The Stock Market and Investing

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  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I just look at it differently than you. The iphone is the small player in the market, not the guy to be cannibalized. Also I have always been disappointed with Motorola phones so this one wouldn't intrigue me. My current droid freezes up too often on start-up. I've had to open the case and remove the battery to reset it so often so I'm not that big of a droid fan either.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I just look at it differently than you. The iphone is the small player in the market, not the guy to be cannibalized.

    Well, we rarely disagree, so it's bound to happen.

    The iPhone is hardly the small player. As a single device it represents the champion in terms of market share. Android devices cumulatively exceed iPhone sales, but there are scores of devices all running the Android OS. No single Android powered device has sales numbers equal to the iPhone.

    So, as a result, and contrary to your statement, the iPhone is NOT the small player and it IS the phone to be cannabalized by competitors. It's the one most competitors have in their crosshairs. And, for good reason. The iPhone started a smartphone revolution.

    The luckiest thing that happened to Apple was the development of apps by third-party developers... and fortunately Steve agreed to open that door, because historically he closed those types of doors. He and Apple did not realize at first just how huge the "apps" market would become. Ultimately the apps became (and still are) one of the biggest reasons to consider the iPhone... although the Android market has nearly closed that gap, which was more like the Grand Canyon in the earlier days. Which brings up the point that the huge apps advantage that was once in Apple's corner has now nearly disappeared.

    TM
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Well, both of you make a strong argument and my guess is that you are both right. Each of you described one side of the coin. So I guess it is a toss up. (pardon the pun).

    Maybe the coin landed and is standing on its edge and whatever happens with the Euro economic mess will decide which way the coin falls.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Well in my opinion it is going to come down to who has the most reliable service...The network that delivers a signal and speed will get my business...The Verizon did not work in the mountains, although the mobile phone did, and it is iffy in the country.....What I was hoping for was to get the aaple phone, and have a mobile service that worked everywhere I needed it, and to then be able to get rid of the land based lines......The mobile phone doesn`t even work everywhere in the house......I have two hundred forty dollars a month to play with, as that is the cost I`m paying..I also hoped to get the mobile device that made the whole house a wy-fi spot, and I could take it with me everywhere.....

    Yesterday I was without the tv phone and internet for the day, due to a light rain...Several other people in the neighborhood were out also.....It was a nice day with absolutely no contact---other than going outside--- and I appreciated the memory of all the people who were in my life and remembering what life use to be like.....People amused themselves with parlor games, cards , and the art of conversation....My how electricity has changed life.....The very first thing that worked when the system was fixed, was the immediately on iPad, and what did it blare out ? Momar Quadifi killed........Tony
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Tony, I don't think any of the services are perfect. I have T-Mobile and they are pretty good. Much better than when I had Sprint. However I suspect that their 4G service does not operate everywhere for their data plan as the service is extremely slow in places like golf courses and other out of the way places. Still works, but slowly.

    Verizon usually tops the list for the best network, etc. but it still must be frustrating for you if it doesn't even work in areas of your own home.

    After the close of the Market today there was some discouraging news out of Europe on the bailout mess. Monday might be kind of dicey.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,493
    edited October 2011
    If your device doesn't read 4G, you are on the slow network. I live in a low-rise building...I can get 4G in my living room and bedroom which face the edge of the building, but if I go into the bathroom or parking garage, it reverts to slow service - and no 4G outside of metro areas.

    Europe needs some pain IMO...only way to set them on the way to a sustainable future. Eventually they are going to have to either pay us for our presence there, or do it themselves - both will have a huge financial impact.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    As of 10/21/11:

    AAPL up 21.8% YTD

    IBM up 23.8% YTD. :)

    Regards,
    OW
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Great as IBM is - that makes no sense given the growth figures the companies reported and the strength of Apple's Balance Sheet.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    edited October 2011
    After the close of the Market today there was some discouraging news out of Europe on the bailout mess. Monday might be kind of dicey.

