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Comments
I think part of the problem is solid lifters, timing chain, and a thin aluminum block. All contribute a little bit to noise during startup. Haven't looked at under hood insulation, maybe it should be thicker.
Using 5W20 oil also contributes a little to a noisy cold startup.
There was a discussion on your link about the oil filter draining back into the engine. I believe there is supposed to be an anti-drain back valve in the oil filter element. Maybe someone botched a filter install.
That would be from the factory as I haven't had my first oil change yet. I'll take notice if it gets better after the first change in a few more hundred miles.
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Don't know.
You should
Amounts of torque as well as when it is available is a function of piston bore and stroke - among other things. The longer the piston stroke and/or the more reciprocating mass - the greater the troque and the more likely it is available as lower rpms. Thus the reason why engines like the antiquated old GM 3.8 is a torque monster relative to its seroius lack of HP, and also the reason why larger engines tend to have higher torque available at lower relative rpms..
There are but a few 'state of the art' 6s out there and the Hyundai 3.8- while a decent effort - is not among them. 'State of the art' being defined as continuously variable valve timing on both the intake and exhaust sides as well as being fitted with at least the capability to accomodate direct injection. TBMK the Hyundai V6 has a more rudimentary 'cam shift' valve timing on the intake side only - similar to what is on the Ford DT, for example. 'Old' technlogy.
State of the art 6s? - the Toyota 2GR, the latest iterations of the Nissan VQ, the MB 3.5, and of course the BMW straight 6s. Worthy of mention as well, the VW narrow V6 and the GM HF 3.6. Actually puts the Hyundai engine a bit far down the list, doesn't it?
From my observation, the Toyota 2GR in my own Avalon is definitively in a different class than anything available from any manufacturer excepting possibly one or two of those German engines.
I don't know why the hwy mpg # for the ES is 1 MPG less than the Avalon, they weigh essentially the same, use the same engine and trans. I will say this I couldn't tell the 4 HP difference when I ran premium in my Avalon.
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Wrongo - the engines are identical - the Lexus rating is for the premium gas 'required' , the Avalon is rated for regular gas.
You might be interested to know that the 2GR-FS (non direct injected) was originally rated at 280 hp in 2005 when it came out - new SAE standards that included some changes in testing methods (gas octanes recommended, accessory loads etc) caused the engine to be rerated in 06 to the 268 that it is today. The engine, however, never changed and nor was it changed as it was later installed in the ES.
That 280 hp rating was based on what Toyota wanted to put out there. As you can see, it was brought down to reality when the SAE standards went into affect. So...in all honesty, the 2GR was never really 280 hp.
I have never been able to tell any difference in either the FE or power in my Av either, and my manual does say 'premium fuel recommended for max performance'.
Toyota misrepresented nothing - they simply tested theitr engines to the testing rules in effect at the time, and that is what the engine earned. Honda/Acura as well as Nissan all derated when the standards were changed - look it up. It's really not that important, but people in glass houses..... :P
Bet you don't want to go back about 10 years or so and talk about all the folks ready to sue Hyundai for misstating ALL their HP ratings on all their sorry arss engines they made at the time - or do you?
Hyundai not making engines of significance...I wonder why in the world prestigous Mercedes Benz would want to get involved with poor lil Hyundai in developing a 3 cylinder engine to be used in a new vehicle by MB. I mean...Toyota being so cutting edge would seem like a lock for something like that. Hmmmmmmmmmm...maybe the good folks at MB know something you don't. :P
No. Genesis is less than 2 years old. The company turned around in 2006, so discussing anything before that date is pointless.
You don't want to go back 2 years and talk about all those Toyota sludge engines do you?
so I guess the old theory about a biiger engine SHOULD put out more Hp and torque makes no sense to you? Imagine what the 2GR would do if they made as a 3.8 - starti> at 310 hp maybe :surprise: . The 3.8 is only decent in that there are a number of engines that surpass it in terms of technology, refinement, and specific power output (HPa and/or torque per unit volume) , primarily those normally aspirated engines that I specifically noted. Yes, when Hyundai gets around to improving the valvetrain control (and eventually they should have to) the sky indeed is the limit - but for now, there simply is no comparison between the 3.8 and a number of the competitor's V6s out there. Not just Toyota's.
If the Genesis is such a superior effort (as I would be inclined to agree it is) then doesn't it deserve an engine that is something more than 'midpack' engine?
