Subaru Forester (up to 2005)

xccoachlou

From Edmunds... January 2003 Long Term Test Report.

If it has the leather, it is an automatic, right?

- Lou

c_hunter

I think both vehicles are safe. The features on the XS will make it brake better (rear discs) and lessen the odds of getting stuck (LSD), but the Forester X is already much safer than average vehicles. If the Forester X is an 8 out of 10, the XS is a 9 out of 10. In other words, I think the basic safety of each vehicle is quite good. I wouldn't get hung up on that as a buying issue.

I think you would have to be hammering the brakes repeatedly to notice a major difference between the X and XS. And personally, I feel that the LSD is only going to matter if you're really about to get "stuck". Those situations are probably rare for most of us.

Craig

taft4

I have a 2003 XS Forester with automatic and when I see some of the MPG figures posted here I have my doubts. I have a feeling some of the mileage figures posted are fantasies of the mind. I recently kept a precise record for 2,000 miles and averaged 19.4, with the range running from 18.0 to the highest of 20.2. I don't drive fast, don't do jack-rabbit starts, have the car in a heated garage, drive mostly in suburban areas (NW of Chicago), on a few expressways, and a little bit of country mileage. I don't stick to the same name brand of gasoline, nor the same gas station on each fillup, and my dealer said my car computer (or whatever) is set correctly.

My trade-in on the Forester was a 97 Lincoln Towncar that with the same kind of usage averaged 15.5MPG. Of course I have a few friends that tell me they average 25MPG on their Towncars which I know is a crock.

It's been my observation that when people buy a car they tend to exaggerate how little they paid for it, and when they sell it how much they got for it, and of course they always average better gas mileage then the manufacturers sticker says they will get.

logtrail

Has anyone had any problems with slow leaks in the Yokahama tires during the winter months. Had this problem with two tires last year and again this year. Within two weeks two fronts lost 8 pounds. Last week I lost 4 lbs each. Tire shop broke seal, put new sealant and valve stems on. He said that sometimes alloy wheels will cause this in the winter. Have never had this problem in 45 years of driving. Problem with Yokis? with rims? or coincidence?

rochcom

Fuel mileage:

The '03 XS is probably not broken in yet. Subaru engines are built to tight tolerances and I found that mine did not reach maximum fuel economy until 18,000 miles. I have averaged between 23 and 28.5 mpg with my '98 manual for nearly 5 years. My first few tanks were around 23 and gradually increased. The top mileage was on the highway in moderately warm weather without the AC running.

  However, this winter, with temepratures lower than the last few years, with some challenging driving conditions and many accessories operating (seat and mirror heaters, wipers, full lights) much of the time, I hit a new low of 20 for one tank.

We do not have oxygenated fuel in our area, but the one tankful I purchased on a trip before I hit bottom, had a funny solvent-like odor, so I think that contributed to it.

I think you will find that your mileage will improve dramaticaly with warmer weather and extended break-in.

Losing Air:

Tires normally lose up to 1 pound per month with steady temperatures and also lose about 1 pound for each roughly 10 degree F decrease in ambient temperature. In our area, over the past few years, we have had wide swings in the position of the jetstream that have caused temperature changes of as much as 40 degrees F. in a day (although more often 10-15). It is also possible during bad weather to hit potholes and unseat the bead. This may correct itself over time if the wheel and bead are not actually damaged.

If both tires are on the same side, I would suspect that an object was hit, maybe when someone else was driving? But I would agree that this is a large amount in such a short time if there is no tire or wheel damage.

zigzag7239

The Edmunds long-term test shows a high mileage of 28.8 MPG, a low mileage of 16.3, and an average mileage of 21.4 after 6k+ miles. They've taken a couple of road trips, and they appear to spend a lot of time on LA freeways, which would presumably boost the average. In any case, there's definitely a mileage penalty for AWD.

Personally, I'd prefer to see Subaru offer a Forester in 2WD, but it isn't gonna happen - AWD has become Subaru's calling card.

tidester

Tires normally lose up to 1 pound per month with steady temperatures and also lose about 1 pound for each roughly 10 degree F decrease in ambient temperature.

The pressure loss with decreasing temperature is consistent with the Ideal Gas Law but I'm not sure 1 lb-f/in² loss in pressure per month with fixed temperature is normal.

tidester, host

jimbob17

I'm not one for a luxury car. I need heat, air, tunes and reliability.
I got the 03 X and its great in all the snows we've had here in NE Pa. Good clearance and plenty of head room. I do wish I had a cassette as some one else mentioned but that is the only thing I lack with the 03 X.

kens

I believe Rochom is right on about your engine not quite being broken in yet. I also drive a 98 Forester (5-speed) and I get a consistent 24-26mpg. I'm out in California where the weather is milder, but we also get oxygenated gas in the winter months.

