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Please, understand...I'm not bashing Hyundai in any way, for God's sake...
No, you're not bashing. But you're wrong... or just out of date. Some examples:
Toyota 2.4L I4 (Camry): 158 hp, 21 mpg city, 31 mpg highway (5AT)
Hyundai 2.4L I4 (Sonata): 175 hp, 22 mpg city, 32 mpg highway (5AT)
Hyundai is superior to Toyota in power and fuel efficiency.
Toyota 3.5L V6 (Camry, Avalon): 268 hp, 19 mpg city, 28 mpg highway
Hyundai 3.8L V6 (Genesis): 290 hp, 18 mpg city, 27 mpg highway
Hyundai is superior to Toyota in power, but gets 1 mpg less in a much heavier car.
Sorry, I don't see a signficant difference in Toyota's current engine technology compared to Hyundai's, based on how they perform.
Now tell me...which is superior???
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
I'm not saying that Hyundai hasn't made strides...they have and huge ones at that. The one point I will agree with you on is the stigma that is still attached to the Hyundai brand. The sad thing is...most folks that have a negative opinion about a Hyundai car right now...haven't or won't take the time to go check one out because I think they're afraid they may be forced to change their mind...and in their minds, that would make them look foolish (JUST....my opinion). Believe me...I was skeptical when bought my '02 Sonata. After my experience with it...I'm a believer and that belief has been further cemented with the experience I've been having with my Azera.
So Toyota's Lexus IS350 is about 5% more powerful than the Genesis 3.8L, but the Genesis gets 8% better FE on the highway. That looks to me like the Genesis has the edge there. In the city, the Lexus has the edge, since the FEs are the same even though the Lexus has 5% more power.
Also the IS 350 is 10% more expensive than the Genesis 3.8. So the extra value in terms of power and FE doesn't match the price premium.
I know you want to win the debate, but currently the 2GR engine made by Toyota is one of the best engines out there. To say the Hyundai engines aren't quite up to snuff is not a terrible thing at all...just gives them something to shoot for.
Some people feel that paying that extra 10% for the Lexus assures that you get what you pay for. Me personally, I'll save the 10% and get a couple tanks of gas and enjoy a really nice night on the town to boot!
We'll just have to wait and see if the real world mileage figures for the Hyundai 3.8L match up with the EPA's.
Also, let's not forget that the 2GR-FSE achieves 5% more power with 8% less of the displacement.
There is something you have to understand and that's the current 2GR-FSE is Toyota's first iteration (the Genesis 3.8L is Hyundai's second, if not third) and that engine is very under-tuned. My source in Lexus tells me that with a bit of more aggressive tuning that it can put out 350hp easily (without increasing the displacement!!).
By the way, when would the 3.8 get direct injection?
You could buy two really big tanks of gas plus a really nice night on the town with that extra 10% ($3,300).
All I was musing is, what would the Genesis 3.8 be able to do with direct injection, as on the 2GR-FSE? I haven't seen any word yet on when that will happen, although I've seen rumors about the V8 getting direct injection.
During our visit to Hyundai HQ, company brass forthrightly addressed several pertinent issues about the new car for us. The new V8 doesn't feature direct-injection technology to attain its lofty horsepower figures. Is D.I. a future possibility? Absolutely, but this is only the first iteration of the all-new 4.6-liter Tau engine family and it's meant to be relatively affordable to build, and it already features an elevated 6,500-rpm redline, fully variable valve timing, a variable-volume intake plenum, cast stainless-steel exhaust manifolds and ULEV-II level emissions. There's more to come.
Also, just let me remind you that a better comparison in both size and weight to the Genesis 3.8L would be the GS350, which also has a 2GR-FSE with 303 hp but not tuned as aggressively as the IS350. According to EPA the mileages for the GS350 are: 19/27/22
Based on eight years of driving Hyundais in the real world, on a daily basis, I am confident the Genesis will have no problem exceeding its EPA numbers also. I've had no problem doing that on any other Hyundai (I4 or V6) I've driven.
No. You feel that Toyota has a big edge over Hyundai in technology. I feel it isn't that great. You mentioned the 3.8, and while the displacement seems a bit less efficient (larger with the same output) then the 3.5 in the Highlander, I thought iit drove just as well and handled as well.
As for the price rising, I think it will continue to do so. When they are on a level where they can truely be accepted as playing with the "big boys" they won't have to offer all of the equipment at a lower price, because it would be less profitable to do so. Maybe you just can't see that happening because it's never occured before. I can't recall anyone rising from "disposable cars" (not much more than 10 years ago) to cars as respectable as Toyotas. Toyotas and Hondas were almost always respected, and never considered cheap.
