Are gas prices fueling your pain?

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Comments

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,045
    Actually, if gasoline ended up being, say, $3.15 per gallon at the start of 2008 and crept up 5% per year (which really isn't THAT much...I think inflation averages about 3-4%?), by 2016 we'd be looking at $5.17 per gallon, and pushing $6 by 2020.

    By 2030, we'd be up to $10 per gallon at that rate.
  • pat84pat84 Member Posts: 817
    I saw a study that said that a pick up truck is more aerodynamic with the gate up.
    I see about half of them with the gate down. Now I know why.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    I agree that $6 gas is probably very extreme and unrealistic. I do think that there will be some increase in gas prices over what they would have been as a result of this bill. Whether its a nickel or a dollar I couldn't say.

    The issue is probably moot. I just saw a headline that said the GOP blocked these tax hikes on the oil industry.
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    Ever see a car T-Boned by a red light runner? Yellow means stop.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Yellow means stop.

    Who taught you to drive? Yellow means make a decision to stop or proceed.

    I've actually heard people say that yellow means slow down. That's the absolute stupidest thing you could do. When you see the yellow if you decide that you are close enough to the intersection to make it through then please, do not slow down.
  • pat84pat84 Member Posts: 817
    By 2030, we'd be up to $10 per gallon at that rate
    The inexpensive to drill Middle Eastern oil may be mostly used up by 2030. So $10 a gallon may be on the low side as more expensive to produce fuel is needed.
    I am concerned what those who are 10 years old now, and what will they do when they are 33 in 2030 and gas is at least $10 a gallon.
    I'll be 85 in 2030. I'll tell them I remember when gas was #.35 a gallon, gas stations pumped your gas, checked your oil, washed your windshield, gave you green stamps and steak knives. Cars weighed at least 2 tons and no one ever worried about miles per gallon.
    If they give me any lip, I'll hit them with my cane.
  • pat84pat84 Member Posts: 817
    One of the problems with the red light cameras is they are placed where the yellow is on for less than average amount of time.
    One effect of the cameras is people are stopping on the yellow. There are now more rear end accidents as a result.
    It is NOT a safety issue, It is a revenue issue.
    Unnecessary stopping wastes fuel.
    BTW I never said I run red lights.
    Proximity to the intersection, and weather conditions, may determine what action is appropriate a yellow light.
    I do object to deliberate attempts to maximize the revenue by using less than fair tactics.
    I see the county cops put on their lights and run the cameras. When they are past them, they turn off their lights. I see this in Charles County, MD.
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    While you are "making your decision to stop or proceed" the light is turning red. Btw, I have more varied driving experience than do you.
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    Who gets the ticket if there is a rear end collision? That's where the fault lies.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,045
    but I've seen articles in various newspapers and websites and such that say that in intersections with red light cameras, T-bone accidents tend to drop, but rear-end collisions tend to shoot up, and in many cases, the net effect is actually MORE collisions.

    Now usually, a rear-ender is less destructive than a T-bone, but if you slam on your brakes to stop, while the 18 wheeler behind you is gunning it to get through, there's little solace in that.

    Another ugly truth is that red light cameras are coordinated to catch cars and light trucks...relatively short vehicles. A tractor trailer can run a red light, set off the camera, but none of the pictures will show the license plate. Now maybe they could get a number off the trailer or something.

    And Pat, I've heard that too, about pickups being more aerodynamic with the tailgate up. I haven't tried to calculate the effects on fuel mileage or anything, but I guess it would make sense. For one thing, the air running across the back of the bed, I'd think, would tend to want to lift the truck up. Basically the same principle as an airplane wing, or why tornadoes and hurricanes tend to do more damage to flat-roofed buildings than buildings with a steeper pitch. You'd think the pitched roof would be more of a target, but those flat roofs tend to get sucked right off.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,133
  • pat84pat84 Member Posts: 817
    I haven't been involved in any accidents personally, so I do not know if any tickets are issued.
    My best guess is that the person rear ending the other vehicle is at fault, as is this generally the case.
    The cops may issue both drivers tickets to maximize revenue.
    BTW how do you know anyone else's experience ?
    You are wrong about "stopping" on a yellow.
    An experienced driver would not need to stop and think about what to do as the light turned red.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Btw, I have more varied driving experience than do you.

    Congratulations. With my limited experience I have somehow been able to accurately decide, based upon my proximity to the intersection, whether I should proceed or I should stop. Again, I'm not questioning that my experience is inferior to yours, but for me this is an automatic/reflexive decision, not much time involved. What I'm hearing is that your automatic response when you see yellow is to hit the brakes. Is that really what you're saying?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Why would the price of gas go up any more than the tax per gallon?