When I first purchased my Forester, my average gas milage was about 1 mpg lower.

What are your tire pressures set to? The "recommended" pressures by Subaru are on the soft side and don't do much for handling and fuel economy. I have my tires set at 34/32psi front/rear.

Ken

c_hunter

I don't normally monitor gas mileage on my wife's 03 Forester, but we recently took a long trip up to New England for Christmas (~550 miles each way). With 3 adults and the car packed pretty heavily, we got 26-27 MPG. The car just turned 10000 miles.

Craig

subearu

Since you're in the Chicago area, you're getting the reformulated stuff for fuel. And on top of that, in the winter (December - March?) you get 'oxygenated' fuel. Typically, the winter blend can cause 1-2 mpg less.

I'm in SE Wisconsin, so the fuel is the same here. I keep records of all my mileage; my Outback gets 18 or so in the winter on strictly city driving and 22/23 highway. In the summer, that changes to 21 city/25 highway. I have gotten 28 on a highway trip once, but that was a non-stop 'flight'.

-Brian

taft4

Thanks for the mileage information and hopefully the XS will get better mileage as it matures (gets more miles on it.) Since we only drive about 7-8,000 miles a year the gas cost is not a factor, but we want to be as environmentally friendly as possible by getting good gas mileage.

 As for tire pressures, the dealer sets those which I assume are 29, as per the manufacturer's specifications. The car rides hard enough as it is so I would not want to increase tire pressures.

Because my wife is partially disabled we needed a vehicle that was not too high to get in to nor too low to get out of and after testing many we found that the Forester met that criteria really well. We also needed leather to enable her to slide on the seat easily and to get that in the Forester we ended up with that dam moonroof which we will never use.

Nothing rides as well or as quietly as our old (97) Towncar but it was too big when we moved into a retirement village and had smaller underground parking. Sounds like I am unhappy with the XS but I am not because it is so easy to park in tight situations (44" shorter and 8" narrower then the Towncar), to manuever in traffic, and the visability in all directions is great. Its fun to drive, although I shudder when people say it rides so nicely.

zigzag7239

Nice ride vs. fun-to-drive is an almost direct trade-off. And almost anything is going to ride harder if you've been driving a Town Car, especially with a much shorter wheelbase like the Forester's.

You could lower the tire pressure for a softer ride, but that'll lower your mileage as well.

kens

Some other things that you could try to get better milage:

- Switch to synthetic oil. I found that my milage went up approx 1 mpg after switching to Mobil 1.
- Experiment with different brands and grades of gas. Use each for several tanks and see what happens.
- Try different tires -- rolling resistance is another factor that influences gas milage. For example, Michelin MXV4 Plus (IIRC) are designed to have lower rolling resistance leading to better fuel milage.

Ken

subearu

You may want to check those tires. The dealer is supposed to check and set the tires to the proper pressures, but it is very common for them to miss this on the PDI. Your overly harsh ride could be caused by the over inflated tires that come that way to help prevent flat spots from sitting on the lot for extended periods of time.

Easy enough to check and correct. They may be as high as 40psi.

-Brian

lfdal

The dealer sets my tire pressure as part of his normal oil change procedure. Along with the free extra oil I get, that I go home and drain out, BTW, I have to wonder if too much oil helps those seals blow out sooner, there's a reason some engineer somewhere said 4.2 qts. A lot of people will and have spoken here about what the engine tolerates, but a lot of people on this board have seal and gasket problems too. But anyway I get the tires back with anywhere from 35 to 40lbs in them. Verified this on two different gauges - one dial, one digital. It's even better because no two are the same. So...... next morning I always go reset the pressures. Then I drain the extra oil. BTW, I'm sure its extra - Fills more than a gallon jug w/o the filter. Seems to be 5 qts, always.

rangerron7

I live in your area and what Bear and the others have written has been my experience as well. My wife's 02 Forester with about 11K on the clock is averaging about 18.0 to 18.5mpg in mostly city driving since December. However, my 00 OB (16k) winter mileage has improved to about 20mpg in a mix of city/hwy driving. I think break-in has alot to do with it.
Ron

mjsnd80

I have a 75 mile round trip commute every day, 50/50 Interstate and back roads. My mileage over 3,000 miles is actually 27.6 mpg. As the car breaks in, I use Mobil 1, get a K&N filter and get off the winterized gas up here in Maine --

I purchased the car the last weekend in Dec; which was a double-whammy of end-of-month and end-of year. I was negotiating with two dealers, and the price for the brand new 2003 Forester XS 5-speed was $21,098.