I can't think of any examples of any of the Sonata's competitors expanding dramatically price wise. I don't think anyone has done it more than Hyundai.
GS350 3.5L V6 303hp 19/27 (Gas: Premium)
Genesis V8 4.6L V8 368hp 17/25 (Gas: Regular Unleaded) | 375hp Premium
GS460 4.6L V8 342hp 17/24 (Gas Premium)
Based on the above, I wouldn't call Toyota superior at all (note the defn. of superior folks). It may have slight advantage in the V6, but clearly Hyundai has the right formula going with its first V8 and Theta I4 (i.e. 2.4L 175hp). FWIW, the Genesis is almost a 2 ton car, so the return of horsepower rating and fuel efficiency are very respectable. Also, the 3.8L V6 in the Gen coupe pumps out 306 using regular and 313hp with premium fuel, IIRC.
I thought GS460's 8-spd would have helped on the F/E...
But if someone wants to pay a lot more money for a GS with a lower-powered, less-economical V8 instead of a Genesis, and they want to believe it has a superior engine to the Hyundai, it's their money and it's a free country.
I wouldn't be surprised if Hyundai starts using DI on their V6's within a year or two. My guess is that a DI version of the 3.8L V6 would produce somewhere between 325 to 340 horsepower, and 280 to 290 lb-ft of torque, based on the % gains other engines have gotten from DI. As far as fuel-economy between manufacturers is concerned, it varies slightly between models in most cases. Consider this, however: Hyundai's volume-seller sedan gets better overall FE than Toyota's volume-seller.
The fact that Toyota sells several times more vehicles doesn't impress me, since my experience with late-models from both manufacturers has shown me that the Hyundai vehicles are actually more solidly-built overall.
To whom said that Toyota and Honda were always respected and never cheap; let me remind you that both of these companies almost went belly up here in the US for it's craptacular reliability and continuous problems with their vehicles. It took a long time but they came around to doing things right. - Their brand image didn't turn around overnight.
Hyundai's have had a similar experience, except Hyundai has turned around quicker than both of the above mentioned. Hyundai's image will and has drawn attention, even to Toyota's president - To say that he's not concerned about the Big 3 or anyone else except Hyundai - That says ALOT!!!
So whether people are in denial or aren't willing to except that Hyundai is taking names and are beating the competition with what they offer for less, including reliability, fit and finish and their top rated customer service. They'll never be respected. But that doesn't matter, cause the more people cover their eyes to see who's climbing the ladder the quickest, more Hyundai's are being driven today than anyone ever cared to imagine.
Last time I checked, Toyota has had more recalls this year and last year than any other car manufacturer. Yes, we can go on and on, but really.... what's it worth?
The Azera managed to sneak a few sales from the Sonata.
Wow, this place has devolved into some fainboy network, with all kinds of spectacular and unsubstantiated claims about what Hyundai has (and hasn't) managed to accomplish.
I'll recognize facts, but some of you are so delusional, you still can't seem to get your heads around the fact that Hyundai probably has the worst resale value of any vehicle sold in the U.S.
Now THAT'S an accomplishment.
The Azera managed to sneak a few sales from the Sonata.
Wow, this place has devolved into some fainboy network, with all kinds of spectacular and unsubstantiated claims about what Hyundai has (and hasn't) managed to accomplish.
I'll recognize facts, but some of you are so delusional, you still can't seem to get your heads around the fact that Hyundai probably has the worst resale value of any vehicle sold in the U.S.
Now THAT'S an accomplishment.
And yet you all claim that Toyota owners, etc, are in denial.
That is rich.
That is because despite making good cars they must offer rebates on every model they sell, just like the "big" 2.5. The Genesis will be no different. WIthin six - nine months after the initial surge wears off the rebates / 0 % financing / lease specials will arrive.
FYI here is a sampling of the current rebates:
2009 Sonata $1500 (a newly redesigned model)
2008 Sonata $3000
2008 Azera $2000
2008 Elantra $1500
even the "hot" Santa Fe has $2000
I guess what I am saying is the resale isn't as horrid as it seems because the actual transaction prices are lower. Once (if it ever happens) Hyundai can sell these machines w/o rebates most of the year the resale won't be nearly as bad.
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Unsubstantiated claims? Let's see, take my previous post for example, Genesis vs. GS, all of which were facts and readily available on the world wide web, either at manufacturer's webpage, or EPA.
Please, amuse us and post some details instead of going around and asserting nonsense.
