Are automobiles a major cause of global warming?

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Think of all the people you could employ to keep the streets of London free of horse poop.

    I guess my point is this is basically what would have to happen to go back to old levels of GHG. Are we willing to do without electricity? If the internal combustion engine was outlawed as Al Gore proposed in his "Earth in the Balance" book, would we be willing to ride a bike or walk? The least of the issue is the increases the fat cats are planning for our utilities. It seems the figure most tossed around is 25% for electric. Well I can tell you that will raise your water and sewer bills also. CA has mandated a big chunk of electric production be provided by renewable sources. Yet the same government blocks the utilities from doing just that. We are in a crisis in this country and the World. And the GW Alarmist are a big part of the problem.

    PS
    I love roses. Just planted two more bare root Jackson & Perkins hybrids this week. Can't have too many roses.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    We would never have to go without electricity, because by the time fossil fuels run dangerously low, solar and wind and other alternative sources will have been "market perfected" and will be providing us with plenty of juice.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Larsb, you live in a dream world. If the powers that be were to get their way, ALL coal fired generation would be shut down. Last I checked that was 52% of the nations electricity. CA will not accept anymore from coal fired generation. Yet these same eco terrorists block, Wind, geothermal, solar and Nuclear.

    Fossil fuel will not run dangerously low for at least 400 more years. We have enough coal to provide power and fuel for 100s of years. Wind and solar will be a small portion for at least the next 100 years. I don't think any of the power companies in CA will meet the renewable mandate by 2012.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Indeed the CA state mandate: "from nat gas generation only" creates the foreign "oil" dependency all over again. (SOS DD) The natural gas comes from foreign sources, like CN. All those investments in Quatar like 7 B, to develop nat gas resources and markets are not the chance type roulette or keno bets.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Well, you know as well as I do that when push comes to shove, clean power will rule over coal. Regardless of all other considerations.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    NOTHING !!

    but here are some snippets from an interesting article that puts a few things in perspective.

    ..."This thing weighs more than a bison and is longer than a city bus, ...

    A snake's size is related to how warm its environment is. The fossils suggest equatorial temperatures in its day were significantly warmer than they are now, during a time when the world as a whole was warmer. So equatorial temperatures apparently rose along with the global levels, in contrast to the competing hypothesis that they would not go up much, Head noted."...

    link title
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Toxic Gases Caused World's Worst Extinction
    Michael Reilly, :

    Discovery News Video Feb. 4, 2009 -- An ancient killer is hiding in the remote forests of Siberia...

    link title
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    A snake's size is related to how warm its environment is. The fossils suggest equatorial temperatures in its day were significantly warmer than they are now, during a time when the world as a whole was warmer.

    Or perhaps it points to a time when reptiles and humans lived longer due to a pre-flood atmosphere that was much different than it is today. Do reptiles continue to grow until they die, unlike humans? If so it can be the resule of simply living longer, much longer.
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,310
    "...so sorry no solution..."

    But just think of all the jobs this plan would create for manure shovelers. I'm thinking laid-off UAW workers and politicians would be the best for the jobs. The former, because they are desperate, the latter because they are experts at shoveling manure. ;)

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    As long as it does not become a caste system where you can not work your way out of the S***. :sick:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    How will EVs and Plug-in hybrids impact our environment.

    I found this site that gives a breakdown of our power generation sources. It gives the pros and cons of each source. We are now getting 57% of our power from Coal. The only renewable that will challenge coal on a price basis is Wind generation. At least for now. Natural gas has some interesting downsides including high NoX.

    The nation's fleet of over 100 coal plants is responsible for 57 percent of the electricity generated in the U.S., more than any other single electricity fuel source.

    http://www.powerscorecard.org/tech_detail.cfm?resource_id=2
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Natural gas has some interesting downsides including high NoX.

    Natural gas is methane - CH4. When you burn it in the presence of air (O2 and N2), you get a mix of NOX, H2O, and where does the carbon go - our little friend CO2.

    I'm not sure if everyone here realizes that the use of natural gas or ethanol/propane/butane ... and hydrocarbon form CO2?

