Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn



  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    I don't want to break down "just right about before the warranty expire(sic)".

    I want it to be like my Honda Civic hatch (1992), only in 4X4.
  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    I am surprised at the number of people who want "SUV's" but don't plan to go off road. I thought that was part of the definition. Same goes for cargo capacity/hauling ability.

    I off road (lightly, meaning trails and woods, not rocks) in my Civic, and could haul a lot with a 1976 Dodge Monaco station wagon. A good minivan with decent tires could probably do both, yet not tow worth a dang.

    The Xterra fits nicely here, but could use a little better MPG. I would be willing to accept a 4 cylinder, as long as it had some quietness and torque and power. It seems as though most of the smaller SUV's are not really made for off road (more than Civic does; meaning 4-low, clearance, and tires) other than the Wrangler, Xterra, and Sportage.

    If Honda (or Toyota, or Subaru, or maybe even Hyundai) made something with a real frame (towing ability) with Accord 2.2 4banger (Camry motor, etc,...), Honda quality, 4 low, decent tires, a rear window that opens(or at least side rear windows that pop out for the dog), I'd buy it in a split second.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Hyundai has more sales than Subaru, so I'm not sure it's the true underdog here.

    We agree about the pricey luxury SUVs, though. I can't imagine forking out $50k for a truck and then hardly being able to afford the gas to fill it up.

    A Suburban owner next to me yesterday spent what seemed like an eternity to fill up her tank, and then proceeded to pay almost US$80 for it! Ouch!

    Any how, in relative terms, your Santa Fe is far more efficient than your Safari, no doubt.

    Funny thing is we have a Miata, a 626, and a Forester, and the most fuel-efficient one is, surprisingly, also the one that offers the biggest payload, cargo area, and overall utility - our Forester.

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587


    as long as you don't need to crawl over boulders, it's find for driving on the beach and through farms. In both cases that was with a full car load of people and gear, too.


    PS My worst gas mileage ever was during that beach trip, but I still managed 20.5 mpg

  • billtungbilltung Member Posts: 255
    Where is John your post#402? now disappear & take over by Hung post! Who deleted it?

    Are u already killed by those die-hard's perfect Subaru's secret agent? HA HA! because u say a little bit bad things about Forester?
    (just for laughs!)

    I want me to tell u something I don't like SaFe, well, I repeat one more time.....

    - I really hated Hyundai's not fair to our Canadian by only offering 10 years warranty to American.

    - I hate Santa Fe do not come w/ ton of Accessories.

    - I hate Santa Fe come out to the market so late..I almost miss the chance.. if I buy 1 month earlier I might pick the Triscape.

    - I hate Santa Fe don't advertise everywhere.

    - I hate Santa Fe is not make in Canada.

    - I hate Santa Fe price too high, should sell under cost.... mean losing money....HA HA...

    - I hate Santa Fe don't come w/ 200H power

    - I hate Santa Fe using the Hyundai's Badge, they should create a new Badge name like Lexus(Toyota), Infiniti(Nissan), Accura(Honda)....

    - I hate the Electric Santa Fe is still in process....

    See... I also hate Santa Fe so much......
    Please do not say I only post +ve about SaFe!
  • billtungbilltung Member Posts: 255
    My windows deflector is coming off 'cause I installed it in last December in zero degree with the help of a hair dryer.

    Are there any after market glue/whatever that is better than 3M tape that won't hurt the paint finish & at the same time can last in exterior conditions? I don't what to try the Silican latex, I think it will damage the paint, isn't it?

    Anybody here can help?

    BTW I love the sea behind your Forester, it reminds me about my childhood in Asia, I love swimming in sea than now in swimming pool just watching my kids playing water!

    Oh! I also want to try my SaFe in the beach one day, I saw the Safe on the beach in Hyundai's official Website, it so cool, the young guy go surfing with SaFe.....

    Axeixeira! Thank you for showing your beautiful Forester to us! How is your family & your kids? The kid in the 1st pic is it your boy? I have seen your Baby photo before somewhere in Edmunds, now he is so big, amazing hey!

  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    billtung, maybe your windows deflector is what bounced that missing message away???

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, we vaporized post 402. ;-)

    I'm kidding, of course. Hosts, can you help?

    Bill: I think your Santa Fe would be fine in the sand. It has wide tires, enough ground clearance, and good torque. Automatics are actually easier for sand, since you don't have to slip the clutch.

    Just air down the tires to about 18-20 psi and drive smoothly. Carry a tow strap and a shovel just in case.

    That's actually my cousin's son. My daughter turns 2 in June. We all went to the beach together. The highlight, of course, was taking all the kids for a spin near the water. What a blast!