    Merkel remains the problem. This NY Times editorial says it so well. Greece would never be in this position if not for the unified currency. So if Merkel wants the Euro to continue she has to get away from looking at things as if Germany was a single country with a single currency. A multi-country singular currency is all about balance and helping the weaker members. This is huge. I'm really thinking of pulling out of the market completely early next week if Merkel keeps up with her stubborness.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/22/opinion/will-angela-merkel-wake-up-in-time.htm- - - l?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    OTOH, no great mind is missing going forward into the future at IBM.

    Agree that Apple has been carefully accumulated and traded vs. the earnings history/forward forecast.

    Regards,
    OW
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    As of 10/21/11:

    AAPL up 21.8% YTD

    IBM up 23.8% YTD.


    That does make sense for this year, IMO... Given where they were and where they are. That said, I would not necessarily expect a repeat.

    TM
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    At least one analyst maintains IBM price target $205 for 2012. Sounds reasonable...that's 12% gain from this point.

    Not earth shattering but strong and steady.

    In comparison, Apple has a $500 target, a 27% gain. Very achievable.

    Let the investing begin!

    Regards,
    OW
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    If by chance you were to vacate the market, what would you do with your funds?? This is a perplexing problem Tony
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Anyone think Yahoo might be a good bet right now ?

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Just reading a bit on Yahoo. I think I would be cautious:

    Three years ago, Microsoft offered $33 per share, or $47.5 billion, to acquire Yahoo. Yang and the board turned down that bid, to the regret of many shareholders. Yahoo's shares closed at $15.47 on Friday.

    Now Yang, who turns 43 in November, finds himself in essentially the same spot -- trying to resuscitate an organization where a lack of operational vision and clear leadership has made it susceptible to a takeover.

    Yahoo's share of the U.S. Internet search market stood at 16 percent in August, compared with 19 percent two years ago, according to ComScore, despite a deal to outsource search technology to Microsoft. In contrast, Google Inc's search share has been steady at 65 percent, while Microsoft's share rose to 15 percent from 9 percent two years ago.

    Yahoo's U.S. display ad impressions fell to 10.2 percent in June, and time spent by users on its site increased just 1.6 percent for the 12 months ended July 2011, according to ComScore. By comparison, Facebook's ad impressions swelled to 32.4 percent in June 2011 and time spent by users on its site jumped 58 percent for the 12 months ended July 2011.


    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/10/jerry-yang-yahoo-buyout_n_1003230.html
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    This just popped up:

    NEW YORK (AP) — Google is exploring the possibility of helping to finance a possible deal by others to acquire Internet search company Yahoo, according to a report published by the Wall Street Journal on Saturday.

    http://news.yahoo.com/report-google-mulling-role-possible-yahoo-bid-163734904.ht- ml
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Now Google could get involved....

    Report: Google mulling role in possible Yahoo bid

    Regards,
    OW
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Tony,

    I think it is smart to be on the sidelines In CASH, or only partially invested in equities right now, with a good chunk of CASH on standby. Once the European crisis is TRULY over, I would jump into equities with both feet.

    TM
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I was just watching this demo of the Android phone with Ice Cream Sandwich. Wow, I think I want one. I have held off getting a cell phone since going on the Sprint Pioneer plan in 1998. Free service for life. Just pay a little for the minutes used. The Galaxy Nexus with Ice Cream Sandwich has me intrigued. Should be out on Verizon by the end of the year.

    http://www.slashgear.com/android-4-0-ice-cream-sandwich-galaxy-nexus-launch-wrap- -up-videos-22190129/
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,493
    I work in telecom and I hope that thing can be included in our free employee plan - that's what I will get. Not much impressive material out there right now.

    AMOLED high resolution display is a winner. Fun thing, just like with cars, the US will get the lowliest phone selection, and ages behind Asia and Europe.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    edited October 2011
    "I was just watching this demo of the Android phone with Ice Cream Sandwich. Wow, I think I want one."

    Yes, indeed. That's exactly what I was posting about. Gorgeous UI, and powerful OS. Some of the hardware, like the new RAZR I posted, is exceptional... and blazingly fast.