No "exageration" here!

Like taft4, my previous car (a Cadillac Deville) was quite different than the Forester -- and nicer riding, of course -- -- but nowhere near the FUN!!!

c_hunter

Taft: sounds like you got spoiled by the ride of that Town Car! Not much else on the road outside of a big Caddy will ride that smooth. The Forester will certainly feel stiff in comparison. Definitely check the tire pressure -- the dealers don't usually pay a lot of attention to it. I would use the guidelines on the door jamb, and then adjust upwards to your taste (as needed).

Larry: I believe excess oil can cause seals and gaskets to leak. Depends on how much excess there is. I had a 93 Honda Civic that was flawless. Needed to go to the dealer for a state inspection, so I had them change the oil for once. A few days afterwards, oil began to leak from the valve cover gasket. Upon checking the level, it was about a quart too high. On top of that, the idiots must have overtorqued my wheels, since my brakes began pulsing shortly thereafter.

Craig

wort01

Just found out about this discussion group and I'm hoping to get some feedback about brakes and rotors on my 99 Forester S.

Here's the situation:

Brake pads replaced and rotors turned at 50,000 miles.

Rotors machined and replaced 57,000 miles.

Currently at 64,000 miles and car is back in the shop for new pads and rotors.

Now almost all of my miles are around town but this seems a bit too frequent...
The first two repairs were under warranty and this one is as well. The shop, a Subaru dealer, is willing to split the cost of repairs with me; they pay for labor and I pay for parts. Since this is obviously a recurring problem I'm wondering two things: has anyone else had this consistent problem and do you think the dealer is giving me a fair shake, particularly since I have extended warranty protection?

Thanks in advance,
Ken

c_hunter

Were the brakes fine before that servicing at 50,000 miles? If not, give us a brief history.

Craig

wort01

My first visit to the shop was to replace the wheel bearings. During that service the mechanics noted that the brakes and rotors needed servicing. Subsequent visits were precipitated by increasing amounts of vibration when braking. I never experienced any of the tell-tale brake pad squealing or scraping before or after any of the visits. I just think it is weird that the rotors would need servicing more frequently (or as frequently) as the pads.

Ken

lfdal

Have they checked to make sure the rear brakes are carrying their share of the load and not letting the front brakes(I'm assuming you were talking front brakes?) do all of the work? If the rear brakes on your Forester are drum type, and they haven't been adjusted in a while, they might not be doing a lot of good back there.
When the rotors warp you'll feel no vibration unless you apply the brakes. Its been my sad experience that today's rotors aren't as sturdy as the older rotors used to be - it seems thay've made them as thin as possible from the get go.
That being said and to address Craig's post above, when the mechanics put on the wheels they normally overtorque them - a lot. I'm not sure most of those guys would know a torque stick if they tripped over it. Because if they do, there's no excuse not to use one. This is not only stressful to the rotors but can also lead to wheel warpage.
Having rambled through all that, if the job was done right and the parts weren't defective when they installed them, there's no reason you should need rotors and pads in 7000 miles.
I think they should "good will" the entire job, without it costing you a dime.
Larry

ateixeira

Get a good torque wrench, and re-tighten after any dealer service that removed the wheels. I apply 75 lb-ft to each lug nut, and after the vehicle is on the ground.

Rotors should last longer than pads, of course. One thing it to try to let off the brakes after a hard stop, because the pad and rotor cool at different rates, and holding them together during the cooling process can make rotors warp.

Finally, the rotors' surface is hardened, so once your resurface them they're not going to last nearly as long as the original rotor.

Nice long-term test. Caroline should just remove those rear head rests - I have since I have kids back there. Visibility is excellent. I put the head rests up only on rare occasions that I have adults in the back seat. Also, why complain about the door locks when you can just use the power lock button or the key fob? Overall a positive review, though.

Even Edmunds is getting 21.4mpg on a green car, and press fleet cars get flogged big time. 19.4mpg is a bit low, you sure you're not a lead foot, taft4? ;-)

I'm tracking my mileage, and my low is 20.7mpg, high is 30.4mpg, with the average right at 25mpg. That's even though I've towed and had the Forester off road (on beaches) several times.