BTW simply push that 2GR HARD and then do the same in your Azera, and you should easily hear, feel, and otherwise understand the difference.
You sound like me now! I am glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. The difference between my Avalon and my Genesis is night and day in terms of the performance of the engine.
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Back in the day, bigger usually meant better, but in today's world...we all know that's not the case. Look at the Lancer EVO or the Subaru WRX. However, on the flip side of that...the Bugatti Veyron, but that's an example of paying for the bigger is better theory.
Okay...it really depends on whether or not it's direct injection or not. The 3.7 in the Infiniti is smaller than the 3.8 and it's producing 40 hp more. The 3.5 in the Lexus GS is putting out 303 hp and it's smaller than the 3.8.
Give Hyundai a chance to get the whole package right my friend. The Genesis is their first foray into the luxury segment. To be quite honest...for their first attempt, I think they did a better job than Toyota did when they rolled out the first Lexus LS 400.
Not sure what you mean by pushing the 3.8 hard and you'll notice a difference. I have pushed the 3.8 in my Azera hard, taking it up close to the 140 mph mark and the engine wasn't even whining. I can only imagine that the Genesis would be even better being pushed as it's the the rwd advantage.
Allmet's inference in his orig post was that Toyota overstated the 2GR's HP as part of some nefarious scheme to defraud customers - an absurd contention.
Hyundai DID defraud its customers not all that long ago by intentionally overstating their power numbers ostensibly so they could sell more cars - and DID pay millions restitution. If you want to read about it, I can provide a link or two? :P
PS I happen to agree with your contention that Hyundai is cleaning up its act - but do you really think that the American carbuyer can forget what happened a few years ago - or even worse before that?
The only ones that really mention it are those that were affected or those that were shopping Hyundai vehicles around that time. That is actually one incident that came and went with minor fanfare.
My inference wasn't that they intentionally mis-stated hp ratings...they had their own rating system that gave them higher than realistic numbers. When a universal system was employed...that made it evident. Sorta like the auto electonics industry employing a universal system for stating output wattages of components (CEA-2006) since some companies had their own system for calculating outputs.
Toyota wasn't using some underhanded scheme to dupe the public..as long as they were going by THEIR calculations, they were putting out what they felt to be correct. Funny how a system is put in place that's not theirs and all the sudden, the numbers drop 12 hp. Hey...it is what it is, but now the playing field is leveled in terms of how hp is to be calculated...everyone's using the same method and formula.
Folks can talk about before that, but please do so with the reality that Toyota and Honda shared the same rough beginnings. What was the affectionate term imports were known as back the...[non-permissible content removed] Crap? They weren't called that because they were setting standards of quailty, that's for sure buddy.
I guess you must believe some silly press releases then - because had they been following the same standards at the time as the J3 you mentioned then they would never have been in any trouble!
As far as MB wanting to get together with Hyundai in developing and producing some sort of econobox engine - it only makes sense - some German engineering combined with some Korean production costs...
Wrong again
you can't say something like this - not on a board populated by 'swoopy H fanboys'!
As I understand you are enjoying you new Genesis - congrats on a well thought out purchase - but you are running the risk of being 'outted' for such heresy!
Now talk about a ridiculous suggestion - the LS, lest you forget, redefined the whole luxury car segment, forced the Germans to clean up their snobby acts, was a pheonomenal sales success and further established a whole new benchmark. The reason why the Genesis will never be able to do all this is because it is still being identified as a Hyundai, not an asset when you are trying to get somebody to spend $40k or so of their hard earned $.
Batteries in gas/electric hybrids are covered for 10 years and 150k miles in all the CAFE states today. As for electronics, the Genesis' expensive electronics aren't covered for 10/100 now, so why would you expect electronics in a Genesis hybrid to be covered that long?
Thanks! Its a good car. However, there are some things the Avalon does better and vice versa. I just figured I would point them out!
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The smart ones can forget. The stubborn ones that are stuck in the past probably can't forget. I am not interested in buying a Pony. I'm interested in a Genesis, so why do you keep dragging up the past? Unlike people, cars don't pass on genes, so the cars of 5 years ago are irrelevant.
Hyundai isn't "cleaning", but has already "cleaned" up their act.
No way batteries will last 10 years. I doubt all of them will even make 5 years.
The current Avalon is a good dependable car (sort of like wearing sensible shoes). Its' one glaring fault is that it just happens to be butt-ugly while the Genesis is one of the best looking cars around.
