Why is the Echo so much better than say the Yaris on mileage?
According to the EPA figures, there's actually not much difference. A 2000 Echo, for instance, is rated at 34/41 with the stick shift, while a 2007 Yaris stick is 34/40. Using the newer, lower numbers, that drops a bit to 29/36 with the Yaris, 29/37 with the Echo.
It's also been mentioned that with the Echo and Yaris, it's not hard to beat the EPA figures. And any leadfoot could still probably beat the new downrated numbers.
That said, the Yaris IS a couple of hundred pounds heavier than the Echo was, without a significant increase in power, so Toyota geared it to maintain the Echo's 0-60 times, with a consequent slight drop in fuel economy. Bad decision on their part, IMO.
But even in the Echo, I am up to almost 9 cents/mile just for the gas alone. That seems pretty high whan you consider that three years ago at this time, it ran about half that. That was a few months before Katrina, when gas prices jumped way up, never to subside again here in California.
It's funny, looking back, that we took such affront at the $3 gas prices back then. They look pretty good today as I pay $4/gallon, and I imagine we will look back in 2010 and long for the good ol' days of $4 gas....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I currently use almost exactly 3 gal for a RT commute of about 145 mi @ about 47-48 mpg. The cost per mile using VA gas which is E10 is about $3.15-$3.20 ( $.9.50 ) or about 6.55 cents/mi. Using NC gas which has no ethanol in it I get 49-50 mpg thus use about 2.9 gal but at a price of $3.25 / gal. That's still $9.50 or about 6.55 cents/mi. The Lord Giveth and the Lord Taketh Away...or less piously 'You can pay me now or you can pay me later.'
I've averaged around 16 MPG for the 145K miles that I've driven my car since I got it in 2003. I still have the window sticker, and it was rated (2003 rating) at 15 City, 23 Highway.
I've seen huge swings - my typical city commute can drop a tank to 12MPG, at an average speed of 17-20 MPH. If I take the machine out on the open road, I've gone a couple hundred miles at 2500 RPM in 6th gear, and averaged 26-29 MPG. This feels like the "sweet spot" for this engine... I know that if I run the thing flat out - above 3000 RPM in 5th, let's say, it will suck fuel at a rate of about 14-15 MPG.
Ironically, when I look at the economy conundrum, I wonder about where my gains would be - as much as I love the open road, if I were to try to roll along at 1500/2000 RPM in 6th to save some fuel, I'm not sure of how beneficial - I don't spend as much time as I would like on highways, and the city economy isn't gonna change much, no matter what. I have definitely eliminated idling time when waiting though.
A reporter from a large daily newspaper hopes to speak with consumers who have postponed purchasing a new or used vehicle right now. If this is you, please respond to ctalati@edmunds.com with your daytime contact information no later than Friday, April 18, 2008.
April 16, 2008 Impatient Subway Riders Revolt in Chicago By CATRIN EINHORN
CHICAGO — The packed rush-hour subway train had been stopped for about an hour Tuesday morning, held up by a malfunctioning train ahead. In air hot and stuffy, the passengers had turned nervous and impatient. Ignoring pleas of transit workers, they decided to leave the train and walk through the dimly lighted tunnel toward freedom.
The unauthorized evacuation, transit officials said, caused a bigger problem. Fearing that passengers could be electrocuted by the third rail, officials cut off power to part of the Blue Line, which travels a large U-shaped route between the West Side and O’Hare International Airport. Service was disrupted for about four hours, and more than a thousand passengers had to be helped off several trains.
“If those particular passengers had not self-evacuated, we could have gotten people out on trains and restored service much sooner,” said Ron Huberman, president of the Chicago Transit Authority.
Esmeralda Cuevas, 26, who works as an administrative assistant, was on the train immediately behind the stalled one when she saw a few people walk by a window of her car.
“I felt a sense like I want to be with them,” Ms. Cuevas said. “I was impressed with their courage. I thought, ‘I can stay in here with these people and feel hot and uncomfortable, or I can start walking.’ ”
Walk she did. So did an undetermined number of other passengers from a total of four trains, who forged ahead despite intercom announcements asking them to return.
About two hours after her ordeal began, Ms. Cuevas emerged from the subway crying, dirt on her hands and face. An executive at her office advised her to avoid the subway for a few days and take cabs. Since he did not offer to pay, she said, she plans to take the train, but on an elevated line.
You can have your big cities and Mass Transit. I will take the peace and quiet of the country and my Sequoia. I don't care if gas is $20 per gallon. I just will consolidate my trips.
For every instance like this - (what, once or twice in a transit system's history?) there are MILLIONS of people who take mass transit without incident and save themselves tons of money and time and frustration in the meantime.
There are hundreds of millions of riders every year who never see ANY sort of interruption of their commute.
Mass Transit is not an experiment. It's a proven system which saves millions of people dollars and minutes every year worldwide.
It's not perfect, but it's safer than riding in a car. And it's easier on the transportation dollar, USUALLY. And it's much better for pollution control.
