Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous

oldfarmer50

28firefighter said:

Punch! I5 M60 Loaner with 6200 miles. $90k MSRP, $598 Due at signing and $598/month including crazy WA taxes. 36 months/7500 miles a year. Also included free EA charging for 2 years!

Phytonic Blue over Smoke Leather. Bow was my sales guy being funny.

Driving back from Oregon as we speak. Range very impressive so far.

Beautiful car. I like that color.

oldfarmer50

Michaell said:

I began the long process of deciding what, if any, car I may get to replace the Outback today. Decided to start with the Toyota dealer affiliated with both the Mazda dealer where I got the CX-7 and the Subaru dealer where I got the Outback.

I did not know they move more cars per month than any Toyota dealer in the state. The place was crazy busy for an early Friday afternoon.

I had called earlier in the day to ensure that they had a FWD Camry XSE available to drive. They did, so I set up an appointment. Showed up a bit early and had to wait, then was handed off by the original salesperson to someone else. No matter - I was just there to take a test drive. Went through the basic qualifying questions (what's important to you? how long until you're ready to make a decision?), surrendered my license for a photocopy, and we were off.

Dark blue over black - I didn't care about color at this point, just wanted to get a sense of how it drove. Loaded with the premium package, which added ventilated seats and some other niceties; MSRP just under $40K.

Typical 4 right turn test drive in urban traffic. The car rode comfortably, and I didn't notice any issues with the e-CVT (yep, that's what Toyota calls their transmission). The heads up display was nice, and the seat was comfortable. The salesman kept up with a steady stream of patter, which grated on me more than it probably should have.

Back at the showroom, the salesman ran off to "get some numbers", which I also (correctly) assumed I would be meeting a manager. I had them skip the trade appraisal, so the numbers I were given were using the promotional 4.99% APR for various terms and down payments. Fine, OK, no problem.

Looking closer at the prices, I saw over $3000 of "accessories" added to the price - this included paint and fabric protection, a clear bra up front, and one or two other things. With tax and fees, the final price was around $45K. This, on a car that was shown on the website with an almost $2K discount from sticker.

It has been a long, long time since I've done this, and I tried to remain non-plussed by what I was seeing. But, I channeled my dad when he bought the Sonata in 2003 - "dang, cars got expensive" (he paid, I think, $17K before TTL on the Hyundai).

I am in absolutely no rush on this - just getting a feel for what's out there, how they're equipped, how they drive, and what they cost.

Want to test drive both the Accord hybrid (Touring trim) and the Sonata hybrid (Limited trim) in the next few weeks.

Still may consider a hybrid SUV, in which case there are a lot more contenders.

Just wading back into the CCBA pool!

What’s the chance of negotiating those “extras” off the final price? I heard Toyota is limiting production to create a shortage in order to maintain prices. Or do you think they just throw them on there to make you think you got a deal at MSRP?

On the other hand if all the Camrys I see in our fleet is any indication, they are not selling that well.

stickguy

I got curious so checked out tire sizes. Looks like only the LE has old school meats (16" 65 series). The XLE has 235/45-18's. XSE only goes down to 235/40 19, which frankly seems absurd to me for a family sedan.

Ordering is great. That is how I did my Mavericks. went down the build your own website, gave that summary to the internet manager at the dealership that I was working with, and he put it in exactly like that and sent me the confirmation. And they added nothing when it showed up. I just paid what I speced out (per the window sticker) plus TTL (and the usual doc fee). Most Mavs were being ordered at that point, and usually spent very little time on the lot. they rolled off the truck into prep, and off to the buyer!

I don't think Toyota allows that, since they go through the distributors. Can only claim a unit that already has had port installed options on it. But you should IMO be able to get it just like that, without a lot of dealer added nonsense on top of it.

tjc78

@28firefighter
Congrats!! Insane lease right there

benjaminh

Our 2024 Outback has the most luxurious ride of any car we've ever owned, including our 1988 Oldsmobile 98. But the handling is much better than the 98, which had a squishy marshmallow feel when going around corners, along with lots of tire squeal. Part of the Outback's comfortable ride, which is even quieter and more comfortable than my TLX (although obviously it doesn't corner as well as the Acura), comes from the suspension, which because the car has has 8.7 inches of clearance allows for more give in the shock absorbers and springs without letting it bottom out. But part is from the 225/65R17 tires, which have old-fashioned cushy sidewalls.

stickguy

my Maverick has a nice ride but also handles just fine. 225/60-18 tires

au1994

Congrats on the punch @28firefighter

Great deal!

breld

Congrats @28firefighter!