    Let's face it...we are hostages to the oil industry, totallly.
  • msindallasmsindallas Member Posts: 190
    Off topic again, should be posting this to Inconsiderate Drivers thread, but here goes...

    Yellow does not mean stop

    I've had this experience a few times - following a lane of traffic through an intersection - light turns yellow - I know I can go through, and so can 2 or 3 more cars behind me. Suddenly someone 1 or 2 cars ahead of me decides s/he cannot make it and slams on the brake - causing everybody else behind him/her having to test their brakes as well. So far I have been lucky not to be part of a pile up, and I consider that pure luck as opposed to my driving skills.

    I am not exactly a tailgater, but on a multilane and busy city street going 45-50mph, you cannot maintain that 3 or 4 car distance - somebody will cut in in front of you.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,045
    that I've been in situations where I've run red lights. And I'm not saying that's something to be proud of or get cocky about. It's just been times where I thought I had more time to get through the yellow than I really did. Now, my definition of running a red light is where it turns red BEFORE you enter the intersection. Not after. So you could run through the intersection while the light is yellow, but have it turn red before you've completely cleared the intersection.

    It's VERY rare that I've done this, but is has happened. However, on the times that it did happen, I still got through before any opposing traffic could enter the intersection and cross my path, even if they floored it from a standstill.

    The real dangers with redlight runners are those who run through the intersection a second, several seconds, or even more, after the light has changed.

    Also, because green means "Proceed with CAUTION", and not "Proceed through blindly", it's not automatically a given that a red light runner is going to be found at fault.

    Years ago, one of my relatives got creamed in his mother's Duster by a red light runner. He thought he had it made, his ship was gonna come in, and all this other stuff. He made big plans that he was going to buy his mother's house, and they'd live in the lap of luxury. However, there was just one little problem. My cousin did something called, in slang terms at least, "running the green". Meaning that the split second the light turned green, my cousin opened up that Duster's 318 cubes, flew out into the intersection, and sent that Duster to that great junkyard in the sky in record time.

    In fact, I'm not even sure who hit whom. It's possible that my cousin pulled out on the green and whacked a car that had run the red light and hadn't cleared the intersection. Anyway, regardless of who actually did the hitting, my cousin was found partially at fault, got a settlement that paid him $200 per week (which might not have been that bad back around 1979 or so), but I forget for how long. He's declared bankruptcy twice, and lives in his mother's basement.

    People like him will be hurt big-time if gas goes to $4.00 per gallon.
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    Ah.. I see.......you have limited experience. I check my rear view as I approach intersections for tailgaters,I'm aware of the traffic flow,and I don't slam on my brakes. Hey,I've been caught by a yellow light like everyone else. I'm just saying,if you want to avoid running a red light, just think "yellow means stop."
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Why would the price of gas go up any more than the tax per gallon?

    I don't think it would. In fact it would probably go up less. The oil producers would eat some of this tax and the consumers the rest.

    I'm a little dissapointed that this didn't get approved in the Senate. As anyone who's read my posts knows, I'm an advocate of higher fuel taxes but realize that imposing them is political suicide. Taxing the oil companies is an indirect way to accomplish the same thing except in this case the public would have been onboard.

    Instead it looks like Congress is going to push for higher fuel standards, which essentially becomes a tax on the auto manufacturers. So what does that mean? Well like the tax on oil companies would have gotten passed on to the oil consumers a tax on the auto manufacturers will get passed on to the auto purchasers. If our goal is to reduce oil consumption it seems like we are trying to address the problem by getting further and further away from it. I guess it's all politics.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    It sounds to me that when you see yellow a decision making process starts. So where's the disagreement?
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    If you're in the intersection when the light turns red then you are not violating the law.

    Where I live the cross traffic does not get a green signal until 2 seconds after the through traffic signal had turned red. For an accident to occur would require a very severe violation. With that said I've been driving a lot in Jacksonville, FL lately. That may be the red light running capital of the country. I think that traffic signals might actually make the roadways more dangerous. For instance, if I'm at a stop sign I will look to see if it's safe to cross the road. If I have a green light I probably won't look. In Jacksonville this isn't a wise thing to do.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    The limit is around 60,000 units per year,

    The limit is 60K units period. The quarter after the 60,000th vehicle is sold the tax credit is reduced to 50% of the original tax credit for 6 months then its reduced to 25% for the next 6 months then it disappears forever.

    IIRC as of October this year Toyota buyers will be out of the tax credit for good (unless they change the law).

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    How true, since I don't run red lights those "Big Brother" cameras never see me. :P

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Yellow means make a decision to stop or proceed.

    Yellow means clear the intersection. Legally if you can safely and reasonably stop your car before the intersection when the light turns yellow you must stop.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    One effect of the cameras is people are stopping on the yellow. There are now more rear end accidents as a result.