You can have your big cities and Mass Transit. I will take the peace and quiet of the country and my Sequoia. I don't care if gas is $20 per gallon. I just will consolidate my trips.
Not sure if this is really a case against mass transit.... I suppose the next time there is a major accident on a Cali highway on a foggy day we can say "see, that's why cars are a bad idea."
I live in a city, and appreciate the benefits of both city living AND mass transit... and I greatly enjoy my car, and drive way more than the national average. I also enjoy ex-urbia. Both venues work, different folks, different strokes.
Having been a long-time user of the CTA / RTA in Chi-town, I can tell you this is not a one-time thing, whether it's the subway, elevated (or "L") trains or the buses (especially the buses). Many a day I walked instead of waiting on the bus, only to have the bus catch up to me when I was near my destination. Now I for one would not have gotten off the train and started walking with that 3rd rail not shut-off, but had to walk from a broke down L because the brakes locked up - again, waited until power was shut-off on the line, not just the train itself. And there have been times on the subway where it's been stopped for hours (L-train as well).
Put it this way, a few years ago the CTA was supposed to put out a bus schedule showing times and routes, what a joke!! First, the buses didn't (and still don't really) follow a time schedule except when the weather is anything but perfect. Then the go from late to very late. Second there was a budget gap so the schedules never made it out. The L-trains are kind of on a schedule but you just need to be on the platform around a certain time to catch it. RTA is better in terms of schedules but once you get into suburbia they really don't run long or convenient routes; mostly between malls and shopping centers.
I'm not sure how valid it is to criticize or support "mass transit" as if the term implies some universal standard. Certainly some systems will be better than others. In theory the idea of mass transit has value. In practice poor implementation may result in more drawbacks than benefits.
I live near DC but have never taken the Metro. However in talking to people that have their overall impression is favorable. I know that ridership has gone up with gas prices. On top of that trying to commute in your own car via the DC beltway is far from pleasant or convenient.
I had gone years without riding the DC Metro, but a few months ago used it a couple times. Last time, I went down to the DC convention center for the auto show. I caught the Green Line in Greenbelt, MD.
Now in all honesty, I could have driven down to the convention center faster than the train got us there. But it was nice getting off right there at the convention center, and not having to hunt around trying to find a place to park.
I'd definitely use the Metro again, if it's convenient for me.
Well, I can assure that more cities "get it right" than not.
I have used both San Fran and Phoenix mass transit dozens of times, and for the most part everything was on schedule and problem-free.
Canonizing Mass Transit because of one incident or another is a silly thing to do, IMHO. Like another poster said - does a shutdown freeway during rush hour mean that personal vehicle commuting is not a good idea and should not be used? The answer is obvious.
No system is perfect, but then you have to weight the pros and cons - and in almost every case, the overall "PROS" for mass transit IN GENERAL come out ahead.
Mass Transit as a personal way to get to and from work is not for everyone. But the millions of riders who use it certainly appreciate it being an option for them.
Sounds like a good place to work, but the service isn't too good. Now not to be biased, the roads are no better in Boston. Thus I avoid it when possible.
As gagrice said; you're better off out of the city, have your own land and your own transport. I live and work in a city of 20,000, and have a 4 mile commute.
...it already is almost upon us. Just filled all three cars today - the Park Ave, girlfriend's LaCrosse, and the new Caddy. Sunoco Ultra is an absurd $3.539 and regular is a not much less reasonable $3.279. It's expensive to maintain a fleet.
"...I live near DC but have never taken the Metro..."
I've taken the DC Metro when visiting relatives and really enjoyed it. I don't know how it would be for commuting to work though.
The problem with mass transit, at least outside of major metropolitan areas, is acessability. I live in a suburban area in upstate NY where there is no passenger rail for local travel. The nearest bus stop is 11/2 miles away. If you are over 40 or if it's raining or if it's -10 degrees that means public transit is non-existent.
This I think is why mass transit will always be a second choice for many.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
kernick says, "you're better off out of the city, have your own land and your own transport."
That's just your and his opinion, and it's fine to have. But just because YOU and Gary prefer that, no one should attack Mass Transit to justify their personal living preferences.
Some people don't want to live like that. Some people enjoy the hustle and bustle of city life and all a big city has to offer. I know that's hard to believe, but it's true.
And many people are forced by economics to use mass transit. It allows them to live their life with fewer hassles. People who have suspended licenses, or have lost a car to repossession, or who were forced to give their cars up to keep food on the table, or who have a good job but cannot afford the time and money to commute by car, or whatever.
Big City Mass Transit provides a real and valuable service to millions of Americans.
Anyway, I am thinking about trading my TCH for a Yaris and "downsizing" my life a little bit to help pay for more expensive groceries, etc.
With the cost of transportation and other items on the upswing, I'm looking into a mortgage refi to take advantage of lower rates and buying an $18K Yaris to replace my TCH and shaving about $200 a month off my car payment.
DC's "Metro" system, what they call the subway here, is pretty nice. It's not cheap, and parking costs a fortune, plus I'm not close enough to walk or bike there so it's just not a good option for me.
I used it when I lived in my previous house, and liked it OK. Had a bike and a scooter stolen from the Metro station, though.
