Are automobiles a major cause of global warming?

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Comments

  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    have you seen the NOVA special about suspended particles in the atmosphere reducing evaporation. It has the opposite effect of CO2. If we clean up the air, the heating from CO2 would increase. This explains the lack of moisture in the air, the expansion of the Sahara, droughts in sub Sahara. They call it Global Dimming. Volcanic eruptions can cause it also.

    Toyota alone has 115 arces of cars waiting at the Port of LA for dealers to need them. If year over year growth in anything and everything does not occur, then the stock will go down and we risk a recession. So the choice is prosperity with peril to the Earth, or recession, with extreme hardship and unhappiness throughout the land.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    RED HERRINGS !!!

    We are not and have not been talking about GREYHOUND or TOUR BUS travel.

    We have been talking about local city bus travel.

    A lifetime odds of a person dying in a bus accident is 1 in 94,242; as a pedestrian 1 in 631, as a car occupant 1 in 247.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    A lifetime odds of a person dying in a bus accident

    You are so good with odds. What are the odds that you will be drowned by the ocean rising, caused by man made GW? My guess about 100 trillion to one.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    :):)
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    Just curious is that odds in per person or per person in travelled miles? If it is per traveled miles then it it a valid comparision, otherwise the bus stat is very biased as thenumber of peole that take the bus if far fewer than walk (everyone does at some point) or ride/drive a car (again almost everyone does at some point). Not that I am saying travel by bus is not safer just want to be clear on the stats (also buses (especially city buses) tend to do all their milage at city speeds (generally 40 mph or less) so again there is less chance of dying due to the lack of speed (not that this is a bad thing just trying to find out what your stats actually represent).
    Scott
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I'm not sure.

    My only point was to magnify the fact that people should not fear taking mass transit because of some irrational "fear for their safety."

    You are much more likely to get killed or injured in your own car than on a city bus or train or subway or tram or L train, etc.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Larsb knows as well as anybody else, the federal figures are posted link title, as I and any number of folks have made linked references to them. The insurance data also keeps a web site IIHS

    Here are 2004's link title
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If you are in London without an SUV you are stuck, in a very little 8 inches of snow. They should be ashamed shutting buses and trains down for that little bit of snow. I guess their plan to get rid of SUVs has kind of backfired. What would they do if they got 3-4 feet of snow?

    No trains are running to London and very few are traveling east or West out of Brighton. The buses appear to have stopped

    Six million bus passengers were left in the lurch as all London's bus services were halted because of dangerous driving conditions, and every Tube line except the Victoria line was at least partially suspended.


    I think Brown will have a tough time selling his GW carbon credit scam to the Brits.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    But Gagrice, Global WARMING does NOT allow it to snow in London !!!!! And I was going to bring nothing but aloha shirts during my London UK winter visits !!! ;)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    (also buses (especially city buses) tend to do all their milage at city speeds (generally 40 mph or less)

    Most of San Diego bus and all the Trolley travel is on the level pretty much. The city bus service to my little village of Alpine and points beyond are serviced on Interstate 8. The buses travel down 7% grades at 70+ MPH. No seat belts are provided. Very similar circumstances to the recent bus crash that killed 7 tourists. I will leave the bus riding to Larsb.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    well thanks to google I have found the stats as an average from 1991-2001 here
    http://www.fee.org/pdf/the-freeman/0506Semmens.pdf To summerize yes buses are safer than cars for urban travel, but no where near the ratio that you provided. City buses have a fatality rate of 6 per billion passenger miles, urban travel by cars has a fatality rate of 10 per billion passenger miles, also Light rail has a fatality rate of 14 per billion, and commuter rail 12 per billion. The interesting this is per billion vehicle miles travelled, buses have a rate of 55 and urban cars 11. So though you will be a bit safer if you travel by bus, you won't by other public transportation, and if you only include fatalities by number of miles travelled per vehicle you are much safer in cars than anything else. (strange but true). So sorry your odds are completely wrong, though your point about bus travel being safer is sort of true, and you are completely wrong on your assertion that commuter,/light rail/rail travel are safer than urban travel by car.
    Scott
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Just as you Googled those results, I could Google more to show I'm closer to being on target than those limited stats.