    Do you have any stats to back that up. They have installed those things at many of the busy intersections in my town and there hasn't been any increase in rear end accidents and I have never witnessed anyone trying to stop short at those intersections.

    I see the county cops put on their lights and run the cameras.

    Many times when responding to a call police do not use their lights approaching the site of the situation for a variety of reasons. In cases like that they will turn their lights on to make it safely through places like intersections then when cleared they will turn them off.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Now, my definition of running a red light is where it turns red BEFORE you enter the intersection.

    Now the legal definition is that if you can stop before the intersection reasonably and safely at the time the light turns yellow you have run the red light. It doesn't matter what the color of the light was when you entered the intersection or if it changed when you were in the intersection.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I want to be spied on, so I can come to know the Big Brother I never had :cry:
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Yellow means clear the intersection. Legally if you can safely and reasonably stop your car before the intersection when the light turns yellow you must stop.

    I somewhat agree, the issue becomes what constitutes a reasonable stop. If I'm travelling 50 mph and the light turns yellow when I'm 150 feet from the intersection I guarantee that I can stop. Should I reasonably be expected to? Who gets to decide this? That's too subjective for me. If you're in the intersection before the light turns red then you're in compliance with the law. It's that simple. Your only decision is whether or not you will be in the intersection before the light turns red. If this is too much of a brain buster for you then you are probably best off slamming on the brakes.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    If you're in the intersection before the light turns red then you're in compliance with the law.

    Not always, if you can stop before the intersection you must. Of course this does not mean slamming on your brakes.

    On a side note there was this one intersection that I used to go through that had a 1/50th of a second yellow. I am serious it was basically as long as a cameras flash, blink your eyes and you missed it. In that case entering the intersection on the red was perfectly legal as long as you couldn't safely stop when the yellow flashed.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Now the legal definition is that if you can stop before the intersection reasonably and safely at the time the light turns yellow you have run the red light. It doesn't matter what the color of the light was when you entered the intersection or if it changed when you were in the intersection.

    Where do you get this stuff from? I've read you're posts for several years now. You used to have at least a shred of credibility.

    Here's from the DOT position. Maybe they need to consult with you.

    http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/intersections/rlr_report/chap2.htm

    RED-LIGHT RUNNING DEFINED

    Simply stated, red-light running is entering, and proceeding through, a signalized intersection after the signal has turned red.
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    Thanks for the backup!
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    If you are traveling 50 when the changes you are probably also ........speeding. :)
  • 1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    "The $6 a gallon "message" is alarmist propaganda. A $6 a gallon fee, after all, would plunge America into a massive, horrifying depression of unparaled proportions."

    Not picking on you, but that's what everyone said about $3 gasoline just a few years ago. Rising gas prices would cripple our economy.

    Remember late 2001/early 2002, after the WTC attack, gas prices shot up to $1.80/gal.? Everyone expected it, so few people complained. The price retreated slightly, but then the rollercoaster ride began.

    2003 hit $2.30, 2004 hit $2.70, 2005 hit $3.00 (Hurricane Katrina), 2006 again $3.00, now 2007 $3.50. The price of gas doubled since 2002, and tripled since 2000, so it's no stretch to say it could double again in 10 years, even without Congressional meddling.

    The Heritage Foundation might be too right-wing for some, but they're right about this. Gas prices no longer fluctuate on supply and demand. They move on perception, and they rise to whatever level the market will bear. This is from the Christian Science Monitor:

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0515/p09s02-coop.html

    The U.S. economy has absorbed $3 gas, so prices WILL go higher. Count on it.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    f you are traveling 50 when the changes you are probably also ........speeding.

    Once again, I'm inclined to concede to your vast experience but where I live there are plenty of traffic signals on roads with 50+ mph speed limits.
  • 1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    Wow, it's like magic! A few hours after I complain that Congress hasn't raised the CAFE standards in 20 years, news breaks:

    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f13fa26/0

    Hilarious that the major opposition to the CAFE increase comes from a Democrat! Oh yeah, he's from Michigan.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Where do you get this stuff from?

    Courts and our state department of transportation. According to the Illinois vehicle code a steady yellow light is a warning that the related green movement is being terminated or that a red indication will be exhibited immediately thereafter (625 ILCS 5/Ch. 11 Art. III sec 306). Since a red indication will be exhibited in an indeterminant time (not all lights have the same duration of a yellow light) one must be aware that it will change at any time. Hence when the light turns yellow one must stop if one can. On the other hand an unreasonably short yellow may not allow traffic to safely stop before the light changes to red (see my example in a previous post) there fore one cannot be held to having to stop if enough time is not afforded.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Well that's a state interpretation. And there is the term "unreasonable" which suddenly makes it a judgement call. That's the only thing that I've contended all along. When you see a yellow light it is time to make a judgement/decision. This judgement will be either to proceed or stop, no other choices. So if the decision is whether or not you can reasonably stop then I can agree with that but it is still a judgement. To say that "yellow means stop" is mindless. If you want to say that "yellow means stop if reasonable" then I'll go along with that. But then, of course, there will be disagreement on what is reasonable. If a car can stop from 60 mph in 130 ft is that a reasonable distance? Again we're getting into judgement calls. It's far simpler and objective to have a law that states entering an intersection on a red is a violation.