If only I could find a similar deal in my area, I’d likely pull the trigger as well.

The CPO example I’ve been stalking is still available, but curiously, after continuous price drops over the last several weeks, they increased the price by $3,300 this past week.

What’s up with that tactic? I suppose it’s a reset for those not following the listing, so that when they reduce it again it attracts attention?

28firefighter

@breld said:
Congrats @28firefighter!

If only I could find a similar deal in my area, I’d likely pull the trigger as well.

The CPO example I’ve been stalking is still available, but curiously, after continuous price drops over the last several weeks, they increased the price by $3,300 this past week.

What’s up with that tactic? I suppose it’s a reset for those not following the listing, so that when they reduce it again it attracts attention?

Apparently that happened with this, too. My guess is it’s an automated system watching MMR, traffic to the car on the web, etc.

oldfarmer50

stickguy said:

I got curious so checked out tire sizes. Looks like only the LE has old school meats (16" 65 series). The XLE has 235/45-18's. XSE only goes down to 235/40 19, which frankly seems absurd to me for a family sedan.

Ordering is great. That is how I did my Mavericks. went down the build your own website, gave that summary to the internet manager at the dealership that I was working with, and he put it in exactly like that and sent me the confirmation. And they added nothing when it showed up. I just paid what I speced out (per the window sticker) plus TTL (and the usual doc fee). Most Mavs were being ordered at that point, and usually spent very little time on the lot. they rolled off the truck into prep, and off to the buyer!

I don't think Toyota allows that, since they go through the distributors. Can only claim a unit that already has had port installed options on it. But you should IMO be able to get it just like that, without a lot of dealer added nonsense on top of it.

Do all Toyotas get the port installed add-on? I thought that game was only played in the south east because of some nebulous agreement Toyota had with a distributor down there.

I was driving a 2023 Camry SE with 60k miles the other day and it drove like a new car. I’d like to get one but I hate playing games.

stickguy

Love this guy's videos. And probably the most positive, non-biased review of a CVT I have ever seen. Maybe I should try one out in a WRX.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/the-subaru-wrx-proves-everyone-wrong-about-cvt-transmissions/vi-AA1G0vEZ?ocid=socialshare

stickguy

oldfarmer50 said:

stickguy said:

I got curious so checked out tire sizes. Looks like only the LE has old school meats (16" 65 series). The XLE has 235/45-18's. XSE only goes down to 235/40 19, which frankly seems absurd to me for a family sedan.

Ordering is great. That is how I did my Mavericks. went down the build your own website, gave that summary to the internet manager at the dealership that I was working with, and he put it in exactly like that and sent me the confirmation. And they added nothing when it showed up. I just paid what I speced out (per the window sticker) plus TTL (and the usual doc fee). Most Mavs were being ordered at that point, and usually spent very little time on the lot. they rolled off the truck into prep, and off to the buyer!

I don't think Toyota allows that, since they go through the distributors. Can only claim a unit that already has had port installed options on it. But you should IMO be able to get it just like that, without a lot of dealer added nonsense on top of it.

Do all Toyotas get the port installed add-on? I thought that game was only played in the south east because of some nebulous agreement Toyota had with a distributor down there.

I was driving a 2023 Camry SE with 60k miles the other day and it drove like a new car. I’d like to get one but I hate playing games.

based on this window sticker of a Camry up by us in NY, yes they do. Pretty sure the small stuff (door edge guards, etc.) are all port installed, not factory. Those end up on the actual window sticker too, so hard to distinguish.

fintail

28firefighter said:

Punch! I5 M60 Loaner with 6200 miles. $90k MSRP, $598 Due at signing and $598/month including crazy WA taxes. 36 months/7500 miles a year. Also included free EA charging for 2 years!