One strategy I use is to shift at about 3000 rpm if you're after top notch fuel economy. 4000 rpm max for hills and more pep. Just make sure to run it to redline once per tankful to prevent carbon build up in the cylinders.

And by the way, my record of 30.4mpg was actually with my wife behind the wheel. She takes it easy, we were driving up to see the in-laws on a road trip and her speeds were a good 10mph slower than mine. My mileage is usually 2-3 mpg lower than hers!

The shape is square, so you'll do better at 55mph than you will at 70 by far.

-juice

kens

It sounds like something between the 57K and 64K replacement is suspect. Did the dealer replace all the pads at 57K including the rotors?

It could very well be that the wheel lugs were overtorqued causing the rotors to warp.

Also, machining rotors is a trade-off. You do get smoother action for a while, but you also make the rotors more susceptible to future warping.

My original pads and rotors lasted me until well past 70K miles (I do a lot of highway). Instead of resurfacing the rotors, I had a set of larger WRX rotors and pads installed in the fronts.

Ken

c_hunter

If the mechanics are overtorqueing the wheels after each brake job, it is possible that the rotors keep getting damaged for that reason alone. Hard to believe, but you never know.

Another thought -- certain types of pads will affect rotor longevity (heard a discussion about this on Car Talk recently). I would make sure the pads are the proper Subaru replacement parts.

Finally, could it be possible that the shop screwed up the rear brakes while servicing the bearings? If so, and the front brakes are carrying more load than they should, this would lead to overheating and warpage under normal driving. You'd wear through brake pads quickly too.

If the problems started happening after the shop serviced the bearings, I would suspect something connected to that event.

Craig

ateixeira

50k on the original pads on all four. :-)

-juice

duckguni

I have owned my new Forester for 5 months, and my mileage is about 2,800 miles now. So I think it's time to change my engine oil. My dealershop sent me coupons for engine oil and automatic transmission flush. Ant it said "You wouldn't change only half of your engine oil, so why do that to your transmission? Please call the service department to schedule an appointment."
I wonder if I should change my automatic transmission oil.

Could you give me an answer?

And what esle should I check for my first visit to the dealershop?

Thanks!

xccoachlou

Having had no satisfactory response from MSN, I have passed on my concerns regarding Mr. Heraud's reviews to SOA. I hope they are more effective in dealing with MSN than I was.

psfod3

I always keep all four tires at 32psi this usally gives me some play when the temp. dives down very low. I have a 03 Forester x I dont think the ride could be that much different between 29f/28r and 32f/32r. I general I find the car to have a rough hard ride on a bumpy road. 32psi feels right on the highway. I find that most tire shops will tell you to keep the tires at 32-33 for tire life and handling regardless of what the door says.

c_hunter

You won't need to worry about changing the transmission fluid for a long, long time. Certainly not at 2800 miles! Check the owner's manual for the correct service interval for this.

The only thing you really need the dealer to do at 3K is change the oil and filter.

Craig

rochcom

I asked the dealer to check the pads on my '98 S at the last oil change, at 70,000 miles. They stated that the pads were 80% worn in the rear and 70% at the front. This is consistent with reports from other Subaru owners that the pads last a very long time, but it seems unusual that the rears are worn more. OTOH, driving style and traffic conditions can make a big difference. I tend to keep far back and not have to brake hard.

My personal experience with rotors is that if they are turned, even if still within thickness spec, there is a good chance that they will warp within a few months. The thinner material does not dissipate heat well. So, I have insisted that the pads be replaced and the rotors cleaned, but otherwise left alone. I usually get arguments like "but they are rusted and will damage the pads." OK, but if they are turned, they will just rust again. Rotors rust when they are not used often, such as when a car is stored.

The rotors on my Forester have worn quite a bit, and the pads and rotors are quite expensive. The dealer quotes $180 per axle to replace pads and turn rotors, clean calipers, etc.

Independent shops will do this for less, often about half. But my expreience with some of the better known chains has not been good. Plus, the warranty that attracts most people is really not much. They will install a new set of pads if yours wear out during a short warranty period, typically 2 yrs, 24,000 miles. BUT, in order to get them to do that, you have to agree to whatever repairs they recommend. After all, your pads would not have worn prematurely unless there was something wrong with your vehicle! This gives them carte blanche to charge whatever they want to install your "free" warranty pads. If you refuse their recommendations, they give you the pads and tell you to install them yourself or take then elsewhere.

