Are gas prices fueling your pain?

chuckhoy

I am not entirely sure. All the ones that I know of, personally, have either been pretty new (2 years or so) or very old (15 year old Metro) so it was not an issue either way. I would contact the dreaded DOT in your state. They will either know or point you in the right direction. Maybe the Attourney General's Office. Those state government folks are usually pretty helpful. Well, at least around here...

tpe

If they are willing to offer a money losing lease deal then you could probably negotiate a very good cash price, essentially the same as getting a rebate. When your financing is pre-arranged through a third party as far as the dealership is concerned this is a cash deal.

bumpy

If I wanted to find something cheap, but still relatively economical, how hard would it be nowadays to keep something like an '83-86 Camry or '82-85 Accord running?

Not hard, but by this point most of them will be pretty well ragged out and a bit of an adventure to find parts for. You're better off looking for a nice early-90s Camry or Accord. The fuel economy will still be good and the maintenance will be easier.

Mr_Shiftright

Bumpy's right. Just about any 80s car of any make is worn out by now, and if it's dodged the bullet, it's only a matter of time for catastrophic failure on 20+ year components.

Play the odds on a used economy car: ten years and under 100K miles is your best bet IMO.

Visiting Host

RE: RAV4-EV -- some members of the "club" have worked out the MPG equivalent of their RAV4-EV to be about 125 mpg. It's the best EV I've driven yet, but I'm sure there are better ones coming along.

stever

I think 8/80,000 is the longest federal emissions warranty in the US. Some states require a longer warranty, and it varies by year of manufacturer too. The length of the warranty depends on the part too.

link

nippononly

sold as AT-PZEV in California have a 10 year, 150K emissions performance warranty from the manufacturer. It would cover a bad cat as long as it was shown that tune-up related parts like spark plugs and air filters had been replaced at proper intervals.

stever

My link was flaky so I've edited that post to link to the html version of the file - and that says 15 years/150k for a CA PZEV.

That's a Vermont site, and you may get warranty coverage there even if you don't have proof of maintenance. I don't know how else you'd be able to show you didn't abuse the car though.

metro123

I tried that two years ago and it didn't work out for me. I picked up a 93 Civic with 140K miles for $1800. I wanted a second car for my commute to work and to zip around town. I was driving an Expedition and the $60 to $70 a week in gas was hurting big time. I ended up putting about $1600 back into the Civic. I replaced the radiator, cv joints, boots and shafts. The distributor coil went and left me stranded in the rain. I had to do the brakes, a new battery and a power window motor as well. When the A/C blower motor went I decided to cut my losses. I sold the car to a friend who still has it today with about 170K on it, but he has had to have several things fixed as well and it has left him stranded twice!

I'm not much of a mechanic so I could have saved money had I been able to do some of the work myself. I don't think I got a lemon, I just got a worn out car. The engine and five speed were perfect. But some of the little things were quite costly. With all the money this car ended up costing me, I still really liked it. It just didn't work out financially. I might have been able to pick up a slightly used economy car for under $200 per month and made out better than I did. Oh well !

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, too bad. That's why I tend to advice most people to cut and run at about 80K--100K. That's when cars starting getting expensive---that's about when the maintenance cost curve starts to rise. Of course if you've had great luck with your car since new, and you've taken good care of it, perhaps 80K -- 100K seems a bit premature, but buying high mileage cars from strangers rarely pans out unless you are the "drive it til it drops" kind of person where you can ignore a lot of deficiencies as long as the car keeps rolling.

After 150K, I think any car should be "free"---literally, it really isn't worth anything but parts.

blufz1

Look at as a relatively cheap life lesson. That's why I buy exactly which new Honda I like and try to drive it till it drops. Just my .02.

Mr_Shiftright

I'm curious about something:

Is there ANYBODY here who would SERIOUSLY consider buying a gas-sipping economy carif gas hit $4.01 a gallon for regular, very quickly, like within a few weeks?

british_rover

I might but then I can buy cars stupid cheap being in the biz. It wouldn't be for me though it would be for my wife to replace her Jeep at least for the summer. I wouldn't want her trying to drive it in our area of the state in the winter.