Phytonic Blue over Smoke Leather. Bow was my sales guy being funny.

Driving back from Oregon as we speak. Range very impressive so far.

Oregon - does a suburban Portland dealer have crazy deals like the Wilsonville MB dealer did at least in the before times? Heck of a deal there.

Michaell

stickguy said:

Love this guy's videos. And probably the most positive, non-biased review of a CVT I have ever seen. Maybe I should try one out in a WRX.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/the-subaru-wrx-proves-everyone-wrong-about-cvt-transmissions/vi-AA1G0vEZ?ocid=socialshare

Only if you reincarnate yourself as "cvtguy" for your profile.

I can't think of a worse car to have a non-manual transmission in it.

stickguy

if it works, it works. This is more thinking about something that would still be a "fun" car but my wife would not mind driving. Pretty sure she could fake driving a stick still (but would not be excited by the idea) so if it was my car and in an emergency, sure. But not something she would want for her car and driving in traffic.

to replace the Acura, it would be an AT. a 3rd car added to the fleet, I would try to get a stick.

laurasdada

Congrats @28firefighter! BMW owns the color blue.

Lucid dealer has contacted me several times since I went lookie-lou'ing a couple weeks ago. Lease prices went way up this month, they're advertising the end of the $7500 lease credit 9/30. Not sure I want to part ways with the wonderful A7 before I pay it off at 0%, assume a similar lease payment for 36 months. The Air GT is leasing for not too much more that Tourings (cars they have on site up here), offering EPA rated 500+ miles range. And, of course, I'd have to upgrade the garage to 240...

Such problems.

benjaminh

Well, stickguy, since iirc your spouse said it was okay to park her RDX outside, maybe consider doing that?

Then your Porsche or other sports car with the 6-speed manual can go in the garage alongside your Maverick.

stickguy

the downside to that plan is I have to go outside in the winter to clean it off and warm it up when she needs to go someplace.

benjaminh

Yes, but since she likes her RDX, and more than that is used to it, from my pov seems dicey to let it go. I know you really like your Maverick, but for most cargo needs perhaps the RDX would be enough. If so, another possibility might be to trade in the value of the Maverick toward a sports car, and then perhaps you could rent a truck or big SUV if you really need more cargo space than the RDX. In retrospect it seems regrettable that you didn't get a three-vehicle garage built as part of your new house.

ab348

stickguy said:

Love this guy's videos. And probably the most positive, non-biased review of a CVT I have ever seen. Maybe I should try one out in a WRX.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/the-subaru-wrx-proves-everyone-wrong-about-cvt-transmissions/vi-AA1G0vEZ?ocid=socialshare

I gave up when he did the deep dive into DCTs. Too much info.

stickguy

He’s an engineer. That’s what they do.

stickguy

@benjaminh said:
Yes, but since she likes her RDX, and more than that is used to it, from my pov seems dicey to let it go. I know you really like your Maverick, but for most cargo needs perhaps the RDX would be enough. If so, another possibility might be to trade in the value of the Maverick toward a sports car, and then perhaps you could rent a truck or big SUV if you really need more cargo space than the RDX. In retrospect it seems regrettable that you didn't get a three-vehicle garage built as part of your new house.

I’ll agree with that last part!

Not sure why but after raising the offer on the maverick last month by $200, carvana dropped it by $6,200 in this months offer email. That’s harsh.

xwesx

Generosity cannot last forever!

oldfarmer50

stickguy said:

Love this guy's videos. And probably the most positive, non-biased review of a CVT I have ever seen. Maybe I should try one out in a WRX.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/the-subaru-wrx-proves-everyone-wrong-about-cvt-transmissions/vi-AA1G0vEZ?ocid=socialshare

He didn’t touch on the one big bugaboo with CVTs, reliability. Not a consideration if you lease or swap cars every few years but very pricey if you are a long term owner.

benjaminh

stickguy said:

Not sure why but after raising the offer on the maverick last month by $200, carvana dropped it by $6,200 in this months offer email. That’s harsh.

What's the current offer on the Maverick?