    Unless you use wind, solar, geothermal, or nuclear to generate electricity, your power-plant combustion results in CO2. That clean EV, is most likely just using energy from coal or natural gas.
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,310
    Well, according to Al Gore you are. He was recently recorded telling a group of 12 year olds that "There's some things you know (about climate change) that older people don't know". Implying, of course, that parents are stupid and that kids should ignore them.

    He also compared older folks' skepticism of Al's CC scam to attitudes displayed by racists during the civil rights movement.

    This sounds like something right out of Communist Indoctrination 101 or perhaps the Hitler Youth.

    Perhaps one day your children will be informing the state that you left the bathroom light on too long and Al's Green Shirts will come in the night to take you away. :cry:

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I see that mentality all through our current government. Pass the stimulus bill or we will not survive as country. NO Hope, All Fear. These are very troubling tactics being used to push for bigger government. I see the whole MM Global Warming agenda as radical Alarmist bullying.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I really don't think that you two, old farmer and gagrice truly understand how right on you are describing the situation/s !!!! The new powers that be are really using time old TESTED procedures, only brought into the 21 st century.

    So for example, most folks do not conceive of it this way, but back in the Civil Rights ERA, (before actually) the KKK or KU KLUX KLAN was the "terrorist" arm of the democratic party. It is not unlike Hamas, etc etc.... for example. You know go out and scare the C out of the targeted groups in the white robes and all, in support of established policy/s. Gotta love gun control, as it would be hard to come to work the next day all full of buck shot or #7 load pellets !

    As an allegory, it is not unlike the film "The Godfather" and its sequels. The upshot is the classic line delivered by Al Pacino as the "MOB" is now legit, and he says words to effect "I try to get out but they keep pulling me back in."

    So in effect the whole Global Warming gig is just a kinder and gentler way to try to scare the C... out of us all.

    Are U all BUYING?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Global warming can be considered a legitimate concern without one belittling the sufferers of past tragedies by comparing it with Hitler, the Klan, or communism.

    "Long-term sea level increases that could have a devastating effect on southern Florida and highly populated coastal areas may be even larger than once thought, a report suggests." The Guardian

    "In a move aimed at limiting harm to Arctic waters opened by global warming, a federal advisory board voted Thursday to ban commercial fishing north of the Bering Strait off Alaska's coast." KATU

    Glaciers in China are Melting at a 'Worrisome Speed':scientists (MedIndia.com)

    "While the harsh winter pounding many areas of North America and Europe seemingly contradicts the fact that global warming continues unabated, a new survey finds consensus among scientists about the reality of climate change and its likely cause.

    A group of 3,146 earth scientists surveyed around the world overwhelmingly agree that in the past 200-plus years, mean global temperatures have been rising, and that human activity is a significant contributing factor in changing mean global temperatures." Survey: Scientists agree human-induced global warming is real (Eureka.org)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I didnt perceive at all that anybody was belittling the sufferers of past tragedies !!! If anything the ethos is to prevent that from happening AGAIN !!! The laws in the day fully protected that"terrorist" arm. Just like for example, now the laws fully protect the now instutionalized "green laws" So for example MTBE is one multi billion dollar fiasco.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Some good points. Do you ANYONE in NYC (aka right on the water or close to it) advocating evacuating some to all parts of that city??? Is there anybody saying we have to stop building!? They would send you upstate to a mental institution, if you said it in front of the right people. When the WTC was attacked 9/11 did anyone stop the rebuilding? As folks that are familar, the WTC is built in a "bath" tub!!

    So what I am saying is the environmentalists do not even believe their OWN press !!!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Comparing Gore to Hitler is an automatic loser, per Godwin.

    You know I can post 5 links a day just like that last blast, all based on surveys or studies. The drumbeat keeps rolling on. With all the research money getting thrown at the issue, you'd think that a few of these studies would go against the grain - not every scientist has sold their soul in the name of getting a grant next year.

    Show me the links. :shades:
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Well I think it is more than apparent the message got lost in the translation. NOBODY said Gore was HITLER !!! However I do and did ask how the greening of NYC is going!!?? But you and I already know the answer!??? So for example it is well know that living in a house, apt, dwelling, causes upwards of 40% of the green house gases. Passenger cars less than 20%. But if you live in NYC and you do not own a car.... Guess what, as a resident closer to 100% of the green house gas emissions is caused by living there !!!!! ;)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    environmentalists do not even believe their OWN press

    That's another fallacy - environmentalists fight like cats and dogs over policy and direction as much as any other group.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Ah as in put up the environmental New England wind turbine farm? Nope, not in our back yard... says MA Senator Ted Kennedy, Nimby ist ? It is a CLASSIC demonstration of what I have said !!!

