Full-size pickup sales - F-150 best selling truck, but for how much longer?



  • beliasbelias Member Posts: 316
    I think Ford trucks are pretty decent, but they're definitely dated compared to the competition (Dodge is dated too). Payload is high because it is essentially a "HD" version, but no way can it pull 11K safely. I test drove the GMC, Toyota, Dodge, Ford, and Nissan, and there was no question that the most lethargic of all of the trucks was the F150. Every other vehicle felt considerably stronger. So, while it may "technically" be able to pull that amount, there is no way you're going to be confident doing it or enjoy driving with that kind of load. At that point you should be looking at a 3/4 or 1 ton anyway... especially if you're doing that on a regular basis.
    Still, Ford sells a lot, but sales for their trucks are continually dropping. The housing market is taking its toll and gas prices aren't helping. By 2009, there will be a pickup (pardon the pun) in sales, but if gas and housing construction continue to be barriers, it won't last long, and the bigger issue is whether they'll be able to come out with the same interior quality while matching it up with a much stronger powertrain at a competitive price... time will tell I guess...
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    Ok I think there is no question that GMC 6.0L, Dodge Hemi, and Toyota with the 5.7L offer more HP than the Ford 5.4 L.

    However, the Ford 5.4 is stronger then the base engins in these trucks and becaues if its much lower cost it IS the standard engine in everything but a work truck.

    Also, the Toyota 4.7 still has a timing belt? whats up with that? Anyone know the cost to replace that at 60k?
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Don;t know what the intervals are, but timing belts last longer than 60k nowadays... I'm guessing 105k like the rest of them.
  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    Who knows, peoeple have been asking that same question for years now. But at the end of every year when all the smoke clears Ford always comes out on top.

    The only one really with a chance to over take them ever is Chevrolet, Dodge never will and and there are not enough Metrosexual men in America to sell enough Toyota's for them to ever get close. It takes more then fancy mis-leading commercials to be on top in the truck market.
  • toyotafan818toyotafan818 Member Posts: 3
    lets face it all truck commercials try to make trucks look like the best.....anyways tundra is the best truck so far.
  • toyotafan818toyotafan818 Member Posts: 3
    also nobody counts the mitsubishi raider as a truck i wonder why? :lemon:
  • sleukemsleukem Member Posts: 22
    You don't need to compare the GMC 6.0L to the Ford's 5.4L when GMC's 5.3L has more HP than Ford's 5.4L!!!!!

    Also, the 5.4L is not the standard engine in everything but a work truck. You have to move up to a Lariat or FX4 before getting a standard 5.4L. There is an exception such as the XL extended cab long bed comes with the 5.4 but the XL extended cab short bed does not.
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    The GMC 5.3L is rated at 315hp and 338 lbft. The Ford 5.4L is rated at 300 hp but has 365 lbft of torque. Most people who buy trucks agree that torque is more important than hp.

    Also, the F-150 XLT with 5.4 for $895 and Trailer Tow package for $350 has a Tow and Go Discount at the bottom of the sticker of $1,000. This to me means that the 5.4L is free and it also means all dealers order their all XLTs with 5.4L engines which IMHO makes it practically standard.

  • jim04fordjim04ford Member Posts: 1
    I'm sure that most of you already know about the problems with the blown out spark plugs but thought I'd put my two cents in. Driving thru town in my '04 F150 when a loud pop noise occurred only to find out that #3 plug and coil had completely blown out of the cylinder head. The head's threads are stripped and now I am forced to have the head retapped and a new assembly installed for around $900 (although Ford wants you to buy a new cylinder head for $3500). Come to find out this is a really big problem (see consumeraffairs.com) with all the modular engines and Ford has known about it for several years and refuses to do anything about it - although they have issued a technical bulletin and have also been sued for this problem and lost. Ford needs to step up on this one or many owners will be switching to a Toyota or another more reliable vehicle in the future.
  • bugchuckerbugchucker Member Posts: 118
    Many are making the switch already.
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    As of July 2007, a TSB was published: 07-15-2

    Various 1997-2007 vehicles with a 5.4L 2V, or 6.8L 2V engine with stripped or missing spark plug port threads in modular engine aluminum heads. Ford Motor Company now authorizes LOCK-N-STITCH aluminum inserts and tool kit.

