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I would buy the diesel version for a runabout. I liked the Cabriolet with leather.
I agree, the current USA gas version car is not going to sell well, as there are no benefits over similar gas cars that are more practical. The price point is all wrong.
I know SMART is counting on gas prices to save the company from extinction but they'll have to present a clear advantage to buyers to sell in the quantities necessary to survive. They've been bleeding too much red ink for too long. I think their situation is critical. The diesel cars might save them.
At $3 gas in spring, oil at another $40 per barrel now, we should be looking at $4/gallon by next spring. I must say we are well on our way here in California, although the recent meteoric rise in prices seems to have plateaued temporarily at around $3.40/gallon for regular.
The head of the Saudi oil ministry and a couple of economists here in the States have stated/complained that oil prices are inflated by $10-30 per barrel as a result of the way in which oil futures are traded, and the consequent speculation (profit-taking by people with lots of money and time) that occurs. That stinks. :-(
The Saudi oil minister has proposed removing oil from the NYMEX to bring the price of oil more in line with normal market forces: ie cost of extraction plus the supply/demand factor.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Besides that, your original comment concerned buying a $5000 car. Now I don't know about other parts of the country, but $5000 in California isn't buying you any 5-year-old car, except maybe one with WELL over 100K miles, or something VERY cheap in the first place like a Kia Rio or Chevy Aveo.
A $5000 car will need thousands and thousands of dollars in repairs in five years. I'm not convinced it would get to $20K in repairs, but as you have stated you would be paying 50-75% of the cost of just having bought the new car, and you will have a tired old car to drive instead of one that's under warranty and unlikely to ever strand you. What's the point?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Sure you may go to a lot and they're asking $6K or $7K, but you still can walk out the door for $5K, if you don't accept the first 2 or 3 offers.
And I have driven different cars that I either bought new or bought a few years old - probably 10-12 different, and I can't remember ever spending more than a $1,000/year maintenance, except when the car needed brakes and tires in the same year.
Are you guys going to the dealer for oil changes, or all driving Mercedes and Porsches? I mean a radiator flush and tune up are now only needed every 4 or 5 years. Are you buying carbon-fiber dice instead of the fuzzy ones?
We are beginning to see the phenomenon where a 5 to 7 year old used car's engine is worth more than the used car itself. Some cars require $300 to $600 power steering hoses, and $500 headlight assemblies (and they have two of each). You could spend $2,500 rebuilding a transmission on a beater Taurus.
Yes, yes, you can scrounge at junkyards but not when your car is down and you need to get to work.
I also don't see buying cheap cars as a solution to our $4 a gallon problem. No more than buying a new car could be justified strictly on terms of gas costs.
No car payment for a couple of decades now and I've spent $195 on maintenance on the Subaru since I got it used in '03. I've spent $2958 on the Quest for maintenance since 12/98 when we drove it off the lot new. What you save by driving them forever can buy a lot of $4 gas, assuming you don't wind up with a high maintenance rig like Gagrice's Lexus seems to be.
My ski buddy has a 12 year old F150 that shows its age, but he still decided to spring the $5,000 for a crate engine with a 3 year warranty instead of buying a newer truck.
On my first car, a '65 Mustang, I did a lot of the work myself. Had to. It seemed that over the first years of owning my own car in the late 70's and early 80's I was stranded and as the 90's approached I decided that I was gonna consider a new car.
I finally splurged on a new car in the spring of '94. I bought a 1994 Ford Escort wagon, automatic tranny and Brilliant Blue in color. Under Warranty it needed an exhaust manifold replaced. That started my acquisition of buying only new cars. I made a short exception in the spring of '97 I bought a used Ford Escort sedan with 18,000 miles on it. Dark metallic purple and automatic tranny again. I traded that Escort in on a new Kia Sephia sedan in May of '99 then traded the Sephia in on a 2001 Kia Sportage 4X4 in Sept. '01.
That Sportage 4X4 stranded me once, it's alternator blew out on my way to the Lake of the Ozarks hospital for Respiratory Therapy clinicals. It was just after 6:00AM and I got a nice view of some cows in pastures. A nice gentlemen who taught high school in the nearest town with a mechanic gave me a ride in to town. The Sportage 4X4 was towed in and repaired the next day by a local mechanic(he had to order an alternator in).
