The reward is saving $30 per week on gasoline. That's a bad ratio.
Again I agree. Most people riding their bike are not going to travel more than 5 miles each way to work. Of course there are some exceptions. There are places that have wonderful bike trails. If they are on your route to work it would be a great way to travel. That is not the average commute. Most will be on city streets at the heaviest time of the day. It just seems like an awfully high risk for such a minimal gain. Wouldn't be grand if we all rode bikes. Then it would be fun and not a hazardous means of transportation.
I read that statistic posted and the author was quite clear that finding stats on people killed or injured on bikes, based on the miles ridden, was not available. That would be the only statistic that could be related to car fatalities.
This statement is correct. However, it leaves out the salient point
No, it includes the salient point that the driver's inattention (or impairment or malicious mindset or disregard for the law or .. .) presents a danger to anyone nearby regardless of whether they are on a bike in a car walking across the street or sitting on a bench at a bus stop . . .
Basically, when you ride a bicycle in traffic, you're saying, "I trust you with my life," to a bunch of strangers whizzing by you in 3,000 lb. chunks of steel.
You're saying essentially the same thing every time you drive your car as well.
You're saying essentially the same thing every time you drive your car as well.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. If I am in a fairly modern car I have all the crumple zones and airbags surrounding me. If I am on a bike of motorcycle I am totally unprotected except for the helmet. So I will end up a quadriplegic with my brain intact. I raced motocross for a while and will not ride a motorcycle on the street. Just too many wackos out on the highways.
I don't consider riding a bike on the street with cars a safe way to travel.
Oh man, I could go on for hours about this one but I'll try to keep it brief.
I don't necessarily consider walking my dog around the neighborhood safe, since there is no guard rail between the sidewalk I'm on and the cars/trucks going down the road.
As far as bikes and cars sharing the same roads, I've pedaled from the Pacific to the Atlantic ocean 4 times in the last 11 years, all on public roads. During that time I also rode from Mexico to Canada and the shores of the Gulf of Mexico to the Atlantic coast in Maine. Also, several rides in France, where I spent many days riding between Paris and the Brittany coast. All this was on public roads and I'm still here to tell about it.
I commute 34 miles RT by bike practically every day on public roads, most of which have no shoulder. This is on the outskirts of a major city in the midwest.
No, you won't win in a head-on with a Hummer if you're on a bike but if people use some common sense, stay alert and obey the same traffic laws that they would if they were in a car they'll generally find that it all works out and is not the terror experience some people make it out to be.
"Bottom line: The risk of bicycle commuting is death or injury. The reward is saving $30 per week on gasoline. That's a bad ratio. "
The risk of driving is death or injury. The risk of riding a train is death or injury. The risk of flying in a plane is death or injury. The risk of walking is death or injury. The risk of commuting is death or injury from road rage or a heart attack. There is risk living on Earth, we have those pesky civilization ending asteroids whizzing around in space. :sick: Or one could get caught up in a riot, over fuel prices, at the local gas station.
Have you heard the expression figures don't lie but liars figure? I suspect the figures in your link are a good example. My link says bicycle deaths account for 2% of traffic fatalities although they account for less than 1% of trips taken, indicating bicycles are at least twice as dangerous as a car on a per trip basis. It also says there is no way to know the true number since miles traveled and the effects of weather can only be guessed at. If I assume that the average bicycle trip is much shorter than the typical auto trip the rate per mile would go up dramatically. To account for environmental conditions include only trips during day time and good weather since I believe thats when most bicycle trips occur. I suspect the true number is that bicycles are at least 10 times and possibly 100 or more times as dangerous as being in a car. I don't know, I merely suspect. Some of my suspicion is due to the fact that in my 60+ years I personally knew 2 people who died on a bicycle (One school mate, one child of a good friend, both teenagers on an errand). I never personally knew anyone who died in a car wreck.
Oh man, I could go on for hours about this one but I'll try to keep it brief.
From you perspective, riding to work is a piece of cake. I have a friend from Quebec that has gone around the World on his bike. He spent 10 days with us in Prudhoe Bay. What you are advocating is some poor [non-permissible content removed] that has rarely ridden a bike, go to Walmart and get some $100 POC bike and head to work. If you ride on the sidewalk as Larsb does, no big deal. Probably as safe or safer than being in a car. When you get out their competing in traffic you better be quick or you could end up dead. I have seen too many times cars pull out from intersections or driveways right in front of a bike or motorcycle. Only quick evasive action will save you in those cases.
I recommend riding on the weekends until you are comfortable with cars passing you just inches from your handlebars. I wanted to ride coast to coast and never felt I could spare the time to do it. It does sound like a great experience for the experienced rider. I got a 10 year old Fisher with all Deore XT components that I love to ride in the hills. I stay off the roads.
About a year ago, I was visiting an Edumnds forum that was bashing hybrids in particular the Toyota Prius and especially the ones that had the car pool lane sticker. One person who drives a high profile guzzler even wrote that whenever they would get behind a prius they would get annoyed. They thought that the prius driver was driving too slow or that the vehicle in general was meager in its performance. As a driver of a prius with a car pool sticker who had the forsight to get one in 05, I say to that gas guzzler now, "eat my fumes while I pass you up at the pump". And, as far as performance, I have driven, at times, pass 100mph.
"And, as far as performance, I have driven, at times, pass 100mph"
And of course, while you were doing so, the folks in the conspicuous gas guzzlers were all getting better mileage than you! Here's hoping you don't do that too often, or at least that you don't expect superlative mileage at those speeds.
On this note, I have concluded that NOTHING is better than slowing down and following speed limits, for saving gas. Pull away slowly from stoplights, especially if you are just going to have to stop at the next one anyway, and limit it to 65 on the freeway. Heck, I see large numbers of folks going 5 under the speed limit on the highway nowadays...