If gas goes up some more I will just drive my trades home more often. That is what I did last night since someone traded in a car with over 3/4s of a tank of gas. heheeheh

Free gas for me.

gagrice

Not me. I will not buy a new vehicle unless it is diesel. If I don't get top dollar for my 05 GMC hybrid by next year, I will buy the extended warranty and keep it.

blufz1

The math doesn't work for most people to just knee jerk buy an economy car to save gas.

snakeweasel

Not me, as my car is paid off and running great I have no reason to by a more fuel efficient car as the gas savings will never overcome the extra costs in buying a new car.

Of course I would consider it when it comes time to replace my current ride.

tpe

Is there ANYBODY here who would SERIOUSLY consider buying a gas-sipping economy carif gas hit $4.01 a gallon for regular

That's a good question. I think another good question would have been, "at what point do gas prices have to reach for you to consider buying a different vehicle"? My guess is that, even though $3 gas impacts a lot of people's finances, it would take close to $5 gas for people to actually adjust their lifestyles.

Mr_Shiftright

True, but I was trying to come up with a number that was real enough to be scary. $5 sounds too far-fetched right now, doesn't it?

tpe

$5 sounds too far-fetched right now, doesn't it?

Maybe a little far-fetched. The difference between what the oil producers can produce and the oil consumers can consume has narrowed dramatically. It's crazy to predict what prices will be at any particular time. Common sense says that prices will be very volatile.

blufz1

Not farfetched. Just a little high for right now. Look at the Mideast........$5 is not far fetched. But $3 has made buyers think. My next car will be a diesel. Just my .02.

msindallas

1887: Is there ANYBODY here who would SERIOUSLY consider buying a gas-sipping economy carif gas hit $4.01 a gallon for regular, very quickly, like within a few weeks?

Short answer: I would consider it if gas hits $8/gal in the coming weeks.

Cars A: 15 mpg, B: 20 mpg, C: 30 mpg, 40mpg, E: 50mpg
Drive: 1200mi/month.
Gas $/mo:
A: 80gal@$3 = $240, 80gal@$4 = $320, 80gal@$5 = $400, 80gal@$6 = $480
B: 60gal@$3 = $180, 60gal@$4 = $240, 60gal@$5 = $300, 60gal@$6 = $360
C: 40gal@$3 = $120, 40gal@$4 = $160, 40gal@$5 = $200, 40gal@$6 = $240
30gal@$3 = $ 90, 30gal@$4 = $120, 30gal@$5 = $150, 30gal@$6 = $180
E: 24gal@$3 = $ 72, 24gal@$4 = $ 96, 24gal@$5 = $120, 24gal@$6 = $144

I drive car C now. I can afford B, and I'll sacrifice a little bit of comfort to get to D. Will not buy A out of conscience, and will not spend a fortune buying E.
At $3/gal currently, my options are B, C and D. Currently thinking about buying one.
At $4/gal or even at $5/gal, the choices will be C and D.
At $6/gal or more, I will consider E, and if high price, still get a D.

My rationale is to get the biggest, safest vehicle I can get for gas cost under $200/mo and insurance under $100/mo. If vehicle depreciation is about $17-20K over 48 mo, that makes my driving cost around $700/mo. Desirable cars on my list:

A: MDX, XC90
B: Sienna, Enclave
C: Camry, Altima
Civic, Camry hybrid
E: Prius, Civic Hybrid

I might need a 6+ seater, and end up with a Sienna or an Enclave soon. What are your plans? - MS.

lemko

Some people have the attitude that a car payment is a constant - something that is always with you like the rent payment or gas bill. Me, I like having a few years without that expense. I'm often tempted by the new car's siren song, but I manage to snap out of it. Lately, I almost had a close call with a Cadillac DTS Performance.

andre1969

True, but I was trying to come up with a number that was real enough to be scary. $5 sounds too far-fetched right now, doesn't it?

It's kind of funny, but as those dollar figures creep higher and sound ever more ominous, each additional dollar becomes less significant. For example, back when gas shot up from around $1.00 per gallon to $2.00 per gallon, everybody saw their fuel bill double. Going from $2.00 per gallon to $3.00 per gallon, while still a hard hit, it actually represented a 50% increase. The jump from $3 to $4 per gallon will "only" be a 33% increase.

So while it's still painful, maybe it helps a little, pscychologically, to look at it that way. :sick:

I don't think $4.01 per gallon would make me run out and buy an economy car, but it would make me start second-guessing some of my less-important trips.