    The iPhone now has Siri, but I still think that iTunes is the single biggest advantage. Many people have valuable libraries of media within iTunes.

    TM
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    Keep your fingers crossed but the news today from Sarkosy is more encouraging that they will have a positive solution by Wednedsay. He used the words "team effort".

    Based on this news, I woul expect the futures will be higher tonight. Of course, this probably does not have much effect on AAPL, but it can't hurt.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    edited October 2011
    Looks like the Obama plan worked like a charm in Libya. The first thing Libya did today after their "liberation" was to declare Sharia Law and become an Islamist state.

    So, after fighting for their "freedom", (and with our help) the first thing they do is give all their freedom away. I have no idea how this will affect the market, but it is interesting.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • cheezhedcheezhed Member Posts: 44
    So much for the "new" Libya being a U.S. friend and a democracy.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,493
    "Team effort" = "Germany gets to pick up the tab"
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    Looks like the Obama plan worked like a charm in Libya. The first thing Libya did today after their "liberation" was to declare Sharia Law and become an Islamist state.

    So, after fighting for their "freedom", (and with our help) the first thing they do is give all their freedom away. I have no idea how this will affect the market, but it is interesting.


    I do not know what your source is, but this tells a drastically different story about Libya today. Besides, Islam is their main religion so what do you expect them to say?

    http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/23/world/africa/libya-main/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    My source was Yahoo news, from an AP article. The article was very similar to the article you posted from CNN, except CNN did not mention all their future lawmaking would be based on Sharia Law.

    I do not consider Islam to be strictly a religion. It is more than that. It is an ideology or way of life. Islam controls their spiritual life, financial life, personal life, etc. and does not treat women fairly.

    Islam will not coexist with other religions. Just the opposite of Christianity. Their stated goal is to convert you or kill you. There is no live and let live with Islam. That is the part I cannot accept.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited October 2011
    A very similar scene unfolded in Baghdad when we liberated them. Look at that ideological mess today. We are persona non grata. We have wasted billions of US tax dollars building schools, hospitals, bridges, roads etc and they offer NOTHING in return. Ungrateful wretches. Sadly we will not learn any lessons from this. Now we are looking at Syria.

    This best describes the whole Middle East.

    image
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    edited October 2011
    War in the Middle East is big money for the military industrial complex. Otherwise, there is no justification for our military involvement that seemingly never ends... It just moves from one conflict to another. There is no other explanation or benefit. It's not even about oil as much as it is about the war machine.

    There is clearly evil in this world, and it inherently by its very nature wants to destroy the Judeo-Christian world.

    So, what's the solution? I believe 100% that an epic conflict is therefore inevitable, and Iran is a major part of the problem and is smack in the middle of it. We will have no choice but to stand up to the enemy... which is not just located in the Middle East.

    TM
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I have to fully agree with you. There are those that are disillusioned with the idea of COEXISTing. It is not going to happen. The Muslims have no interest in assimilating into our western culture. The ones that are here are just breeding and bidding their time. While we kill off our children opening the way for takeover by an Islamic culture. It is happening in Europe and here next.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I found this tidbit interesting.

    Quoted in Korean reports earlier this week, Shin said Samsung “would do everything we can” to avoid further Apple litigation, but conceded that, due to the complexity of intellectual property and the scope of patents, it was impossible to be sure that the Galaxy Nexus did not still infringe on technologies Apple had filed.

    Asked about the bizarre relationship Samsung has with Apple, acting as both supplier and legal foe, Hong suggested that “there are a number of companies that we have multidimensional relationships with.” Recently Samsung filed for preliminary injunctions in Europe and Asia, attempting to have the new iPhone 4S – several components for which it supplies Apple with – blocked from sale over claims it infringes on Samsung’s own patents.


    http://www.slashgear.com/samsung-exec-denies-galaxy-nexus-apple-patent-workaroun- ds-20189561/
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    edited October 2011
    Surprisingly, Donald Trump is one of the few that clearly speaks out on this very issue.