But just because YOU and Gary prefer that, no one should attack Mass Transit to justify their personal living preferences.
That article wasn't written by Gary or I, but I could find other local reporters who have written the same thing. And to say "no one should attack Mass Transit" is just sticking your head in the sand. When something is lousy and corrupt , you should encourage people to complain. I'm glad the cities you have lived in have not been that way.
Big City Mass Transit provides a real and valuable service to millions of Americans.
It still doesn't mean it's any good. Sawdust and glue used to be mixed in the bread in Russia which many millions were glad to eat.
The NYC Subway system (and I am not counting bus transit) moves a few million folks every day, runs 24/7, and has improved dramatically in the last 10 years or so. I don't see a real alternative if we are really going to look at conserving resources. I also don't see a place like NYC abandoning mass transit in favor of more cars - the infrastructure just isn't there.
As for whether transit (or any other system) should be subject to criticism - of course it should be; everything can be improved.
The statement "Mass transit is no good" makes no sense in a vacuum - If you agree that the job of transit is moving people, then it works. We might agree that it could be more comfortable, more efficient, less crowded, etc etc, however the primary purpose is being achieved, and in most cases, cost efficiently.
A short distance like that would hardly be worth the effort to put on my cycling shoes but I'd be embarrassed to drive it. Mine is 34 miles RT.
I finally convinced a co-worker to start pedaling to work. He has a 4 mile commute and today was his first attempt.
Yesterday he said he was going to leave 1 hour early "just in case". He arrived with 45 minutes to spare and called me to say that there are now two bikes on the parking lot.
We had a meeting the other day at work. People were talking about car pooling. Only problem, everyone lives just 1-5 miles away and they are scattered around town. The logistics would be a nightmare for many. Everyone also has a busy schedule and errands after work. In the summer people are often on different work schedules.
I use about 15 gallons a month of petrol. Gasoline is worth at least $8 a gallon to me for the convenience it provides. If gasoline was to go higher I would look at getting a car with better MPG. I'm not saying I would buy another car, I would just look. My last fill netted 18.5 mpg (all in town driving). Cheap transportation if you ask me. It is hard to justify spending $100, $200 or $300 a month in car payments to save $20 or $30 a month in petrol.
The people that will get burned as prices rise to $4 a gallon are the long commuters and low income folks that have a larger/older gas guzzler.
Gasoline just went up 22 cents in two days. It didn't bother me one bit. To put it in perspective, my gasoline bill per month has gone from $20 a month ten years ago to $50 now. My cell phone bill, on the other hand, went from zero (didn't have one back then) to $100 a month (for the family). I think we have a few other people that post on the board that are in the same position. Gasoline is going to need to get a lot higher before it impacts us in a meaningful way.
And yes, I have thought about getting rid of my gas guzzler to save the world. Only problem with that is someone else will buy the car and drive it. The car is in good shape and should last another 10 years. Also, what will be the best kind of vehicle/engine to have in the future. Will it be diesel, hybrid, hybrid diesel, hydrogen, air, electric, eco boost, fuel cells or something else. :confuse:
"Sunoco Ultra is an absurd $3.539 and regular is a not much less reasonable $3.279. It's expensive to maintain a fleet"
I'm lucky that all the cars in my "fleet" take regular. That said, I most recently paid $3.79 (on Sunday), and the nearest station to my house is up to $3.91 now, up 5 cents as of Monday last. So absurd is all relative...
Remember when a few years back everyone was predicting that the economy as we know it would just grind to a complete halt if oil ever exceeded $100/barrel? That includes some posters right here at Edmunds, IIRC, and at the time $100 was considered some ridiculous, fantastical figure that would'nt be reached for decades. Oil closed just high of $115 today, up a couple of bucks just since the beginning of this week. The worst this year is yet to come, but I wonder if any of the so-called experts out there can really predict anything meaningful about oil and gas prices and availability in the future...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I think we have a few other people that post on the board that are in the same position. Gasoline is going to need to get a lot higher before it impacts us in a meaningful way.
Yep, doesn't phase me a bit. My neighbor just bought a new Mastercraft skiboat and looking at it all shinny and new makes me want to get my boat out of storage to clean up, fill up, and hit the lake.
If some think $4 gas will keep people who can afford $60k boats off the lake, they are flat wrong, I have no doubt the lake we boat on will be just as crowded this year as last. Our current boat is going on 5 years old and my wife and I have been talking about its replacement. I plan on boating for many more years.
Maybe to you it is insignificant. Not to those that went through the ordeal. Just because every time you have ridden mass transit it was a wonderful experience does not make it so for everyone. There are sections of the trolley line in San Diego that are very scary with not much protection from the criminal element that use the transit system to carry out their acts of crime.
To clarify my post. I did not say we should do away with cities or the mass transit that keeps the people moving. I said very clearly, so that anyone could understand, that I would not live under those conditions under any circumstances. As Kernick has posted many times if you cannot afford to live the way you like, work harder or get a better education. Accepting that you are stuck in some cesspool of a city riding some stinking mass transit is a personal choice.