    But I won't, because my point is true. City bus = safer than private car. At least in the USA. Can't speak for other countries.
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,294
    "...you are much safer in cars than anything else..."

    And the odds of some smelly guy rubbing up against you and telling you that you are "cute" are pretty low too. ;)

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    But I won't, because my point is true. City bus = safer than private car.

    And that is because the bus is bigger, so therefore private drivers should buy the biggest vehicle they can afford? :D
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Heck no it's not because it's bigger !!!
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    So what do you think is the reason they are safer? They don't have seat belts, or airbags for the passengers, there are more (not less) distractions for the drivers, so why are they safer (and as I said before I am not saying they aren't safer)? I don't think the drivers are all that much better trained either (they are less well trained than transport drivers and transports have a higher accident rate (and of course there are more of them and they drive more miles). Part of the reason they are safer in my opinion is that they are larger, also that there are fewer of them on the raod than cars (a good thing I agree) and that they tend not to go as fast as cars. BTW from my experience here in Canada I don't think the "stinky, dangerous " label applies here in general either (but there are still incidents of course, people are people of course), but I cannot say if it applies to other areas. Anyway what are your reasons why busses are safer than cars for urban travel?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I'm not going to get into all that.

    My point, the only point I wanted to make, is that it is foolish to dismiss mass transit merely because you think it's "less safe" than private car travel.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    Buses don't cover nearly the distance that cars do. It's not even an apples-to-apples comparison.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    My point, the only point I wanted to make, is that it is foolish to dismiss mass transit merely because you think it's "less safe" than private car travel.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    but yet you put out the definative statement that it is not because they are larger indicating that you had a source (or opinion) on why they are safer, so I would like to know what that is (or what your reasoning on why they are safer). It is not enough to put out a statement and then refuse to answer any questions about it, though yes your point may be valid you need to explain what your popint is based on otherwise it may be unfairly dismissed.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    How about if I dismiss it because it is more expensive than driving my Sequoia. A trip to Costco is 13 miles each way. Two transfers to get there by bus and trolley. Half mile walk to Costco from Trolley stop. 2.8 miles to bus stop closest to the house. Cost for a day pass $5. Roundtrip to Costco by car 26 miles. Divided by 15 MPG = 1.73 gallons of gas. Price today at Costco $1.95 per gallon. Cost to drive door to door $3.37. Money saved $1.63. Costco hotdog and Pepsi $1.50 plus tax equals $1.62. I get to go in comfort and have lunch for less than the cost to ride the bus. No chance of a derelict causing me to lose my appetite. :shades:

    Did I mention it should get to 80 degrees today. I think it is spring time. Only two days of light frost this winter. If this is Global Warming I LIKE IT a LOT....
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Your odds of dying are much better in a bus than in a car.

    Google Answers

    The odds of dying from...

    "It has been shown that road casualties are dependent on public transport fares; lower fares lead to increased transport use and decreased casualty rates." link
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    And according to that, your 10X safer on a "3-wheeled vehicle". LOL

    Steve come on now, you must realize that is based on the fact that most people ride the bus once or twice a year on average, and make 1,000 trips in an auto for more mileage? Those statistics need to be based on a per mile travelled basis.

    Or do you believe the safest vehicle possible is a 3-wheel trike (a converted motorcycle?).
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    My point is (and remains) that statistics (and in my case common sense) have shown that riding in a city bus is far less likely to get you killed or injured than driving or being a passenger in a private vehicle.

    This was in an attempt to refute people who say "I don't ride a city bus 'cause it's too dangerous." There are people on this forum who have posted that statement or something similar, so this thread started because of that. I threw in some odds to hammer home the point. Steve's recent post has some good statistics again confirming my contention.