    But really it is nothing different than: do as I say, not as I do.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Which makes for a nice sideshow, but has little to do with the issue of whether the climate is warming and if so, whether humans are causing it.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Well, yes and no. There are a host of mitigation procedures (questionable value but ) of high cost, put into place with no real measure of how and what it actually mitigates.

    Another is IF C02 emissions ARE the evils incarnate, why is there no siren call (you know like a President Kennedy mandate to go to the moon in less than xxx years (whatever time frame he said)) to a host of C02 EATING applications!!!! Bio diesel from algae?? Watching paint dry gets more attention and probably more scientific application !!??
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Yep, some people also argue that windmills change the surface flow, especially over water, and thus make warming worse by increasing evaporation.

    It all makes for interesting reading, at least the studies kicking around causes and solutions do.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Yep, some people also argue that windmills change the surface flow, especially over water, and thus make warming worse by increasing evaporation.

    And there is the Audubon Society trying to block wind generation to protect the Raptors. In the same issue they lament MM CC. I just posted how Coal is gaining in the percentage of our electricity. Most everyone believes, myself included, that is probably one of the largest producers of GHG in the World today. The same article claims that Wind Generation has the best chance of being cost effective for the future. Yet in all of So CA the Indian reservations are the only places we could place Wind generators. That is because they are not subject to the Whacked out environmentalist that have a strangle hold on this state. One agency mandates renewable energy and another blocks it. Both charging big dollars for non compliance.

    The last issue of our local paper has a big article about a company that would like to place test towers in possible locations to find if it is feasible for wind generation. The county has the authority to give a limited use permit that costs a couple hundred dollars and takes no time. Instead the board is pushing for a full blown permit with all associated studies that take a minimum of one year and a cost of $100,000. The company is about to bail out of here. Can you blame them?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    If the people who want to build stuff don't pay for permits, then the taxpayers wind up paying all the planner's salaries. Most people like to have a bit of planning and zoning so their dream home doesn't wind up next to a CAFO or gravel pit. So most counties shift permitting and impact fees to the developers, whether they are proposing windfarms or subdivisions.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    These are temporary test towers. They are not wind generators. It is loaded with test gear to determine if the site is usable for Wind. Has nothing to do with a permanent wind farm that would require all the studies and permit fees. This is a case of people pulling strings to block wind generation in their area. They are noisy up to a mile away. And most people would not want that. Of course solar fields are not likely to be established as the cost of private land is too high to justify their being built. It takes about 5 acres of land for each megawatt of solar PV cells. Land is far too valuable except in the desert for that to be feasible. The desert eco systems are far too fragile to disrupt them with PV cells covering the 1000s of acres needed to generate the kind of electricity that will be significant. Solar on top of buildings is good though very limited in reducing the need for electricity. More coal is the only answer as we are on the verge of a large push for EVs by this government.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    If they are noisy, why would I want a test tower next door, much less a permanent one? And why would I want to pay for the studies to determine that with my tax dollars? Let the developer pay.

    You should invest in indium if you think solar panels are going to fix a significant portion of the power issue. Or find an alternative for that element.

    Why sustainable power is unsustainable (New Scientist)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I guess the only solution is more and bigger Coal generators. There is no chance of depleting our coal for several hundred years. They paint a real bleak picture for solar energy. Besides they are a worse eyesore than Wind generators. When they get about 10 years old and are peeling up as one of our neighbors cells are they really take on a ghetto kind of appearance.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Oregon's governor seeks "restrictions and prohibitions on the sale and distribution of after-market motor vehicle parts, including but not limited to tires, if alternatives are available that decrease greenhouse gas emissions from motor vehicles"

    Oregon Governor Looking to Ban Aftermarket Parts
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It will make a great black market for used auto parts. My neighbor bought out a auto parts store here. He has over 700 items at a time on eBay. Wonder if Oregon will send there boots out to the flea markets and arrest all the auto parts sellers there. For all you folks that think that the USSR was a great system. We are headed in that direction.