I just posted one small incident of the failure of mass transit. I am not advocating anything except that it be self supporting. Why should I subsidize someone else getting to work?
If some think $4 gas will keep people who can afford $60k boats off the lake, they are flat wrong
That is just part of the AMERICAN DREAM. Take away the dream and all you have is a country of android losers. Why work hard if I cannot enjoy the fruits of my labor.
In 1983-86 when I owned a 22 foot Nordic jet boat with a 454 Chevy engine, gas was a bigger part of my income than it is now. Using 60 gallons in a day of racing around lake Havasu was not uncommon. Can't say as I miss those days but they were fun at the time and a good escape from 3 weeks in the Arctic tundra producing oil for the rest of the folks.
In 1983-86 when I owned a 22 foot Nordic jet boat with a 454 Chevy engine
Those big block jet boats are very cool. While my family enjoys powerboating, I could see my wife and I slowing down to a nice 30-40' sloop and become a blow boater when the kids are long gone.
I've thought living on a sail boat would be fun also. My wife is not big on that idea. My Nordic day cruiser was fun and the girls loved it. Not the best for pulling skiers. We did it a lot though. And we pulled up guys with old parachutes a few times. Crazy Havasu days. I was trying to remember what we paid for gas. Seems it was around $1.60 per gallon out there. Higher than the big cities at that time.
I believe what they have proposed recently was to suspend purchases of oil for the Strategic National Reserve, in the hopes that the consequent reduction in demand would alleviate oil prices somewhat.
With the summer driving season now all but upon us, I have no hope that any temporary dip in oil prices now would reduce gas prices at all. What it might do, I guess, is stop them rising just before they go past the $4/gallon mark.
Good ol' McCain, of course, has proposed something previously discussed here in the sacred pages of TownHall: suspending the federal gas tax to give people a whopping $0.18 of relief between Memorial Day and Labor Day. To him I say, how about getting in your time machine, travellling back 20 years, and developing a solid national energy policy?? It would be doing a hell of a lot more good now than giving us those $0.18 for a couple of months this summer. But I am sure some, if not many, people will say something is better than nothing.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
>To him I say, how about getting in your time machine, travellling back 20 years, and developing a solid national energy policy?? It would be doing a hell of a lot more good now than giving us those $0.18 for a couple of months this summer.
How 'bout saying that to Pelosi and the Democrat congress who said last April that she (they) have a plan to handle rising gas prices...?
I heard an early talk show guest saying that the problem with the prices is the dollar has slid in value. That's a government economics problem. If it were where it started the cost of oil would be 60$ per barrel. He pointed out refineries are at 83% capacity so the Petroleum Institute can't use that in their press releases to justify higher gas prices. It will be the need for silly EPA boutique gas blends that causes the rise now; couldn't the EPA have one blend for all areas that need special treatment?
Yeah, all I heard from the Dems after the elections was the people have spoken and changes will be made. I haven't noticed anything.
McCain's gas tax holiday is a stupid idea. While I'm all for lower taxes this gas holiday idea doen't solve the problem, if anything it will make things worse. Last thing we need right now is more demand for gas.
>doen't solve the problem, if anything it will make things worse.
It will allow the oil companies to continue to raise their prices.
If we're looking to blame it's the many years of Congress back 3 decades allowing EPA to block refineries being build. It's EPA mandating special gasolines. And lack of control of the oil companies. Maybe it's time to nationalize them.
Now matter how little we consume, they will always find an excuse to raise the prices higher.
With gasoline selling for $3.40 and headed for $4, (oil hit $115 yesterday) I'm reminded of the time last year when I first joined the forum. Gasoline was $2.75 and headed for $3, and I had just purchased a Honda Civic Hybrid.
Almost every post I made about the HCH met with derision from several folks; either the car wouldn't live up to its promises, or it would explode after 30K miles.
Well, it has performed as promised -- 47 mpg avg., and it hasn't blown up yet (only 22K miles, though). And it seems that current gas prices have quieted many of the critics.
Good.
As I look forward to this summer's driving season with no worries, I await the NEW thread: "What will you do when gas goes to $5?" .
since I last filled my Intrepid. I've driven about 60 miles in that time, so at that rate, it'll be awhile before I need to fill up again. This morning I'm cheating a little though...drove my '76 LeMans to work. I notice its gas tank is down to about 3/8. I might fill it up tonight on my way home. I have a feeling that's gonna hurt! ~21 gallon tank, with a preference for premium, which was around $3.62/gal last time I checked. :sick:
allowing EPA to block refineries being build. It's EPA mandating special gasolines
The refineries have deliberately cut back on production because they really aren't making any money. Despite the increase in gas prices it hasn't kept pace with the increase in oil prices and this has resulted in a shrinking profit margin on the refineries' side. So the refineries are operating at about 10% less capacity than is typical for this type of year. What good would it do to have twice as many refineries operating at 40% capacity as opposed to our current number operating at 80%? Today's high gasoline prices are completely due to the high price of oil, which the EPA has no control over.