    He has stated emphatically that as we depart the Middle East, particularly Iraq (soon), Iran's influence and power will replace us. Doesn't that sound just wonderful? It has all been a total waste. Trump believes that we should take over the oil in return for all the billions we have spent, otherwise it's all been flushed down the toilet and we get nothing in return except a long list of injured and killed young men and women... a typical USA scenario. I agree with that.

    Trump also talks tough on our out-of-whack trade with China. He points out how they are so blatently ripping us off, and that we are idiots for going along with it. I agree with that as well.

    Seems to me that we have given China a whole lot of our wealth and then poured the rest of it into the Middle East, building up their "infrastructure", all the while ours gets worse and worse.

    We really must be stupid. But then again, someone is benefitting, or it wouldn't happen. Lobbying? Special interests?

    It's all so screwed up.

    TM
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,493
    I am no fan of Trump, but on those issues he couldn't be more correct. We are making potentially fatal mistakes in those foreign policy areas.

    A few become very wealthy from this.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Until there is separation of Church and state there will never be peace with Islam. How so many young people could want paralyzing, forget about living Sharia law is beyond understanding. Sharia law makes you a prisoner of a God that allows no freedoms and if analyzed simply means God put you here to be his slave and if you fight it you're killed.

    And here is another big slap in the face:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/24/world/asia/karzai-says-afghanistan-would-back-- pakistan-in-a-conflict-with-us.html?ref=world
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    edited October 2011
    Steve Jobs was absolutely irate re Google and says the Android operating system was stolen off the iPhone.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45006227/ns/business-us_business/?GT1=43001
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    edited October 2011
    We finally have some good news on AAPL. Evidently, Steve Jobs (before his death) figured out a way to make TV's as easy to use as the iPhone and iPad. This comes from his biography (written by Walter Isaacson) just released. Analysts are predicting the iTV will be available in mid 2012. This news is one factor in AAPL trading a lot higher today.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Charlie,

    I d'ont know if it is possible to make TV any easier to use than it is now. I think Apple's just wasting its money if it intends to market a new set-top box. I d'ont see the masses willing to pay for a set-top box when they get it free from cable.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    A very similar scene unfolded in Baghdad when we liberated them. Look at that ideological mess today. We are persona non grata. We have wasted billions of US tax dollars building schools, hospitals, bridges, roads etc and they offer NOTHING in return. Ungrateful wretches. Sadly we will not learn any lessons from this.

    I don't recall their asking for liberation. Did I miss something?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think it will put Apple head to head with products like the Sony Google ITV Box. I would imagine all the majors will have them out soon. Maybe even for Christmas. I played with the Sony ITV and liked it. They sell for a little over $200. The Sony unit plays BluRay DVDs and everything else you can imagine.

    http://discover.store.sony.com/internettv/#/home
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't recall their asking for liberation. Did I miss something?

    You must have. I recall a huge crowd toppling the statue of Saddam. People cheering in the streets. I recall the voting and the enthusiasm of the people when they were given the freedom to vote in their new leaders. When all was said and done, they ended up with another dictatorial government run by Islamic radicals. Same in Afghanistan. It will go back to Taliban rule. The ones that suffered the most with the toppling of the Saddam Regime was the Christian Chaldeans that were free to worship prior to the current Islamic leadership I don't expect any better result from our involvement in Libya and Uganda. I was hoping we would worry more about protecting our oil interests. Instead we get all humanitarian and make things worse.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    edited October 2011
    It was a rhetorical question.

    Yes there was celebration when Saddam fell but the Iraqi people weren't begging for an invasion of their country.

    The middle east was probably more stable with Saddam in power. There wasn't a militant muslim society in Iraq. Further, he provided a counter balance to Iran. It may not have been pretty, but at least it was stable. Lastly, the last thing the Saudis want in the region is a democracy. That sort of thing puts a cramp in their mode of operation.

    Now we're left with trillions spent, thousands dead and a nation/region that hates us even more for meddling.