    Basically we're splitting hairs here. Whether or not someone complies with my standard or yours probably equates to a second. How many of these intersection accidents are the result of someone just barely running a red light? My guess is that it is very few.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    To say that "yellow means stop" is mindless.

    I never said yellow means stop, I said that yellow means clear the intersection. Thats what it basically means.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Massachusetts says "As steady yellow light means the traffic signal is changing from green to red. You must stop if it is
    safe to do so. If you are already stopped at an intersection or a stop line, you may not proceed."

    Click on Chapter 4 of this link and scroll down to page 110 if you want to read the section.

    All the Idaho code says is "A driver facing a steady circular yellow or yellow arrow signal is being warned that the related green movement is ending, or that a red indication will be shown immediately after it." I knew Mass. would be more "thorough." :shades:
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    50 mph at a red light intersection! No wonder your perceptions are a little,well,skewed. :)
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    I was shocked at a piece on the local news when they stated that there were over 200 tickets issued in one day. I had no idea that that many people ran red lights so I don't mind the cameras.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,045
    50 mph at a red light intersection! No wonder your perceptions are a little,well,skewed

    One area I know of in Maryland that has red light cameras, which is incredibly dangerous, is US Route 301, which is a major trucking route, and most of its stretches have a 55 mph speed limit. Which means that drivers are often doing 65,70 and more.

    That's not exactly a winning combination, factoring in tractor trailers that won't get a camera ticket because of timing issues (and rest assured that the drivers are aware of this), with automobile drivers that will suddenly stop quickly for fear of getting a ticket, and that's just disaster waiting to happen.
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    where did the topic go?????...........................
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    50 mph at a red light intersection! No wonder your perceptions are a little,well,skewed

    I don't get it?
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    One effect of the cameras is people are stopping on the yellow. There are now more rear end accidents as a result.

    Do you have any stats to back that up


    Do a Google search on "red light cameras accident rates". You'll find plenty of articles on how rear end accidents have increased. I couldn't find any that said they decreased. Oh yeah, these articles also state that red light cameras have been cash cows, which was their purpose all along.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    But are there any stats?

    As I said they have installed them here with no, none, zero, null, nada increase in accidents. So I am suspicious of that claim.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    About 20 years ago a guy ran a red light in front of my car. I manage to stop my car about 2 feet from hitting him and what do I see? His three year-old kid looking out the passenger window at me!
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    $3.00 gas has done plenty of damage to our economy. People are staying home. I don't want my son to work a part time job anymore because it doesn't net any money. We live 10 miles from the nearest town and don't own any 4 cyl cars. They make you come in to get your schedule, except the schedule hander outer is a dummy and gives it to you wrong so you show up on a non work day. Then payday is a non work day. Then it's slow so they send you home after .75 hours at $6.25 an hour. Why is it slow? Maybe because the potential lunch customer is broke after going to the gas station and isn't coming? High gas prices are a killer tax gouge of everyone making less than $25k a year. All the people with boats near me have them for sale. The campers and motorhomes are for sale too. How many people are in jail for setting fire to their SUV's trying to dump them through their insurance claims? Yesterday the price jumped from 2.78 to 2.94 and the only station still at 2.78 had 20 cars waiting in line.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,045
    will soon rejoice because gasoline demand is about to skyrocket. Why? Because I've got my thirsty '76 LeMans loaded up and ready to go on my trip to Carlisle!

    My advice? Load up on RDS.B and XOM. :P
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Likewise my 1989 Cadillac Brougham with its huge 25 gallon tank of Sunoco Ultra. I plan on spending at least $60 in fuel on this trip alone.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The U.S. economy absorbed higher fuel prices gradually over a long period of time with the assistance of mild inflation, small increase in wages and lots and lots of easy credit. ("just charge it").

    Now being totally in debt, Americans couldn't possibly absorb a sudden, 100% increase in fuel prices. They would simply stop spending money elsewhere, sucking HUGE sums out of the economy.

    You know, when an oil company-funded organization that espouses supply-side economics tells you not to support alternative energy, I mean, c'mon, you gotta be skeptical at least. You owe it to yourself to get out the ol' magnifying glass at least. Besides all that, we aren't talking about increasing tax *rates* but rather just a tax increase, so even supply-siders shouldn't get all that upset. There's obviously more agenda behind the alarmist rhetoric here.
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