If Congress could go back 30 years I don't believe they would be focusing on refineries and different blends of gasoline as a viable energy policy. I believe they would have started aggressively promoting the development of alternatives to burning gasoline. Something that is finally happening but a little too late since this kind of transition will take decades.
Gary says, "I just posted one small incident of the failure of mass transit."
Actually, you did it again earlier - the incident of the guy who wanted to get off the bus to catch up with his girlfriend, and he assaulted the driver and threatened him with a gun? Remember our conversation on that? It went about like this one - you bemoaned the mass transit system as being dangerous and I rebuffed that idea.
Gary says, Why should I subsidize someone else getting to work?
You do that now without mass transit involved. You pay gas taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, etc. All that goes into the public coffers and is spent however the guvmint wants it to be spent. You can't say, "I want my taxes spent on THIS but not THIS." That's not how it works.
Heck, I haven't filled up my 1989 Cadillac Brougham since last November with then less than $3.00/gal. Sunoco Ultra and a shot of Sta-Bil! At $3.539 a gallon and a 25-gallon tank, that equals $88.48! Yikes! :surprise:
When I first saw this board I had to laugh. $4 a gallon? It'll never happen I said. Now here I sit in NYS and watch as the price of gas has gone up over 20 cents a gallon in about a week. Hi-test is now about $3.75.
Now I really have to ask myself "What am I going to do when gas reaches $4 a gallon."
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
It would not do us much good unless we took over Saudi Arabia, Canada and Mexico. Remember Exxon is paying $115 a barrel for oil to send to their refineries. There is not a big profit margin.
I think if you take a look at the last two energy bills pushed through Congress you will find the reason oil is so high. They are not well thought out when you are dealing with a World oil market. There is NO reason for $115 oil except that traders are betting on the future. They did it before and the oil market went all the way down to $9 per barrel. That was from an adjusted high in the $70 range.
For you conspiracy guys. Take a look at the fact that OPEC cut production in 1999 by 4.2 million barrels per day. That started the upward trend we are in today with 9/11 fueling the market.
We could just colonize a few weak countries with lots of oil and problem solved for a while.
Today's high gasoline prices are completely due to the high price of oil, which the EPA has no control over.
You're right. But as others have said it is the failure of Congress and the Presidents of the last decades - both Republican and democratic that could have moderated high oil prices. The economic policies of the government during this time has led to 1) the current decline of the $, and 2) the lack of viable alternatives (ethanol from corn is a poor solution).
we are trying to buddy up with Iraq who has a LOT of OIL. Building superbases and such. Barrack will close it all down and completely pull out, giving it all to the next biggest gun carrying group in line. Thinking for the future.
>as the price of gas has gone up over 20 cents a gallon in about a week.
Expect more as the refiners tighten the flow of fuel. The refiners are the ones making the money, according to the expert I heard. If the supply is too high due to lower usage, the refinery volume has to slow to keep the price rising and their margin increasing.
Comments
According to the EPA figures, there's actually not much difference. A 2000 Echo, for instance, is rated at 34/41 with the stick shift, while a 2007 Yaris stick is 34/40. Using the newer, lower numbers, that drops a bit to 29/36 with the Yaris, 29/37 with the Echo.
It's also been mentioned that with the Echo and Yaris, it's not hard to beat the EPA figures. And any leadfoot could still probably beat the new downrated numbers.
But even in the Echo, I am up to almost 9 cents/mile just for the gas alone. That seems pretty high whan you consider that three years ago at this time, it ran about half that. That was a few months before Katrina, when gas prices jumped way up, never to subside again here in California.
It's funny, looking back, that we took such affront at the $3 gas prices back then. They look pretty good today as I pay $4/gallon, and I imagine we will look back in 2010 and long for the good ol' days of $4 gas....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I've seen huge swings - my typical city commute can drop a tank to 12MPG, at an average speed of 17-20 MPH. If I take the machine out on the open road, I've gone a couple hundred miles at 2500 RPM in 6th gear, and averaged 26-29 MPG. This feels like the "sweet spot" for this engine... I know that if I run the thing flat out - above 3000 RPM in 5th, let's say, it will suck fuel at a rate of about 14-15 MPG.
Ironically, when I look at the economy conundrum, I wonder about where my gains would be - as much as I love the open road, if I were to try to roll along at 1500/2000 RPM in 6th to save some fuel, I'm not sure of how beneficial - I don't spend as much time as I would like on highways, and the city economy isn't gonna change much, no matter what. I have definitely eliminated idling time when waiting though.
Impatient Subway Riders Revolt in Chicago
By CATRIN EINHORN
CHICAGO — The packed rush-hour subway train had been stopped for about an hour Tuesday morning, held up by a malfunctioning train ahead. In air hot and stuffy, the passengers had turned nervous and impatient. Ignoring pleas of transit workers, they decided to leave the train and walk through the dimly lighted tunnel toward freedom.
The unauthorized evacuation, transit officials said, caused a bigger problem. Fearing that passengers could be electrocuted by the third rail, officials cut off power to part of the Blue Line, which travels a large U-shaped route between the West Side and O’Hare International Airport. Service was disrupted for about four hours, and more than a thousand passengers had to be helped off several trains.