Sure you can pump up your tires, check that your car is in tune, limit your A/C use, etc etc, but by far the greatest chunk of your gas savings are going to come from JUST SLOWING DOWN.
Cheapest price in my area today: $4.27/gallon for regular unleaded, at 1 station not near my home that has huge lines as a consequence of being the cheapest. I paid $4.35 instead, at a station right near my home with no waiting. The other station is about 8 miles away and not on my way to anything usually (today was an exception, but I didn't have the time to wait in line), so with the 16 mile round trip I would consume that extra $0.08/gallon anyway, just getting there and back....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
How the mighty have fallen. I am reminded of the comment by the dingbat economist at Chrysler that said people would not change until gasoline reached $13 a gallon. What he fails to understand is that the car market is made up of many different segments - basic econ 101.
His inability to understand how certain income groups would react to $4 a gallon gasoline is amazing. It will go down in history as one of the greatest military, I mean automotive, disasters. The generals basically marched the troops off a cliff.
The change in car sales and the reduction in gasoline demand is a good example of why $7 to $10 a gallon gasoline is not possible over an extended period (more that 3 or 4 months). Too many people are incapable of paying for the fuel.
Here are a few headlines from theoildrum.com
Solving the pain at the pump SUVs on road to nowhere Land-barge SUVs taking back seat to gas sippers Ford CEO says shift to small cars here to stay 16 sweet used fuel sippers Gas guzzler graveyard Wanted: Gas mileage AND all the goodies Fuel-sipper smackdown
As a follow up to my previous post. Yesterday, June 2, oil futures dropped $4.00 a barrel because the Fed "hinted" there will be no further interest rate reductions. Now if they would only hint that rates are going back up because they decided that their function was not to prevent people who bought overpriced houses they couldn't afford from being foreclosed.
In the words of Pogo "We have met the enemy and they are us". It's not the Arabs, or Big Oil, or SUVs, or ...... Not that they are completely innocent but they are not the root cause.
Shoot, who is going to drive to Six Flags let alone buy a ticket? The last time I was to a Six Flags was Great Adventure in New Jersey in 1977 or 1978. I hear tickets now cost something like $60 each! That's extravagant in any economy! it doesn't matter whether gas is $4 a gallon or $1 a gallon.
A bunch of unemployed teenagers? Idle hands are the devil's workshop. We're going to see his industrial park!
"The Civic, Toyota Camry, Toyota Corolla and Honda Accord all outsold Ford's flagship vehicle last month
Losing one month out of 18 years is not a bad run for the F series PU truck of PU trucks in general. The smart money will buy a PU truck during the fire sale if one is needed. A friend in the pest control business bought 3 new Ford PUs last month. He got great deals and is very happy about the current situation. As far as gas he just passes that onto whoever needs their ants and roaches killed.
At the end of the year we will see if the F series is dethroned after 27 years as the top selling vehicle. Pretty phenomenal. Of course if you group the GMC & Chevy PU trucks together they are usually on top. Has any car been in the top 3 since 1981?
It looks like Honda was the only real winner in May with a 15.6% gain. Toyota was down with the rest of the industry by 4.3%
I am kind of getting used to the looks of the Civic. Probably a good thing with as many as they are selling.
The Disney Theme parks here in the US are up by 28% this Spring. A US vacation is the cheapest thing going with the devalued dollar. Hawaii was going great this year also. Up 18% on tourism. In spite of two of their airlines going under. Our flights were full both ways. I bought my tickets before the fuel surcharge and the new luggage charges. It is getting more expensive to fly. It will make a driving vacation more affordable even with $4-$5 gas.
At the end of the year we will see if the F series is dethroned after 27 years as the top selling vehicle. Pretty phenomenal. Of course if you group the GMC & Chevy PU trucks together they are usually on top. Has any car been in the top 3 since 1981?
I'm sure there have been plenty of years that a car would get the #3 spot. The Ford F-series and Chevy C/K would usually battle it out for #1, with the Ford usually winning. However, GMC sales were never anywhere near those two. It would provide just enough push to get Chevy/GMC combined sales to top the F-series.
Dodge was actually a bit player in the full-sized pickup market until that retro/big-rig style came out for 1994. That's what finally put them on the map. In 1993 and earlier, they were probably lucky if they built over 100K Rams in any given year. I think with the 1994+ style, they'd often break 400K units. However, the Ford Explorer, in its heyday, would do that as well. The Taurus, Accord, Camry, and Civic would all get up to that level from time to time, as well, and I'm sure the Corolla did too. I'm not sure if the Plymouth Voyager or Dodge Caravan ever broke 400K units individually, although combined there were many times that they did.
Gary says, "I read that statistic posted and the author was quite clear that finding stats on people killed or injured on bikes, based on the miles ridden, was not available. That would be the only statistic that could be related to car fatalities."
'Fraid not, my amigo.
If you need that data, see my post 8208.
It does a direct comparo with bike and car fatalities based on miles driven by cars.
The only stat used by the agencies who track these types of stats is the VMT. It's an estimate, as no one can know how many miles driven on bikes.
Since cars are almost exclusively the cause of bike deaths on the road, the only data that matters is the number of bikers killed per CAR miles driven.
You know why that is the pertinent stat? Because whether or not a bike rider rides 25 miles a month or a hundred, it's going to be a CAR which kills him/her.
The only stat used by the agencies who track these types of stats is the VMT. It's an estimate, as no one can know how many miles driven on bikes.
Since cars are almost exclusively the cause of bike deaths on the road, the only data that matters is the number of bikers killed per CAR miles driven.
Now that is a strange thinking. If I can drive in a car for 1 million miles without being killed, would it not seem logical that the same criteria should be applied to those killed per million miles ridden on a bike? Or are you saying that for every million miles driven in a car you will kill someone on a bike. You do have a hard time accepting the FACT that riding bikes and motorcycles is more dangerous than driving a car. Which is a lot more dangerous than flying in an airliner. The only logical way to determine safety is by miles covered. We just have to accept that the keepers of statistics do not have an accurate accounting of miles covered by bicycles and walking.