My hope is that, if the Avalon is continued, it becomes more attractive in the future.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Did you mean CARB, by any chance?
That is exactly what Hyundai is on the verge of doing. By continually improving the overall quality, benchmark for standard equipment, and access to higher-level options within the "middle" segment (as opposed to economy or full-luxury), Hyundai will redefine this segment. And while they are at it, they will influence the entry-level luxury segment in ways that MB, BMW, and Lexus fanatics will bemoan for years to come.
the problem I still see is the brand name - the Genesis may be good enough (the jury's still out) that it may gain some sort of acceptance to those that might ordinarily consider something like a LS but even if that happens isn't redefining 'Hyundai' something entirely different?
One on the reasons that the Lexus gained such immediate acceptance and success was because they could distance it from the more mundane 'Toyotas' (new name and new dealers) and because that association (Lexus = Toyota) was definitely an asset at the time. So let's assume for a moment that the Genesis is every bit as much 'car' as the '89 LS ( a big stretch IMO) . What then happens to the other 2/3 of that success equation?
Don't believe that Hyundai- on the basis of improving their products only over the last 5 years or so- has anywhere near the market positiion (and quality perception) that Toyota did 20 years ago. Which is the rub....
Time to put this to bed and quit beating a dead horse. It's not 1980 any more Captain. People are accepting of Asian brand names, and people are more pragmatic about their purchases. Smart people don't care a bit about 1990's quality if today's quality is great. Quality is not genetic. Thinking people know that today's fine Hyundai products are not tainted by products of 20 years ago.
No, it sure is'nt - but it is a whole lot closer to 1995 than perhaps you would care to admit. It is Hyundai's products of the mid 80s (and well into the 90s )that has given 'Korean' cars its bad rep - you are way way too early with '1980'.
Whether you'd like to concede the point or not, there does remain a significant number of carbuyers out there that have a helluva a problem spending even 20 large on a Korean made vehicle - never mind 40.
You do make a good point though that 'thinking' people learn to look past a label, certainly true, I guess until that person does enough 'thinking' to understand that there are a number of 'more expensive' choices that are actually cheaper.
So the question becomes: ignoring cost, which vehicle is most appealing? And it's there that perceived quality (including but not limited to perceived mechanical and/or electrical reliability) enters the equation. Would I "feel better" with a more established brand? This isn't about ego, so much as it's about the idea that the car is an "investment." A depreciating investment, almost by definition, but an "investment" nonetheless. In that sense, then, the purchase of the Korean brand becomes a decision that is perceived to be riskier. This, in turn, leads to lower resale value.
But, you insist, "I always keep my cars for at least 100k miles, so resale value does not matter to me." Well, fine, unless some idiot runs a traffic light and totals your one year old Genesis. Then resale value matters to you, and your insurance company, and your bank too.
One compound word: rip-off.
Can't imagine that'll it should cost any more ( and maybe even less) to have a Korean car serviced than the Japanese one - and further if it becomes a covered warranty issue the Korean car would have the advantage there as well. In terms of unscheduled maintanence, while the Japanese models do show slightly better reliability stats, these things happen less than they used to - even to Korean cars. Heck, if you have enough faith that our tax money is being well spent, you might even look at a D3 car - they might even be cheaper to buy than a Hyundai right now.
Where the Japanese cars do have an advantage, is in residual values and not so much in maintenance or repair costs. . If you are really going to keep your car for 100k or more, I would tell you that initial purchase price as well as satisfying; what you like are easily the top 2 considerations.
PS Automobiles are awfully difficult to defend as 'investments' unless of course you want to use adjectives like bad and worse.
It does when the Korean car has a timing belt and the Japanese one has a chain! But that's not relevant to the Genesis discussion. . .
Since 2006, Hyundai has been using timing chains instead of belts (at least on their V-6 engines). Another reason I upgraded from my '02 Sonata (which had a belt) to my '06 Azera.
To be honest, it's hard to say which is less expensive to service between Korean & Japanese cars. I mean...if you're talking Lexus, Acura & Infiniti...it could get pricey. But servicing prices between Toyota, Honda, Nissan & Hyundai are pretty close.
Insurance, while it can be the countries largest scam, it's a comfort to know you've got it (with a reputable company) and even nicer when you don't have to use it. Too bad you don't get much in return for not using it though. :sick: