Lexus LS 460/LS 460L News, Views and Opinions

ljflx

Let's huddle here for a general discussion, call it a home board, for the LS460 and LS460L and discuss what we like or dislike about the car, why you would buy/lease it, why you wouldn't buy/lease it, and other general data points and speculation about the car (if and when will we get AWD, for example) plus any lease or buy price deals you are negotiating if you are a buyer or potential buyer. As well chime in with any news or rumors from people in the know or car mags about future enhancements of the car later in the model year or in ensuing years (new nav system upgrades, larger engine displacement, AWD (again), will there be performance versions offered, etc etc). LS600HL has it's own board and probably should stay separate unless members think otherwise. As well it still has a lot of speculative data concerning its price and other specialty options whereas the LS460 and 460L are now "real" time cars.

tricky73

hage57:

Note there are several comments on the following link re quality and reliability: Lexus LS 460 Owner Experiences (Post #503.) I am having problems with mine, including wind noise although it seems more pronounced on the passenger side. Would love for you to keep us informed as you accumulate miles and experience.

slexy1

I still love my LS 430 EuroSport edition that was an option for under $200 in 2001. The new Sport Suspension option has more to it, and is $2,985. It is called the "Touring Package", which is ONLY available on the LS 460L (from what the official Lexus website shows): http://www.lexus.com/models/LS/features/pricing.html

But, check out the fine print at the bottom of the LS 460L page (link is to the right of the LS 460 just under the photo). See disclaimer #'s 17 & 18. It looks like the 17 & 18 in. tires may get "substantially less than 15,000 miles, the brake pads less than 20,000, and the rotors less than 50,000 miles for the special tires and brakes that come with that "Touring Package". I wonder how many LS 460L buyers will know or care about the trade off of improved handling and braking for increased maintainence costs?

nvbanker

I have 34,000 miles on my 18in tires and they're only about half gone so far.

excelsior88

On the LS 430 they had a similar disclaimer about tire life being less...

ljflx

That's unusual. Most of these tires don't get past 25K miles. I lease with 45-60K 3 year deals so I tend to swap out tires at 25-35K miles. Better to get your money's worth out of new tires (immediate improvement in ride and handling on the new installs) rather than put them on with a few months left in the lease, so faster wear tires are not an issue for me.

BTW - Being drawn to all the new gizmos on the car I didn't notice what type of tires Lexus is putting on the car at this early stage. I hope they are Michelins rather than the Dunlops they've favored the last few years. Anyone pay attention to tires on the LS460 and 460L?

ikey78

I have seen five new LS's. Four had Dunlop Sport Maxx A1 A/S and one had Bridgestone Turanza.

hendjaz

The four with the Dunlop A/S were probably regular L versions while the Turanza may have been the Touring version if it was the Turanza summer tire. The Touring L package comes with 19" summer tires rather than A/S.

ikey78

None of the cars I saw had the touring package. The one with the Bridgestone Turanza EL 42 was a 460 SWB. The others with the Dunlops were a mix of SWB and LWB

Tirerack lists all of the OEM tires as follows.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/SelectTireSize.jsp?autoMake=Lexus&autoModel=LS460L- - &autoYear=2007&autoModClar=Standard+Model

garyh1

On the LS 430 they had a similar disclaimer about tire life being less...

Interestingly, I seem to recall that Lexus never changed the footnote on limited tire life when they switched from 18" summer tires option on the 2004 LS to 18" all-season tires on the '05. Although both are low-profile, I believe the all-season tires last significantly longer than the summer tires; but knowing Toyota/Lexus' overly legalistic approach to everything, they probably decided to keep the disclaimer unchanged so nobody could have any possible basis to complain.

From the folks who brought you the requirement to press "I Agree" every time you start the car, make the navigation system unusable when moving, put ugly stickers on the visors that can't be removed, etc., etc.

nvbanker

I hope they are Michelins rather than the Dunlops they've favored the last few years. Anyone pay attention to tires on the LS460 and 460L?

I'm a Michelin fan - but Consumer Report rated the Dunlops higher, surprisingly. Whatever that means. Price could be a factor with them too.

