have gotten along with the two 5-passenger cars we started with, but I wanted to keep the newly minted wife happy, so I traded for the Suburban. (Big mistake, as it turns out. Long story short, I should have kept the two sedans.)
My opinion is that people should buy the least-polluting vehicle that meets their needs and their budgets. Take pollution into account when deciding. Don't overextend yourself either in vehicle size or budget, and don't choose a higher-polluting vehicle for some stupid reason like "it has a better stereo." You can buy a great stereo from 50,000 different stores.
I just don't see any need to pretend that most public buses are an efficient means of transportation. If they were they would not have to be subsidized by tax payers. They are for people who can't afford anything else and I certainly don't begrudge them, but they are not for me. Too snooty I guess.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I agree these forums are difficult to have spirited conversation - they are lacking human interaction. I am please to know you have your dream job.
Here is what I get hung up on - in a post above you mention that you have no choice about travel - but the reality is you do, you can drive, take the train ride the bus, fly a plane or not go, all of those are choices you can make. I say make the choice you want to make - but keep in mind, by your own example the bus would be more efficient.
Second you state "And when I say even now that, "Many families buy more vehicle than they need for many of the wrong reasons because Americans love things BIG" that is also a fact.
It's also a fact, however, that some families could not reasonably get along without an SUV or a pickup, and certain workers and ranchers absolutely need them. "
This holds true for you as well, you could have bought a Prius a smaller and more efficient car - the difference between that and a hybrid Camry are pretty small - again I support your choice, but your suggestion that bigger is worse for others runs against what you did.
An lastly - unless someone asks "hey larsb what kind of car is best for me?" why are you making any suggestions about what somebody should drive?
Debate is good, keep up the posts, just leave things like "stupid reason" out - stupid to you (or me for that matter!) might be a deal breaker for somebody else, and I for one know I am not ready to decide what is best for other people, hard enough to do that just for me!
:shades:
I don't think you have convinced anyone here you are open minded. You have PZEV on the mind or mass transit. If people don't fit your mold they are wrong and you are right.
5 miles on a bus, 5 miles per gallon at $2.50 per gallon, 20 people = 12.5 cents per person per 5 mile trip.
Cost to passenger $2.75. If I drive my Sequoia that same 5 miles it is 65 cents for gas. I would consider bus service practical if there were 20 people on board. I have not seen a city bus with 10 on board for ever here in East County of San Diego. I would imagine in the Metro area they are more used. Dump the service that is not used at least 50% full. IT IS A HUGE WASTE OF TAX DOLLARS. It is cutting into road maintenance money. The State is BROKE. Ahnold says no tax refunds. No money in the treasury for the last 17 months. Time to dump some of the waste. Like MASS TRANSIT. A bus with 4 people is not as cost effective as each driving their own car. Face facts man. Mass transit is a failure in all but the largest cities.
No, I cannot take the bus or fly. Flying is prohibitively costly, and if I were to either bus or fly, I would be in arriving Texas with three different towns to visit and no car for driving while there. Renting a car, I would have a hard time finding a PZEV car to rent, and it would add prohibitively to the cost of the trip. Taking a bus and renting a car or flying and renting a car are both considerably more expensive and more polluting than my driving my own PZEV . You think I haven't thought these things out already?
As for car trading advice:
I traded in a manual-tranny 2204 HCH for my TCH. It was dang near too small for my needs with two growing kids, and the trunk was very small, and although I always managed to get what I needed into it on my trips, it was a pain. The TCH was brand spanking new and OH SO tempting and I got a smoking deal on my trade-in. It might have been smarter financially to keep the HCH, but I traded a PZEV for a PZEV and got a much larger, much nicer car with only a slightly higher car payment in the trade-up. This fits perfectly into my preaching of "buy the smallest and least polluting car which fits your family's needs" and this was the case for me.
And yes, I do feel the obligation, with the knowledge I have acquired about cars and pollution over the last 4+ years, to recommend to people what I think is best for them. They have the right to say, "Um, No, I don't think so" BUT I ALSO am confident enough in my advice to know that it is good and fits a lot of people.
You don't stop giving good advice just because that advice does not suit 100% of the people all the time.
Good Advice Never Dies.
And on the "stupid" comments: Stupid is as stupid does. Whatever that means.
You were a big part in the reason I understand that Diesel Fuel Is Not The Devil. You KNOW I changed my tune on dirty diesel versus clean diesel.
And you know also that I backed down on my most radical Global Warming comments once I understood that issue better.
Don't try to tell me I'm close-minded, because that is FAR FAR from the truth and you know it better than anyone here.
Be truthful.
Did I ever say it was 100% cost effective for 100% of the cities and people 100% of the time?
I don't recall ever saying that.
In the large cities with a lot of customers, it serves the public well. It pollutes less than the alternative of "one person/one car" commuting. It saves a lot of people time and gas money. It reduces traffic congestion.