We only know how many are killed and reported injured in bike accidents. And it is a sizable number.
Years ago I worked with a woman whose father spent his working life with Otis elevator. She'd show my all these publicity brochures - the kinds you hand out in schools and a bunch that were aimed at adults saying that the safest mode of transportation per million miles is an elevator. My conclusion was that one day I'd like to go to Hawaii by elevator.
Lemko - for a good bike buy at a real bike shop. You would be correct that Wal Mart sells junk in that department. My daughter was on a Wal Mart bike and the front fork broke from metal fatigue. She was very lucky not to seriously hurt herself. I went out and spent the bigger money on a Trek.
Been a while since I bought a bike. Mine ran $400 for a Trek hybrid (no, not like a Prius) . Treks are great. The real bike guys can fill you in on others. When I was looking other names were Cannondale and Specialzed. Mongoose was a brand of good bike but now I see them at Wal MArt which tells me something.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
As midnight approached, they popped the champagne corks, celebrating a hard-fought victory that keeps alive the county's chances of landing the nation's first all-new oil refinery in 32 years.
By a solid 58 percent to 42 percent margin, county voters approved Hyperion's request to rezone 3,292 acres of farm land for a new classification, Energy Center Planned Development.
"What happened tonight, we were not supposed to be able to do," Phillips told a cheering audience. "Development projects like this are supposed to be outright rejected by residents and neighbors. But this project is a testament to our balancing the needs for growth and for protecting the environment."
At stake was billions of dollars in capital investment and thousands of high-paying jobs. From the beginning, Hyperion executives said they would abandon its Union County site, just north of Elk Point, if a majority of voters failed to give their blessing to the rezoning.
While conceding defeat, opponents vowed to keep fighting the controversial project on every imaginable front, pressing on with a lawsuit it filed against the county over the zoning procedures and opposing Hyperion as it applies for a bevy of state and federal permits.
Of course environmentalist do not believe in Democracy so they will try to block any kind of progress. It sounds like SD wants to refine that oil that will be coming from ND soon. I say bully for them.... Good Going Fred...
I think in 1981, the Cutlass Supreme actually was the top selling car. So it was probably the #3 selling vehicle that year. I added up the totals in another forum, and IIRC, the Cutlass Supreme sold around 450-470K units that year. The Chevette did about 430K. And I think the Citation was just over 400K that year, although it would steadily decline.
The Cutlass Supreme fell off fast for 1982 though, dropping to around 260K units. Still, it held on well enough to still be the #4 selling car in 1984 and #9 in 1985. In 1984, it was probably #6 overall, once you factor in the F-series and Chevy C/K. But by 1985 the Caravan/Voyager were starting to take off, so one of those models, or possible both, could have outsold it.
I think the Impala/Caprice was #1 in 1977-79. At some point, 1971 I think it was, Chevy just started grouping all their big cars together for sales, calling them "Chevrolet". But the total included the Biscayne, Bel Air, Impala, and Caprice.
The Cutlass Supreme tended to get top honors for most popular individual model, as the hardtop coupe was wildly popular. However, the sedans and wagons didn't sustain the momentum built up by the coupe. In contrast, something like an Impala Sport Coupe may not have been as popular as a Cutlass Supreme coupe, but the sedan and wagon versions of the big cars tended to sell well, too. Plus, the big cars had both hardtop and pillared sedan, both of which were popular. With midsized cars, even though GM did offer hardtop sedans for awhile, they just never sold well.
I think the Cutlass overall did outsell the big Chevies in 1976, and possibly 1975 as well. But the downsized Caprice/Impala were wildly popular, selling close to 700K units overall that year. Surprisingly though, the Cutlass still sold well that year, and I think managed around 600K. Alas, when GM started downsizing its intermediates, it didn't have quite the success it had with the big cars. They were still popular for the most part, but sales mainly stood pat or dropped slightly. In contrast, when GM downsized its big cars, sales simply exploded. The biggest losers in GM's midsized lineup were the "Aeroback" Century/Cutlass sedan models, and the LeMans. When the Buick/Olds sedans went notchback for 1980, sales took off. The LeMans, though, fell victim to the first oil embargo, and just never recovered like its siblings did...even with downsizing.
What's even more hilarious is the environmentalists kept the plant from being built in Kansas. The governor, if I understood the story I was hearing on the radio, was so anti on another project for jobs in Kansas, that Hyperion dropped their attempt to build the plant stating that with the governor's attitude, they weren't going to waste their effort for the refinery.
The governor has been mentioned as VP material for Obama. The governor killed two big projects that would have meant lots of jobs for Kansas citizens. They are welcome to bring the refinery here to W. Ohio close to the ethanol boondoggles. The GM Moraine plant will close in 2010 and with all the lost Delphi jobs and supplier jobs for the GM plant, I'll help lobby for siting the refinery here!!! We have pipelines in the area already.
It's odd that refinery usage has dropped this year to 82% rather than 93% and up? Less gas being used. Less demand should mean lower prices... Oil dropped $$$$ yesterday, Marathon/Speedway should drop 20 cents at least. They have gone down 3 cents in last couple of days. Exxon Mobile had already kept their prices at $3.85 and dropped to $3.81. Speedway had raised their price back up to $3.999
Isn't it odd how the gasoline prices are manipulated in some areas of the country? Remember the toilet paper shortages? Sugar shortages?
Lemko - for a good bike buy at a real bike shop. You would be correct that Wal Mart sells junk in that department. My daughter was on a Wal Mart bike and the front fork broke from metal fatigue. She was very lucky not to seriously hurt herself. I went out and spent the bigger money on a Trek.
Been a while since I bought a bike. Mine ran $400 for a Trek hybrid (no, not like a Prius) . Treks are great. The real bike guys can fill you in on others. When I was looking other names were Cannondale and Specialzed. Mongoose was a brand of good bike but now I see them at Wal MArt which tells me something.
I second this - definitely visit a real bike shop; big box stores are not the place for quality, for getting the right fit/size, for good advice etc etc. I'm a big Trek fan - they've got a wide range of products, at various price points. I'm not up on the current model numbers, however I ride a 2200 and a 5200 - both are roadies. One of the kids beats the heck out of a Trek hybrid, so they are durable. Any other bike that I really like is way too expensive to have civilized conversation about
Oh, if you are THAT sort on the bikes (the ones that spend more than I did on my first car for a bike) you need to talk with my brother. My eyes glaze over when he talks what he spends on bikes. Of course he uses them and each one has its purpose. His basement looks like a shop.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Gary says, "You do have a hard time accepting the FACT that riding bikes and motorcycles is more dangerous than driving a car."
By motorcycle, that might be true. I have not looked at the stats.
But by bicycle it is certainly NOT true - at least not in EVERY state 100% of the time. Not by the valid measurements which the PROFESSIONALS who are in the business of keeping these kind of stats.
Is it your profession, Gary? It's not mine either. But unlike you, I tend to TRUST the agencies which track these stats and tell us what is safe and what is not safe. I don't try to let perceived common sense override valid data.
And in the USA, in 2006, it was safer to ride a bike than take a car, per million of vehicle miles driven, in 24 of the states in our fine union.
And if more of those bike riders wore helmets religiously, it would probably be a slam dunk in all the states.
You know you spent too much on a bike when you are embarrassed to tell anyone what it costs. LOL. I walked into a shop once, and some enterprising young man tried to sell me a $1300 set of WHEELS! Yes wheels, not an entire bike. I told him they better be able to pedal, cook, and clean before they went home with me.
Apparently Mongoose is a name used among several bike brands and isn't a reliable indicator of quality. Most of the "name" boutique bikes have been purchased by big oil ... er, big conglomerates anyway. My neighbor just got a decent Raleigh for $600 for his 2 mile commute, and the bike shop owner flat out told him it was the same bike as a ... Klein, iirc. Or maybe a Trek. Same company owns Cannondale too I think.
My van's rear brake cratered last weekend and it was at the garage all day yesterday. I picked up it this morning and got dropped off 15 minutes before they opened so I took about a 10 block walk in the neighborhood behind the garage. Saw two cars idling with no one in them. And it's not like it's winter and icy here, nor is it hot yet.
Yesterday a neighbor got a washer/dryer delivered and installed from Lowes. I happened to notice them pull up and then realized 45 minutes later that they were still there - and the truck engine was idling the whole time.
You may as well bump gas prices up to $10 a gallon - people don't have a clue about how to conserve it, and they are happy to pay any price.
I just do not understand how you can relate miles driven in a car to miles ridden on a bike and keep a straight face? Anymore than I would believe you could have it your way with a Toyota...
Since cars are almost exclusively the cause of bike deaths on the road, the only data that matters is the number of bikers killed per CAR miles driven.
You know why that is the pertinent stat? Because whether or not a bike rider rides 25 miles a month or a hundred, it's going to be a CAR which kills him/her.
But, how many car/bike collisions are partly or mostly the responsibility of inconsiderate and stupid bike riders. I see plenty of bike riders on the roads on weekends from Spring to Fall in our rural area. Many apparently bring their bikes on car carriers or SUVs and park in a small town nearby and then head for the back roads and sometimes the numbered highways.
Just last Sunday at noon, while travelling in our car on a 55 MPH US numbered highway that has plenty of curves, dips and crests and almost all double-yellow, we encountererd an idiot woman bike rider riding at the edge of the pavement. We and vehicles in front and behind us slowed to perhaps 15-20 MPH to gingerly hug the double-yellow line and safely get past this rider.
It is not uncommon to encounter packs of bicyclists, some riding 2, 3 or 4 abreast and using up all of the roadway on county backroads marked for 55 MPH. Some seem indignant that a motorist expects them to form a single file and ride at the edge of the road.
Bicyclists could do everyone a favor and ride on the side streets in their own neighborhoods in the cities or suburbs that they live in without wasting gasoline to drive out to rural areas.
I see too many irresponsible "adult" bike riders to trust their moves. I always slow way down upon encounter and give a very wide berth.
had a trek in HS - over 20 yrs ago, paid $250 for it. either that or walk 40 mins each way to school. Took it to college and it served me very well traveling back and forth to classes and dorms, except when it comes to scoring chicks.
I don't know - ask the professionals who do it for a living. They not only do it "with a straight face" but also report their findings to anyone interested in the data. Apparently, there is a perfectly good reason for that data to be pertinent in it's existing form.
"Your comment makes me wonder how many other "baby boomers" will be doing the same. The total number of new RVers could be substantial. "
RVing as an alternative to buying a home? that might save you some money, but it's a poor investment in the future.
RV sales are in a world of pain right now. Not many people are willing to fund the bill at the pump to travel with 30 something feet of home on wheels. People are down sizing now - homes, cars, travel trailers.....
I sold my tiny pop up tent trailer recently and had so many responses within the first hour of posting it was crazy. Someone trying to unload a giant RV today is looking at some big time depreciation from just a year ago.
I'm sure many of them are the fault of the bike riders. Humans make mistakes and bad judgments all the time.
I just know that in my personal commute, on Segway and on bike, the only time I have had near misses were because the driver of a car has not seen me. And I ride on the sidewalk - my near misses are all at intersections.
( That's just my personal experience - all others will vary accordingly.)
It is not uncommon to encounter packs of bicyclists, some riding 2, 3 or 4 abreast and using up all of the roadway on county backroads marked for 55 MPH. Some seem indignant that a motorist expects them to form a single file and ride at the edge of the road.
That brings up an interesting point. If a car can be ticketing for going too slow and holding up traffic. Does that apply to people on bicycles?
I do understand folks coming out to our area to ride their bikes on the weekend. It is very nice and quiet with lots of up and down hills to test your stamina. I always slow down just in case they hit a sandy spot on the road and go down. I don't want to be the one that runs over them. That was always my fear riding my bike along Alii Dr. in Kona. It was about 5 miles from my condo to Kailua. All very narrow without any bike lanes.
Not by the valid measurements which the PROFESSIONALS who are in the business of keeping these kind of stats.
We're not saying the stats are wrong; we're saying you're misinterpreting what the stats mean. They do not prove what you are taking them to mean.
What you are trying to glean (whether a car or a bike ridden is safer) would have to be: (the total # of miles of cars in a year / # of fatalities) compared to (the total # of miles of bikes / # of fatalities and injuries).
Since there are more cars than bikes, and each car in this country is driven about 100X the distance of a bike, you will find cars are much safer than bikes.
And if you did a study you'd find that bikes are pretty safe when ridden away the street, a little more dangerous when ridden on the sidewalk, and very dangerous when ridden on the street with cars and no barrier.
And bike helmets are designed to withstand the impact from falling from the bike and hitting the ground. They are nowhere near as strong as race car helmets or motorcycle helmets. A bike helmet is not made to withstand a person being knocked from a bike and propelled to 50mph, or made to withstand a vehicle being driven at 30mph or more, running directly over it.
If you're going to ride a bicycle get as far away from traffic as you can. You may have not had an accident so far, but the further you are from the fire the safer you are.
accidents will happen. people are stupid at times. what will you be wrapped in when someone in a 3-5000 lb vehicle hits you by mistake? $30 gas is 7.5 gallons or 140-185 miles of driving. That's 15-20 hrs if on a bike. That's a lot of exposure. That's also 10-15 hrs of 'not home' time per week. Nobody needs that much fitness. Biking on a separate bike trail for exercise is much safer and I am all for it. My town has so many trails I haven't even found them all yet. I feel less safe when I drive my 3300 lb Mustang than when I drive my Sonoma or Silverado. A bike on a 20 foot wide 40-55 mph road with no shoulder and I don't know if the approaching from behind car has got decent wipers? while a car sits home in the driveway? And for what? china and india will add 100 million new motorists within a decade.
Comments
Again I agree. Most people riding their bike are not going to travel more than 5 miles each way to work. Of course there are some exceptions. There are places that have wonderful bike trails. If they are on your route to work it would be a great way to travel. That is not the average commute. Most will be on city streets at the heaviest time of the day. It just seems like an awfully high risk for such a minimal gain. Wouldn't be grand if we all rode bikes. Then it would be fun and not a hazardous means of transportation.
I read that statistic posted and the author was quite clear that finding stats on people killed or injured on bikes, based on the miles ridden, was not available. That would be the only statistic that could be related to car fatalities.
give me an example of a brain dead phd you can get from northwestern. :confuse:
take guess at what vehicle she drives.
No, it includes the salient point that the driver's inattention (or impairment or malicious mindset or disregard for the law or .. .) presents a danger to anyone nearby regardless of whether they are on a bike in a car walking across the street or sitting on a bench at a bus stop . . .
Basically, when you ride a bicycle in traffic, you're saying, "I trust you with my life," to a bunch of strangers whizzing by you in 3,000 lb. chunks of steel.
You're saying essentially the same thing every time you drive your car as well.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. If I am in a fairly modern car I have all the crumple zones and airbags surrounding me. If I am on a bike of motorcycle I am totally unprotected except for the helmet. So I will end up a quadriplegic with my brain intact. I raced motocross for a while and will not ride a motorcycle on the street. Just too many wackos out on the highways.
Now, there's an idea. Maybe rollerblading will make a comeback. Skateboards will become more socially acceptable. :P
Oh man, I could go on for hours about this one but I'll try to keep it brief.
I don't necessarily consider walking my dog around the neighborhood safe, since there is no guard rail between the sidewalk I'm on and the cars/trucks going down the road.
As far as bikes and cars sharing the same roads, I've pedaled from the Pacific to the Atlantic ocean 4 times in the last 11 years, all on public roads. During that time I also rode from Mexico to Canada and the shores of the Gulf of Mexico to the Atlantic coast in Maine. Also, several rides in France, where I spent many days riding between Paris and the Brittany coast. All this was on public roads and I'm still here to tell about it.
I commute 34 miles RT by bike practically every day on public roads, most of which have no shoulder. This is on the outskirts of a major city in the midwest.
No, you won't win in a head-on with a Hummer if you're on a bike but if people use some common sense, stay alert and obey the same traffic laws that they would if they were in a car they'll generally find that it all works out and is not the terror experience some people make it out to be.
The risk of driving is death or injury.
The risk of riding a train is death or injury.
The risk of flying in a plane is death or injury.
The risk of walking is death or injury.
The risk of commuting is death or injury from road rage or a heart attack.
There is risk living on Earth, we have those pesky civilization ending asteroids whizzing around in space. :sick:
Or one could get caught up in a riot, over fuel prices, at the local gas station.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/bc756fc0-2d9b-11dd-b92a-000077b07658.html?nclick_check- =1
http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11453151
http://www.bicyclinginfo.org/facts/crash-facts.cfm
From you perspective, riding to work is a piece of cake. I have a friend from Quebec that has gone around the World on his bike. He spent 10 days with us in Prudhoe Bay. What you are advocating is some poor [non-permissible content removed] that has rarely ridden a bike, go to Walmart and get some $100 POC bike and head to work. If you ride on the sidewalk as Larsb does, no big deal. Probably as safe or safer than being in a car. When you get out their competing in traffic you better be quick or you could end up dead. I have seen too many times cars pull out from intersections or driveways right in front of a bike or motorcycle. Only quick evasive action will save you in those cases.
I recommend riding on the weekends until you are comfortable with cars passing you just inches from your handlebars. I wanted to ride coast to coast and never felt I could spare the time to do it. It does sound like a great experience for the experienced rider. I got a 10 year old Fisher with all Deore XT components that I love to ride in the hills. I stay off the roads.
And of course, while you were doing so, the folks in the conspicuous gas guzzlers were all getting better mileage than you! Here's hoping you don't do that too often, or at least that you don't expect superlative mileage at those speeds.
On this note, I have concluded that NOTHING is better than slowing down and following speed limits, for saving gas. Pull away slowly from stoplights, especially if you are just going to have to stop at the next one anyway, and limit it to 65 on the freeway. Heck, I see large numbers of folks going 5 under the speed limit on the highway nowadays...
Sure you can pump up your tires, check that your car is in tune, limit your A/C use, etc etc, but by far the greatest chunk of your gas savings are going to come from JUST SLOWING DOWN.
Cheapest price in my area today: $4.27/gallon for regular unleaded, at 1 station not near my home that has huge lines as a consequence of being the cheapest. I paid $4.35 instead, at a station right near my home with no waiting. The other station is about 8 miles away and not on my way to anything usually (today was an exception, but I didn't have the time to wait in line), so with the 16 mile round trip I would consume that extra $0.08/gallon anyway, just getting there and back....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080604/AUTO01/806040395/1148- - -
How the mighty have fallen. I am reminded of the comment by the dingbat economist at Chrysler that said people would not change until gasoline reached $13 a gallon. What he fails to understand is that the car market is made up of many different segments - basic econ 101.
His inability to understand how certain income groups would react to $4 a gallon gasoline is amazing. It will go down in history as one of the greatest military, I mean automotive, disasters. The generals basically marched the troops off a cliff.
The change in car sales and the reduction in gasoline demand is a good example of why $7 to $10 a gallon gasoline is not possible over an extended period (more that 3 or 4 months). Too many people are incapable of paying for the fuel.
Here are a few headlines from theoildrum.com
Solving the pain at the pump
SUVs on road to nowhere
Land-barge SUVs taking back seat to gas sippers
Ford CEO says shift to small cars here to stay
16 sweet used fuel sippers
Gas guzzler graveyard
Wanted: Gas mileage AND all the goodies
Fuel-sipper smackdown
GM to close 4 factories, may drop Hummer: Automaker to curtail truck, SUV production amid soaring fuel prices
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4097#more
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12400801
In the words of Pogo "We have met the enemy and they are us". It's not the Arabs, or Big Oil, or SUVs, or ...... Not that they are completely innocent but they are not the root cause.
A bunch of unemployed teenagers? Idle hands are the devil's workshop. We're going to see his industrial park!
Losing one month out of 18 years is not a bad run for the F series PU truck of PU trucks in general. The smart money will buy a PU truck during the fire sale if one is needed. A friend in the pest control business bought 3 new Ford PUs last month. He got great deals and is very happy about the current situation. As far as gas he just passes that onto whoever needs their ants and roaches killed.
At the end of the year we will see if the F series is dethroned after 27 years as the top selling vehicle. Pretty phenomenal. Of course if you group the GMC & Chevy PU trucks together they are usually on top. Has any car been in the top 3 since 1981?
It looks like Honda was the only real winner in May with a 15.6% gain. Toyota was down with the rest of the industry by 4.3%
I am kind of getting used to the looks of the Civic. Probably a good thing with as many as they are selling.
I'm sure there have been plenty of years that a car would get the #3 spot. The Ford F-series and Chevy C/K would usually battle it out for #1, with the Ford usually winning. However, GMC sales were never anywhere near those two. It would provide just enough push to get Chevy/GMC combined sales to top the F-series.
Dodge was actually a bit player in the full-sized pickup market until that retro/big-rig style came out for 1994. That's what finally put them on the map. In 1993 and earlier, they were probably lucky if they built over 100K Rams in any given year. I think with the 1994+ style, they'd often break 400K units. However, the Ford Explorer, in its heyday, would do that as well. The Taurus, Accord, Camry, and Civic would all get up to that level from time to time, as well, and I'm sure the Corolla did too. I'm not sure if the Plymouth Voyager or Dodge Caravan ever broke 400K units individually, although combined there were many times that they did.
'Fraid not, my amigo.
If you need that data, see my post 8208.
It does a direct comparo with bike and car fatalities based on miles driven by cars.
The only stat used by the agencies who track these types of stats is the VMT. It's an estimate, as no one can know how many miles driven on bikes.
Since cars are almost exclusively the cause of bike deaths on the road, the only data that matters is the number of bikers killed per CAR miles driven.
You know why that is the pertinent stat? Because whether or not a bike rider rides 25 miles a month or a hundred, it's going to be a CAR which kills him/her.
Since cars are almost exclusively the cause of bike deaths on the road, the only data that matters is the number of bikers killed per CAR miles driven.
Now that is a strange thinking. If I can drive in a car for 1 million miles without being killed, would it not seem logical that the same criteria should be applied to those killed per million miles ridden on a bike? Or are you saying that for every million miles driven in a car you will kill someone on a bike. You do have a hard time accepting the FACT that riding bikes and motorcycles is more dangerous than driving a car. Which is a lot more dangerous than flying in an airliner. The only logical way to determine safety is by miles covered. We just have to accept that the keepers of statistics do not have an accurate accounting of miles covered by bicycles and walking.
We only know how many are killed and reported injured in bike accidents. And it is a sizable number.
Years ago I worked with a woman whose father spent his working life with Otis elevator. She'd show my all these publicity brochures - the kinds you hand out in schools and a bunch that were aimed at adults saying that the safest mode of transportation per million miles is an elevator. My conclusion was that one day I'd like to go to Hawaii by elevator.
Lemko - for a good bike buy at a real bike shop. You would be correct that Wal Mart sells junk in that department. My daughter was on a Wal Mart bike and the front fork broke from metal fatigue. She was very lucky not to seriously hurt herself. I went out and spent the bigger money on a Trek.
Been a while since I bought a bike. Mine ran $400 for a Trek hybrid (no, not like a Prius) . Treks are great. The real bike guys can fill you in on others. When I was looking other names were Cannondale and Specialzed. Mongoose was a brand of good bike but now I see them at Wal MArt which tells me something.
By a solid 58 percent to 42 percent margin, county voters approved Hyperion's request to rezone 3,292 acres of farm land for a new classification, Energy Center Planned Development.
"What happened tonight, we were not supposed to be able to do," Phillips told a cheering audience. "Development projects like this are supposed to be outright rejected by residents and neighbors. But this project is a testament to our balancing the needs for growth and for protecting the environment."
At stake was billions of dollars in capital investment and thousands of high-paying jobs. From the beginning, Hyperion executives said they would abandon its Union County site, just north of Elk Point, if a majority of voters failed to give their blessing to the rezoning.
While conceding defeat, opponents vowed to keep fighting the controversial project on every imaginable front, pressing on with a lawsuit it filed against the county over the zoning procedures and opposing Hyperion as it applies for a bevy of state and federal permits.
Of course environmentalist do not believe in Democracy so they will try to block any kind of progress. It sounds like SD wants to refine that oil that will be coming from ND soon. I say bully for them.... Good Going Fred...
The Cutlass Supreme fell off fast for 1982 though, dropping to around 260K units. Still, it held on well enough to still be the #4 selling car in 1984 and #9 in 1985. In 1984, it was probably #6 overall, once you factor in the F-series and Chevy C/K. But by 1985 the Caravan/Voyager were starting to take off, so one of those models, or possible both, could have outsold it.
I think the Impala/Caprice was #1 in 1977-79. At some point, 1971 I think it was, Chevy just started grouping all their big cars together for sales, calling them "Chevrolet". But the total included the Biscayne, Bel Air, Impala, and Caprice.
The Cutlass Supreme tended to get top honors for most popular individual model, as the hardtop coupe was wildly popular. However, the sedans and wagons didn't sustain the momentum built up by the coupe. In contrast, something like an Impala Sport Coupe may not have been as popular as a Cutlass Supreme coupe, but the sedan and wagon versions of the big cars tended to sell well, too. Plus, the big cars had both hardtop and pillared sedan, both of which were popular. With midsized cars, even though GM did offer hardtop sedans for awhile, they just never sold well.
I think the Cutlass overall did outsell the big Chevies in 1976, and possibly 1975 as well. But the downsized Caprice/Impala were wildly popular, selling close to 700K units overall that year. Surprisingly though, the Cutlass still sold well that year, and I think managed around 600K. Alas, when GM started downsizing its intermediates, it didn't have quite the success it had with the big cars. They were still popular for the most part, but sales mainly stood pat or dropped slightly. In contrast, when GM downsized its big cars, sales simply exploded. The biggest losers in GM's midsized lineup were the "Aeroback" Century/Cutlass sedan models, and the LeMans. When the Buick/Olds sedans went notchback for 1980, sales took off. The LeMans, though, fell victim to the first oil embargo, and just never recovered like its siblings did...even with downsizing.
The governor has been mentioned as VP material for Obama. The governor killed two big projects that would have meant lots of jobs for Kansas citizens. They are welcome to bring the refinery here to W. Ohio close to the ethanol boondoggles. The GM Moraine plant will close in 2010 and with all the lost Delphi jobs and supplier jobs for the GM plant, I'll help lobby for siting the refinery here!!! We have pipelines in the area already.
It's odd that refinery usage has dropped this year to 82% rather than 93% and up? Less gas being used. Less demand should mean lower prices... Oil dropped $$$$ yesterday, Marathon/Speedway should drop 20 cents at least. They have gone down 3 cents in last couple of days. Exxon Mobile had already kept their prices at $3.85 and dropped to $3.81. Speedway had raised their price back up to $3.999
Isn't it odd how the gasoline prices are manipulated in some areas of the country? Remember the toilet paper shortages? Sugar shortages?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Been a while since I bought a bike. Mine ran $400 for a Trek hybrid (no, not like a Prius) . Treks are great. The real bike guys can fill you in on others. When I was looking other names were Cannondale and Specialzed. Mongoose was a brand of good bike but now I see them at Wal MArt which tells me something.
I second this - definitely visit a real bike shop; big box stores are not the place for quality, for getting the right fit/size, for good advice etc etc. I'm a big Trek fan - they've got a wide range of products, at various price points. I'm not up on the current model numbers, however I ride a 2200 and a 5200 - both are roadies. One of the kids beats the heck out of a Trek hybrid, so they are durable. Any other bike that I really like is way too expensive to have civilized conversation about
By motorcycle, that might be true. I have not looked at the stats.
But by bicycle it is certainly NOT true - at least not in EVERY state 100% of the time. Not by the valid measurements which the PROFESSIONALS who are in the business of keeping these kind of stats.
Is it your profession, Gary? It's not mine either. But unlike you, I tend to TRUST the agencies which track these stats and tell us what is safe and what is not safe. I don't try to let perceived common sense override valid data.
And in the USA, in 2006, it was safer to ride a bike than take a car, per million of vehicle miles driven, in 24 of the states in our fine union.
And if more of those bike riders wore helmets religiously, it would probably be a slam dunk in all the states.
No it is not, so have it your way Toyota...... :sick:
I guess I'm too dense to get that - maybe a clue?
More children drown every year than get shot. Therefore, water is dangerous, and guns are safe.
If your kid wants to go swimming, you should say no. Instead, hand him a loaded gun to play with. Statistically, he'll be safer.
.
http://blogforbusiness.com/archives/133
Meaning you can have your statistics say what you want them to say.
You know you spent too much on a bike when you are embarrassed to tell anyone what it costs. LOL. I walked into a shop once, and some enterprising young man tried to sell me a $1300 set of WHEELS! Yes wheels, not an entire bike. I told him they better be able to pedal, cook, and clean before they went home with me.
I remember first finding out that my brother's first four figure bike had become his backup. Oy!
Apparently Mongoose is a name used among several bike brands and isn't a reliable indicator of quality. Most of the "name" boutique bikes have been purchased by big oil ... er, big conglomerates anyway. My neighbor just got a decent Raleigh for $600 for his 2 mile commute, and the bike shop owner flat out told him it was the same bike as a ... Klein, iirc. Or maybe a Trek. Same company owns Cannondale too I think.
My van's rear brake cratered last weekend and it was at the garage all day yesterday. I picked up it this morning and got dropped off 15 minutes before they opened so I took about a 10 block walk in the neighborhood behind the garage. Saw two cars idling with no one in them. And it's not like it's winter and icy here, nor is it hot yet.
Yesterday a neighbor got a washer/dryer delivered and installed from Lowes. I happened to notice them pull up and then realized 45 minutes later that they were still there - and the truck engine was idling the whole time.
You may as well bump gas prices up to $10 a gallon - people don't have a clue about how to conserve it, and they are happy to pay any price.
http://www.salon.com/tech/htww/2008/06/04/india_oil_price/index.html
You know why that is the pertinent stat? Because whether or not a bike rider rides 25 miles a month or a hundred, it's going to be a CAR which kills him/her.
But, how many car/bike collisions are partly or mostly the responsibility of inconsiderate and stupid bike riders. I see plenty of bike riders on the roads on weekends from Spring to Fall in our rural area. Many apparently bring their bikes on car carriers or SUVs and park in a small town nearby and then head for the back roads and sometimes the numbered highways.
Just last Sunday at noon, while travelling in our car on a 55 MPH US numbered highway that has plenty of curves, dips and crests and almost all double-yellow, we encountererd an idiot woman bike rider riding at the edge of the pavement. We and vehicles in front and behind us slowed to perhaps 15-20 MPH to gingerly hug the double-yellow line and safely get past this rider.
It is not uncommon to encounter packs of bicyclists, some riding 2, 3 or 4 abreast and using up all of the roadway on county backroads marked for 55 MPH. Some seem indignant that a motorist expects them to form a single file and ride at the edge of the road.
Bicyclists could do everyone a favor and ride on the side streets in their own neighborhoods in the cities or suburbs that they live in without wasting gasoline to drive out to rural areas.
I see too many irresponsible "adult" bike riders to trust their moves. I always slow way down upon encounter and give a very wide berth.
Apparently, there is a perfectly good reason for that data to be pertinent in it's existing form.
RVing as an alternative to buying a home? that might save you some money, but it's a poor investment in the future.
RV sales are in a world of pain right now. Not many people are willing to fund the bill at the pump to travel with 30 something feet of home on wheels. People are down sizing now - homes, cars, travel trailers.....
I sold my tiny pop up tent trailer recently and had so many responses within the first hour of posting it was crazy. Someone trying to unload a giant RV today is looking at some big time depreciation from just a year ago.
I just know that in my personal commute, on Segway and on bike, the only time I have had near misses were because the driver of a car has not seen me. And I ride on the sidewalk - my near misses are all at intersections.
( That's just my personal experience - all others will vary accordingly.)
That brings up an interesting point. If a car can be ticketing for going too slow and holding up traffic. Does that apply to people on bicycles?
I do understand folks coming out to our area to ride their bikes on the weekend. It is very nice and quiet with lots of up and down hills to test your stamina. I always slow down just in case they hit a sandy spot on the road and go down. I don't want to be the one that runs over them. That was always my fear riding my bike along Alii Dr. in Kona. It was about 5 miles from my condo to Kailua. All very narrow without any bike lanes.
We're not saying the stats are wrong; we're saying you're misinterpreting what the stats mean. They do not prove what you are taking them to mean.
What you are trying to glean (whether a car or a bike ridden is safer) would have to be: (the total # of miles of cars in a year / # of fatalities) compared to (the total # of miles of bikes / # of fatalities and injuries).
Since there are more cars than bikes, and each car in this country is driven about 100X the distance of a bike, you will find cars are much safer than bikes.
And if you did a study you'd find that bikes are pretty safe when ridden away the street, a little more dangerous when ridden on the sidewalk, and very dangerous when ridden on the street with cars and no barrier.
And bike helmets are designed to withstand the impact from falling from the bike and hitting the ground. They are nowhere near as strong as race car helmets or motorcycle helmets. A bike helmet is not made to withstand a person being knocked from a bike and propelled to 50mph, or made to withstand a vehicle being driven at 30mph or more, running directly over it.
If you're going to ride a bicycle get as far away from traffic as you can. You may have not had an accident so far, but the further you are from the fire the safer you are.
$30 gas is 7.5 gallons or 140-185 miles of driving. That's 15-20 hrs if on a bike. That's a lot of exposure. That's also 10-15 hrs of 'not home' time per week. Nobody needs that much fitness.
Biking on a separate bike trail for exercise is much safer and I am all for it. My town has so many trails I haven't even found them all yet.
I feel less safe when I drive my 3300 lb Mustang than when I drive my Sonoma or Silverado. A bike on a 20 foot wide 40-55 mph road with no shoulder and I don't know if the approaching from behind car has got decent wipers? while a car sits home in the driveway? And for what? china and india will add 100 million new motorists within a decade.