Interestingly, the car I rented while that repair was being made, was one from Enterprise Rent-a-car in a small town named Lebanon, Missouri. That car was none other than an earlier iteration of a Japanese car I would later trade my '01 Sportsman in on. It was a plain white '04 Mitsubishi Lancer. The '04 Lancer was a decent ride and I liked it enough to keep it in the back crevasces of my mind as I researched new cars to buy on the net.
The trade for a new '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS was made in March of '07. I think it became an inconvenience issue for me. I always need a reliable car to drive and that keeps me buying new rigs.
BTW-Kia stranded me once and but my two Kia's were generally very reliable rigs(the Sephia never stranded me BTW) and I will remember that when buying a new car again. My '08 Lancer GTS has much of the same Warranty as my Kia's, which are very thorough and have roadside assistance, hotel coverage, rental car coverage, etc. and so that means enough to me to keep getting new rigs and not buying an old 1968 Datsun 510 sedan and restoring it to the hilt.
One of those in great condition would be nice but there we go again, I'd be on my own for repairs, and a good friend of mine back in Washington state told me that Datsun/Nissan's are a nightmare to work on, mainly for electrical nightmares.
So far my foray in to buying new rigs has been painless enough to work for me and the fun involved searching for just the right rig can't be discounted, either.
Oh, and as for $4.00 ghastly, what might I do? Drive my Lancer GTS and enjoy it. My commute is a half mile and we can just cut out some funtime excursions to Phoenix, Tucson, Sierra Vista or Safford if ghastly prices get too out of control.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
In all fairness to the Lexus. It is the Lexus dealerships that are rip-off artists. When a routine maintenance is over $1000 there is something wrong. We have spent less than $3000 over the last 5 years on that car. That included tie-rods, brakes and a new set of tires. I will be surprised if a 2007 Lexus is still on the road in 2025. Like was pointed out they are making them reliable for lots of miles. Not lots of years. Built-in obsolescence.
And you actually drive? That's walking distance man!!!
I have only spent over $1k in maintenance and repair costs on one car in a year once. That was when I had to replace the alternator, tires and usual oil changes. Even then it was not much over. Then again, I don't drive a $50k MB either.
I never hhad a transmission go except for normal wear of a clutch; and the only engine I had that needed a rebuild was at 210K. So i do keep my cars for a while.
If new cars were such a good deal financially then you'd think 50M people would buy a new car every couple of years. Next time I'm in McDonald's or such I'll explain to the workers how I learned they could be better off if they just ditched their 2000 Grand Am and went and bought a new Pontiac G6.
Wouldn't that be ironic that if you go to see a Personal Finance Counselor, because you're in debt, the first thing they advise you is to go buy a new car!
That would be the whole assembly. I had to get a new one for the Accent after I whacked a deer and it was $300 something. A headlight for an S2000 is around $1000. Bulbs are pretty cheap unless your car has HIDs.
For someone like me who does the Dagwood "clear a path" to the front door thing every morning in constant quest to make it to work on time I'm totally tied in to driving to work. Even if it is slowly wearing my Lancer's engine out faster. Ouchy!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I remember back in college, one of my friends had an '89 Z-24 and broke out one of the composite headlights. The dealer wanted an obscene $100 or so for a replacement. We got the bright idea to try finding one from the junkyard. Alas, at the time, just about every potential donor Cavalier in the yard was either smashed in the front, or had already had the front-end clip removed, headlights and all. I think we wasted about a day riding around to various junkyards, and my buddy finally gave up and just went to the dealer.
And nowadays, you get the added "bonus" of plastic assemblies that deteriorate over time and cloud up, flake apart, crack, etc. So if it's a newer car you're looking for, chances are the front's either going to be smashed, or the front clip already removed and re-sold as a unit. And if it's an older car, one that went in for mechanical failure perhaps, chances are its headlight assemblies are shot, anyway. :sick:
In contrast, I went to the junkyard in 1994 to pull the bumper/grille combination off of a 1969 Bonneville. The license plate on the bumper said "1978", so I'm guessing that's when it was "retired". Probably got junked around that time. When I put that assembly on my '69 Bonneville, three of the four headlights still worked! Sometimes the "bad old days", weren't TOO bad, after all.
