Are gas prices fueling your pain?

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Comments

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    If the $3.50 national average comes true by spring, then we will be paying $4/gallon before Memorial Day where I am. DARN do we ever need vehicles with better fuel economy available today!

    The $2.95/gallon in Gig Harbor sounds fantastic, in my area we never got below $3.20/gallon this winter. I think it won't just spike over $4/gallon here this year, it will stay at $4/gallon for an extended period from late March all the way through the summer driving season. Good thing I didn't have a long driving vacation planned this year. Although I suppose next summer, when I AM planning a trip, will be just as bad or worse.

    I wonder, if we saw a really bad storm that messed with oil or gasoline production this summer, if we would see spikes over $5/gallon, or if the higher gas prices these days will reduce the amplitude of future spikes.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • blkbr0thablkbr0tha Member Posts: 25
    Go to my blog bout small cars that is completely revolutionizing the market overseas! The NANO!

    http://tata.nano.car.googlepages.com/

    You wont believe it! lol
    If people are worried bout going GREEN- what would a small car capable of being bought by ANYONE (for $2500) in CHINA / INDIA/ or THAILAND have an efect on greenhouse gas emmisions? hmmmmmmmm

    I can see the demand rising for alternative fuels already.....
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    And it doesn't meet modern emissions standards in the US or Europe, FWIW. So it's not just more demand for fuel, but also more dirty emissions.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    I understand the Nano meets the old Euro III standards, which isn't too bad. It has to be a lot better than those 2-stroke scooters. I have read that cleaning up the emissions isn't too tough these days; the real challenger is meeting Western crash standards.
  • 1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    Sure, the Tata doesn't meet the emission standards of the U.S. But what do you think spews out more pollution -- the 600 cc 2 cylinder Nano, or the 5 litre V8 in an SUV?
  • chuckhoychuckhoy Member Posts: 420
    Sure, the Tata doesn't meet the emission standards of the U.S. But what do you think spews out more pollution -- the 600 cc 2 cylinder Nano, or the 5 litre V8 in an SUV?

    Depends on your view of CO2. If you exclude CO2 from the conversation, I would say the Nano pollutes more. A lot also depends on the quality of the gas. High Sulfur gas would emit a LOT more SO2 than what is available in the US. Not to mention if leaded gas is still available where the Nano roams.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    If you're talking about CO2, which traditionally hasn't been regarded as a pollutant, then the V8 is obviously worse. But if you're talking about the "noxious" pollutants such as HC, CO, and oxides of nitrogen, then the Nano would be worse than any current US-spec vehicle in proper tune.
  • coontie66coontie66 Member Posts: 110
    My thoughts exactly... It shouldn't matter how much nasty stuff a vehicle puts out with a gallon of gas but it should be based on the nasty stuff put out for a mile of driving..

    Egg headed folks at EPA just can't get that one figured out however.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Huh? The EPA does measure noxious pollutants in grams per mile.
  • chuckhoychuckhoy Member Posts: 420
    If you have the mpg and g/mile emission rates, it is not THAT hard to figure it out. I think the emissions/gallon are better numbers to use because that also takes into account things like idling, towing, and other activities that use more fuel than you would normally use. But, no way is perfect.
  • blkbr0thablkbr0tha Member Posts: 25
    *Cough Cough*- I think the Nano may have given me a T000-mah (arnold S)., but at least I have $$ after my purchase to buy medical care! :)

    Long live the cheap- health hazard cars! ?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...a guy riding a pretty nice motor scooter that had a resemblance to a "ninja bike" last night as I was walking to the mailbox. My commute to work is short and on mostly on side streets. Maybe a motor scooter would be good for short fair weather commutes.
  • blkbr0thablkbr0tha Member Posts: 25
    I too have about 4 miles to work and take side streets.

    Certainly when it comes to scooters- the Euro market is better in terms of design. I have saw some of the Honda- Vespa models- bleh! Yamaha probably has some more eye appealing models though.

    Check this one out...VERY NICE!
    http://www.kymco.it/schede/scheda_ridotta.php?scelta_modello=1016_XCT

    Whenit comes to saving $$ on gasoline- it is always best to be proactive! :)
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    If your commute is that short and traffic-light, you could just ride a bike.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Trouble is, the middle third of it is on a very busy street with a lot of traffic lights and a very scary intersection. I usually walk or take the bus on days I don't need the car.
  • blkbr0thablkbr0tha Member Posts: 25
    Thought about that- bicycle and all, but I definitely do not want to ride a bicycle everywhere. Plus I am in the south and riding a bicycle in the spring or even summer is near impossible without sweating like a hog in high heat!

    I live close to my golf course- grocery stores/ mall- scooter may be a good deal to scoot if prices go higher all around for me AND stay comfortable from the heat!