    This repair is for out of warranty repairs. For warranty work you will get the new heads.

  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJMember Posts: 3,516
    ...........Aug 07 / Aug 06 / +/- / CY 2007 / CY 2006 / +/-
    F-Series...69,220 / 76,804 / -9.9 / 481,146 / 545,963 / -11.9
    Silverado..67,486 / 51,185 / 31.8 / 425,379 / 434,937 / -2.2
    Ram........32,309 / 34,177 / -5.0 / 246,878 / 250,144 / -1.0
    Sierra.....23,574 / 17,564 / 34.2 / 138,759 / 142,129 / -2.4
    Tundra.....18,919 / 11,173 / 69.3 / 124,909 / 78,916 / 57.5
    Titan.......6,985 / 5,650 / 23.6 / 45,766 / 50,178 / -9.2
    Mark LT.......768 / 1,007 / -23.7 / 5,858 / 8,519 / -31.2

    Silverado on the F-Series' heels. The fall push will be critical for Ford, and they have two strikes against them:
    - the F150 is a lame duck
    - people are skittish about the new Powerstroke in the Super Duty trucks

    Tundra and Sierra are in a serious dogfight for 4th place.

    kcram - Pickups Host
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    We are basically out of 07s.

  • sleukemsleukem Member Posts: 22
    The GMC 5.3L is rated at 315hp and 338 lbft. The Ford 5.4L is rated at 300 hp but has 365 lbft of torque. Most people who buy trucks agree that torque is more important than hp.

    Also, the F-150 XLT with 5.4 for $895 and Trailer Tow package for $350 has a Tow and Go Discount at the bottom of the sticker of $1,000. This to me means that the 5.4L is free and it also means all dealers order their all XLTs with 5.4L engines which IMHO makes it practically standard.

    In your previous post, you were talking about "horsepower." When I pointed out the Chevy 5.3 L had more horses than the 5.4 L, you start talking about torque and how much more important it is. That's all well and good but you weren't talking about torque originally.

    Also, you stated all dealers order the XLT trucks with the 5.4 L because it's "free." I don't know about the discount you are talking about but I do know not all XLT Fords have the 5.4.
  • steevosteevo Member Posts: 389
    GM allows Ford to have the number 1 slot. The Chevy and GMC trucks are essentially the same vehicle and combined sales have been greater than Ford for years.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    was a slouch empty. I can just imagine what it would be like to drive it with the advertised 3050 lbs. of payload. Well I guess they can advertise what ever they want no one said they had to pull it with any gusto.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Doing the job. We didn't say doing it well.

    You'll figure it out! Buyer beware. :P

  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    3050 payload is an option on only a few models, and not avaialble on the F-150 Super Crew you drove.

  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    Ahhh ok it sucked empty. Now all I have to do is imagine a regular cab longbed with a 3050 lb payload....
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    If that is why you are buying a truck, Ford is not building a truck for you.

    The F-150 uses the most expensive truck frame on the market today and it is by far the strongest. It is Hydroformed under engine and cab and fully boxed from front to rear.

    The Tundra frame is welded where it is boxed and c-channel the rest of the way.

    The F-150 uses fully boxed cross beams that pass through the frame rail and are welded on each side.

    The Tundra uses stamped cross beams that are riveted.

    The fact is that the F-150 is much more likely to be the truck that rides like new at 200,000 miles.

    Also the 4.7 V8 on Tundra STILL uses a timing belt.

  • fueledupfueledup Member Posts: 64
    on your last post you mentioned the tundra uses a timing belt as opposed to timing chain. do you happen to know if the nissan titan uses a chain or belt. am deciding between the 5.3 silverado and the titan to purchase. i assume the chevy uses chain?
  • 1offroader1offroader Member Posts: 208
    Chevy motors use a different design, they are pushrod activated valves and not DOHC and therefore they use a timing CHAIN as opposed to a belt. Under normal circumstances the chain on Chevy V-8s does not need to be replaced.