Actually, here's a few minor ways I've cut back on fuel spending. Oddly, most of them involve beer.
1. I used to run up to a discount liquor store about 10 miles away. I'd buy the beer in bulk, saving more than enough to offset the cost of fuel. But then, their beer prices started going up, as did gasoline costs. On a trip like that, my truck *might* get 15 mpg. So cutting that 20 miles out saves about 1 1/3 gallons.

2. Local liquor store is about 2 miles away from my house, in the opposite direction from work. But my roommate passes it coming home from work, so sometimes I'll have him stop off and get it. Doesn't really make him use any more fuel, but it saves me 4 miles, which with my truck is probably about 1/3 of a gallon.

3. Bulking up on beer at the local liquor store. When I make the trip out (like if we run out of beer on a day my roommate's not working) sometimes I'll pick up two 30 packs instead of one, thereby saving a trip later on. However, buying the beer in bulk is of questionable savings, because there more there is around, the quicker it tends to get drunk up! :shades:

british_rover

Now that is funny.

jkinzel

I would not replace my 1993, 20mpg Explorer even if gas went to $5.00 a gallon, but I would make every attempt to change my driving habits. It has 190k miles and has more or less been trouble free (purchased new) so at this point I’m not too eager to let it go just to get a new car. However, when it does go, it’s going be replaced with a diesel if at all possible.

andre1969

my '85 Silverado about 20 minutes ago, and here's the stats. Last filled up on 6/4, went 184.6 miles on this tank, and it took 11.804 gallons to fill up. 89 octane, $3.159 per gallon. I think my odometer is just a little bit slow, too. Anyway, I figure that came out to about 15.64 mpg, so even if it's off by just 2.5%, that puts me up to about 16 mpg. Which is its EPA highway rating (old system...probably only 14-15 under the new system). Also, less than half of that was highway driving...probably more like 35-40%.

So, for something that I could probably get 10-12 mpg out of if I really put some effort into it, I'm pretty happy. I guess my hypermiling techniques are starting to pay off.

Here's one hypothetical question...I don't have the stock size tires on it right now. If I were to switch it from the 255/70/R15's that are currently on it, for some stock-sized 235/75/R15's, would that help mileage much? That's about an 8% narrower tread, and overall diameter is actually very close (720 revs per mile for the 255's, 721 for the 235's according to tirerack.com). I figure if nothing else, it would be a bit less friction, and might help with coasting a bit.

However, I only have about 6,000 or so miles on these tires (bought February of 2006) so at the rate I'm going, it'll be years before I wear them out!

My truck also has these chunky 15x8 rally wheels on it. Not that I'm about to invest the money in this, but would going to a narrower wheel, like a 15x7 or even 15x6 save enough weight to make much difference?

texases

I can't imagine those changes making more than a couple of tenths difference - put an extra psi or two in, get the same thing for free...

Mr_Shiftright

It'll steer a little easier/faster at any rate, at low speeds.

1stpik

The latest national poll showed that gas would have to hit $4.25/gallon before most people change their driving habits. For some that would be driving less or even carpooling to work. For others it would involve buying a more efficient car. Either way, nothing major.

The economy has absorbed $3 gas amazingly well. Plus, most consumers seem convinced that prices will drop after the "summer driving season," so they don't protest. And prices do drop every fall, just never as low as they were the previous fall, and always higher next spring.

So $3.25/gal. doesn't even scratch the surface regarding a change in automobiles. I think the $5 price that other posts suggested is the realistic straw that would break the car-camel's back. If people started paying $100 to fill up their Camrys and Caravans, then they'd do something real like buying hybrids and small diesels.

I think all of us Prius and Civic Hybrid owners expect to see $4 within a year, which was a major reason we shelled out the extra bucks for the efficiency now. And if the U.S. military goes into Iran, or another hurricane hits LA or TX, or a terrorist sneaks across our southern border and detonates a bomb in a major city, we'll see $5 real quick.

On the brighter side, if NONE of those events occur, I think gas prices will bounce between $2.50 and $3.50 for the next several years. I don't believe we'll ever see $1.50 again.

gagrice

In 1977 I did not think oil would ever go below $30 per barrel. It hit a low of $9 per barrel in 1998. The US economy still controls the price of oil in the world for now. I do not expect to see $1.50 gas. I think it can go back to $2 per gallon. It will fluctuate and that causes those on a tight budget heart burn.

iluvmysephia1

ghastly below $2.00/gal for 87 no-lead again. Just as sure as Kobe Bryant is whining right now, we will never, ever see ghastly dip below $2.00/gal.

I think they can wring enough profits out of us at $3.50/gal or higher for the time being. :sick:

gagrice

So far this year we have not peaked in CA as high as last year. There is still plenty of summer left. Last year the highest I paid was $3.35 in May. So far this year I was able to miss the peak and paid $3.31. Last fill yesterday was back down to $2.99. It is dropping earlier this year by 2 weeks. There should be another spike in July. San Diego is so varied in price you can find at least a 50 cent spread any time of the year.

snakeweasel

You're luck here in the Chicago area there are places still above $3.50/gallon. the highest I bought was around $3.65 and last time I checked it was $3.18.

Funny thing is diesel hasn't moved much in the last few months.

gagrice

I just spent the last hour watching WW2 airplanes fly over our house. I wonder if the price of Av Gas has caused any cut backs in air shows and other high fuel usage sports. I know NASCAR is bigger than ever. Those older prop and jet planes are fun to watch, even if they are burning 200+ gallons per hour. Not much more expensive than a round of golf at the Desert Inn LV.

I just do not see people with money giving up much to save on fuel. They would rather buy their way out of responsibility with a carbon tax. With our convoluted tax code they could probably use it as a write-off.

tpe

The big difference between now and 1998 is that the oil producers no longer have the capacity to produce a glut. They can barely meet current demand. Gas may very well go back down to $2/gallon and it might go up to $4/gallon and it might do both within the course of a year. The minimal buffer between supply and demand is going to result in some pretty wild fluctuations in the coming years. Yes this will result in heartburn for those on a tight budget. That's pretty much the case when the price of anything rises.

bumpy

Narrower wheels and tires won't make much of a difference (unless you switch to low-rolling-resistance tires), but inflating your existing rubber to the tire's maximum rated pressure will help. It will make your ride rougher, but an '85 Silverado is pretty much the antithesis of smoothness already.

bumpy

The oil producers can't produce a glut by increasing output, but reducing demand via a major recession will produce a glut just like the 'Asian flu' did a decade ago.

blufz1

Any new car purchases need to be "defensive." Get the car with the best mileage that fits your needs and defer purchase if you can to get a more efficient car.

nippononly

"Cars A: 15 mpg, B: 20 mpg, C: 30 mpg, 40mpg, E: 50mpg
Drive: 1200mi/month."

When gas prices failed early this year to go down even CLOSE to what they did last year at the same time, I decided to reevaluate my priorities and take a hard look at what I was using my "car B" for. I decided I could let it go, and traded it for a C/D (gets about 35 mpg). So far I have not had any automotive needs or wants that my new C/D could not fulfill. For the once or twice per year I may realistically need my old "B" (my truck) I will rent one for the cost of a month's gas savings. The other 11 months of the year I am saving more than $100/month, actually closer to $150/month with my driving habits, and I am happy with that.

It was not $4/gallon that made me switch, as we haven't gone higher than about $3.50 yet in my neck of the woods. It was the new volatility of gas prices that I am quite sure will be the nature of the beast for many years to come now.

I know the math does not pencil out to trade in a perfectly good car for a new gas-sipper, especially if the old one is paid off, but I am sure the majority of people from now on will be keeping the gas prices in mind when it comes to trade in the normal course of things. And I am pleasantly surprised to see the number of people posting in here that swear their next vehicle will be a diesel. I hope diesel takes off once the 50-state technology is here. Diesel is still running $0.40 below the cost of 87 unleaded in my area...

Mr_Shiftright

My only concern with diesels is that there is a misconception that they are "lower maintenance" or somehow more "durable" than a gasoline engine.

In reality, the maintenance is "different", not lower (some things cost less to maintain, some things more) and the durability relates perhaps to the lower engine block (which on a diesel has to be stronger than a gas engine) but not necessarily to everything attached to a diesel engine, or to the systems that support it (cooling, charging, fuel, or oiling).