Based on sales figures and recent car sales videos I've watched, it seems like a significant number of customers are putting off purchases of new and used cars. Seems like the tariff talk has scared them, plus the economy is a bit wobbly in areas. I've watched some videos of tech workers in their mid to late-20s who used to make lots of money, but now can't get a get a job in that field, and are usually not yet ready to work at Lowe's, Starbucks, or something similar. Plus during the car shortage a lot of people got into high priced vehicles with long loan terms, and so now have negative equity.

Car prices in general have gotten somewhat high for many relative to their incomes.

The Maverick was an innovative vehicle at a great price when it came out, but as you know supply chain issues meant for the first three years Ford couldn't keep up with demand. But it seems like for the past year supply has finally caught up with demand, and so people are no longer willing to pay new prices for a used Maverick.

From my pov the bright side is that you have a near-perfect vehicle for your needs—a medium-sized luxury truck that gets around 40mpg. Unless you can get a great trade-in value it seems like it would be better to keep it.

If you can't stand to have a vehicle out in the elements, would there be a way to add a carport to your house, to at least shield an outside vehicle from the worst of the snow and sun? If so, maybe the Maverick or RDX could be under a carport, and a sports car could be in the garage. Just a thought.

benjaminh

More than a dozen years ago my Mom asked me for car buying advice, and I suggested she get a new Honda Accord. Seemed like the entry-level LX would be enough, and so they got the all-new 2013 Accord in red. It was a great car until this year—very comfortable, good power, good mpg, great visibility, big trunk space, etc. Until this year it's only needed regular maintenance. Often I took the car in to get it serviced myself for my Mom at the Honda dealer when I visited. But this year....new starter, new alternator, new battery, as well as all sorts of other stuff. Total of all the bills from the Honda dealer add up to more than $4k in the last six months. My Mom has said a few times, "But it only has 65,000 miles," but I told her years are just as difficult for cars as miles. Plus city miles are even more wearing for a car than highway miles. Anyway, I hope now it's finally fixed for a while, but unfortunately it left her stranded twice, which she handled well, but that's not a good thing for someone in their mid-80s. Sigh. If I'd known all of these things were going to happen I might have suggested she get a new car. Maybe I still should? But after all the money that's been sunk into it probably best to let it go. She still really likes the car, when it works, and is quite familiar with all of the controls. She almost never drives on the highway now, just around town, and so only maybe 4-5k miles a year.

stickguy

At this point if you got all the likely wear items sorted out keep it. Unfortunately nobody actually knows before stuff fails when to cut and run. Plus it would have cost way more than $4k on top of trade in value to replace it. And as noted a steep learning curve.

stickguy

I was in until $199,900 then Decided to tap out.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2001-acura-integra-type-r-69/

suydam

This is why we got the Sportage and not a RAV4. Toyota Prices are just way out of line for what you get.

oldfarmer50

“ Plus during the car shortage a lot of people got into high priced vehicles with long loan terms, and so now have negative equity.”

I think during Covid a lot of people panicked and bought RVs and motor homes as worse case scenario bug out vehicles in case society collapsed. After a few years these got dumped back on the market with tremendous negative equity.

Case in point: one of our drivers retired from the company and is moving to TN to be near family. He bought a 3 year old motor home with 37k miles for only $15,000. It looked something like this:



I can’t imagine a beast like that cost less than $100k new so what would be the negative equity involved in selling it?

stickguy

I could run a lot of brush to the dump in that baby.

jmonroe1

stickguy said:

I was in until $199,900 then Decided to tap out.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2001-acura-integra-type-r-69/

————————————————-
I didn’t realize I’d scare you off that easily when I upped my bid by $1. Then again you have told us numerous times that you’re cheap.

jmonroe

stickguy

and proud of it.

jmonroe1

stickguy said:

and proud of it.

————————————————
What if I said you’re also a chicken?

jmonroe

au1994

$204, 204 on the Integra. Pretty close to peak Acura/Honda but…Seriously…?

nyccarguy

Just got home from our DC trip. I think it cost me more in tolls than gas. Filled up the tank for $30 about an hour into MD. 44.49 mpg.