    I can tell you right off that a cleaner alternative to new tires is walking or riding a bike. So that should eliminate any repairs on cars. I know when my step dad was alive living in Medford he lamented the Californians that came up to Oregon and corrupted it like CA.
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,310
    "...Most people like to have a bit of planning and zoning..."

    A BIT of planning and zoning is not the problem. The problem comes when you combine anti-anything zealots and petty dictator bureaucrats and bring all progress to a crawl or a dead stop. Then it is the taxpayer who pays the extra cost developers just pass on to the final user.

    I think I have mentioned my battle to try to put a card table in front of my farm to sell a few tomatoes to the neighbors. Even though my activity was specifically allowed by the zoning laws, it took 6 months and $2000 to get approval. That is not reasonable planning, that is abusive government.

    When some clown with a picket sign or some filthy rat can cost people their livelyhoods I say government has gotten out of hand. When you have two government agencies issuing contrdictory rules and then fining people because they can't do the impossible it rises to the level of insanity.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Crewman On Ted Kennedy Yacht Dumps Oil Into Nantucket Sound
    By Rob on March 15, 2008 at 05:42 pm


    Not content to merely pollute the halls of Congress with eau de Cutty Sark, Ted Kennedy has taken to polluting Nantucket Sound as well.

    Ted Kennedy has called Nantucket Sound near his Massachusetts estate “a national treasure” — but that didn’t stop the senator from having oil dumped from his yacht into its waters.

    A local photographer spotted an oil slick coming from Kennedy’s yacht Mya as Kennedy and his guests left the vessel in a launch following a race that ended in Hyannis, the Cape Cod Today newspaper reported.

    The lensman was so shocked that he rowed his dinghy out to question the crew member left aboard the yacht.

    He asked the crewman, “What the hell are you doing?”

    The crewman said that diesel fuel had gotten into the bilge and he was told to dump it.

    When the photographer pointed out that the yacht was moored in coastal waters near shellfish beds and people swimming, the crewman replied, “Whatever.”

    I’m sure the environmentalists will give Teddy the same pass on this that they’re giving him on his opposition to coastal windmills that, while producing clean energy, might block his ocean view.

    But hey, at least nobody drowned this time.


    And this is one of the guys that would like to charge me for putting a little CO2 in the air from my SUV.

    http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/Kennedy_polluter/2008/03/14/80443.html
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Interesting that a sailing vessel has such powerful alternate power sources. They also could have docked it and had an evaculation service transfer the offending waste to a tanker pumper truck.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Why didn't the photographer report it to the Coasties? Dumping that stuff is a crime. The photographer is close enough to talk to the crewman but his photos are so bad he has to put red arrows on them to show the slick? He took the photos in 2002 so he waited 6 years to send them to the publisher? They're anonymous photos that don't prove squat at this point.

    The whole story smells worse than your old TDI did.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    "The whole story smells worse than your old TDI did. "

    By local governments own assertions it is the 5% of GASSER cars who make that kind of mess !! :P
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I was actually curious about the origin of the Kennedy yachts. Are they all American made? That oil dump story came up on several sites. I did not see any indication that it was not current event. Waiting 6 years would be odd, unless he was trying to extort money from old money bags Ted.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The story came up on several "conservative" sites. :shades: Groping for a story that doesn't look to be there. The blogger who got the photos is already involved in a libel suit but that's about as tenuous a connection as 6 year old grainy photos.

    Here's the source story.

    In the world of autos and global warming, Bob "Global Warming is a Crock" Lutz is retiring.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My guess is the whole deal on the diesel dumping was hushed up by the clan.

    Bob Lutz is tired of the senseless regulations and mandates by a totally inept Government. Global Warming being the straw that breaks the camels back. He probably did not want the Feds deciding how much he would get paid either.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    It would have been interesting to see how much gold would have been stuffed into his parachute to get him to make the leap.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    In the world of autos and global warming, Bob "Global Warming is a Crock Lutz is retiring.

    At least he got the global warming part right !!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,310
    "...I have a question..."