    My contention is that you should not avoid riding city buses for that reason, or for a few others I have mentioned, because mass transit is good for the environment and pollutes less that private cars, in per-person pollution (usually).
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Translation....In other words, I'm just yapping...with nothing to back it up.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    Sorry steve I have to agree that the data you reference is saying there were x # deaths per type of accident and using the whole population coming up with odds, there is no per mile (or quantity of miles) travelled (in the case of transportation) taken into account. Which means that technically these odds are correct, but they mean nothing as they haven't taken into account the milage traveled for their odds, for example if the was 1 death per year from say pogo sticks, but only one person uses a pogo stick per year then really the chances of you dying if you use a pogo stick would be 100% even though the stie you list would have your chance of dying on a pogo stick of 1 in 350,000,000 (or whatever the current population of the US is at this point), this is how stats can be used to prove anything you want, by not including a frame of refence for your stats (i.e. an equalizer).
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    this is how stats can be used to prove anything you want

    And that is EXACTLY what the UN IPCC compilers have done. They cherry picked their favorite statistics and put them in a fancy book to impress the media. Then had a fun vacation in Bali resort to present their findings. Those scientists that felt their data was distorted soon found they were left out of the GROUP. No funding for you guys that disagree with the UN. I wonder if the scientists that submit data the UN likes get big fat bonus checks. Or just huge wads of cash in an unmarked envelope.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I posted data to back it up. So did Steve.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Great data. How about the data that you are more likely to die while watching TV, then climbing Mt. Everest. Therefore we can all conclude watching TV must be safer. ;)

    But I do think that big old bus's size makes it safe, even though it has no seatbelts or airbags for each passenger. The bigger it is, the safer it is! :)
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    kernick says, "The bigger it is, the safer it is! "

    Only when physics is the primary overriding safety factor. And that's a VERY small percentage of crashes.

    The tiny SMART Car is pretty safe, but in a very, super-unlikely head-on with an Excursion? The SMART is TOAST.

    Lucky for SMART car owners, the chances of head-onning into an Excursion are even smaller than the chances of getting killed on a City bus.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    but the Smart car could crash head on in to an Excursion, though we wouldn't want to even go there.

    Hey, gagrice, what are the chances of that Costco hot dog you enjoyed clogging up your arteries as compared to a new world order McDonald's Big Mac? Similar with both foods, let's say one hot dog consumed per week as opposed to one Big Mac, hold the french fries? Anyone in here like to study foods and their potential damage to our bodies?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    That is not something to worry about. We start to die the minute we are born. Nothing to do about that, imo. Most important thing is your genes.

    It is much more important how much you eat rather than what you eat, within reason of course. Just my opinion. I could be wrong. :)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    houdini. And your genetic makeup points you towards good health or bad a lot of the time. Just curious if anyone reading knew if a hot dog or a Big Mac was worse for your artery health. Might be close to a tie.

    A bus trip would be more likely to me if I lived in a place like NYC, St.Louis, Seattle, etc., and lived downtown. Bus travel just doesn't work when you have to go longer distances between work and home.

    I live about a 1/3rd of a mile from my work, so, should probably walk, eh? But I don't! :P I know, that's just plain wrong.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    there is no per mile (or quantity of miles) travelled (in the case of transportation) taken into account

    Just for you:

    "Among all passenger transportation modes, the motorcoach fatality rate is lowest - 0.4 fatality per 100 million vehicle miles. For cars, the rate is 3.5 times higher. For air, the rate is six times higher, and for passenger trains, the rate is 35 times higher."

    And if you can't believe Peter Pan, who can you believe? :) Maybe the light rail people? (they cite the feds). Hey, an epidemiology journal - " Bus travel is the safest travel mode."

    Pogo sticks (and don't forget stilts - they're fun too) are ok, but I'm sticking to street cars. No fatalities period, per one of my links.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Well just be be the bearer of good news the yearly US fatality report. puts death at app 1.4 M per year.