I'd definitely consider a diesel, but only a modern one. The old diesel cars have a lot of drawbacks that are not easy for the average driver to overlook.

gagrice

I agree. It will take time to bring the dealerships up to speed on the diesel engined vehicles. I think they will be easier to maintain than the hybrids for the independents.

nippononly

for you diesel fans: do you still have to do like the old days and let the glow plugs warm up for like a minute before you can start them cold? Will they start and run as easily as gas engines in very cold conditions, like 0 Fahrenheit?

I am afraid that as enthusiastic as I am for a diesel come-back, I am woefully ignorant of many of their nuances.

What I want to see for my next purchase is a 50 mpg diesel-powered small passenger car. Can I dream?! ;-)

british_rover

The VW TDIs I have driven seem to start right up without having to wait. I almost always turn the key forward, pause, and then start my cars though. Just a habit I got with my Jeep since it seemed to start easier after the fuel injection system pressurized.

I haven't started a new small diesel in extreme cold yet though.

larsb

It will not be any different. All the new clean diesels are highly equipped vehicles with advanced high-technology emissions control devices and filters and etc.

Any independent car dealer working on them will need training and computer evaluation tools just as for the hybrids.

Here's their repair process in a nutshell, be it dealer or independent mechanic shop:

1. Hook the computer up to the car
2. It tells you what is wrong
3. You order the part
4. You use the technical manuals to install the replacement parts.

Not too tough.

Mr_Shiftright

Have you seen these new diagnostic computers that heavy trucks hook up to? The technician can control various devices on the truck from his laptop, like testing lights, wipers, etc. ...that is, actually make them operate from his laptop. Pretty cool.

RE: diesel fuel....diesel fuel will gel up in very cold temperatures, so you'll need an anti-gel addtiive, and in very cold weather, some kind of engine heater. I don't think bio-diesel is any better in this regard, maybe worse. Diesels can be to start below 25 degrees F or so and get real ornery at zero or below. Truckers in places like Alaska cure this problem by never shutting the trucks off.

blufz1

Good idea to get rid of the truck you only incidentally use. I was at home depot and had an item too long for my Accord to haul. The home depot guy said they had a pickup for customrers to rent for $ 20 for 75 minutes. I believe the stats indicate over half of pickups are not worked.

nippononly

I agree. I used to do a lot of offroading, really off the road and often off the trail, but it has been really hard to find the time this last year, and maybe not worth the gas and maintenance investment on the truck even if I could find the time.

That leaves car camping and trips to the snow, both of which I can do in my car. I'm not a DIY home improvement guy, so I don't need a truck for that. So why keep it and buy all that extra gas?

I think more and more places like Home Depot will develop variations on the $20 short-term truck rental thing, with some pushing low-priced delivery services and whatnot. It makes much more sense to do it that way than live with the larger upfront investment, much higher gas consumption, and higher maintenance and insurance bills that a truck entails.

1stpik

Volkswagen had to quit selling the Jetta TDI here this year because of stricter diesel emission standards. Technically, they can still sell 2006s (and they do), but no new 2007s.

I just read that VW will offer the Bluetec (Mercedes) clean burning diesel for 2008 and again sell the TDI here. It might even get better mpg than the current TDI -- EPA 30/38, combined 33. However, the car will sell for $27,000.

That's a lot of money! I know VW makes a nice little car, and I personally like them because their cars fit tall people.

But I'd have real trouble parting with $30 grand after taxes for a Jetta. I had enough trouble paying $22,000 for a Civic Hybrid -- EPA 40/45, combined 42.

Mr_Shiftright

if it's good looking, performs well and delivers superior gas mileage, people will buy it. They charge $30K for some MINIS and they are flying out the door right now.

andre1969

What kind of truck was it you had, Nippon? A 4runner or something like that? My memory's getting fuzzy here. I remember you having an RSX and then a Matrix, and now the Echo. I do remember you mentioning a truck, though; just forget what brand.

I'd also imagine that if it's a vehicle you use very infrequently, the insurance costs become prohibitive for something like that, too. Plus registration.

texases

As many have mentioned before, you don't need a hybrid or diesel to get decent mileage, and the extra investment in almost all cases doesn't pay. My brother is a long time Civic fan. His new manual 2-dr got 45 mpg on his last trip from Cincinnati to Spartanburg, SC, and they're way under $20k. And, as mentioned, diesel reliability is more a function of the design, remember the miserable GM diesels of the '80s?