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:sick:
anyway, if the 328i and the 3.8 Genesis are the baselines, and both cars have similar performance, although the 328i is more efficient (230hp/200tq compared to 290/264, but about 350 less lbs), then the 335i engine really overachieves compared to the the Tau engine. the power to weight/torque to weight numbers are very close (much closer than the 328i and 3.8 Genesis), but the performance numbers are considerably different. the real issue might be traction-related, since the quarter mile trap speeds are much closer than the actual finish times (around 105.x to 103.something).
i have now completely digressed from my original point that while the V8 Genesis is only $2,000 more than the V6, it is apparently well worth it considering the upgrades (leather, brakes, engine, transmission, steering). however, this particular engine upgrade seems not like much of an upgrade compared to other engine upgrades from other car manufacturers. you probably get as much of an upgraded performance (acceleration) from an Acura TL-S over the base TL which is just a slightly larger V6, as you do from the 4.6 Tau than the 3.8 Lambda in the Genesis.
generally positive if not sugar-coated review.
This is a luxury sedan, mixed with some sports (by way of the suspension setup), don't be confused as a pure sports sedan - in which the 335 is, and a different breed of animal. FWIW, the Tau 4.6 is a very good first try by Hyundai, 375hp, and more importantly 17/25 MPG - this is as good as you can get. Some of the V6 in this class comes in with the same, or lower fuel economy rateings, let alone a V8.
As for the 0-60 time in the V8: 5.6- 5.7 secs from some of the reviews I've seen - why are we making it as a bad thing? Yeah, let's put this and race it with the 3er. Anyway, everyone having driven the V8 so far had nothing but good things to say about it.
Personally, I can't wait to drive the Genesis. This is the first Hyundai where you can truly say they've executed the car right on just about every area - name it, done deal.
That's why I'm on the fence about either a Sonata or a M35. It may seem like an odd choice, but if I go big, I can get a loaded M35, which is Consumer Reports #1 Ranked Luxury Car - they even rank it higher, with a near perfect score (98 out of 100, I believe) than the BMW 7 Series, Lexus LS460, and Mercedes S550 - all cars costing $30,000 to $60,000 more - for a mere $1,430 more than a loaded Genesis V-6.
And I wouldn't just rely on that statement by CR or any other publication. I've driven the M35. I have also driven or driven in both the S Class and & 7 Series, too. The Infiniti is better, IMO, also.
The Infiniti is a proven quantity, with an amazing interior, great handling, available in AWD, with an excellent reliability rating, and the dealers give you true white glove treatment. Why would I not buy it over a Genesis when it's merely 3% more?
That's why the Genesis is less the value proposition people first thought, rightly or wrongly. My local dealers don't even have any in stock, not that I'm seriously considering purchasing one.
Whatever else that can be said, one thing I know for sure - Hyundai is terrible at launching a supposed premium car, and will be taken less and less seriously the longer they allow the types of experiences I'm reading about here happen.
I want Hyundai to succeed, because competition is good, and fear that they're going to fall flat on their face with this car.
My local dealers don't even have any in stock, not that I'm seriously considering purchasing one."
Rotary, just do yourself a favor, buy the Infiniti and stop trashing the Genesis. You claim you want the Genesis to succeed, but all you've been doing is poo pooing it. Every single post of yours has been to disparage the car or the company. It's obvious you have an axe to grind here. Seriously, I half suspect you're an Infiniti salesman come to discourage people from getting the Genesis in lieu of the M35/M45.
i hate to sound like a broken record, but the real Genesis value is in the V8. Infiniti, Lexus, Audi, BMW, Mercedes all charge between $6-10k more just for the larger engine. heck, even Cadillac charges over $2,000 more just for a direct injection version of their V6. Hyundai could have charged about $1,500 less for the V6 and $1,500 more for the V8, and the V8 would still be a good value compared to its competition. the upgraded leather and brakes/rotors alone are worth around $1,500, and $3,000 isn't unreasonable for 85 more horsepower. the V6 then would be more of a no-brainer at $31,500 (MSRP).
incidentally, when the M35 first came out, it was an excellent value compared to the competition. the M35 (not the M45) and the Acura RL (Acura is still considered a value luxury brand, Infiniti somewhat, and Lexus used to be) are probably the only cars in the segment (arguably premium luxury) that can touch the Genesis' value (the V6). yet no one's buying the RL, even when almost fully loaded 2008s are selling at $41,000. $44,000 with the overpriced tech package (navigation, rear camera, adaptive lights). i guess you could throw in the Cadillac CTS as well, which sells fully loaded and with almost identical equipment as the Genesis for around $41,000, $43,000 with direct injection (2008 tmv).
but at the end of the day, my suggestion is to buy what you really want (or need, in the case for the Sonata) and live with the results.
