Are gas prices fueling your pain?

lemko

I'm not surprised the Celebrity had trouble selling as it looked like and was a piece of crap compared to the more solid Malibu and Caprice. I remember seeing my first Celebrity and was terrified that it actually was the future of Chevrolet. The tinny doors were wafer thin as were the barely padded seats. It had this bizarre dashboard that looked like you were peering through a gun slit to see the instruments. Fit and finish was an absolute joke and I hadn't seen this much orange peel since visiting a Sunkist grove. Its FWD drivetrain versus the Malibu and Caprice's RWD platform was a .45 bullet in the Celebrity's head.

andre1969

I'm not surprised the Celebrity had trouble selling as it looked like and was a piece of crap compared to the more solid Malibu and Caprice.

I'm also guessing that the Chevy Citation left a bad taste in a lot of buyers' mouths. I don't think it was that big of a secret at the time that the Celebrity was based on the Citation platform, and that may have scared buyers away. As I recall, the 1982 Cavalier didn't sell all that well initially either. I think it was becoming widely known at the time that GM still did big cars well, but wasn't so hot with smaller models.

I'd have to dig out my old car book to verify, but I think the Celebrity was also priced pretty high initially. IIRC the 4-cyl Celeb was about the price of a V-6 Malibu, whereas the V-6 was priced about the same as a Malibu V-8. And even if the Celebrity 4 performed as well as a Malibu V-6 and the V-6 did as well as the Malibu's V-8, I think people still associated the bigger engines with getting more car for your money.

The Celebrity did outsell the Malibu in 1983, but I'd imagine that Malibu production was also winding down as that was its last year. And then in 1984, when auto sales were back in full force, it took off. 1985 and 1986 were also good years, but then by 1987 the Taurus, in its second year, was starting to kick its butt.

Oddly though, the Cutlass Ciera and Century seemed to sell pretty well right from the start, and sales stayed strong long after those cars were well past their prime. I don't think the X-car stigma was as bad at Buick and Olds though. The Omega never had been all that popular to begin with, and the Ciera seemed fairly upscale from it, so few people probably made the connection that they were related. And at Buick, for some reason the Skylark remained fairly immune to the bad raps that befell its siblings and it sold well right through its final year in 1985. Even if people knew the Century was related to it, I don't think that scared buyers away.

210delray

The very first Cavalier was sold as "the complete car," meaning with lots of standard features to compete with the Asian competition. Problem was, the MSRP was too high, maybe above the base Celebrity's IIRC. Americans of course were loathe to pay too high a price for small cars (and still are today for the most part). GM responded by bringing out a stripper "Cadet" version later in the extended 1982 model year.

andre1969

The very first Cavalier was sold as "the complete car," meaning with lots of standard features to compete with the Asian competition. Problem was, the MSRP was too high, maybe above the base Celebrity's IIRC.

That seemed to be a recurring theme with the domestics. Chrysler almost shot themselves in the foot when they launched the 1981 K-cars, by loading the initial models up to the gills and not offering enough base models.

And for some reason, Chevy had a bad habit of loading up the NUMMI-built Prizm. I recall seeing Prizms on the Chevy lots back in 1994-1995 with MSRP's up over $20K! In contrast, even today, I don't think I've ever seen a Corolla with an MSRP that high.

nippononly

Toyota dealers don't sell the volume models (Camry, Corolla) anywhere near sticker - they sell at invoice or lower. There is a $750-1000 cash rebate on Corolla now to clear out the old '08s, with the new model arriving. There has been a $199/mo promo lease on Camry LEs for months and months now. The only thing GM is doing right now that Toyota is not doing is the widespread use of 0%, 5 year financing.

But as noted, Toyota's January car numbers are down only because of the Corolla changeover (2 weeks of down time with no Corollas going out the factory door, and everyone anticipating the new model's arrival)

gagrice

They conveniently forget to mention that Toyota is selling its cars near msrp with normal finance rates,

I follow the Sequoia threads. The 2008 seems to be selling at just over invoice in many parts of the USA. I know my dealer was having a hard time selling the Tundra in October of last year. It just seemed interesting to me with all the talk of recession and high gas prices that the Tundra and Sequoia seemed to be selling better percentage wise than some of the gas sipping cars. I guess we will know better when the new Corolla rolls out. I did not see the sales figures for GM in January.

bumpy

My old Suburban was 46 gallons. I could go a couple months without filling.