I saw Bridgestones on the new 460 I drove. I don't like that - I'm still bitter over the Firestone/Explorer disaster, and Bridgestone (Firestone's parent) just stonewalled and refused to admit liability until forced too. Why Lexus would buy their tires for their cars is beyond me. Probably were I to buy a new 460 that had Bridgestones on it, I'd demand they switch them to the Dunlops.

excelsior88

Thx for the info! I didn't know that the LS 430 '04s-'06s had better tire life than expected, given the warning.

garyh1

Actually, to be accurate I think the '04 LS had the option of 18" summer tires that do in fact have a very short life and deserve the low mileage warning; the '05 and '06 had optional 18" all-season tires that last longer than the summer tires - although probably not as long as the 17" regular tires (which are not low-profile).

jd14

The long wheelbase model when ordered with the Executive Seating option can push into the mid 90s. The Hybrid will exceed the 100K Ultra-Luxury mark when loaded. While Lexus has moved way up in the pricing, they are still providing a bargain deal when compared to the Germans. Hybrid V8 gets combined mpg in the high 20s and 0-60 in under 5 seconds, making it faster than any of the Germans while returning close to double the fuel economy. Luxury features are pretty close on all of them as well, and space is nearly identical. In the end, the LS will end up saving you a hefty 30K over the V12 (or W12) competition. Lexus is the SMART way to go. Period.

ljflx

More than likely the LS600HL fully optioned will equal or outprice the BMW 760LI. I doubt the car - fully loaded saves more than $15-20K off an MB S600. The LS460L fully optioned now reaches price points that are $10-15K above a BMW 750LI and not all that much cheaper than an S550 loaded up. But Lexus has also left the prices low enough for value seekers as well - by not stuffing everything down your throat - and letting you decide on options. So it's the best of both worlds. You choose the lux options of your choice rather than have most of them chosen for you. But only if you pass on options is the value still really there.

ljflx

Blockbuster quarter at Toyota - so now we know why there were no reported LS shipments in September and only half a month reported for October. With numbers like this you defer revenue, and then defer and defer some more. Next quarter will be huge also - reporting only half a month of LS shipments in October was a tell tale sign. Europe is beginning to fall their way now as well.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/061107/earns_japan_toyota.html?.v=10

idele

I got back from Tokyo a week ago. The LS is doing extremely well in Japan. The Lexus dealer in Tokyo I visited this time was, as usual, company owned and the sales staff consists of Toyota employees. Communicating in English was more difficult at this dealer than at the other two I've visited on earlier trips, but they were enormously helpful and courteous. I obtained the Japanese LS460/LS460L catalog (hard bound) for my local dealer which appears to include more options than are available here. Also full price lists for corporate options and dealer options. I'll leave it to my dealer, who requested me to get the literature, to sort things out. The LS looks better than its photographs.

jd14

An S600 costs more than $140K base. However, I do understand that the base is already loaded, and that small things like wheels are the only thing that can possibly make the car reach higher prices. Add the $3,000 gas guzzler tax and you're looking at $143K. Unless the LS600H L will reach $123K (more than double the base price of the LS460), it will save you more than 20K off a Mercedes. In addition, a BMW 750Li is $103K loaded, making it far more expensive than an LS460 L, even with the Executive seating option. Not really sure how you came up with the LS460 L as being more money than the 750Li. Perhaps you were pricing a 750i?

Anyway, my point is that the LS is still a GREAT bargain, no matter what level of options you decide to load it up with.

ljflx

First time I've seen them in action. One conservative guy was doing about 60 mpgh on the Garden State Patkway here in NJ. Another guy was flying on the same road at about 80. The car looks great in motion. Beautiful silhouette and very dynamic. Then I came home and found out that my friend who has a Euro edition LS430 just leased an $86K LS460L for around $1400 (tax included) a month on a 3 year 15K mile lease. He couldn't drive a discount but got the dealer to throw in $700 toward an after market $1900 DVD rear entertainment system with the screens embedded in the had rest. He gets the car with the DVD system installed next week. All of this is killing me as late March looks too far away. I want this car in my garage ASAP and when he takes me for a spin in the new car next week that craving is going to get worse.

ljflx

Not sure how you got to $103K. On the BMW site I couldn't build a 7 past about $84K.