I'll recognize facts, but some of you are so delusional, you still can't seem to get your heads around the fact that Hyundai probably has the worst resale value of any vehicle sold in the U.S.
This is off-topic but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and give you the right answer - ready? You are wrong, it's not a fact, far from it, actually. Oh, fact and probably don't mix well together
Please, can we get back to discussions of the Genesis? Thanks
As for the rebates, lease/financing specials, everyone's got them. Hyundai's isn't the only one having to rely on them to sell vehicles. These days, every automaker has had the need, especially, to use those discounts to get a few more sales.
Back to Genesis...
GS350 3.5L V6 303hp 19/27 (Gas: Premium)
You forgot that the 2GR-FSE is 3.5L and Genesis V6 is 3.8L
Genesis V8 4.6L V8 368hp 17/25 (Gas: Regular Unleaded) | 375hp Premium
GS460 4.6L V8 342hp 17/24 (Gas Premium)
Both the 2GR-FSE and 2UR-FSE are the first iterations and severely under-tuned.
That being said, the new Tau V8 is definitely impressively number-wise.
You would understand, I never said the Toyota engines weren't impressive, but rather both Hyundai and Toyota applications are excellent. The whole point of the comparison I put up - Hyundai is catching up very very fast, faster than a lot of people would want to admit (not you but to some people
Yes the Genesis V6 3.8L is 0.3L larger than the Toyota 3.5, but the output is regardless respectable 290hp on the Genesis (18/27, regular gas); 306hp in the Genesis coupe (313 with premium fuel). Frankly, the 0.3L displacement difference is not worth aruging death over, in my opinion
FWIW, the Genesis V6 3.3L (which is not available for the North American market) puts out 264hp; the 3.3L V6 in the Sonata gets 249hp.
Like Backy said earlier, the Lambda V6s *3.3 & 3.8) are very flexible. I don't think we've seen its highest potential yet.
Really? Because the Nissan VQ35HR in the G35 has 306hp, with little tweaks here and there plus 0.2L extra liter the VQ37HR gains 24hp, that's 12hp per liter for your information.
Using that as the guideline the non-DI 2GR-FE should put out around 305hp (on regular gas) if its displacement is increased by 0.3L and the 2GR-FSE would reach over 340hp easily.
Still think that 0.3L is not important?
Let me just make it clear, throughout my posts I never once stated that the Toyota engines are "superior" than the Hyundai counterparts. I was merely comparing them with the cold hard specs and facts.
That said, a small number of people have driven the North American spec Genesis. Given the favorable reviews already from the Korean spec, the NA spec should peform similar or better results, especially with the suspension being re-tuned for the NA market.
Hyundai is setting up ride-and-drive events across the US prior to the car officially lands in showroom so more people will get to preview the Genesis sedan.
GS460 4.6L V8 342hp 17/24 (Gas Premium)
Both the 2GR-FSE and 2UR-FSE are the first iterations and severely under-tuned.
You forgot to mention that the Tau is in its first iteration also.
Is that true?
Will they be on allocation, especially the V8?
Are they being staged in Portland for National distribution !!
I also understand that it looks like the 80%-20% rule for engines. 20% being the V8.
Is that because of V8 availability !!
I would think that that the 80%-20% rule also applies for the way they will be ordered.
20% being the V8 with all options , any thoughts !
Sorry to change the format here and ask some questions, but I just want to drive one and seriously consider buying the V8 with all options.
Will the sound system support the iPod?
Is the display touch screen?
Thanks guys
It supports iPod. With the technology package, the interface is pretty much identical to iPod. Think of it as an iPod on the car nav screen.
The display is not touch screen. But the dialing thingy is pretty easy to use. I didn't need a user guide of any kind to learn in 10 minutes. To me pressing the dial to choose whatever on the screen was a bit hard. It might have been better if they made that button a bit softer.
Discover Genesis Tour
Hands-on previews of the all-new Hyundai Genesis luxury sedan, along with opportunities to be among the first to drive it, are coming to locations across America. Check back for more details.
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Please know your history, Toyotas and Hondas were quite laughable when they first ventured onto U.S. soil. They were looked at with the same disdain that Hyundai has dealt with. Trust me, it wasn't always a pretty picture for them.
As far as Sonata's competitors were price rose dramatically...the Camry.
Oh, I understand that. I'm not old enough to know first hand what the public thought when Japenese automakers first arrived on US soil, but from what I've learned, though they weren't highly respected at first, the build quality was good. However, when Hyundai arrived, the cars were considered disposable. Until recently (2-3 years ago) Hyundai quality wasn't as good as its competitors. This is why I say they never had to rise in stature from the cheap economy car to a respectable brand. But they did have to rise in stature because people were accustomed to buying american cars and nothing else.