Is it a good idea to leave the gas sitting around that long? I thought about reinstalling the saddle tanks on my GMC, but then I realized that it would take me a few months to go through 50 gallons even with its abysmal fuel economy.

andre1969

I thought about reinstalling the saddle tanks on my GMC, but then I realized that it would take me a few months to go through 50 gallons even with its abysmal fuel economy.

That's one reason why, when both of my '85 Silverado's saddle tanks went bad, I only bothered to have one replaced. Now these tanks weren't that big anyway, just 16 gallons per side. But even with just the one tank and the crappy fuel economy, sometimes that 16 gallons would last a month or more. Plus, back when I had both tanks, I'd often forget about the second one.

If I had to take it on long, extended trips regularly, I'd probably get that second tank fixed. But the longest trip I've taken in this truck since I've had it was up to Harrisburg PA and back, and one tank is enough for that.

How long can you let gasoline sit before it starts to turn bad? My '79 5th Ave went about 6 months between fill-ups. I filled it up back in July, right after coming back from the Mopar Nationals in Carlisle. Didn't fill it up again until the last week of January.

lemko

Not familiar with trucks or saddle tanks. Are there two filler caps or is it when one tank fills, there's a crossover pipe that fills the second tank? Isn't there some kind of switch to change over to the second tank when the first one is near empty?

andre1969

On my Silverado there's a tank on either side and a separate filler for each tank. Inside the cab there's a switch so that when one tank runs low, you can switch to the other.

I think Fords with dual tanks put both tanks on one side of the truck. Not sure about Dodges. I just remember the Silverado being a pain if you wanted to fill up both tanks at once because you'd have to turn it around to get to the other side.

kernick

How long can you let gasoline sit before it starts to turn bad?

You guys do know of Sta-bil? With all the different blends and seasonal formulas that would be a hard question to answer. Maybe the Sta-bil can has some general info. on how long the life is extended.

bumpy

On the GMC, each tank had its own filler: the usual one beside the driver's door for the cab tank, plus a filler in each side of the bed for the two saddle tanks outside the frame rails ahead of the wheel wells. The fuel lines from all three ran to a 3-position valve switch mounted in the center of the cab floor at the front edge of the bench seat. Presumably (the valve was busted and the saddle tanks removed by the time I got the truck), you would move the lever from left to center to right to select the three tanks in turn, which would also switch the wiring connection between the three float indicators to the gas gauge in the dash. GM didn't do factory multi-tank setups back then, so there were a variety of aftermarket implementations.

I think the Ford setups with two fillers in the driver's side bed had a long filler neck to reach the second tank on the far side.

210delray

I wasn't aware that any GM models had both in-cab and under-the-bed tanks. I thought a clean break was made between the 1972 and redesigned '73 models, with the latter only having tank(s) under the bed.

I remember seeing older Ford trucks (certainly pre-1997) with two filler doors on one side of the vehicle, one ahead of the axle and the other behind it.

lemko

I read a story about a man who bought an Auburn Speedster or some other 1930s classic that still had fuel in it from 1961! From what I read in the article, gasoline that old has an indescribable odor. What happens to gasoline after 47 years?

bumpy

I thought a clean break was made between the 1972 and redesigned '73 models

Right. The pre-'73 saddle tanks were aftermarket.

texases

What happens to gasoline after 47 years?

hmm-you'd have to think all the light ends are gone, and all the reactive chemicals (additives, aldehydes, ketones) have probably oxidized and formed some nice varnish, leaving some heavy liquid behind. Maybe even have some bacteria that can eat some of that stuff (including sulfur) make some H2S - nasty stuff!

chuckhoy

Being an organic material, gas will "rot". All the carbon chains with a vapor pressure less than the ambient pressure (14 psi) will evaporate off leaving the long-chain hydrocarbons. I would think it would become like a stinky, rotten maple syrup. Just nasty. And your fuel system would probably be shot.

1stpik

Gas can get nasty in the long term, but it also evaporates in the short term. So if you're going a long time between fills, you're losing money to evaporation.

.

snakeweasel

Only if your tank has a big gaping hole in it. Since gas tanks are closed systems there will be mighty little evaporation.

gagrice

Hopefully the gas cap is sealing it against evaporation. I know that gas loses its octane rating rather quickly just sitting. I have run some pretty old gas without any obvious engine damage. My vehicles sat for 3 weeks while I was at work for 25 years that I was on that schedule. Sometimes much longer when I was traveling elsewhere. I don't think gas that is a year old would do damage. I don't know if I would run 47 year old gas. Many lawnmowers sit months without running. Do people drain the old gas out in the Spring?

tedebear

Do people drain the old gas out in the Spring?