Per Edmunds you can get the 7 to the mid 90's if all of these options are included and are allowed at the same time.

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/bmw/7series/100528421/options.html?action=1&x=50- - &y=11

I do think you will see an LS600HL $120K configuration.

jd14

MSRP $78,100
Options and accessories $24,675
Destination charge $695
Total price as built* $103,470

That's directly from bmwusa.com
Go there yourself, customize the 750Li so that it includes every option (Make sure to select everything from all four tabs under options and both pages for Convenience). No tricks like allowing options to be selected twice is needed. I thought you liked the LS, why are you trying to say that it doesn't provide value?

Also, do you really think the 600H L will hit 120K? That seems to be a little less of a great value, but the prestige factor gets major bonus points if this is true. I guess it's still a darn good deal though since it's essentially competing with the 12s for power.

ljflx

I think there will be custom options that get it to $120K. With an LS460L that tops out at 96-97K I'm sure we'll see the LS600HL easily top $110K and may get to $120K. That NY Times $125K figure is still in the back of my mind.

jd14

The LS460 L tops out at 94.8K. You aren't the first person I know who has talked about the custom options on the LS600H L. What exactly are these "custom options" that are unique to the 600? Will any of them be transferred over to the 460 within the coming years?

anthonyp

I wonder if anyone has just possibly factored in the risk if the technology advances and the diesel takes off, how much money an owner of the new tech.Lexus 600 may loose? The stakes are very high now....Tony

ljflx

And if it goes the other way with battery becoming dominant what hapens to diesel buyers?? IMO - the risk is the opposite of what you think. Batteries are at an infant stage and are next gen and will get better and better as they get cheaper and cheaper. Think computer power. Diesel is a re-invention of something that failed in the US and still has tons of issues for a public who has a poor perception of them in the first place. Their main asset was longevity and in these days of leases I don't see that as a strong selling point, nor one that plays into the mint money lux business model auto makers have created. On the other hand batteries that are contnually improved in a developing technology play perfectly into today's auto business model in the same way that you needed or just plain had to have a new PC every few years. Think about it. This is already a done deal.

The future of cars is electric with the electric displacement becoming 80% of the power source and gas used to boost power and recharge the battery. This is clearly where Toyota is going. They want to pioneer the electric car in mass production. Diesel is past generation and has inherent issues that IMO will prevent it from ever getting established well. Just watch how issue after issue on diesel safety - from carcinogens to clean air - take center stage.

BTW - how can a car that has 450HP and gets mileage in the 25-30 range lose anyway? They'll always be a buyer for such a car assuming an owner even wants to sell it.

idele

The Toyota/Lexus hybrid system can accomodate a diesel, gas turbine or a fuel cell stack in place of a gasoline ICE. We have already seen battery improvements in the Prius and battery improvements will continue but the real future is in large scale capacitors in place of batteries. I currently own a GS450h and I'm looking forward to the LS600h. Toyota/Lexus has created a new paradigm in automotive powerplants and it takes time for the public to understand it. I'm off to my Lexus dealer today to deliver the LS460 catalog and price lists (in Japanese) that I picked up in Tokyo recently. Detailed pricing of every option is given (in yen, of course).

rennybosch

Most Reliable Luxury Car

Most reliable (Best score first)
2006 Lexus LS
Infiniti M*

Least reliable (Worst score first)
Cadillac STS (V8)
2006 Mercees-Benz S-class
Mercedes-Benz CLS*
Mercedes-Benz E-class sedan
BMW 7-series
Jaguar S-type

anthonyp

ljflx--thanks for the input...I personally am not interested in deasel, and the short amout of driving the 400h was not terrably impressive...BUT the 600 may be a totally different experience...I like the concept, but am afraid of the purchasing experience...I would imagine the best way to go would be a lease to start with...Tony ps Get one half a drop of diesel on your hand and smell it for the rest of the day, and also anything you may be unfortunate to touch will carry the scent for a long time...

syswei

Wanted to be sure you guys saw the video toward the bottom of this article.

Enjoy!

ljflx

Tony - that's the beauty of leasing. If the car looks like a risk put that risk on the manufactiurer as long as the price of the lease looks reasonablle. If it's not reasonable find something else to buy. Funny thing going on with the majority of early Lexus LS460 sales so far - the $65K - $73K cars are leasing, the $80K+ cars are being bought outright.

ljflx

Looks like MB's new S design still needs a lot of reliability improvements. Maybe they still can't get the electronics right. IMO - I seriously doubt the Europeans will ever master electronics and that will keep their reliabilty down.

ljflx

Funny - looks like the guys in the car are ready to fight with each other. But that's a back-in vs parallel park so was that the right set-up?. This is a feature that was purely a marketing item as far as I'm concerned. It gets press and raises brand awareness for a feature that is not needed. But they did show it on Fox news and the car parked perfectly in Manhattan on live TV.

lexus111

I just ordered a LWB that I will find out on Monday when it may arrive... The only way the car seems to be available with the options that I wanted also seems to only come with the park assist. I live in Vegas and we don't have a need to parallel park here more than once a decade. Unfortunatley it comes with it anyway. I will post my findings about the parking when I get the car. The video IS funny though. IMO this feature is for marketing only and has a long ways to go before it will become a useful item in the real world. I believe that most people looking to purchase this car are above average drivers and can park the car themselves A LOT faster. The ones that aren't will also not know how to set-up the auto-park feature anyway and will also continue to watch the blinking clock on their VCR's not knowing how to set that either.

Either way still a great marketing idea and since I am now buying one, anything that will keep up the value of this car works for me.

jd14

When you get your LWB LS on Monday would you please post your comments about the legroom, footwell, and trunkspace. Many people have had different opinions on these matters.

tagman

And if it goes the other way with battery becoming dominant what hapens to diesel buyers?? IMO - the risk is the opposite of what you think.

ljflx - because it is you , I will post this.

You should consider that diesels have been increasing sales faster on a percentage basis than hybrids for a number of months now, and that's with the limited selection that exists currently. Once the selection increases, and it WILL significantly, the percentage growth is projected to take off . . . and it WILL.

Also, there is the issue of infrastructure. There are many pumps and pumping stations all throughout the land, and there are very large interests in this revenue producing business. Even some of the big ag businesses have taken interest, because diesels can burn fuels from fossil sources OR agriculture sources . . . both HUGE businesses.

Either way, the diesels represent a way to keep the pumps flowing, and still deliver enormous fuel economy. The German diesel alliance will target the U.S. market soon with a marketing blitz unlike anything ever seen in this country.

I am not saying that the hybrid is dead, but the risk has indeed increased more for the hybrid recently, and will continue to be at an elevated level as we move forward, at LEAST for a number of years, while the new diesel products come to market and gather momentum and major advertising dollars.

Like it or not, modern diesels will become the "hot" player for a quite a number of years . . . and this time frame coincides with your potential ownership of the LS600hL. Risk? Oh yeah, plenty, sorry to say.

Fact is that the diesels are coming, and the hybrids will be affected. There is no way around this. I wish I could tell you otherwise. Especially since you are about to place some serious green into a hybrid. Personally, I have changed my thinking, and if it were me in your situation, I would pause for reconsideration of this purchase. But whatever you do, I certainly hope the best for you.

TagMan

pat

This discussion isn't about hybrids, diesels, etc., so let's keep that in mind... Thanks.

lexus111

I have already seen the trunk space on a LWB just like the one that I requested with the reclining rear seats. If there is much of any difference in trunk space it could only be a couple of inches at most. The dealer did confirm that his understanding was that the Hybrid would definitely have a more noticeable difference but wasn't sure how much.
BTW I ordered the LWB yesterday which it will then take a few days to let me know when I can expect delivery which may be anywhere from a few days to up to a month depending upon availability.

cyclone4

Wow! I was wondering where everybody was gathering to discuss the new LS. The First Drives and Styling Impression LS forums have been almost totally dead the past couple weeks. Everything has been scattered all over the place. But it seems that this is now the forum to discuss the new LS. I found this forum by accident. I was lurking at the HELM forum this morning and the Host had a link for the various sedans including the new LS. By the way, the HELM is now closed. There are others like myself that are probably still wondering where everybody is. I know that Dr Fill, for example, is "lost and disappointed".