Does it not work well in 100% of the areas it is used? Correct. But try to kill a mass transit system.
Here are some good arguments for mass transit I Googled:
When some people take the bus rather than drive in individual cars, we all benefit from a reduced demand for parking. Of course there’s money to be saved for every parking space that employers don’t have to build or maintain, but there are also important environmental benefits to not building parking, too. By not building parking, we reduce the rate at which land surrounding the urban area is gobbled up.
When some people take the bus rather than drive in individual cars, we all benefit from reduced congestion on city and campus streets.
Local planners project that over the next two decades traffic congestion will increase to twelve times current levels, given current patterns of new development, which heavily favor travel by car. In other words, unless mass transit plays a larger role in the way our community grows, drivers will spend more and more time sitting in their cars in the years to come, using more gas, creating more exhaust . . . you know this.
Beyond the inconvenience increased traffic congestion means for drivers, it also creates an environment that is hostile to other means of transportation. As streets become more crowded with cars, they become more dangerous for people who walk or bike, in effect creating pressure for them to drive, too.
Not everyone can use bus service to get from place to place. But that does not make the benefits of bus service to the community any less real.
For every passenger mile traveled, public transportation uses about half the fuel of private automobiles, sport-utility vehicles and light trucks. Private vehicles emit about 95 percent more carbon monoxide, 92 percent more volatile organic compounds and about twice as much carbon dioxide and nitrogen oxide than public vehicles for every passenger mile traveled.
A 10% nationwide increase in transit ridership would save 135 million gallons of gasoline per year. This fuel efficiency results in personal savings and in a cleaner environment for all.
So is mass transit the perfect solution? No.
But is undoubtedly, unquestionably, indubitably, superior to the "one car/one person" commute method.
I assume that the public buses in your area are showing a nice profit and that they do not have to be subsidized by tax payers, right? Certainly not the case in my area so I stay off of them in order to save money for the public good. I don't want someone else having to pay my fare.
How much profit are your buses showing anyway? "...
Reminds me of that MasterCard jingo.
The ability to recover just costs from "fare box recovery system"..... slim to impossible. Normally MASSIVE losses!
The ability to force it out of unwilling taxpayers wallets......
PRICELESS !!!!!!
I think you need to use a different term to describe your vehicles. The TCH only gets an 8 emissions rating when driven in a Non CARB state. The gas is the difference. In AZ your car is rated by the EPA as Bin 3. That is only 2 bins shy of a diesel Jetta
You can only buy car models that meet PZEV standards if you live in California, Maine, Massachusetts, New York, or Vermont and in Canadawiki
RUG to PUG= 30 ppm sulfur
D2, ULSD= 15 ppm sulfur
Yet most passenger car diesels are judged on 500 ppm LSD used by totally unmitigated trucks and busses !!
Do folks that drive HCH's and Prius' ever wonder how they would run on leaded regular of the late 70's was the only thing available?
I called Toyota and they said that their are not differences in the engines of any cars sold in various locations.
Any and every TCH is a PZEV. The differences are in fuel. Any PZEV in AZ is as clean as any other PZEV in AZ.
Some states have different gas formulations and that changes the EPA emission gas levels and is the basis of their air pollution scores.
But to my own situation: Any PZEV I buy or drive in Arizona is as clean as any other PZEV I would buy or drive in Arizona. It only gets slightly cleaner using gas from those CARB states.
Maybe when we get you to see the light on all the money and fossil fuel wasted in city buses running around with a handful of people in them. As far as you taking the bus to TX. I agree with your choice. My wife's 80 year old aunt was a victim of Greyhound's incompetence last summer. She survived no thanks to Greyhound. Dumped her 80 miles from her destination because the bus broke down and transferred her to a bus going to another destination. You will never convince me on mass transit for any place but the largest of cities. Of course it will not affect me except in the pocket book. As I avoid big cities like the plague they are.
So we got you close to open minded on 2 out of 3.
There is the rub. The highly sophisticated emissions equipment required for the PZEV rating in CA, can be damaged by the higher sulfur in non CARB states gas. Remember the $1100 Prius catalytic converters that were not covered in non carb states. Plus you do not get near the warranty when you buy a PZEV car in a non CARB state. I imagine that most of the states are now using somewhat cleaner gas than they did a few years ago. It may have a PZEV sticker in the Window. As I have said forever. It is the gas and diesel that caused most of the pollution. Getting the lead out and the sulfur out was a much bigger contributor to clean air than all the crap they were required to put on the cars to cover up bad gas and diesel.
Speaking of Al Gore. He was before the Congress trying to explain why it is SOOO darn cold in most of the World. Climate Change makes it so much easier to pull the wool over the dimwits we have in Congress. We had a two day cold spell here. Should be in the low 70s today. It was perfect yesterday. Had lunch on the patio overlooking the valley below. Life is tough. Got all my tests from Kaiser. Looks like I may be around a long time to keep you in line.
Then it's going to happen to your favorite children, the clean diesels, too.