Actually, you're supposed to drain it before you put it away for the winter. Either that or add some fuel stabilizer to the gas.

Speaking of gas going bad, I remember an old car I left sitting in the driveway in the hot summer sun for several years. There was some gas still in the tank. By the time I got around to trying to get it running again the gas had mostly evaporated. What was left had turned into some gooey molasses type stuff that I had to scrape out of the tank.

1stpik

gas tanks are vented. If they were completely sealed, fuel wouldn't flow because of the vacuum it would create. That's how gas evaporates.

.

lemko

I did have a little trouble starting my mower the next spring. I don't know if it was stale gas or just from sitting. After priming it, I was able to start it. A friend of mine just keeps his mower running until it runs out of gas before storing it for the winter. Seems a tragic waste and not much good for the environment.

I don't drive my 1989 Cadillac Brougham all winter, but I start it up from time to time. I imagine (hope) last fall's gasoline isn't hurting it by the time I take it out in April.

imidazol97

You should add Stabil to your fuel in that car to keep it from deteriorating since the fuel stays in it so long.

I didn't drain the fuel from my Toro mower one year and the next year I had a rough time getting it to start. The new fuel seemed to redissolve the gels that were clogging the carburetor openings. After running it for a while it started better.

Next year I drained the fuel (out the carburetor bowl) and in the spring it started great with fresh fuel and clean jets. I also have run the last bit of fuel dry. The fuel drained can be put into your car's tank. Same for fuel/oil mixed for other small motors.

A problem with stale fuel is it makes it really hard to start in spring because it's often cooler than typical summer temps when I try to start these for the first time. Less volatile fuel that's lost its light faction added to colder temps make them hard to start. Same for a Cadillac.

bumpy

When I fluff the mower for the winter, I drain the gas tank back into the can, then put that gas in the car. I do try to drive (not just start) the S2000 occasionally during the winter, and put in a bit of gas now and then to dilute the older stuff.

chuckhoy

You are supposed to leave gas in mowers over the winter and add a stability additive to it. If you run the tank dry and let it sit for an extended period of time the seals will crack and leak. I have had this happen so I leave in about 1/4 to 1/5 of a tank in the mower then fill it up with fresh gas in the spring.

Most of the evaporation losses from a tank are from "breathing" losses due to temperature fluctuations in the ambient air. As the air in the tank heats and cools the gas saturated air expands and contracts. When the air heats the saturated air goes out of the tank. When the air cools and contracts, fresh air comes into the tank and some evaporation takes place to make the air saturated with gas. Repeat daily. The other main source of evaporation loss is when you fill the tank. The saturated air has to go somewhere. PV=nRT baby! That is why you see a lot of the vapor recovery systems in urban gas stations. It captures the VOC laden displacement air to reduce ozone.

imidazol97

> PV=nRT

Wouldn't putting gasoline into the tank be the Archimedes Principle in its displacement of air (with hydrocarbon vapors) rather than the Ideal Gas Law?

chuckhoy

Yes, but ideal gas law would apply if the tank was completely sealed. By adding volume to the tank while the temperature remained constant, the pressure would have to increase. Then the spigot would go flying off the car spewing gas everywhere.

imidazol97

But the tanks on autos and lawnmowers are vented. In the case of autos they are vented through a carbon canister which attracts the hydrocarbons as the tank air is passed through it (and allows air back into the tank or the gas cap does in the event of dropping temperatures). The pressure threshold to allow venting is low.

When you add gasoline to the tanks, the gas cap is off. There can be no minimal pressure buildup. The air is displaced by the volume of gasoline which you pour in. The air goes out around the filler nozzle.

1stpik

... actually a great topic for the "what if gas goes to $4" thread. I mean, what if I could capture the fumes that escape from every gas tank in town? I could re-constitute it into liquid, and I'd have tanker trucks full of the stuff!

I'd make a fortune re-selling it, and I could dub myself "green" since I'd be recycling.

I'm onto something here.

.

elias

premier-pik yours and all other modern USA gasser vehicles have closed fuel systems. the gas tank is vented to a charcoal canister that can store the fumes. it is a closed system. if the system does vent to the outside air, that is usually detectable and should trigger a "check engine" or "gas cap" dashboard light on any vehicle model year 1996 or newer.
back in the old days, gas tanks were in fact vented to the atmosphere.. . about 30 years ago...
ps - i think diesel fuel systems are closed too, even though diesel doesn't evaporate like gasoline. so i think no charcoal canister required for diesel...

dieselone

Anymore, with many formulations of gasoline having up to 10% ethanol, gas can start to go bad within a few weeks.