    I can just see me now- showingup to work in slacks that are sticking to my legs and shirt with sweat stains under my arms lol.... not cool at all!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    When I lived close enough to a subway station I would ride a bike to the subway, and back.

    It worked except in the summer heat, the winter cold, and in the rain.

    So basically I had to walk 1/2 the time.
  • tedebeartedebear Member Posts: 832
    I can just see me now- showingup to work in slacks that are sticking to my legs and shirt with sweat stains under my arms lol.... not cool at all!

    That problem is easily solved. Keep a few changes of clothes at work. Once a week or so you can drive to work and swap dirty loads. Of course, you'd actually RIDE to work wearing cool-looking cycling apparel. ;)

    If your work has showers, use them. If not, Baby Wipes work great.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    cool-looking cycling apparel.

    No such creature exists.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • tedebeartedebear Member Posts: 832
    cool-looking cycling apparel.

    No such creature exists.


    Well, it's usually the shape of what's on the inside that determines how cool it looks. Santa probably wouldn't look cool in lycra. :D
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Well, it's usually the shape of what's on the inside that determines how cool it looks.

    While that may be true for spandix there is just no way to look cool wearing bicycle sport wear.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I'm with Ted. But we're all a bit off-topic. :shades:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Think of how much gas you could save driving your Prius in stealth mode following a good looking woman in Lycra on her bicycle :)
  • 1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    think how much MORE gas you'll save while serving your 30 day jail sentence for stalking.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    if it's outlawed to follow someone; that would sort of undermine the whole business of the paparazzi, not to mention private investigators. And they even take pictures. Lock them away for ever! ;) I guess that's the difference between public areas and private areas.

    I thought cruising the beach looking at girls in bikinis is a great hobby and use of $4 gas!
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Speaking of Shell...The former Chairman weighs in on the subject link

    Good looking guy that I'm sure you'd trust with you most valued possessions, aye?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That last phrase is a key part of his message: regulation is needed, but it doesn't need to be of the "do it this way, not that way" variety. His call is for regulation that sets a goal but allows industry figure out how to get there.

    That is some of the problem in the USA. We have competing government agencies giving the automakers mixed signals. Do this, no do that. It is no wonder they balk at every new legislation. We do not need CAFE, EPA and CARB each setting different standards for the oil companies and automakers to follow.

    An example is the mileage figures from the EPA are not the same as the CAFE. How screwed up is that? CARB has long set different emissions standards than EPA. Yet you can drive in CA and register a used vehicle in CA with the lower standards. If they are going to regulate vehicles it should be every vehicle that crosses into CA. We check everyone coming into the state for fruit flies. Make sure their car passes CA emissions when they cross the border.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Check out those eyebrows! ;)
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,690

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    They credit conservation, yet say consumption climbed 1% over a year ago, and only normally climbs 1.5-2%. That makes me think that it's the recession, not people deciding to conserve fuel more, that is driving the increasing gasoline stocks.

    If the economy does a turnaround by summer, especially if the Bush tax rebate checks get people feeling all warm and fuzzy and ready to spend, I think we will still see gas prices rise towards the summer driving season.

    But hopefully this will delay the rise in prices until Memorial Day. Last year, prices started to rise quickly in March. :-(

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    especially if the Bush tax rebate checks get people feeling all warm and fuzzy and ready to spend, I think we will still see gas prices rise towards the summer driving season.

    Yes our government does not necessarily act to encourage conservation, because keeping growth of the economy going is the priority. By giving money back to people to spend, people are going to burn more gasoline in some way. By burning more gasoline, the price will increase again.

    The other problem I have with government policies is: their promotion to everyone to travel. What I mean in particular is the advertising campaigns that states pay for (of course with our tax $) for everyone to come to their state for vacation. How many of us live in a state that advertises to attract tourists? The states want to support their local tourist areas over conservation. Does it make sense to encourage unnecesssary driving? How much gasoline is burned by millions of people who drive hundreds of miles on such trips?

    I know NH advertises for people to drive here, and then drive around the mountains to see the leaves change each year. Is that a good use of gasoline? It does decrease the supply and drive up prices.

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,131
    Is that a good use of gasoline? It does decrease the supply and drive up prices.


    I guess that's the tourism industry lobby at work. Worse still is the subsidized gas in producing countries, our conservation measures will be insignificant compared to the waste generated in China, Venezuela, and the Middle East.

    Also, will the current rise in compact/smaller car sales stall if gas prices drop?
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    "Also, will the current rise in compact/smaller car sales stall if gas prices drop?"