  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    Titan also uses a chain
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJMember Posts: 3,516
    The September numbers:

    Sep 07 / Sep 06 / +/- / CY 2007 / CY 2006 / +/-
    F-Series / 56,065 / 70,822 / -20.8 / 537,211 / 616,785 / -12.9
    Silverado / 52,480 / 51,964 / 5.0 / 477,859 / 486,901 / -1.9
    Ram / 30,100 / 25,081 / 20.0 / 276,978 / 275,225 / 1.0
    Sierra / 18,445 / 17,604 / 9.0 / 157,204 / 159,733 / -1.6
    Tundra / 19,571 / 12,609 / 61.4 / 144,480 / 91,525 / 57.9
    Titan / 5,193 / 6,073 / -11.1 / 50,959 / 56,251 / -9.4
    Mark LT / 795 / 1,203 / -33.9 / 6,653 / 9,722 / -31.6

    Don't go overboard - debate away!

    kcram - Pickups Host
  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    It is funny to look at those numbers yet see all over edmunds (this thread included) that Ford is losing leadership and the Tundra is going to blah blah blah, but as you can see like every year we are ahead of Chevrolet and beating the wannabe truck makers like a drum.

    Hell those numbers don't even include medium and heavy sales which we are stomping a mud hole in the competitors butt there also.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Those aren't F-150 sales numbers, those are F-series sales.

    You do know the difference, right? :sick:

    The HDs are good for around 40% of F-series sales.

    Same for the Silverado.

  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    You do know the difference, right?

    Yes but obviously you don't, that is why I put the fact that the numbers do not include medium and heady. HD's are not 40% of our sales. A HD is for your info the size of a Peterbuilt truck. YTD we have sold 30,000 medium and heavy trucks. Which are not included in those numbers What you are talking about is Super Duty trucks. If you are going to continuously bash a company at least do a little research and quit shooting from the hip and being wrong.

    F150 Light Duty Truck

    F250-550 Super Duty Truck

    F650-750 Medium Duty Truck

    Heavy Duty, the Chassis you see Fire Engines built on. Don't know if we continue the F nomenclature up that high or not
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Super Duty is HD. Diesels available. Special frames.
    There is Light-duty, and there is HD, or Super Duty. Ford never uses the term "Medium Duty", and you damn sure won't see that on their trucks!

    Ford Sales NA doesn't brake it down that way, so neither will I.

    I don't know where you got that mess from, but it is a messterpiece! :confuse:

    I've sold Ford's for 3 years, and I know the difference.

    Apparently your hips are shot! :sick:

  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJMember Posts: 3,516
    Sorry Doc... Joel is generally correct. What is commonly referred to as a "heavy duty pickup" is really a light-medium in terms of USDOT weight classes. And Ford does indeed refer to the F650-750 as medium-duty trucks. True heavy duty trucks are upper class 7 and class 8 - GVWR of over 30,000 pounds.

    That "mess" is from the federal weight class chart:

    Class 1 subclasses:
    Class A--Not greater than 1360 kg. (3,000 lbs.)
    Class B--Greater than 1360 kg. to 1814 kg. (3,001-4,000 lbs.)
    Class C--Greater than 1814 kg. to 2268 kg. (4,001-5,000 lbs.)
    Class D--Greater than 2268 kg. to 2722 kg. (5,001-6,000 lbs.)
    Class 2 subclasses:
    Class E--Greater than 2722 kg. to 3175 kg. (6,001-7,000 lbs.)
    Class F--Greater than 3175 kg. to 3629 kg. (7,001-8,000 lbs.)
    Class G--Greater than 3629 kg. to 4082 kg. (8,001-9,000 lbs.)
    Class H--Greater than 4082 kg. to 4536 kg. (9,001-10,000 lbs.)
    Class 3--Greater than 4536 kg. to 6350 kg. (10,001-14,000 lbs.)
    Class 4--Greater than 6350 kg. to 7257 kg. (14,001-16,000 lbs.)
    Class 5--Greater than 7257 kg. to 8845 kg. (16,001-19,500 lbs.)
    Class 6--Greater than 8845 kg. to 11793 kg. (19,501-26,000 lbs.)
    Class 7--Greater than 11793 kg. to 14968 kg.(26,001-33,000 lbs.)
    Class 8--Greater than 14968 kg. (33,001 lbs. and over)

    kcram - Pickups Host
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    I know what they are. Dodge has them too with the Cummins.

    GM uses HD on all trucks 3/4 ton and up (2500/3500).

    And Ford uses Super Duty for all F-250 and up.

    When you get to chassis frames, that's not even a retail sale at that point.

    Are we talking fleet or retail? I thought we were talking retail business.

