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If you find it hard to believe, then do the math yourself. And this time, include the $2,100 tax credit!
Either I'm saving $2,100 off the MSRP of the hybrid, or I'm saving $58 per month with the tax credit ($2,100 divided by 36 months).
The hybrid costs $3,100 more than the regular Civic. Subtract $2,100 and you get a $1,000 premium. With the $50/month ($600/yr.) gas savings, the hybrid pays back in 1 yr. 8 mos.
Or, I pay $40 more on the basic payment, but save $58 with the tax credit. So I gain $18 per month from day one! How's that for a payback period?
No matter how you look at it, the hybrid is a good deal.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The 2006 Beetle TDI cost $19,000 - $23,000. That price, too, will increase, plus the Beetle coupe doesn't really compare to the Civic sedan.
The 2007 gasoline Rabbit 4 dr.costs $18,000 - $22,000. We'll see what the diesel version goes for.
BTW, the TDIs get 30 mpg city, 38 mpg highway, 33 mpg avg. The Civic hybrid gets 40/45, 42 mpg avg. See for yourself here: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm
****
So let's work this out for $1.59 CNG at the local station.(there are hundreds across the U.S.) Basically it's $2000 difference. Now, pollution and battery replacement and such aside(plus recycling the batteries and so on - all pretty toxic industries) - that's a cost of 5.7 cents a mile. 9.5 cents a mile for the hybrid. 3.8 cents saved. 52,000 miles. So, 4.5 years of normal driving. That's not too bad, either.
A Camry V6/Buick/etc - almost 16 cents a mile for comparison! Either option will save you silly amounts of money. - as much as ten cents a mile.
Tax credits for Toyota hybrids end either this month or Sept 30th. You decide from the website. Has conflicting dates.
Tax credit ends?
I agree with your numbers and it does appear that you will recoup the cost premium on the Civic Hybrid relatively fast in your case, but you must really be driving a lot. One question though. Does the Civic Hybrid really cost only $3100 more to drive off the lot? I know that with the regular Civic you can get it for under MSRP, is that the case with the hybrid?
No 52,000 miles isn't all that bad. Probably less than a 4 year payback time for most drivers. But that is based upon $4/gallon gas and $1.59 CNG at the pump. Gas is currently only $3/gallon and if you look at the long term contracts on the commodities market the consensus is that it will be a little lower than this over the coming years. So if you go with a more likely scenario of gas averaging $3/gallon the cost per mile of the hybrid 7.2 cents or only a 1.5 cent savings. Now it takes 133,000 miles.
Sure gasoline could go higher, it could also go lower. CNG could do the same. If you are using a financial rational for making this purchasing decision it should be based on what you consider to be the most probable.
I do agree that the Civic GX is a very clean car from an environmental perspective. If I was going to buy one that would be my primary motivation. I might add that I do get some of my initial investment back through fuel savings but I wouldn't promote this car as a money saver, which is what a lot of owners of these alternatively powered vehicles do.
Why is that? We've already established that it's not cheaper. Yes it is cleaner. As far as HOV access goes, the last time I was in California that wasn't all that great a deal. In fact I understand that there is some challenge to hybrid access to these lanes. Maybe it's already happened. If so could CNG powered vehicles be far behind?
Anyway, for your statement to make sense would require that the CA commuter's top priority is a clean burning car. More important than performance, ammenities, trunk space. Again, I've driven quite a bit in CA and from the vehicles I see I certainly don't get that sense.
So the way I see it the Civic GX's main claim to fame is how clean burning it is. I'm surprised that you consider this to be so important given that you are such a big diesel advocate.
Of course the tax credit does change this but I will have to check into what it actually is because they do go down after a set number of cars are sold.
No matter how you look at it, the hybrid is a good deal.
Nope, if saving money is your goal there are less expensive cars that get good mileage that will save you money over getting the Civic hybrid.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
And real-world driving with the 6-speed trans. I'm sure you crack 40mpg. And I prefer less motors and sensors - less to go wrong.
My car = 30 mpg
Hybrid = 50 mpg
difference 20 mpg
20 miles/gallon * 775 gallon = 15,500 miles
Any math wizzes out there that want to chime in?
chuckhoy,
Try this:
$3100 / $4/gal = 775 gallons
My car = 49 mpg (not quite, but this is an example)
Hybrid = 50 mpg
difference 1 mpg
1 miles/gallon * 775 gallon = 775 miles
You can see the logic is faulty!
The correct formula is:
(Cost / GasPrice) / (1/CurrentMPG - 1/FutureMPG)
(3100 / 4) / (1/49 - 1/50)= 1,898,750 miles
Or for your original example:
(Cost / GasPrice) / (1/CurrentMPG - 1/FutureMPG)
(3100 / 4) / (1/30 - 1/50)= 58,125 miles
Great news for who? If fuel prices stay high I expect these new diesels to be very popular. Meaning the bulk of that tax credit ends up going to the car dealership.
I definitely expect Honda diesels to be selling for over MSRP, which will be an indication that there is a strong demand, exceeding supply. Our government in it's infinite wisdom will find it necessary to increase this demand. It won't get any more of these vehicles on the road but it will add to the dealership's profits. Our tax dollars at work.
That's the problem with taking some time off and falling behind the posts. :-)
The base Rabbit 2-dr goes for $15,5, and the base Beetle is very little more. I figure the diesel will add about $2K to the price. A 2-door Rabbit TDI for $17,5 is a bargain, I think, given it has a lot of standard equipment even in base form. I am surprised, however, at the low projected fuel economy numbers. 30/38 is all it will do? I will go with a gas Civic or something smaller if that is the case.