    ..."Transportation Secretary Mary E. Peters announced the number of people killed in traffic crashes is expected to reach a record low in 2008, with early projections showing an almost 10-percent drop in traffic deaths in the first 10 months. “Our focus on safety – from our highways, railways, seaways and airways – has led to one of the safest periods in our nation’s transportation history,” Peters said Dec. 11 in Kansas City. Estimates show 31,110 people died on U.S. roads from Jan.-Oct., compared with 34,502 in 2007 during that same period. In addition, the fatality rate per 100 million vehicles miles traveled for the first nine months of 2008 is 1.28, compared with 1.37 for 2007."...

    Upshot: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> less than 2.2>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>%.

    Conversely the short and longer term results of what we injest...... priceless :sick: :lemon: surpasses 2.2%%.....
    link title
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,294
    "...No chance of a derelict causing me to lose my appetite..."

    Not to mention no chance a derelict will steal your big screen TV that you lugged on to the bus. ;)

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,294
    "...so, should probably walk, eh? But i don't..."

    If I enjoyed my car as much as you AND lived in a nice climate like you do, I would never walk anywhere. Not even to the bathroom! :blush:

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Actually I am usually full from grazing on all the samples in Costco. :sick: Costco hotdogs are 100% beef kosher Hebrew National dogs. Got to be better for you than a Big Mac...The Pepsi ain't too good for you though. I only get that craving maybe once every couple months. Then I ask myself, why did I eat that thing? We steer clear of 99% of processed foods. The only cereal we ever eat is Quaker oats NON instant. My wife bakes bread a couple times a week. Whole wheat with sourdough leaven.

    We are probably causing much of the global warming with running our propane oven.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    SO according to the only unbiased report. Bicycles are twice as dangerous as cars. And Motorcycles 50 times more dangerous than cars. With walking 1.3 times more dangerous than car travel. Bus being the safest if you are not mugged, raped, fondled, sickened by the smells or elevated to a new level by the pot smokers on board?

    I will take my Sequoia and some Wagner (Vaugner to the unwashed). As depressing as his music is, there is no comparison to riding a city bus.

    How much more does an empty bus contribute to GW than a car with one person?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The wrinkle is that bus passengers are by necessity also pedestrians at some point in their journey. That's when they get run over by the speeding bicycle messengers. :)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Those nasty bike messengers. Spewing GHG from the beans and tortillas they have for breakfast, lunch and dinner. More MM GW.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    Thanks Steve,
    And just to clarify I never disagreed about there being fewer deaths on buses, I just thought the odds thing was a bit biased due to the lack of an equalizer, though this is for vehicle miles and not passenger miles I do believe it presents a better (more realistic) picture than the odds that didn't take mileage into account.
    That said, (and back on Topic) I will agree that in larger cities and places where public transportation is as efficient as possible (and you can use it to get to work and back) that it does make environmental sense to use that transportation to commute (also in larger cities you tend to have stores to buy your groceries etc much closer to home (though you may pay a bit more) and not have to buy in quantity so not need a car for that either. If I lived in a large city (such as Toronto of New York) I know I would use public transportation at least 90% of the time, when I do ge into Toronto I find a place to park and either walk or take transit during my visit. Also I am not sure that if I lived there I would even own a car (despite being an enthusiast) due to the expense of owning a car in the city and the effectiveness of public transportation there, and due to how conveniently close places I would want to go are. I would probably rent a car when I needed it (probably belong to the ZIP car service (I think that is what its called) ). In my current location I could do without driving much if I didn't work in another city about 30 miles away, there is no public transportation link between the cities (at least not yet, there are talks about it happening sometime in the future) so I have to drive (and there are no jobs in my field locally, but the city I live in is much nicer than the city I work in and the property prices lower, so it is a price I willingly pay at this time). Now I do want to keep my impact as low as possible so I am waiting for the electric or range extending hybrids or some other technology to come along and be tested in our climate (for range in the winter etc for an electric for example) before I buy my next car, I am hoping that my current car will be my last gasoline powered car (yes that means I will consider diesel as well, but only if the is a source of bio diesel available locally at that time).
    Sorry a bit of a long message there. All in all, although I may not believe that we are responsible for the majority of global warming (or global climate change) I do believe that we have a responsibility to try to reduce pollution and other effects on our environment and am all for anything that will do so. That said if this is the true intention of the GW proponents they are in my opinion going about it the wrong way, but that is of course my opinion. I read one study that said even if we reduced our carbon output to zero today the effects wouldn't be felt till the year 3000, this even if it is true doesn't really make me want to rush out and do something about it, because it makes it sound like any efforts would be futile, they need to come out with something that lets people know their efforts will make a difference in the near term for them to actually want to change their ways at all. I will continue to do my best to have as little impact on the planet as possible (though it may not be as little as some, it is way less than most) and as new technologies that are less polluting come along and I can afford them I will implement them into my lifestyle.
    Scott
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    thanks for your honest rendering of your situation. I, too, am looking forward to my next vehicle being a "green" car. I feel we ought to do what we can to help reduce pollution. As far as carbon dioxide "pollution", it's in the pudding that we all puff out.