Because of the long wear, it seems to me that it is better to pay the dealer more for the factory spec pads. However, I wonder if the dealer above isntalled something OTHER than genuine Subaru. I have seen this happen before.

taft4

Since I purchased my XS I never personally checked my tire pressures, assuming that my dealer had done that according to the specs of the manufacturer which are 29 front and 28 rear. A number of you in this forum suggested that I do that and much to my surprise I found all four tires were at 34. I lowered the pressure to match the specs, even though I assume that will reduce my MPG further, but since we only drive about 600 miles per month, that is not too large an impact on the wallet. I noticed today that regular around here has reached $1.69 per gal.

paisan

Wow that must be great.

I bought my '92 SVX in Sept with 71K miles, it now just turned 83K miles!

-mike

ateixeira

I would wait until 30k to flush the ATF. For now just do the oil.

taft4: well, at least that explains the rough ride you were experiencing.

-juice

p0926

taft4- Pardon my incredulity but I can't fathom how you're getting such poor gas mileage :-)

As far as exaggerating goes, I've kept a written record of every fill-up for the past 45,000 miles. I know that driving patterns and habits have a lot to do with your mileage. I'm on my 10th car and every one of them exceeded the EPA estimates by about 3 mpg with the Forester being no exception.

-Frank P.

lakepop

Got an email in response for info. The 2004 Forester 2.5XT will be at the Chicago Car Show.

   YEP............2.5 XT !!!!!

rsunico

My 01 Forester has close to 35,000 miles. Here is a list of all the (warranty) repairs: New clutch (warped clutch plate, new brakes all around, resurface rotors, tighten window regulator (rattles), new blower motor (slight sqeak). Hmmm.. less than the Saab but... what do people think about the warranty? Does this seem normal? What should I look forward to next? Being lured by the turbo Forester or WRX... so I'm not 100% sure I will keep the car.

ateixeira

If you're not sure you're gonna keep it, I'd pass. Any break down will just give you the excuse you'll probably want to trade it in for a turbo. Then consider a Subaru Gold warranty on that, 'cause it'll be a keeper.

2.5XT eh? Is that from the mouth of SoA?

The debut is 2pm today, can't wait!

-juice

lakepop

  2.5XT..yeh. If you believe what SOA public relations says/email!
   
     Other details will follow at 2pm

ateixeira

OK, is that the same as 2pm eastern time? Is Chicago an hour behind us?

-juice

lakepop

juice....the presentation is being made in Chicago....so I'd have to say 2 pm CST or 3pm EST.

  I know ...#$@%# we have to wait another hour

ateixeira

Freakin' @(#$*^#%$!

Let's try to hack the Subaru site like they did before the WRX launch. ;-)

-juice

corkfish

Wow. Subaru is full of surprises. If this thing is a 250 HP 2.5 Turbo I'm going to stop by the Subaru dealership after work today and put down my deposit.

ateixeira

Ka-ching, pardon the cross-post but this news is HUGE:

* 210hp and 235 lb-ft at a low 3600 rpm!
* AVCS and it's based on the STi engine!
* aluminum finish roof rails
* black side walls just for you Bob!
* body color door handles are new
* standard sport guage package
* Premium only with auto and black leather
* what's this Direct Control 4 speed auto? no Shiftronic I guess
* it keeps the Hill Holder

Sweetness!

-juice

lakepop

Yep....its all there at www.autoweek.com to include a picture.

         Good stuff!

bkaiser1

First the STi, now this! I've been trying to sell myself on the idea of keeping my Outback for several more years (until at least 150K miles) but this is just too tempting. I've managed to resist the WRX wagon for the past 2 years only by telling myself that it's too small for me...now the Forester comes in with this kind of power in a size much closer to my Outback!

Getting weak...must hold out...must not test drive...UGH!

Brian

sfdriver

Here's the direct link to the autoweek subaru pdf file.

ateixeira

Don't get me wrong, the STi was huge news too, but it comes in such tiny volumes that few of us will ever own one.

But the Forester 2.5XT will be a high volume model. The WRX was just a tad small, but the XT doesn't seem to have any such "deal killer" flaws.

Dang, I want one too now. I can't even let Sandy see the expression on my face!

-juice

ateixeira

Upon closer inspection, I didn't realize they already had 2 photos available. I'd only seen the first.

The rims are nice, I like them better than the current alloys on the XS. 6 twin spokes. The black wall tires are just the ticket, they look sportier. I have black walls on my aftermarket rims.

Otherwise looks are similar. Monotone Silver is shown so you don't notice the aluminum finish roof rails.

The hood scoop is mellow, not as showy as the 2004 WRX's.

They picked my favorite color just to tempt me further!

-juice