Remember the days of going to a discount house or auto parts house to buy a replacement round (or, square) sealed beam headlight. Even with halogens, those off-the-shelf standard sealed-beam headlights wouldn't cost you more than $10. Now, it's hundreds if you have to replace more than just the bulb. Somehow, I just don't think this is rational progress.
Pock! It hit my windshield and left a death-star cleanly there that I knew was going to spread. That freaks you out when your eyes pick up on something that just keeps getting closer and closer to you and then finally pops in to your windshield.
I mean, that thing was bouncing end-over-end on the freeway and it was bouncing up high in to the air. It was approximately 6 inches long and about an inch-and-a-half wide. Freaky deal.
One Boeing manager was working his last day of work at the Everett Boeing plant. He was retiring at only 53 years of age. As he neared the Everett plant on the "Boeing Freeway" some 14 y/o kids dropped a large boulder down from an overpass on to his car and killed him instantly. There's unfortunately a lot of ever-angry people in Washington state.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
LOL, actually, that's what I did the last time I had to replace a headlight. It was in my '79 New Yorker, which uses the old-fashioned round quad headlights. One of my low-beams had actually been out for a couple years, but I rarely drove that car at night so I just forgot about it. Until last year when I took it to the Mopar Nats in Carlisle. Normally I'd come home Sunday afternoon when it was still light out, but that year I came home Saturday nite. And needless to say, I got busted by a cop in Thurmont, Maryland, about half-way home.
One thing I'll say for my 2000 Intrepid's headlights...cloudy that they are, I've NEVER had to replace a headlight bulb in that car. I did have to replace two taillight bulbs though, and the bulb that illuminates the license plate in back.
I've been driving for about 21 years, and have only had to replace one windshield. But then, they adjusted my medication and it never happened again :P
Oops, I left my new tires off my spreadsheet. That's another $351 for a set of Avid T4s.
That's 4 IMs, 2 oil & filter changes, new battery, tires, and front brake pads ($55 - did the labor myself). for a new grand total of $546.11 over 26,500 miles (the previous owner had done the 30k service right before I bought it).
Looks like I'm due for an oil change. :shades:
Make you a good deal on it.
btw, gas jumped another dime here in the last few days up to $3.09 for regular. (Report Your Local Gas Prices Here)
I
We were talking about buying some stranger's $5,000 used car and comparing it to buying a new car with 5 years of warranty, or if it's your former new car, then you start counting maintenance from the 6th year of ownership, not from when you were yourself in warranty. That's a fair comparison.
So in other words, you buy a $5,000 used car, I buy a new Scion xA, (well if they made them anymore--let's say an equivalent Japanese car) and in 5 years we see who came out on top. But you have to charge for your labor and you can't be driving a car that's a cripple.
With those few rules, I think I'll win hands down. :P
It's due for a 60k service (plugs and fluids). The one quote I got so far was $800, but that included a timing belt that's not due to be changed until 105k. And a bunch of other dealer "inspections."
The '99 Quest was new when we got it and it'll be 9 years old this December. The powertrain warranty lasted 5/50. Total maintenance for it over the entire 9 years has been $2,566 and it's due for one of those $1,000 tune-ups.
So, since 2004 (the 6th year, when it probably was worth $5,000), I've spent $341 maintaining it (plus my labor for the CV joint and front pads). Throw in the $1,000 for the belt and plugs and fluids it needs.
I defer stuff like oil changes because I don't believe in the 3,000 mile oil myth, but I don't think there's anything I've declined to fix except a sticky tach in the Quest. TCO for it is running about .36 a mile, including depreciation.
What was the question again?
For me to drive a beater all the time would be close to having to listen to Britney Spear's new CD at loud volumes for two years straight. If that wouldn't drive you absolutely crazy I don't know what would.
What passes for entertaining music these days is humorous at best, eh?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
And you actually drive? That's walking distance man!!!
That reminds me of something I read in Reader's Digest once: Only in America will you find people getting into their car and driving 1/2 mile to the local health club to exercise.
An average family of 4 will have two vehicles and one of those vehicles will need no more space than a Smart has. The Smart is a very good second car for the vast majority of two car families.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I'll never have to worry about cloudy lenses on my Park Avenue as the composite lenses are actually glass! I guess it would be hard to bend glass into the myriad shapes of headlight lenses these days.
Sorry you have to count the tachometer you didn't fix, and any other functional component that is substandard---remember we are comparing to a NEW car.