I hope Subaru's new diesel does better numbers-wise.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In fact I might have some for lunch. YUmmy fat and all....
That's not the case. Biodiesel smells better but it's not exactly fragrant or french fry like (that myth comes from people using recycled restaurant oil. It's got a kind of musty, fairly neutral smell, you know, like a tailpipe!
I still like French Fries. :P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2007 Honda Civic EX msrp $19,500
2007 Civic Hybrid msrp $22,600
I paid $21,400 for the hybrid w/o navigation system last month, and I probably paid too much. Check these prices:
http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/showthread.php?t=12833
Last year, dealers were adding thousands to the msrp of hybrids. But this year the manufacturers increased production, so the supply and demand have equalized. You can get the same discount on a Civic Hybrid that you'd get on a regular Civic. Same financing, too.
It's true that Congress limits the number of hybrid tax credits on every model, but that doesn't affect the Civic Hybrid. The limit is around 60,000 units per year, and Honda sells 40,000 hybrids. Toyota sells 100,000 Prius hybrids, so buyers late in the model year get screwed with a reduced credit.
“Gas consumers can expect to pay between $3.16 and $3.79 a gallon for gas in 2008 after adding in the estimated impact of the Senate energy bill. By 2016, all states can expect gas prices in excess of $6.00"
Sorry anything from the Heritage foundation is instantly suspect to me.
Visiting Host
Exxon makes 11 cents per gallon profit on gasoline. The federal government makes 18 cents per gallon. Congress doesn't drill for oil, transport it, or refine it, yet they make 70% more money on gasoline than the oil companies.
Talk about obscene profits! Now they need more, and if they don't get it, the earth is DOOMED!
So true. I don't care WHAT political stripe sells fear...I refuse to respond to FEAR. I hope you do, as well.
However I will agree with you 100% that ethanol is a scam and merely a hidden subsidy to special interests in the states from which certain politicians are elected.
As for global warming, that is a proven scientific fact, so we'll have to deal with it one way or another....whatever that way turns out to be.
Visiting Host
What calculations? Cite your source. Here's an example:
The 2006 Jetta TDI got zero tax credit because it didn't meet the provisions of the Clean Diesel Vehicle Tax Credit in HR 6.
Source: http://www.dieselforum.org/fileadmin/templates/Resources/LDTax.pdf
Congress is trying to present this bill as if it's good for the environment, when the truth is that it's just another money grab.
If Congress was ever concerned about reducing automobile emissions, they'd only have to raise the passenger car CAFE standards. The number has been 27.5 mpg for the past 22 years.
Source: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/cafe/overview.htm
If Congress had continued raising that number by only 1/2 mpg per year, the current standard would be 38 mpg. Of course, if cars burned less fuel, then the federal government would get less money from the 18 cent/gal. fuel tax. And keeping CAFE stagnant keeps campaign contributions flowing from Exxon/Mobil, GM, etc.
Get the picture?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
p.s.-I'd only want it if it were revenue flat - fat chance!
I don't know about that. It seems to me that if you make it more expensive for the oil companies to do business at least some of that added expense will get passed on to the consumer. With these sweetheart deals they've been getting its quite possible that some wells/fields that had been profitable will no longer be, which will reduce supply, which will ultimately drive up costs. I'm not trying to defend the oil companies here but this just seems like common sense to me.
Anyone want to place guesses on what kind of mpg I end up getting? It'll be mostly highway, although some driving around in town and such, and the car has a Pontiac 350-2bbl and lame-o axle ratio like 2.41:1 or something like that.
I doubt I'll be putting too many Priuses to shame, but I wonder if I can get it into the upper teens?
Not yet...guess I should get around to that to really see what it is instead of guessing. I just remember reading somewhere that in 1976, GM started using 2.41:1 ratios in powertrain combinations where the 2.56:1 had once been standard.
I guess it *could* be a 2.56:1, but probably not anything much quicker. The car's pretty slow off the line. My '79 New Yorker, with a 360-2bbl and a 2.45:1 rear is faster. It actually seems more responsive at higher speeds, and is very willing to downshift.
I objected to this so I had Fresnel lens coverings on my license tags. You could only see my tags looking directly at them. They would not be seen by a traffic camera above.
I had a radar detector on my visor. Radar detectors are illegal in VA
I was doing about 85 in a 55 after crossing the bridge from VA to MD. The bridge cop caught up with me about 10 miles from the bridge. He had to be doing well over 85 to catch me.
He gave me a warning for the Fresnel covering. As he was talking to me, my radar detector went off as a MD radar car went by. The bridge cop said nothing about the beeping radar detector.
I almost laughed. He had to do close to 100 to catch me, said nothing about my speeding; knows I was in VA with a radar detector, says nothing about that, and gave me a warning ticket for license covering.
He saw me grinning and said, " You're grinning because you know that your license can't be read by a camera."
Right, that's why I was grinning.
I took the Fresnel covering off for about 6 months.
They're back on.
Big Brother can hop a spoon.
I haven't read the "tax" bill however. You may be right, it may not be at all a good idea...I really don't know just yet.
I was just commenting on the hysteria of the $6/gallon message, that's all. I'd need to read the bill in detail to know what else to say about it.
Visiting Host
Now now, Pat, I don't think that's appropriate talk. Now the big end of a baseball bat, THAT'S a different story! :P
BTW, I don't know if this is true or not, but I hear that if you have a pickup truck and drop the tailgate, that those cameras also can't read your license plate. I have a pickup truck, but I'm not about to try it to find out!