    This is a very good question, and my feeling is yes. Which is unfortunate, because the current gas price shock is just one of many to come for Americans in the next couple of decades.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    That makes me think that it's the recession

    Well we are not in a recession, at least not yet. I would think that its more due to a decrease in demand which usually occures this time of year. The summer it will rise again but not because a am economic boost but because of the traditional driving season when people make a lot more distant trips.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Well, I was responding specifically to the article, snake. It stated that there was some evidence of conservation, leading to increasing stocks of gasoline, which they speculated would lead to a $0.50 drop in gas prices if the trend continues.

    I don't think it's conservation in the sense of "let's conserve gas" as much as it is for some people the sense of "the recession has squeezed my wallet to the point where those distant vacations are off, as is a lot of my discretional driving".

    And I hope that peoples' choices of new vehicle have changed dramatically enough towards fuel-efficient in the last couple of years that it is also a factor in the dent in gas consumption increase year over year.

    It is possible that without a substantial improvement in the economy and without Bush's tax check, demand will NOT increase in summer anywhere near as much as it usually does. Makes me think Bush should cancel his tax rebate proposal, if only to keep gas prices down! :-P

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    We may not be in an official recession, as defined by the gov't (two consecutive quarters of negative growth), but regardless, I'm sure a lot of people are feeling the pinch.

    Remember that rough spot we went through back at the beginning of the new millenium? The tech bubble burst, the 9/11 tragedy, and the ensuing mayem? Tehnically, that was never a recession! We had three quarters of negative growth, but none of them were consecutive (3rd quarter 2000, 1st quarter 2001, and 3rd quarter 2001). However, looking at my old financial records, it looks like things started going to crap around November 2000 (I remember it was like a week after I gave up my part time job delivering pizzas, and seeing my net worth take a dive really made me think twice about that move), I bottomed out around October 2002, and wasn't back into what I'd consider good territory until maybe summer of 2003.

    And according to the gov't, that rough 1980-83 patch we went through was really only a recession from July 1981 to November 1983. Yet I remember people in 1980 scrambling to buy smaller, more fuel-efficient cars. Although one of our neighbors, a snooty, uppity lady, went from a mid-70's Torino to a 1971 Coupe DeVille! Considering the fuel economy of those Torinos though, that might have been a step up! In Feb 1980, my Mom swapped her '75 LeMans 350 for an '80 Malibu 229, and that was considered a drastic move at the time!

    Oddly though, by early 1982, when we were in a full-blown recession, demand for big cars started to return. Chevy was having big problems moving its Celebrity, which was supposed to be sort of the family car of the future. It was taking hefty rebates to move them, and the Malibu, which the Celeb was supposed to replace, ended up outselling it that year. Yet the Caprice, which they purposely curtailed production of to help with the CAFE averages, was suddenly selling for sticker price as people clamored for their big cars! Go figure. :confuse:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I would expect people to take vacations in a car during a recession, rather than fly. The airlines would be harder hit by recession.

    I don't think the big vehicles are losing sales in this downturn. Look at Toyota. Overall sales down. Truck and SUV sales are up.

    February 1, 2008 - Torrance, CA - Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc., today reported January sales of 171,849 vehicles, a decrease of 2.3 percent from last January.

    Toyota Division passenger cars recorded January sales of 83,409 units, down 3.8 percent from last January.

    Toyota Division light truck sales were up 1.6 percent, with best-ever January sales of 68,141 units. Light truck sales were led by the Tundra full-size pickup with best-ever January sales of 12,073, an increase of 91 percent over last January.

    Sequoia posted sales of 2,377 units for the month, up 15.5 percent over the same period last year.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    I don't think the new Tundra was out in full-force yet back in January 2007. As for the Sequoia, there's an all-new model based on the new Tundra that I've seen at auto shows. Is it in the showrooms yet? If so, that could account for increased sales, as the old Sequoia was not only getting a bit long in the tooth, but also suffered from that "not quite full size" stigma that the previous Tundra suffered.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    When I bought my new Sequoia in October. They were selling as much as $5k below invoice. Main reason I bought. I am glad I did as I am not impressed with the looks of the new one. I did go to take a test drive. The dealer did not have a one in stock. Told me they were selling as fast as they could get them in. Looks like Toyota's big winners are trucks, SUVs and the Prius. Kind of like having all or nothing to me.

    I do wish it had a bigger tank. My old Suburban was 46 gallons. I could go a couple months without filling. I have been putting more miles than usual with moving. So I am already up to 3500 miles in just over 4 months.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    You're right in that the new Tundra was just ramping up in production in January '07. Also as Gary mentioned, the Sequoia has just been redesigned.

    My guess is the car total will rise for Toyota, if only slightly, compared to last year.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    I don't think its either a conservation movement nor the economy, just the seasonal changes in gas usage. I suspect that as springtime comes and people start driving more that prices will go up again.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    I agree; it wouldn't surprise me a bit to see prices start rising again next month. They've only gone down about 15 cents here in the last couple of months or so (to $2.84 for 87).
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    We may not be in an official recession, as defined by the gov't (two consecutive quarters of negative growth), but regardless, I'm sure a lot of people are feeling the pinch.