    I have a question too. Since you just joined Edmunds today and have posted the same question on multiple boards, why haven't the hosts figured you out as a promoter of that bogus gas saving gizmo? :mad:

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Believe it or not, we hosts aren't around 24/7. It just seems that way most of the time. :shades:

    If the lag time gets too long before we notice a spammer, shoot us an email.

    Meanwhile, "two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." It Doesn't Take An Einstein.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    I'm guessing the wildfires down under and the volcano about to erupt will cause more damage to global warming than all the cars in the US for a year. Then again I'm sure someone has the facts. I'm speculating.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Well the facts are, they already have the facts. Indeed a history channel show did a virtual overlay of the earths tectonic (not sure of the spelling) plates,( which was (up until the Navy declassified it) probably top secret), showing all the fissures; - looks like the stitching on an old softball/base ball. Most importantly which as you probably guessed, emits 24/7 for hundreds if not thousands of miles and for literally hundreds of millions of years- if not BILLIONS of years.

    While we want to think of ourselves as god-like to satan-like in our human powers.... nothing could be farther from the truth.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Too bad you can't take them on most of the streets in CA. I want to see Pelosi and Reid driving back and forth to their office in a golf cart. Who are they kidding. These will all be strategically placed at favored golf courses around the country.

    The $838 billion economic stimulus bill that passed the Senate yesterday contains $300 million for the government to purchase a fleet of "green" cars.

    But the money won't just go to buy fuel-efficient hybrids such as the Ford Escape or Chevy Volt.

    The cash also can be used to purchase "neighborhood electric vehicles."

    The NEVs, which resemble streamlined golf carts, scoot at up to 25 mph, operate on battery power and can be plugged into 110-volt outlets for charging.

    They are sometimes used at hospitals, college campuses and retirement communities, and can cost around $8,000 each. They don't produce carbon emissions.

    The House-passed version of the stimulus provides even more money for federal car purchases - $600 million. The pot of money also specifically includes the NEVs.


    That is about 75,000 golf carts. I think it is designed to give jobs to out of work UAW people. Where are most of the Golf Carts built?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    AlGore can talk to birds. He got them to start migrating farther North:

    Audubon Society study bird migration shift to climate change

    There was a time when the American goldfinch, a gregarious nesting bird, could be found in backyard feeders throughout Houston. But now, as climate change seems to be leaving its first footprints here, the bird is slowly moving its territory to the north.

    The goldfinch’s subtle shift is hardly unique. Of 305 species tracked by the Audubon Society, more than half are spending the winter about 35 miles farther north than they did 40 years ago, according to a study to be released today.

    The changes in migration coincide with variations in temperature over time, suggesting that many birds are responding to climate change by moving into new ranges, the researchers said. The average January temperature, for example, climbed by about 5 degrees Fahrenheit in the United States over the four decades covered in the study.

    Plants and animals have always had to adjust to shifting climates, and birds have moved for a variety of reasons, ranging from urban sprawl to deforestation. But the Audubon study covers a variety of species throughout North America, prompting researchers to suspect that larger forces are at work in their changing migration habits.

    “This is as close as science at this scale gets to proof,” said Greg Butcher, the lead scientist on the study and the director of bird conservation at the Audubon Society. “It is not what each of these individual birds did. It is the wide diversity of birds that suggests it has something to do with temperature, rather than ecology.”

    Terry Root, a Stanford University biologist who worked on the study, said the researchers “don’t know for a fact that it is warming. But when one keeps finding the same thing over and over … we know it is not just a figment of our imagination.”

    The research is based on data collected during the Audubon Society’s annual bird count in early winter, when temperature is the primary driver for birds’ migration and survival.


    That AlGore, he's a sneaky baasterd..........must have shown his movie at a bird sanctuary...........
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The Special Olympics are in town so there's extra security up at the ski hill (usually there's none :) ).

    Anyway, a sheriff's deputy was cruising around the parking lot this afternoon in a silent rig - sort of a cross between a golf cart and one of those bigger ATV things for ranch work. It would be perfect for running around town, although this one was open on the sides to the elements. It probably costs as much as a Hyundai Rio or Nissan Versa too.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Right !! Stop Global Warming... SAVE T REX !!!! :)
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