“If those particular passengers had not self-evacuated, we could have gotten people out on trains and restored service much sooner,” said Ron Huberman, president of the Chicago Transit Authority.
Esmeralda Cuevas, 26, who works as an administrative assistant, was on the train immediately behind the stalled one when she saw a few people walk by a window of her car.
“I felt a sense like I want to be with them,” Ms. Cuevas said. “I was impressed with their courage. I thought, ‘I can stay in here with these people and feel hot and uncomfortable, or I can start walking.’ ”
Walk she did. So did an undetermined number of other passengers from a total of four trains, who forged ahead despite intercom announcements asking them to return.
About two hours after her ordeal began, Ms. Cuevas emerged from the subway crying, dirt on her hands and face. An executive at her office advised her to avoid the subway for a few days and take cabs. Since he did not offer to pay, she said, she plans to take the train, but on an elevated line.
You can have your big cities and Mass Transit. I will take the peace and quiet of the country and my Sequoia. I don't care if gas is $20 per gallon. I just will consolidate my trips.
"Making a Mountain Out Of A MoleHill - By Gary"
For every instance like this - (what, once or twice in a transit system's history?) there are MILLIONS of people who take mass transit without incident and save themselves tons of money and time and frustration in the meantime.
There are hundreds of millions of riders every year who never see ANY sort of interruption of their commute.
Mass Transit is not an experiment. It's a proven system which saves millions of people dollars and minutes every year worldwide.
It's not perfect, but it's safer than riding in a car. And it's easier on the transportation dollar, USUALLY. And it's much better for pollution control.
Not sure if this is really a case against mass transit.... I suppose the next time there is a major accident on a Cali highway on a foggy day we can say "see, that's why cars are a bad idea."
I live in a city, and appreciate the benefits of both city living AND mass transit... and I greatly enjoy my car, and drive way more than the national average. I also enjoy ex-urbia. Both venues work, different folks, different strokes.
Put it this way, a few years ago the CTA was supposed to put out a bus schedule showing times and routes, what a joke!! First, the buses didn't (and still don't really) follow a time schedule except when the weather is anything but perfect. Then the go from late to very late. Second there was a budget gap so the schedules never made it out. The L-trains are kind of on a schedule but you just need to be on the platform around a certain time to catch it. RTA is better in terms of schedules but once you get into suburbia they really don't run long or convenient routes; mostly between malls and shopping centers.
I live near DC but have never taken the Metro. However in talking to people that have their overall impression is favorable. I know that ridership has gone up with gas prices. On top of that trying to commute in your own car via the DC beltway is far from pleasant or convenient.
Now in all honesty, I could have driven down to the convention center faster than the train got us there. But it was nice getting off right there at the convention center, and not having to hunt around trying to find a place to park.
I'd definitely use the Metro again, if it's convenient for me.
I have used both San Fran and Phoenix mass transit dozens of times, and for the most part everything was on schedule and problem-free.
Canonizing Mass Transit because of one incident or another is a silly thing to do, IMHO. Like another poster said - does a shutdown freeway during rush hour mean that personal vehicle commuting is not a good idea and should not be used? The answer is obvious.
No system is perfect, but then you have to weight the pros and cons - and in almost every case, the overall "PROS" for mass transit IN GENERAL come out ahead.
Mass Transit as a personal way to get to and from work is not for everyone. But the millions of riders who use it certainly appreciate it being an option for them.
http://www.thesunchronicle.com/articles/2008/02/22/columns/columns06.txt
As gagrice said; you're better off out of the city, have your own land and your own transport. I live and work in a city of 20,000, and have a 4 mile commute.
I've taken the DC Metro when visiting relatives and really enjoyed it. I don't know how it would be for commuting to work though.
The problem with mass transit, at least outside of major metropolitan areas, is acessability. I live in a suburban area in upstate NY where there is no passenger rail for local travel. The nearest bus stop is 11/2 miles away. If you are over 40 or if it's raining or if it's -10 degrees that means public transit is non-existent.
This I think is why mass transit will always be a second choice for many.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
That's just your and his opinion, and it's fine to have. But just because YOU and Gary prefer that, no one should attack Mass Transit to justify their personal living preferences.
Some people don't want to live like that. Some people enjoy the hustle and bustle of city life and all a big city has to offer. I know that's hard to believe, but it's true.
And many people are forced by economics to use mass transit. It allows them to live their life with fewer hassles. People who have suspended licenses, or have lost a car to repossession, or who were forced to give their cars up to keep food on the table, or who have a good job but cannot afford the time and money to commute by car, or whatever.
Big City Mass Transit provides a real and valuable service to millions of Americans.
I hope you aren't DRIVING that commute !!!
Anyway, I am thinking about trading my TCH for a Yaris and "downsizing" my life a little bit to help pay for more expensive groceries, etc.
With the cost of transportation and other items on the upswing, I'm looking into a mortgage refi to take advantage of lower rates and buying an $18K Yaris to replace my TCH and shaving about $200 a month off my car payment.