The owners manual from my boat states that a fuel conditioner (stabil) should be used if the fuel in the tank won't be used within 2 weeks. I pretty much run stabil in my boat year round.

I

stever

Ethanol is a real issue for boat owners with gas engines since ethanol absorbs water, and most boat gas tanks are vented. Owners with old fiberglass gas tanks have had problems with the tanks dissolving.

Fuel problems in your boat?

dieselone

Ethanol is a real issue for boat owners with gas engines since ethanol absorbs water, and most boat gas tanks are vented. Owners with old fiberglass gas tanks have had problems with the tanks dissolving.


Very true, ethanol and old fiberglass tanks don't mix at all. I was talking the service manager of the boat dealer that services my boat and he told me he's seeing a huge increase in fuel related problems and ethanol is the issue.

Yep, per coast guard regulations internal fuel tanks must be vented I believe. I've thought about getting a boat slip to keep our boat at the lake this summer, but ethanol related fuel/moisture issues are a valid concern.

bumpy

You are supposed to leave gas in mowers over the winter and add a stability additive to it.

I looked in the book, and it specifically said to drain the tank and run the engine dry if it's going to sit for more than 30 days. Your engine may vary.

texases

Given all the problems motorcyclists have starting bikes that have been sitting a year or more (plugged passages in the often multiple carbs), the run-it-dry approach would seem to have a lot to recommend it.

dieselone

Running dry isn't an option for fuel injected engines. Many motorcycles and boats including mine have FI; therefore, a constant dose of sta-bil or other type of fuel conditioner is a must.

ateixeira

Yep, the fuel pump is cooled by the fuel itself. If you run out of gas you can overheat the fuel pump.

texases

Oh yeah, forget that with anything electronic involved...I was talking about the mower advice. Now, get me a mower with an FI DOHC 4 valver - :surprise:

imidazol97

I believe my Toro book says to drain the fuel. They mean not just running it empty but dropping the bowl on the carb.

texases

I'm sure that's good advice. Now, let's take a poll - how many people you think both 1) read the mower manual, and 2) follow it? I think we're in the low single digits there...

imidazol97

I have to admit I didn't follow it sometimes. I think the 2nd year was when I had to put in fresh gas and after it stood a few hours and I tried to start it, enough goop from winter dissolved in the fresh chemicals it started. So I started doing what my neighbors (all of whom have Toros) do; they run the mower dry at idle.

stever

I've been known to run my mower dry and then pour an ounce of Sta-bil in the tank and squeeze the fuel hose a few times and even pull the starter cord a few times for good measure. None of the tricks work well for me and it's always a struggle getting the mower cranked in the spring. It's warming up here, so maybe I'll try to crank it tomorrow. Nah....

I ditched my gasser leaf mulcher last fall and when the Snapper dies, I'm buying electric (actually I'll probably continue to borrow my neighbor's old MTD rider and buy nothing, lol. No grass here anyway.)

Filled up the Subaru this afternoon for $2.96 a gallon if anyone is keeping track of regular gas prices.

snakeweasel

Filled up the Subaru this afternoon for $2.96 a gallon if anyone is keeping track of regular gas prices.

Filled up at $2.98 a gallon in -1 F temps yesterday.

texases

$2.78 in DFW

nippononly

tedebear

Just saw $2.69 as I drove home from work in St. Louis.

1stpik

.... how OPEC is cranking up the propoganda lately:

"OPEC to cut production to defend $80 oil"

"Chavez threatens to cut off U.S. oil"

I also recall some tidbit last week about yet another "problem" in Nigeria. The cartel has to do something in the face of dropping demand and growing reserves.

No doubt, they'll spew out a few more gems, see which one works, then ride it all the way to May -- with its predictable "vacation season" price hikes. Look for $3.50 by then, with some manufactured crisis soon to follow over the summer (maybe the THREAT of a hurricane in the gulf?).

If you doubt this, just remember that a year ago, gas was $2, but quickly rose back to $3 by Memorial Day. This year, we got NO price drop over the winter. So what does that tell you?

.

mickeyrom

"So what does that tell you? "

4 cylinder cars should become more popular.

lemko

People will do an awful lot less vacationing this summer and if they go somewhere, it'll be a lot closer to home.