Comparing the Camry and Sonata by price, the price on the Camry can't have gone up too much, as the two are separated by 800 for the base model, and 2800 for a topline model (with no added options). I know this doesn't take into account equiption similarity, but at a glance, the two aren't priced too far apart. The Sonata wasn't always that close to the Cmary, though.
The first V8's were available to be ordered this week. It is a 2-3 month turnaround for the car to hit the ground since it is built in Korea and then has to be put on a boat.
Also, yes, the cars are going to go through the Portland port and then get put on rail to go to the Texas and New England hubs for truck transport (didn't I post all of this already?). Point being, if you are on the West Coast, you should get the cars sooner than the rest of the country.
As far as the option packages are concerned, I think that you will be in luck and be able to get what you want. The only two ways to get a V8 are the base at $38k and the tech pkg at $42k. As the guy that orders the cars for my dealership I am here to tell you that 100% of my V8's will be tech pkgs. Why? Well, if a person has decided that they are going to part with $38k for a Hyundai, then they are prob the kind of person that wants as much content as they can get for their money. The other $4k only represents about a 10% price bump and in terms of financing only $60-$80 a month. I think that most dealers will feel the same way.
One warning though. Hyundai is taking a look at what delalers are ordering and then restricting certain colors and packages if they feel that too many are going into the mix. For example on the first run of V6's there was an abundance of Pearl White paint and the tech packages ordered. On the second run you could not order that color or any with the tech pkg. Point is that if you choose to order a car you might want to be sure that your delaer can get what you ask/pay for!!!
Whew!! Shoot over any other questions you may have.
I have seen all the pricing packages but am anxious to see if the dealers price these at, above or below the MSRPs...
BLACK NOIR PEARL
WHITE SATIN PEARL
PLATINUM METALLIC
TITANIUM GRAY METALLIC
STERLING BLUE METALLIC
SAPPHIRE BLUE PEARL
CABERNET RED PEARL
CHAMPAGNE BEIGE METALLIC
All of these will have Black, Brown, and Beige interior color options in some combination. For now, I would actually have to be in the order system to see which colors offer which interiors, but you get the point.
As for pricing, that will of course, be up to each dealer. I intend to price ours at MSRP and see where the market is. If we don't have much interest then, of course, the prices will come down. But hey, if there is a waiting list, then supply and demand will be at work there as well. There is only going to be about $2200-$2500 markup from invoice to sticker in these cars anyway. Which for a Hyundai is pretty generous. Don't get me started down that path though. My point is that MSRP would be a fair price to charge based on the amount of training and work that I think a salesperson will have to do in order to sell this car. Most sales people are going to be paid 25%-30% of the profit over invoice. So you are talking about a max of $750 commission per sale. I think that the expectation from most people is going to be that their dealer and salesperson will be there to accomodate them for service appointments and questions that they have down the road. It's just my thinking that the guys at my store that will be authorized to sell this car need to have some reward for the work that they will be putting in. Yeah, I'm the jerk boss that harps on product knowledge and product presentation, so I will have my people in training classes and off of the lot to get the opportunity to sell thins product.
Sorry for all the extra info. Let me know if you want to know anything else.
I am really interested in the car and debating between this and an Avalon Limited. Do you know what Huyndai will offer for leasing packages? I have always bought before and never leased but I am losing my company car and didn't plan on having to buy a vehicle on short notice - so I am going to do a three year lease and then buy something new in three years.
The Avalon Limited is pretty compelling from a lease perspective because of the high re-sale and corresponding low monthly rate. I would much prefer a loaded V-6 Genesis but I am not sure how banks will handle computing the residual value on a new Hyundai model. I am hoping that Hyundai offers a good lease option that is competitive with the Avalon to make my decision easier...
If I were to take a guess, my thought would be that the Avalon would have a better lease payment based on the factors that you mentioned. Also, with the experience that we have with the treatment of the Veracruz, I am going to assume that Hyundai is going to leave the dealers to go it alone in terms of the pricing. It was only within the last couple of months that we got any help on the Veracruz.
As far as the question about the internet specials, I'm not really sure what the question even is. I did not mean to say that every dealer was going to be at or over MSRP and that you could not negotiate price. I was probably just rambling a little about the markup part. There will be dealers at every price point on this car. At, over, and under MSRP and invoice. I just think that it's kind of crazy not to try and make a reasonable profit on any product that you sell in any business. That was all I was saying. Thanks for the question.