    Bringing it back on topic, would we have been better off economically without invading Iraq?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited October 2011
    Bringing it back on topic, would we have been better off economically without invading Iran?

    I assume you mean Iraq? I don't think it would have made that much difference. The housing bubble would still have exploded sometime. I think Afghanistan was a much bigger mistake. As we have witnessed OBL was not found and killed in Afghanistan. It should have been left as a CIA clandestine type operation. I think Karzai's recent statements as posted above say it all about our invasion of that country.

    Sad part is we did not lock up any natural resources with all the wasted money and lives.

    PS
    I don't think they hate US anymore than any other infidels.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Ys - I meant Iraq and went back and edited my post.

    Sad part is we did not lock up any natural resources with all the wasted money and lives.

    But that wasn't the stated purpose of these invasions. It was about finding terrorists. Locking up resources would have imperialist overtones and create even greater resentment of the United States.

    As for where the ecomony would be today had we not wated all that money - IMHO we'd be in a growth mode today. Yes housing would've collapsed but our debt would be lower as we wouldn't have borrowed to fund the actions.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,493
    I wonder how much of our war borrowing is from China. One mess enabling another.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Locking up resources would have imperialist overtones and create even greater resentment of the United States.


    We would be hated either way. Now the Chinese are tying up $3 trillion in rare earth finds in Afghanistan. You think the current invasion of Libya and Uganda are just because we are nice people? I think we are trying to soften the surge by China into Africa. We are in a war for resources and losing fast. Right now we have to buy most of our rare earth products from China. We could not build Wind Mills and Solar Panels or EVs if we wanted to. We do not have the natural resources required.

    IMHO we'd be in a growth mode today.

    You may be right as we would still be under GOP control. The wars caused the GOP to lose Congress in 2006 and the WH in 2008. I guess we will never know.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    edited October 2011
    The world is a competitve place. War is a primitive competition that still exists and like fools, we keep funding it. Economic competition is more modern and civil, and how are we doing on that frontier?

    The problem I have with all of it is that we, as a country and people, have been blessed with more potential than anyone else on the planet, yet we have thrown so much of it away, and proven that our priorities are mixed up. Over time, we are getting exactly what our actions deserve. Our mess is a natural and logical consequence to our misguided policies.

    I have not given up on our country, which I love dearly... but we are already so far downstream without a paddle, and it's going to take a whole lot of focused energy and strong determination and brilliant leadership... and that's where the pessimism kicks in, and makes it hard to be optimistic.

    We MUST make the USA #1 again. And, by that I mean educated, wealthy, healthy, moral, ethical, and powerful.

    TM
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Philosophically when you think of it, since the end of the second world war, the USA had all of the wealth of the world....Since then we as a nation have re-habilitade Germany, Japan, and the economies of many many nations.....I certainly think there has been alot of waste--for sure--but there has also been alot of gain

    I have no idea about the middle east, or Afghanistan, but what has been done is over.....

    There are alot more people in the USA over the last ten years, and I just do not think the positive effects of that are in any of the numbers.....I bet it will start to show up shortly, and there is positive action against all the people who have secret accounts abroad.....There is so much that needs to be done to right the table we `play` on......There is optimism in the `air ` Tony
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    Len,

    For what it's worth, here is a little story on the iTV:

    Apple TV Effort Led By iTunes Developer: Sources - Bloomberg NewsFont size: A | A | A
    10:21 PM ET 10/24/11 | Dow Jones
    DOW JONES NEWSWIRES

    Apple Inc. (AAPL) is tapping on Jeff Robbin--the software engineer who built iTunes--to guide its development of a television set, Bloomberg News reported Tuesday on its website, citing three unnamed sources.

    One of Apple's goals for the new TV is to allow users to search more seamlessly for a movie or show, instead of having to check separately for it through Netflix or a cable service, the report quoted a source as saying.

    An Apple spokeswoman declined comment, the report said.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    Len,

    What do you think? The news from Europe this morning stinks. Are you ready to pull the trigger and sell your stocks? What about AAPL?
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