I used it when I lived in my previous house, and liked it OK. Had a bike and a scooter stolen from the Metro station, though.
That article wasn't written by Gary or I, but I could find other local reporters who have written the same thing. And to say "no one should attack Mass Transit" is just sticking your head in the sand. When something is lousy and corrupt , you should encourage people to complain. I'm glad the cities you have lived in have not been that way.
Big City Mass Transit provides a real and valuable service to millions of Americans.
It still doesn't mean it's any good. Sawdust and glue used to be mixed in the bread in Russia which many millions were glad to eat.
As for whether transit (or any other system) should be subject to criticism - of course it should be; everything can be improved.
The statement "Mass transit is no good" makes no sense in a vacuum - If you agree that the job of transit is moving people, then it works. We might agree that it could be more comfortable, more efficient, less crowded, etc etc, however the primary purpose is being achieved, and in most cases, cost efficiently.
I hope you aren't DRIVING that commute !!!
A short distance like that would hardly be worth the effort to put on my cycling shoes but I'd be embarrassed to drive it. Mine is 34 miles RT.
I finally convinced a co-worker to start pedaling to work. He has a 4 mile commute and today was his first attempt.
Yesterday he said he was going to leave 1 hour early "just in case". He arrived with 45 minutes to spare and called me to say that there are now two bikes on the parking lot.
But as an overall concept, mass transit works and provides an invaluable service.
Blame Bush, he gets it for everything. I think Chaney might have taken the scooter though.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Pedalling a moped - now that's a weight loss system.
1883, that is a long time.
1883, that is a long time.
Thats a long time to be out of work, bet his unemployment ran out a long time ago.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I use about 15 gallons a month of petrol. Gasoline is worth at least $8 a gallon to me for the convenience it provides. If gasoline was to go higher I would look at getting a car with better MPG. I'm not saying I would buy another car, I would just look. My last fill netted 18.5 mpg (all in town driving). Cheap transportation if you ask me. It is hard to justify spending $100, $200 or $300 a month in car payments to save $20 or $30 a month in petrol.
The people that will get burned as prices rise to $4 a gallon are the long commuters and low income folks that have a larger/older gas guzzler.
Gasoline just went up 22 cents in two days. It didn't bother me one bit. To put it in perspective, my gasoline bill per month has gone from $20 a month ten years ago to $50 now. My cell phone bill, on the other hand, went from zero (didn't have one back then) to $100 a month (for the family). I think we have a few other people that post on the board that are in the same position. Gasoline is going to need to get a lot higher before it impacts us in a meaningful way.
And yes, I have thought about getting rid of my gas guzzler to save the world. Only problem with that is someone else will buy the car and drive it. The car is in good shape and should last another 10 years. Also, what will be the best kind of vehicle/engine to have in the future. Will it be diesel, hybrid, hybrid diesel, hydrogen, air, electric, eco boost, fuel cells or something else. :confuse:
I'm lucky that all the cars in my "fleet" take regular. That said, I most recently paid $3.79 (on Sunday), and the nearest station to my house is up to $3.91 now, up 5 cents as of Monday last. So absurd is all relative...
Remember when a few years back everyone was predicting that the economy as we know it would just grind to a complete halt if oil ever exceeded $100/barrel? That includes some posters right here at Edmunds, IIRC, and at the time $100 was considered some ridiculous, fantastical figure that would'nt be reached for decades. Oil closed just high of $115 today, up a couple of bucks just since the beginning of this week. The worst this year is yet to come, but I wonder if any of the so-called experts out there can really predict anything meaningful about oil and gas prices and availability in the future...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yep, doesn't phase me a bit. My neighbor just bought a new Mastercraft skiboat and looking at it all shinny and new makes me want to get my boat out of storage to clean up, fill up, and hit the lake.
If some think $4 gas will keep people who can afford $60k boats off the lake, they are flat wrong, I have no doubt the lake we boat on will be just as crowded this year as last. Our current boat is going on 5 years old and my wife and I have been talking about its replacement. I plan on boating for many more years.
Maybe to you it is insignificant. Not to those that went through the ordeal. Just because every time you have ridden mass transit it was a wonderful experience does not make it so for everyone. There are sections of the trolley line in San Diego that are very scary with not much protection from the criminal element that use the transit system to carry out their acts of crime.
To clarify my post. I did not say we should do away with cities or the mass transit that keeps the people moving. I said very clearly, so that anyone could understand, that I would not live under those conditions under any circumstances. As Kernick has posted many times if you cannot afford to live the way you like, work harder or get a better education. Accepting that you are stuck in some cesspool of a city riding some stinking mass transit is a personal choice.
I just posted one small incident of the failure of mass transit. I am not advocating anything except that it be self supporting. Why should I subsidize someone else getting to work?
That is just part of the AMERICAN DREAM. Take away the dream and all you have is a country of android losers. Why work hard if I cannot enjoy the fruits of my labor.