@28firefighter - mazel tov on the electric BMW! Sharp color!

kyfdx

@oldfarmer50 Is his name, Walter White?

tjc78

@au1994 said:
$204, 204 on the Integra. Pretty close to peak Acura/Honda but…Seriously…?

Absolute insanity

breld

laurasdada said:

Congrats @28firefighter! BMW owns the color blue.

Lucid dealer has contacted me several times since I went lookie-lou'ing a couple weeks ago. Lease prices went way up this month, they're advertising the end of the $7500 lease credit 9/30. Not sure I want to part ways with the wonderful A7 before I pay it off at 0%, assume a similar lease payment for 36 months. The Air GT is leasing for not too much more that Tourings (cars they have on site up here), offering EPA rated 500+ miles range. And, of course, I'd have to upgrade the garage to 240...

Such problems.

Yup - I’m in the same boat…I was pretty enthusiastic about the prospect of a Lucid with last month’s lease deals, but July brought much less attractive offers. And if their online inventory of available cars is accurate, it would seem there has been a rush from buyers to snatch up remaining 2025 models, so not so sure those lease deals are returning any time soon.

I did test out a new S6 e-tron this past Friday. I’m not sure if it’s as nice as your current A7, but that could be a nice option. I have that on my short list, along with the SQ6 e-tron and Polestar 3.

I’m also attracted to the deeply depreciated pricing on lightly used BMW iX’s.

breld

Plus, I’ll sheepishly admit I’m currently on a 48-hour demo drive of a Tesla Model 3.

They still have some of the best driving experiences among EVs, the refinement with the latest refresh is shockingly improved, and with all incentives, it’s about a $37k option.

nyccarguy

A side note from the trip home. Things were pretty uneventful until we got to (you guessed it) The New Jersey Turnpike. For those who don’t know, there’s a portion of the NJ Turnpike where it splits off into a CARS section & a CARS, TRUCKS, & BUSES section. I always drive with the trucks. I start to hear a popping noise and look around to see where it was coming from. A Mercedes E Class in the CARS section from 2011ish when they had the square headlights. He pulls up next to a Hemi powered challenger. They slow down to free up the traffic ahead of them. The Mercedes Exhaust keeps popping. These 2 idiots start roll racing. The Challenger won. It was short lived and nobody got hurt. What is wrong with people?

stickguy

I always took the truck side too. Partly because I thought it was easier to hide maybe (I had a reason!) but mostly because I hated being on the inside set of lanes. At least in the outer lanes if you had to pull off, there was grass next to you.

Michaell

While it’s been several decades since I’ve driven the NJT, I did not know that a car could drive on the truck side. I always took the CARS side of the roadway.

Knowledge I’ll likely not be able to use, now.

oldfarmer50

kyfdx said:

@oldfarmer50 Is his name, Walter White?

His name is Charlie and he’s 87. 😱

qbrozen

@Michaell said:
While it’s been several decades since I’ve driven the NJT, I did not know that a car could drive on the truck side. I always took the CARS side of the roadway.

Knowledge I’ll likely not be able to use, now.

We always take the truck side.

qbrozen

Congrats, @28firefighter . Can’t say I have any clue about BMWs these days, though, so the mishmash of coded model numbers tells me almost nothing. I would assume that is the highest-powered electric version of that car.

tjc78

Truck lanes always here too.

graphicguy

corvette said:

https://www.euroasianauto.com/details/used-2018-bmw-7-series/114892999

196k miles on a turbo V12 BMW... What could possibly go wrong?

Saw the video on YouTube about this car. Looks great and allegedly maintained meticulously. Still, would you want to take it on a long trip?

graphicguy

@28FF....GORGEOUS CAR. Nice punch. Congrats!

stickguy

graphicguy said:

corvette said:

https://www.euroasianauto.com/details/used-2018-bmw-7-series/114892999

196k miles on a turbo V12 BMW... What could possibly go wrong?

Saw the video on YouTube about this car. Looks great and allegedly maintained meticulously. Still, would you want to take it on a long trip?

yes because it is very comfortable. No because it sucks gas. I watched the video when they went over it. Engine bay looked like new, and not leaking anything. somebody took care of it.