  • dustykdustyk Member Posts: 2,926
    I'm sure there are a number of viable theories about the dynamics of the latest LD pick-up sales figures. The Tundra increase, while a large number, is based on an already low sales rate compared to the Chevrolet, Dodge, and Ford versions and may only mean that Toyota loyalists are responding to a much more attractive alternative, something they didn't have before the launch of the new Tundra.

    Over the years I have rarely seen a used Tundra at a Chevy, Dodge, or Ford dealership, not that that's proof of anything. But at my last visit to my Toyota dealer I saw three previous generation Tundras on their lot. I did see one 2006 Silverado, and two Titans. But no RAMs or F-150s.

    I have to say that around here the Chevy dealers seem to have plenty of stock, while Ford dealers seem to be low on trucks.

  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJMember Posts: 3,516
    That's for all vehicles, not just chassis-cab trucks. Even cars are assigned a GVWR.

    kcram - Pickups Host
  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    You said

    The HDs are good for around 40% of F-series sales.

    Which is wrong. This is a Heavy Duty truck


    Dump Trucks do not account for 40% of our truck sales.

    So I say again, please refrain from speaking of that which you are clueless on. Belive it or not there are allot of people who belive everything they read on this site.

    There are many subjects I am clueless on to, but Ford is not one of them.
  • anythingbuttoyanythingbuttoy Member Posts: 102
    Hey, is that a spy shot of the new F150??? LOL
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Who was talking about dump trucks? Or fleet? Or chassis cabs?

    I'm talking about the Super Duty HDs. The F-250/350/450. That's a retail, lucrative profit center for Ford. And is about 40% of F-series retail sales. If you contend 250-450 are not HD, that's different.

    I guess Chevy's 2500/3500 aren't HDs either, regardless of what it says on the billboards. :confuse:

  • anythingbuttoyanythingbuttoy Member Posts: 102
    Doc, what is your point anyway?
  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    I could give a rats [non-permissible content removed] what Chevy is doing. I am just trying to point out that HD trucks are not 40% of Ford truck sales.

    BTW where did you pull this 40% number from any how? I have the numbers right here in front of me and Super Duty sales (what you call HD sales for some reason) are not 40%.

    Also in another post you said that you did not know we were talking about fleet sales. Those posted #'s include fleet sales, not sure if they include Major Fleet with a FIN# or not but know for a fact they include all fleet sales.
  • dustykdustyk Member Posts: 2,926
    The US government assigns two classifications to trucks: "pick-ups" and "trucks."

    Pick-ups have two subclassifications:
    *pick-up = Light Duty
    *pick-up = Medium duty

    Trucks have four subclassifications:
    *SUV-Light Duty
    *Truck light duty = 8500 lbs. or less
    *Truck Medium Duty = 8501 to 26,000 lbs.
    *Truck Heavy Duty = 26,000 lbs. or more.

    See http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/alternate/page/forms/codes886.pdf

    In addition, the United States Department of Transportation has defined by weight capacity:

    .........min GVWR...Max GVWR
    Class 1..................6,000....Light Duty
    Class 2...6,001.....10,000....Light Duty
    Class 3..10,001.....14,000....Light Duty
    Class 4..14,001.....16,000....Medium Duty
    Class 5..16,001.....19,500....Medium Duty
    Class 6..19,501.....26,000....Medium Duty
    Class 7..26,001.....33,000....Heavy Duty
    Class 8..33,001...............Heavy Duty

    Pick-up trucks are typically found in class 1, 2, and sometimes 3.

    Medium trucks are class 4, 5, and 6.

    Heavy trucks are class 7 and 8.

    I just looked through the various brochures and documentation that Dodge, Ford, and GM gave us in 2003 (for 2004 models) when my company was making a fleet buy. Chevy and Dodge brochures use almost the same language to describe their pick-ups, "...under class 3." Ford just lumps the SuperDuty in with the F-series and says, ...Super Duty models can be equiped to class 3 service."

    Although the word "heavy duty" appears in the Ford literature to describe certain aspects of the F-series and Superduty line (..heavy duty one ton..), nowhere in the literature I have has Ford refered to a Super Duty as a "heavy duty truck."

  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    I think we can all agree that it is intuitively clear that F250/350 sales do not equal 40% of combined F150/250/350 sales with or without DrFill's concurrence.