I am going to wait until the spring to see what Lexus is going to do about AWD possibilities on the LS460L. I assume there is no new news on this front. As some of you know, I really want the LS600HL but I don't think I can cope with a tiny trunk. More will be revealed in the next several months.

pat

New discussion courtesy of syswei: High End Luxury Vehicles.

syswei

Hey, those of you who were boycotting the old HELM forum, consider this an invitation to join the new HELV forum. At last try it out...maybe it will turn out to be a more civil place than the old hangout.

anthonyp

I made a mistake, and thought I was writing about the 600h, therefore the hybred vs diesel engine was of interest to me...I couldn`t find my post so went to my name for `recent posts` and found out the mistake...Things will settle down shortly---Thanks for understanding Tony

cyclone4

Thank you for the invitation. I hope it is very successful and civil.

pat

It will be - we just need to make sure of it!

nvbanker

That's hysterical, syswei!! Exactly what I expected in the real world, BTW. Kind of like voice command, where she almost never gets the right command, but does something else instead. Neat feature, if you're a Lexus engineer, probably.....OR have the perfect parking space.

jl618

According to the brochure, laminated side glass in the rear is standard on the LS 460 L, but not available on the SWB.

Does anyone know why?

If for noise reduction, I would have thought it would have been available on both models.

merc1

Looks like MB's new S design still needs a lot of reliability improvements. Maybe they still can't get the electronics right. IMO - I seriously doubt the Europeans will ever master electronics and that will keep their reliabilty down.

The recent Consumer Reports data is for the outgoing 2006 S-Class, not the new 2007 S-Class (S550).

M

kh9079

Nice to read all the different opinions here. Is anyone going from Bmw or MB to Lexus now? I've test driven the 5 & 7 series(sorta overkill w/ the features but like the room) and like them and also the Gs and Ls very luxurious. I'm going to check out MB E or S series but honestly the looks seems a bit older for me (35). Anyway I've heard about the maintenance issues w/ MB and BMW and I'm hearing that the Lexus is the one to go with. does anyone agree with that or have experienced b or bmw?

atlas7

Spoke with my Lexus rep today, considering a new LS460. He says the 460L is outselling the SWB 2 to 1. Lexus initial projections were that 80% of the buyers would be SWB.

ljflx

You know Edmunds has almost become out of sight out of mind for me with this crazy switching and alternate boards thing. Half the boards I used to peruse don't even show up anymore when I log onto Edmunds and I don't even know how that happened. Given the dearth of posts it seems I'm not alone on this. Anyway that is the same thing I'm hearing at my dealership. They were actually arguing with Japan the other day because they have a 75/25 split in LWB orders to SWB orders and the next month shipments due in were 50-50. I'm not surprised at this as the Lexus rep at the auto show told me updated research showed customers were 65-35 in favor of LWB to SWB. Lexus is hurting somebody here as these cars are going full sticker to $95K and a minimum of $81K. I stopped in Friday when my GX was in for service. The only cars they had - and this is a big volume guy - were a SWB and a LWB demo.

Still can't get anything firm on AWD. The manager at my shop who I know well was really annoyed. He has a number of others pestering him on both AWD and the sport touring edition plus the LS600HL and he can't get answers from HQ. I'm bothering him on all three of those editions.

cyclone4

Keep on bothering him lj. We especially need to know more information on the AWD possibility for the LS460L and more details on the LS600HL. How could they be so wrong on their estimates for LWB vs, SWB LS? Why didn't they ask my opinion? I would have set them straight ;-).

I totally agree with you about the new structure on the Edmunds forums. I will say no more.

pfkennedy

The price difference between the LWB and the SWB is not as great as it initially appears. When one factors in options that most people want (comfort package, nav, ML) come standard on the LWB, you realize the price difference is really about $5k. What surprised me is that the air suspension is not available in the SWB. That caused me to start thinking about getting the LWB, even though I really don't think my kids need the additional room in the rear (and I'd rather that they not have the controls for the sound system). Perhaps I should wait, give up on air suspension, and the dealers will start to discount the SWB if the demand is mostly for the LWB. Is there a strong bias that the air suspension is worth it?