    The preliminary figures for the 4th qtr 2007 was a small 0.6% increase in GDP so while we are slowing down a bit we are not in the beginning of a recession. While many areas of the economy are holding their own there are certain aspects that are hitting a segment of the population hard.

    However, looking at my old financial records, it looks like things started going to crap around November 2000

    I think it was closer to six months before that. Many economic indicators were going down the toilet during the summer of 2000.

    And according to the gov't, that rough 1980-83 patch we went through was really only a recession from July 1981 to November 1983. Yet I remember people in 1980 scrambling to buy smaller, more fuel-efficient cars.

    I would suspect that that was a after shock of the 70's especially the late 70's when you couldn't buy gas on Sundays and many stations limited how much you could buy.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • 1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    By government accounting methods, we're perpetually in recession. See, when any government agency demands an 8% budget increase, but it only gets 5%, the agency claims it just suffered a 3% CUT.

    Likewise, if we all wanted our economy to grow at 5% this year, but it only grew 1%, then we're in a recession.

    And if you were counting on winning the lottery last year, but you didn't, then you suffered a $1,000,000 loss.

    See how that works?

    Anyway, the federal economic reports are classic LAGGING economic indicators; that is, they only tell us what already happened. Economists like to cite LEADING economic indicators, but they're a bit highbrow for most folks.

    The average guy only has to look at the stock market to get an idea of economic conditions. And right now, the market is collapsing, despite radical interest rate cuts designed to prop up the DOW and NASDAQ (1.5 point cut just last week).

    Anyway, recession or not, don't count on gas prices dropping. The oil and gas markets detached from reality several years ago. They no longer respond to any market forces (including the 14 year record high gasoline inventory cited in the article). They just keep going up.

    Kind of like taxes.

    .
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Again, I'm referring to the ARTICLE snake. I believe it was referring to a whole year in the amount gas consumption had increased, not just one season.

    Around here, gas bottomed out around $3.15/gallon this winter, which is about $0.25/gal more than it bottomed out last winter. I don't like that trend...

    I have no doubt that prices will go up again in spring, it's just a question of when that starts. Last year it was March 15th, much earlier than normal, and the record gas prices for the whole year were before Memorial Day, unprecedented.

    I hope this year gas in my area rises no higher than $3.50 before Memorial Day.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Here in San Diego the 50 least expensive stations are under $2.89. I just filled for $2.83 per gallon. The most I have paid here in San Diego was $3.31 in May 06. Last May it got to $3.28. The cheapest gas here in the last year was $2.29.

    Gas is really pretty cheap considering the high price of oil. It was about $55 a year ago.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    So were they gouging us then, or are they doing us a favor now?! ;-)

    Everything about the gasoline market seems manipulated by the oil companies to me.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    February 1, 2008 - Torrance, CA - Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc., today reported January sales of 171,849 vehicles, a decrease of 2.3 percent from last January.

    Toyota Division passenger cars recorded January sales of 83,409 units, down 3.8 percent from last January.

    Toyota Division light truck sales were up 1.6 percent, with best-ever January sales of 68,141 units. Light truck sales were led by the Tundra full-size pickup with best-ever January sales of 12,073, an increase of 91 percent over last January.

    Sequoia posted sales of 2,377 units for the month, up 15.5 percent over the same period last year.


    The entire decrease at Toyota / Lexus was about 4000 units and it's specifically due to the changeover in the Corolla line ( - 4800 units ). The other big models were either up or even ( Camry, Prius, RAV, Tundra, Highlander )...a few were down. Looking at one month is way way too myopic. At the end of 6 months or a year then it's a good time to asses the direction.
  • 1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    The lackeys in the automotive press are trying to make a big deal over the drop in Toyota sales vs. the increase in GM sales.

    They conveniently forget to mention that Toyota is selling its cars near msrp with normal finance rates, while GM is giving away its cars thousands below msrp and using artificial 0% financing for 5 years.

    Anyone can "sell" a lot of cars at (or below) cost.

    .
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    They conveniently forget to mention that Toyota is selling its cars near msrp with normal finance rates, while GM is giving away its cars thousands below msrp and using artificial 0% financing for 5 years.

    Is Toyota still getting away with that, though? I heard that they had to start using hefty rebates and incentives to get the new Tundra to sell at a reasonable level. The Corolla has been selling at a discount for some time now, which probably explains why it outsells the Civic. And even the Camry is starting to show up in rental fleets in record numbers. That's record for a Camry now...still nowhere near the level that GM, Ford, or Chrysler would pump up their volume.

    In addition, I heard that GM was actually cutting back on their incentives, rebates, and fleet-dumping.
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