Anyway, my point was that for me to drive an old used car 15,000 miles a year with perfect function and reliability at freeway speeds day after day (that is, the equivalent of a new car) I would have to spend at least $85 a month on maintenance. Having kept great records over the years on all my used cars, this was the CHEAPEST monthly expenditure I have EVER achieved.
SO:
By new MINI for 21,000 + sales tax = $22,500 with $5,000 down. Sell in 4 years for $16,000. Total expenditure was $6,500 PLUS interest over 4 years.
OR:
Buy used Toyota for $5,000, spend $85 a month for 48 months ($4,080) and sell car for $2,000. Total expenditure is $3,000 depreciation + $4080 maintenance = $7080).
So you see it can work out to be very close if you pick the right new car to buy AND if you maintain the used car to a new car standard of reliability.
SURE, if you try this with a Jaguar or Saab for the new car, you'll get creamed by the used car buyer.
I've kept car/gas records since my first car in '74 and I always beat the "Hertz" cost per mile estimates (wish I had kept all my log books over the years). My '82 Tercel broke down in 1995 or so, and that cost me a cab fare. It later cranked after some sleep engineering. The '89 Voyager tried to strand me several times, but I was always able to get it back into limp mode. About the only way I can justify the expense of a newer car is for the safety upgrades (assuming I don't get one of those rigs that always breaks down, but you don't see many of those getting towed these days).
We've only had 4 cars since 1982, so my experience is limited, and never had a freeway commute. Big YMMV stuff.
The '89 Voyager purchased new cost .32 cent a mile to one and operate over ten years (that's gas, insurance, registration, repairs). The '99 Quest purchased new is running at .35 a mile TCO using $5k as its current depreciated value. I haven't plugged in my insurance, registration and depreciation numbers into my '97 Subaru spreadsheet yet - the repair number is .02 a mile over ~26,000 miles. Looks like around $11 a month on it for maintenance plus some of that "free" labor.
A good way to beat the high cost of gas is to drive them forever, whether you buy new or used (10 years is about forever).
As for accumulating wealth, that is a young man's game. When you are as old as Shiftright, you don't talk about "making money", you start talking about "getting money".
I need to have my fun while I'm still breathing. If you're 35 years old you have a different view of the brick wall at the end.
I don't agree about "driving a car forever". I think there is a point of rapidly diminishing returns on a car, and I think it's right about 100,000 miles.
Somehow hypermaintainers doesn't fit the M.O. :shades:
Frugal, cheap and unsafe don't have the right ring to them. :P
Back in the 50's the limits of a car seemed to be 60,000 miles at most. In the 80's and 90's, the boundary got pushed to 100,000. I'm thinking the new figure is pushing 150,000 miles now.
Depending on the car I would say its between 150-200K. I am closing in on 150K and have only spent money on routine maintence. :shades:
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
There's just something about a new car that overwhelms all other rational arguments--having something thats yours from the get-go, for you to take care of as you please. I just got tired of living in other people's habits and neglect with used cars.
Of course, a 2-3 year old car that's been really taken care of could be tempting, and smart money, too.
I keep losing that argument with my wife too. The only reason I got the used Outback was because it was going to be my car. Knowing the owner and the car's history was also a big factor.
I take a little solace knowing I get 22.75 mpg vs her 21.50. :shades:
I've found that if owners really added up everything, or kept total receipts, they've got a lot more in their used cars than they think they do.
Without careful records and rigorous credibility, it's hard to judge the expense of a used car vs. a new one. I can only relate my own experience here:
Best used car: Mercedes 300D @ $85 a month maintenance
AND IN THIS CORNER
2006 Scion, owned exactly 24 months, now with 34,000 miles and a firm offer (check in hand) for $11, 500.
The numbers?
total cost of Scion with tax license etc $15,300
less selling price of $11,500
leaves expense of $3,800 + 275 in maintenance = $4075
BENZ: Purchased for $1,500, run two years @ $85 month, sold for $1,500, total expenses $2040.
IF both cars had been purchased at the same time, let's say 2006, we'd have a fuel cost differential of $1,500 in favor of the Scion.
So Phew!
Scion $4075 less fuel savings over Benz of $1,500 in 34K miles = total of $2575
Total expenses of Benz $2040.
So really even over two years, it was pretty close.