    But, has anyone noticed that the pricing is very close between an F150 and an F250? Same thing between a Silverado 1500 and a Silverado 2500 HD. At a quick glance there is about a $1000 difference in MSRP between comparably (e.g., trim levels, not engines/frames) equipped vehicles. This makes the F250/350 or 2500HD with the superior drive train and chassis a much better deal. Take the Silverado. For a thou extra over a 1500 you get 2000 more Gross Combined Weight, a 6.0 with a 6 speed auto, and real (i.e, disc) rear brakes and heavy duty frame.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484

    Just thought I'd let you guys show what you know. :blush:

    And now we know.

  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    DR Fill, OK I accept this. I was wrong. I generalized from what I see in New England where there are far more soccer moms and dads buying F150s than there are wanna be Class 8 Truckers buying the F250 to drive to high school or to the office park and very, very few retirees, race car teams, or horse owners pulling fifth wheel trailers. I guess that when you include the red states the F250/350/450 sales take off.

    I do think that Ford markets the Super Duty very well. On the new '08s the tail gate even has the words SuperDuty stamped-in in big letters visible from a 100 yards away. That and other badging is way too gauche for the F150 crowd but very appropriate for the F250/350 buyer. I don't think GM does any where near as good a job at marketing the 2500HD. As a result most of them are sold as pure vocational vehicles whereas lots of the Super Dutys I see are more aspirational than vocational, seeing more duty at Home Depot than anything else.
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    We have a problem actually with the chrome bug guard. People don't want it because it covers up the "Super Duty" on the top of the grill.

    keep in mind that GM has all new trucks out there and they still aren't beating the F-Series.

  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    You're a good man, B.I.G. :)

    I'm just here to do my job, which is educate the people.

    Spread the word. ;)

  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    I was not disputing that fact. You said Heavy Duty sales and the link you gave is talking about Super Duty sales. In the land of Ford those are two totaly different products. Thank you for clearing the whole thing up.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    DrFill and others, your a pretty smart bunch so here is a question for you. Which F150 is a better deal?

    1) '07 ex-Budget Rental with 14K miles in dark green. This 4x4 Supercab is an XLT with no other options (no trailer package, nothing)except a bed liner. But it is an XLT with the all important power windows and locks. The local Ford store is asking 21.8K

    2) A new '07 4X4 Supercab , XLT package, with some nice options to include cloth captains chairs ($300), tinted windows, positraction type rear end ($300), MP3 sterio, 5.4 engine, and trailer towing package. The bottom line of invoice less the $4500 Ford rebate is 26K.

    Gentlemen, I think one could negotiate the used one down. I don't think that the new unit is negotiable into the holdback area.

    Whaddya think?
  • anythingbuttoyanythingbuttoy Member Posts: 102
    Get the new one. I will NEVER buy a rental return ever again. Been there, done that...Once (Chrysler product back in 1994).
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    If you can't get a great deal on a F-150 NOW, you should turn in your negotiating card!

    Tell 'em you just drove a Tundra, and watch them bend over! :blush:

    I hate dark green on pick-ups anyway, and how many people have driven the rental? Smoked in it. Eat in it. Did God knows what?

    This is an easy one. Plus you'll get a great rate from Ford!

    That's If you have to get a second-rate truck! :confuse:

  • 1offroader1offroader Member Posts: 208
    That's an outstanding deal on an outstanding new truck. Would not recommend the rental. Jump on it if you like it. I might've bought the F-150, except the seats felt like a picnic bench to my butt. Otherwise Ford makes a great truck. The market doesn't lie, despite what some people will try to "sell" you, if you get my meaning. They will try to convince you that 2 million buyers are all fools (the combined annual sales of Ford, GM, Dodge pickups) and the truck that actually sells less than 200K is actually much better. If the F-150 wasn't a great truck they wouldn't sell a zillion every year. Go with your gut.

  • jaydee07jaydee07 Member Posts: 1
    How does this deal sound?A new 07, F150 XLT, Reg Cab which has the extra room behind the front seats and 2 doors as well. It's a 4x4, 8 cyl and the starting price was 22,695. What do you think? I haven't seen the truck yet as it's in another state. I like the size of the regular cab and the 6'5" bed. Any opinions are welcomed and appreciated.

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