    Just be ready to spend a lot of time washing the undercarriage when you get home.

    Bottom line is you do not need a Jeep to do light-duty off roading. I think it's fair to say that most people do not demand as much from their SUV as I did in those two trips, so feel reassured that a car-based SUV (or tall wagon) is very likely able to handle your needs.


    PS 3M tape is fine, just reapply new stuff in mild weather (60-80 degrees F). It's held my sunroof deflector in place for about a year.
  • hung0820hung0820 Member Posts: 426
    I have plenty of this extra 3M double side Tape and they have the red plastic peel off. They are probably have the best stick/glue. I was re-arrange my SaFe emblems and therefore I have bought 2 extra roll. Still have plenty left.

    Wow! You have 2 years daughter! I have a two years old son and a 1/2 year old daughter. I have to stay up very late to take care of my daughter now-a-day.

    I believe you have 2 sons! How old are they?
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    Had a dirty word in it, I'm sure that's why it was deleted
  • hung0820hung0820 Member Posts: 426
    Here is just a sample of my SaFe exterior Shots. I will do the whole project when I get my Digital Camera. I have try my best to PhotoPaint Edit to make it look okay! Thought I would share this information:

  • billtungbilltung Member Posts: 255
    Thank Axeixeira & Hung for your feedbacks!
    Well, that means no better things than 3M Tape in this job.

    To Hung:
    Wow! your SaFe is cool, I think your SaFE must have a lot of driver's attentions/stares on road. No matter people like it or not, this is something strange,.... Subi's guys may not like it, but I like it! I think lot of SaFe's fan also love it! Good job Hung!

    BTW, my elder son turn 8 & the youngest turn 4 this year, they have the same birthday on september 9, interesting right? They born on the same day! no kidding! Rush to the hospital after my elder son blew off the 4 candle lights.... This is what the birthday present to my 4-year-old 4 years ago. Now he became a Pokemon's trainer, his Pokemon --- is my 4-year-old!
  • dreadedrummerdreadedrummer Member Posts: 20
    Hung- I like the guards on the front, but I sort of think that the rest is a little over-done. I prefer the the look of the SaFe without any modifications personally. But, to each his own.
    By the way, Hung and Tung, how do you guys find the time to post on at least 3 forums all day long while holding down jobs and children both? I'm lucky if I have time to read all of your post's, let alone trying to write them! I try to read these posts because I am interested in buying a SaFe in the next year, but I try not to open my mouth too much because I don't own any SUV yet so I don't have much to contribute, but you two sure make it tough to keep up with all of your posts.
    But seriously guy's, keep it up; wether I agree with you or not you always help to keep the discussions lively!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Hung - what's the capacity on that roof rack? The cross bars look very sturdy.

    Also, I can see why you aren't too worried about the bumper basher results! Does the rear one attach to the trailer hitch?

    We're considering a 2nd child, but I enjoy sleeping right now!

  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    Yeah, nothing like bumper bumpers!!!

    What next, window protectors (windows in front of the windows)?
  • john284john284 Member Posts: 71
    My message got deleted!!! Biltung's Santa Fe looks like it has everything imaginable except the refined powertain or drivetrain, good compensation, bill, you should make the Santa Fe hop too, like some Latinos do to their cars. This way your SF will really look like a souped up curbside hydrant.
    For your info, my SUB forester doesn't even have a tailtip cover, and I left the spare tire in storage to lighten up the load, but I do have a pair of Rollerblade Coyote (SUV version of inline skate) so I could blaze any trail!!!
  • hung0820hung0820 Member Posts: 426
    My Children:
    Hi Bill! Both of my children born on the same month too and they are only 3 days apart and that's mean they are going to celebrate birthday on the same day too..Interesting me too....Wow!

    Rear Bumper:
    Yes the rear bumper attach to the trailer Hitch and that make it very secure. However, I can add the tow hitch if I want. They can share but need I have the extra bracket for it...

    My Reason:
    There are 2 big reason why I added the accessories and the parts into my car.
    1. Help the SaFe forum to see what they like to add on the SaFe options with pictures, etc..
    2. San Francisco parking! Really need bumper protection! I see too many car have bumper scratch and also at the door mold too. As you see if the car in front of me backup will likely hit my front bumper guard....You know what I mean..
  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    so now you have a bumper guard with a scratch.