    Even if we go all out and make "biosphere's" of our homes, grow our own veggie's, plant more cactii(in my SW USA situation, anyway)and trees, drive no more ICE cars, the Chinese are continuing to build more coal-fired electric plants than you can shake a stick at. And they're moving towards more modernization and vehicle production, 2nd largest car market in the world, behind the U.S.

    Our contribution to global warming through the usage of our cars is still an issue, though muted by the sheer numbers, when you consider all the other nation's input. Still, I want to produce no more emissions with my automobile in my next rig, hence, I want a 2010 Pininfarina-Bollore B-Zero all-electric vehicle. By the time I pull the trigger that may need to be a 2013 Pininfarina-Bollore B-Zero, however. Still the intent, though.

    Zero emissions, yep. :)

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Excellent choice ! :)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Animals like horses and mules, which are an important mode of transportation in the hilly regions are doing their bit in reducing toxic greenhouse gas emissions too, scientists said.

    In a sample study in the Uttarakhand's Garhwal region, the experts found that the emissions worth 14.5 lakh kilograms of carbon dioxide (CO2) every year could be reduced by utilising the services of animals for transportation in the entire division.

    "We found that by using pack animals --mules and horses for transportation, the carbon emission could be reduced in a large amount," Nehal A Farooquee, a member of the research team said.

    Carbon emission is the major reason for global warming. The leaders from the G-8 (developed countries) countries recently in a summit in Japan pledged to halve carbon emissions by 2050.


    http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/StoryPrint.aspx?ID=NEWEN20080057874&ch=6335- 69681630000000

    We really need to get Moonbeam and CARB up to speed on this. Best way to cut GHG and GW. No need to work on the infrastructure. Let the Interstates go back to dirt. Easier on the horses. Bridge collapses, no problem just let your horse carry you across the river. What is Al Gore's number, I need to get him going on this???
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    only it's gonna freak a lot of us out to not have our steel carriages any more.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You can see how Geronimo and Wyatt Earp got around. I can tell you if the GW Cult gets its way they want to shut GHG DOWN. Something has to go and I got a feeling a lot of people will jump off the bandwagon when told they have to leave the mega mansion and head for a cave.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I better get my wagon fixed up. My other wagon that is.

    image
    See more Car Pictures at CarSpace.com
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    Big problem with this is that they are only taking into account co2 they are conveniently forgetting about methane and other pollutants which (although naturally biodegradable) that are far worse than anything cars put out, plus of course the pollution to grow the crops for all these pack animals, so sorry no solution (not that it ever would be I hope)
    Scott
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    Horses to replace cars, eh ? Hmm..........let's go back to when horses ruled and cars didn't exist. All the major European city streets were absolutely mired in horse sh1t manure. Not only did it make walking very unpleasant, it was a major health risk. Might be good for growing roses but just how roses does the world need ?

    Back to the drawing board, methinks. :)
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