In 1983-86 when I owned a 22 foot Nordic jet boat with a 454 Chevy engine, gas was a bigger part of my income than it is now. Using 60 gallons in a day of racing around lake Havasu was not uncommon. Can't say as I miss those days but they were fun at the time and a good escape from 3 weeks in the Arctic tundra producing oil for the rest of the folks.
Those big block jet boats are very cool. While my family enjoys powerboating, I could see my wife and I slowing down to a nice 30-40' sloop and become a blow boater when the kids are long gone.
With the summer driving season now all but upon us, I have no hope that any temporary dip in oil prices now would reduce gas prices at all. What it might do, I guess, is stop them rising just before they go past the $4/gallon mark.
Good ol' McCain, of course, has proposed something previously discussed here in the sacred pages of TownHall: suspending the federal gas tax to give people a whopping $0.18 of relief between Memorial Day and Labor Day. To him I say, how about getting in your time machine, travellling back 20 years, and developing a solid national energy policy?? It would be doing a hell of a lot more good now than giving us those $0.18 for a couple of months this summer. But I am sure some, if not many, people will say something is better than nothing.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
How 'bout saying that to Pelosi and the Democrat congress who said last April that she (they) have a plan to handle rising gas prices...?
I heard an early talk show guest saying that the problem with the prices is the dollar has slid in value. That's a government economics problem. If it were where it started the cost of oil would be 60$ per barrel. He pointed out refineries are at 83% capacity so the Petroleum Institute can't use that in their press releases to justify higher gas prices. It will be the need for silly EPA boutique gas blends that causes the rise now; couldn't the EPA have one blend for all areas that need special treatment?
I'm driving less to save the $4 gallon.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
McCain's gas tax holiday is a stupid idea. While I'm all for lower taxes this gas holiday idea doen't solve the problem, if anything it will make things worse. Last thing we need right now is more demand for gas.
It will allow the oil companies to continue to raise their prices.
If we're looking to blame it's the many years of Congress back 3 decades allowing EPA to block refineries being build. It's EPA mandating special gasolines. And lack of control of the oil companies. Maybe it's time to nationalize them.
Now matter how little we consume, they will always find an excuse to raise the prices higher.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Almost every post I made about the HCH met with derision from several folks; either the car wouldn't live up to its promises, or it would explode after 30K miles.
Well, it has performed as promised -- 47 mpg avg., and it hasn't blown up yet (only 22K miles, though). And it seems that current gas prices have quieted many of the critics.
Good.
As I look forward to this summer's driving season with no worries, I await the NEW thread: "What will you do when gas goes to $5?"
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The refineries have deliberately cut back on production because they really aren't making any money. Despite the increase in gas prices it hasn't kept pace with the increase in oil prices and this has resulted in a shrinking profit margin on the refineries' side. So the refineries are operating at about 10% less capacity than is typical for this type of year. What good would it do to have twice as many refineries operating at 40% capacity as opposed to our current number operating at 80%? Today's high gasoline prices are completely due to the high price of oil, which the EPA has no control over.
If Congress could go back 30 years I don't believe they would be focusing on refineries and different blends of gasoline as a viable energy policy. I believe they would have started aggressively promoting the development of alternatives to burning gasoline. Something that is finally happening but a little too late since this kind of transition will take decades.
Actually, you did it again earlier - the incident of the guy who wanted to get off the bus to catch up with his girlfriend, and he assaulted the driver and threatened him with a gun? Remember our conversation on that? It went about like this one - you bemoaned the mass transit system as being dangerous and I rebuffed that idea.
Gary says, Why should I subsidize someone else getting to work?
You do that now without mass transit involved. You pay gas taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, etc. All that goes into the public coffers and is spent however the guvmint wants it to be spent. You can't say, "I want my taxes spent on THIS but not THIS." That's not how it works.
Now I really have to ask myself "What am I going to do when gas reaches $4 a gallon."
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
It would not do us much good unless we took over Saudi Arabia, Canada and Mexico. Remember Exxon is paying $115 a barrel for oil to send to their refineries. There is not a big profit margin.
I think if you take a look at the last two energy bills pushed through Congress you will find the reason oil is so high. They are not well thought out when you are dealing with a World oil market. There is NO reason for $115 oil except that traders are betting on the future. They did it before and the oil market went all the way down to $9 per barrel. That was from an adjusted high in the $70 range.
For you conspiracy guys. Take a look at the fact that OPEC cut production in 1999 by 4.2 million barrels per day. That started the upward trend we are in today with 9/11 fueling the market.
We could just colonize a few weak countries with lots of oil and problem solved for a while.
You're right. But as others have said it is the failure of Congress and the Presidents of the last decades - both Republican and democratic that could have moderated high oil prices. The economic policies of the government during this time has led to 1) the current decline of the $, and 2) the lack of viable alternatives (ethanol from corn is a poor solution).
Expect more as the refiners tighten the flow of fuel. The refiners are the ones making the money, according to the expert I heard. If the supply is too high due to lower usage, the refinery volume has to slow to keep the price rising and their margin increasing.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
What is he an expert in?
Here are a couple tables showing the refinery cost and profit margins for 1999 and 2008 in CA.
1999
2008