    I think the scratched bumper would look better than nice bumper hidden behind scratched thingy bumper guard. Do you have plastic on your sofa too?
  • john284john284 Member Posts: 71
    I have to say that sometimes I find that some people have sheets cover on their car seats, making me remember that when I was a kid in China, I saw people never took the plastic wrap off their brand new bicycle, Bill Tung is the son of those people I guess. Welcome to North America, Bill, and don't forget it is time to wash your sneakers.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Well, it's probably cheaper to replace a bumper guard than a bumper. Plus it's probably more resistant to damage in the first place.

    I don't have them myself, but I can understand why some people do.

  • hung0820hung0820 Member Posts: 426
    Yes Ateixeira:
    Well, it's probably cheaper to replace a bumper guard than a bumper. Plus it's probably more resistant to damage in the first place.

    Not just that but also easy to replace for the new one at well. Also protect more for the car damage not just the bumper. For instant if someone hit the bumper powerful then might crash the grill in front or the door in the rear. These type of bumper protect was attach at the tow hitch notch front and back and therefore they will hold the damage much better. "I hope you know what I mean"!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I know exactly what you mean.

    Just drive carefully to avoid pedestrians, though. Jay walkers can come out of nowhere.

  • hung0820hung0820 Member Posts: 426
    Yes! Most people do jay walkers here! I pretty much know where the area to drive careful or not. Thank you for the advice...
  • billtungbilltung Member Posts: 255
    You are very funny! u must be a man with great humours! I just can't stop laughing.... when I read your post!

    Pls don't confuse bewteen me & Hung. We are 2 different persons.

    In response to your post#419:
    "I have to say that sometimes I find that some people have sheets cover on their car seats, making me remember that when I was a kid in China, I saw people never took the plastic wrap off their brand new bicycle, Bill Tung is the son of those people I guess. Welcome to North America, Bill, and don't forget it is time to wash your sneakers."

    You make another wrong guessing again!

    I hate packaging stuffs, I usually disposed all packaging materials immediately after I open the products.

    I have no relationship with those mainland China ancestors even I was borned in Hong Kong(One of the most advanced city in the World), & then graduated in Canada's University with a Computer Science Degree, & working in a few big International Companies in Hong Kong for ten years before I finally settled in Canada 10 years ago 'cause of the Tinanmen student's massacre crisis. I paid a very high price to settle in here though, but what I paid is worth, as I met my beautiful wife here & have my 2 lovely sons, & never need to head back to Asia except for travelling.

    I don't like live in Asia, don't even mention CHINA!(The country without free speech & terribly polluted environment).

    The huge population in China make China will never be a best place to live, too much pollution, too much crimes(even they keep killing those prisoners), too much illegal immigrants for other countries (Lucky I am not from China! & I am perfectly legal to be here in Canada!)

    Enough! Stop politic!

    Back to Forester VS SaFe now,

    I think your deleted message doesn't work 'cause if everybody just list -ve things in this forum, then this forum will become an ANTI-SUV like forum, then drive a lot of happy owners away & of course for those potential buyers they are prefer to hear more +ve than -ve things on our SUV's.

    Just my CDN 2 cents!

  • drew_drew_ Member Posts: 3,382
    Please check your e-mail (the e-mail address that is in your profile).


    Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
  • billtungbilltung Member Posts: 255
    Very difficult to convince everybody that SaFe is not an "unsafe" car until the IIHS front crash result have come out!

    To each their own! Pls don't look down on any auto makers potential, U never know what happen tomorrow!...

    Just my CDN 1 cent! this is my last 1 cent! more money...I'm broke!
    Thank you to all u guys read my messages in these few months.
      I'm officially quitting active status in this & "SaFe Vs Tribute Vs Escape" forums for at least a couple of months, but I will definitely follow up any major problems in my Santa Fe.

    - the Santa Fe flower delivery man, Bill
  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    Let's play pretend here:

    I buy a Santa Fe for $20,000.
    front "bumper guard" for $300.

    total is $20,300.

    Now, you say it is cheap to replace bumpers. Ok, let's say you get in an accident. Without "bg", it will come to let's say original $20,000 plus another $350 (that is if insurance doesn't cover it). total into vehicle after accident $20,350.

    With "bg", it comes to original $20,000, plus the $300 for the original "bg", plus another $300 for the new "bg" (if you replace it) plus any costs if it didn't protect the bumper (I thought these were "brush guards", no? total into vehicle after accident $20,600 plus any additional. That, plus you have to look at an ugly piping system in front of your nicely designed and painted bumper for how long?

    Same principle applies to seat covers, bug deflectors, car bras, sofa covers, etc.

    go figure.
  • hung0820hung0820 Member Posts: 426
    If you have the bumpers guard then most likely you only replace the bumper guard not the bumper....Especially if you live here in San Francisco. Parking is the major problem. I saw this morning at least 5 cars have problem with there bumper. Scratch, bend down, etc..

    The bumpers guard protect from being repaint the bumpers as well as damage the bumpers at low to relative high speed. However, some people find that the bumper guard look nice on their car as well and some don't. Everyone taste is different! I don't get why you bring up that money term for?

    Same principle applies to seat covers, bug deflectors, car bras, sofa covers, etc.

    Seat covers:
    People want their seat interior to last longer and easy to wash the seat covers instead of washing the seat. Also again some people find it looks nice and some don't.

    Bug Deflectors:
    If you drive on some highway and long trip there! You most likely see that the bugs stick in the windshield with the bug deflectors help prevent from bugs hitting on the windshields not 100% prevent but mostly. The bug deflector also help prevent from tiny objects hitting the hood as well. Again some people find it look nice and some don't.

    Car bras:
    Most likely people think they look nice but also prevent from washing the bumper and hood. Also protect the paint on parking when someone hit it, etc..
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Not that I would get one, but if I did, the main thing I would look for is one that could completely prevent damage to the vehicle, perhaps even survive a low-speed collision with no damage, so it would not need to be replaced.

    Look back at the IIHS results, and the damage from a single 5 mph "bump" is far more than the cost of a bg. It's $573 on average even for the Forester, which had the least damage among small SUVs.

  • curreycurrey Member Posts: 144
    The Escape/Tribute average was $485, the least damage cost among small SUVs.

    Although, all bumpers should have the same result of the Forester for flat wall bumbs, $10 and $0.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That's right, time to update my link. I was using an old URL.

  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    First of all, did you do the math? If you are going to put it back on, you have to add the price of 2 of them. For the bumper, if it isn't covered by insurance, then you foot the bill. According to Hung or Tung, it is cheap to repair this vehicle, so what's the problem?

    Secondly, I would rather pay another $100 or $200 than look at a "bumper guard". What is the point of even having "bumpers" if you need to guard them? I thought the reason cars had bumpers was to prevent damage to the car. What gives here?
  • john284john284 Member Posts: 71
    Sorry for missing Tug and Hung together, but you rhymes so well together.

    Anyway, my final word for SUV is that it is not from 'Souped Up Vehicle', it is Sport Utility Vehicle', it should be nimble, spacious and utilitarian, it should be scratched at least on bumpers!
  • hung0820hung0820 Member Posts: 426
    Would you like to take the Tribute versus my SaFe with the bumpers Guard. Let's us see what is going on.

    If you want scratch on the vehicle then go ahead do a good painting job with it. Otherwise people would say it looks ugly...

    Even with the Bumper guard you still can see the bumper. It does not cover the bumper all the way. You get to see the combination of both. I find it looks very nice on my vehicle as well as good protection. You get to see the bumper color paint as well as the chrome bumper guard! Both added to a nice exterior look. Nearly all of the people in our SaFe agree at this point.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You're still assuming there will be damage. The idea is, pick one that will not suffer damage.

    A friend of mine had a Dodge Raider (Mitsubishi Montero 2-door twin), and he put a big push bar on the front of it. In an accident later on, he rammed into a Mercedes pretty hard.

    Bottom line - he had to use a little touch-up paint to his black push bar, and his turn signal lens cover cracked. $4 for paint, $30 for the lens, plus the bar was $180 or so.

    The Mercedes' trunk had crunched like an accordian, the entire bumper pushed into what used to be the trunk. We don't know if it got totalled, but it was close. At least several thousand dollars in damage.

    I don't even like the way they look, but remember some are steel and they bolt to the frame. I think they are a bit overkill, IMO.

  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    I hit an oak tree at 10-20 mph with the ol' Dodge wagon on my way skiing with bald rear tires the day after a blizzard (I was in high school at the time maybe 1982 or 1983). The only thing that happened was the bumper pushed in a little on the shock absorber thing. Tied a rope or chain around it and around a telephone pole and tried to pull it back out about 2 inches. It came maybe 1/2 inch, and we just kept it like that and sold the car 6 months later anyhow.

    I rear ended a VW rabbit with another Dodge. The only thing that happened there was the plastic strip came loose (not off!) the upright part of bumper. $0.04 worth of Krazy glue to fix that one. $800 damage to VW. That was in maybe 1986.

    Why don't they make steel bumpers any more? Cost? I think it is cheaper than fixing all that bodywork. MPG? I think I'd rather lose 1 MPG for the safety effect.

    Please bring back bumpers on cars. Please?
  • drew_drew_ Member Posts: 3,382
    They have steel/chrome bumpers on pickup trucks, and look at the horrendous amount of damage that is caused by such low speed crashes. It seems that the problem with steel is that it doesn't bounce back after being hit, but rather it crumples:

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  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    I bet if they made them a little more substantial, they wouldn't have to worry about crumpling or bouncing back. Maybe like 6 gauge?
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    I gotta agree with Sasquatch. It's silly to need a guard to protect the bumper which itself was originally intended to protect a vehicle's body.

    They sure don't make them like they use to. For example, in a collision between a big American sled from the 60's and any late model car, the sled almost always come away with barely a scratch while the newer car is almost totaled.

    -Frank P.
  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    Thank you for reinforcing my point.
  • tonychrystonychrys Member Posts: 1,310
    "AutoPacific"? Who the heck is AutoPacific? When they win a JD Power or Malcom Baldridge award let me know. Funny, no other well known auto manufacturer ever bragged about winning an AutoPacific survey. That should be a clue right there.

    Hey, maybe I'll start my own company and start giving out the Tony awards.
  • hung0820hung0820 Member Posts: 426
    I guess you don't like AutoPacific. I guess you like JD Power. Here is the JD Power Award with Hyundai.
    HMC Honored With JD Power

    Just in case you don't know who is AutoPacific:

    AutoPacific, Inc. is North America's largest, exclusively automotive marketing and product consulting firm. We serve the automotive industry with expertise in product development, planning and marketing. From designers to suppliers to manufacturers and distributors, we provide competitive advantage in an increasingly competitive marketplace.
    **AutoPacific's specialization and automotive experience has made us one of the world's most trusted industry authorities.**
  • tonychrystonychrys Member Posts: 1,310
    Gee, you know how to cut-and-paste off of AutoPacific's site. I guess that makes your answer authoritative.

    And the JD Power award was for Hyundai overall sales improving, which is nice, but has nothing specifically to do with the Santa Fe.

    Seen any Special Limited Edition White Santa Fe's lately? Can't wait for this answer.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think Consumer Reports said the 1984 Escort they tested suffered no bumper damage in their bumper basher tests. So sturdy bumpers can be made cheaply.

    AutoPacific is well known to those in the auto industry. The result is something to be proud of. If you browse around Kelley Blue Book's site, they refer you to several AutoPacific reviews.

    Forester was 3rd best in JD Power in the class in Total Quality, and #1 in their APPEAL study. Strategic Vision awarded them with a few Total Quality awards, too. These are mostly short-term measures.

    Consumer Reports measures more long-term quality, and Forester does well here too. I'm guessing the Santa Fe will do better than people expect. Let's cut them some slack here - Hyundai does seem to be improving.

    That said, note that some cars that do well initially do not hold up well in the long-run. An example is the Chrysler LHS, which was best in class with JD Power, yet scored worse than average in Consumer Reports.

    Hyundai has done well in safety and early quality measures, so I think they should focus on areas of improvement. Starting with that 200+hp 2.7l engine from the Chicago Show would be a great start.

  • tonychrystonychrys Member Posts: 1,310
    There is nothing "really bad" about the Santa Fe, but some folks somehow think it is the end-all, be-all of SUV's without flaw, rationalizing every answer delivered to the point of nauseum. I think you can guess the rest of my talking points...
  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    As far as autos go, some people believe that the worse you do by C.R., the better off you are. They are that bad, that biased.
  • hung0820hung0820 Member Posts: 426
    Gee, you know how to cut-and-paste off of AutoPacific's site. I guess that makes your answer authoritative.
    **Most people don't click on the link and therefore I just cut and paste the meaning of AutoPacific so that it is easy for people to read instead of link back and forth**

    And the JD Power award was for Hyundai overall sales improving, which is nice, but has nothing specifically to do with the Santa Fe.
    ***Yes! The award was basically for Hyundai all model cars sales have been increase that tell us that the Hyundai quality is far better than the old time****

    Seen any Special Limited Edition White Santa Fe's lately? Can't wait for this answer.
    Why you need to see it? I believe you own the new RX300 but does it say SLE on it. You don't really need to see the SLE on the car. You really need to see the options on the car I believe. My car have most of the options add-on and they far beyond the other manufacture SE edition. Many of the SaFe within our Forum links have much other options too, not just my car upgrade. I have driven and have the knowledge about Toyota/Lexus for the past decade but I really like the RX300 too but then you can not really play with the car such as upgrade features options, etc. I find it not to fun and does not look as nice as the SaFe and well as price issued...
  • omnibudomnibud Member Posts: 24
    say what????? are you running IPSec, DES4 or
    generic tunneling?
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