I may have strong opinions, but maybe they're more accurate than you wish to acknowledge.
Or maybe not.
But I don't have any ulterior motives.
To quote your previous posts from the past two weeks:
"I just knew the suspension would be the weak link in the car, and all three reviews, plus one video (the Korean one) unanimously confirm that."
"I'll recognize facts, but some of you are so delusional, you still can't seem to get your heads around the fact that Hyundai probably has the worst resale value of any vehicle sold in the U.S."
"I predict that within a year or less, Hyundai will be tossing heavy incentives on the hoods of these cars, and the people who purchased out of the gate close to MSRP will be cursing Hyundai. "
"$35k to $42k Genesis (Genesi?). Hyundai has lost its mind."
"Hyundai's timing on the Genesis couldn't be worse."
"Hyundai screwed up. I figured they would. I won't even bother test driving it now, unless it's purely out of curiosity."
If you really feel that way about Hyundai and the Genesis, why do you keep posting here? So that you can tell us about how great the M35 is and how cool your Infiniti dealer was to you?
Oh yeah, in response to your claim above, according to kbb, the worst resale values come from:
http://searchchicago.suntimes.com/autos/tops/649868,srch-tops-08resalebottoms.ar- ticle
1. Suzuki
2. Kia
3. GMC
4. Mercury
5. Dodge
6. Chrysler
7. Lincoln
8. Jeep
9. Ford
10. Jaguar
Do you see Hyundai on that list? So who is delusional now?
Hyundai "history" repeats itself. Think back, they screwed up the Azera launch too.
Adjustable pedals? Power folding outside mirrors? (think Azera)
Everything about the Genesis, and the way it's being sold, priced and distributed is splendid. Kudos Hyundai. Bravo.
I will no longer post in this thread and I'd humbly suggest that others with any negative (and presumably false) observations about anything concerning the Genesis do the same.
Hell, rename this thread the 'happy happy joy joy 2009 Hyundai Genesis' thread.
Peace out.
Your Infiniti dealer is literally giving away a loaded M35 to you, given there are no units left on the lot, which by the way MSRP for mid 50K, and invoice can't be that much lower, for an out-the-door price in the low 40s. If I was in your situation, I would bite on the deal right away.
Too bad no Infiniti dealers in my area are that generous enough to give me a car for 25% off. I have never heard of such a discount on the M, but hey you learn something new every day...
As I mentioned before. the product would not matter. Marketing and on-time shipment might be a problem though. and IMO HMA is making all the efforts it can for the Genesis launch. Recall press events for selective auto journalist in Korea and Santa Babara in CA. There were no such special cares for American journalists by Hyundai at the time of the new car launch as I recall.
Hyundai USA has to go all out on this, especially considering the amount of dough they have planned on the launch and through the end of the year.
But the Infiniti G35 I am still somewhat considering is not the 'loaded' version. It is the base version, which is pretty loaded as it is.
I don't know it's under invoice or not. It's about 7k off of MSRP, I believe. It's about the same price as a loaded Genesis V-6, but doesn't have a few of the options the Genesis has at 40 grand, and is about $1,450 more.
For organ type pedals, is it even possible to make it adjustable?
Do lexus, bmw or mb come with that too?
I thought organ type was the reason for telescoping steering wheel.
FWIW, I contacted the nearest Infiniti dealer, asked for the best price they would offer me on a loaded M35, ~53K.
For a car your dealer has no available units, 7K off MSRP? Wow. This is Infiniti?
PS: couldn't resist this forum - addictive, isn't it?
I have to agree with the views that HMA is horrid at new car lanuches. Most mfrs will advertise a new model to the point of overkill and then have some hype and/or waiting lists in place when the units start to hit the ground. Hyundai always does the opposite. They put a commercial on during the super bowl. In Feburary. Then we get cars in July. No marketing and no hype. The idea of a premium drivers car to me would be to have people waiting at the dealership when the cars get there. Not have people looking at a half-a**ed roll out and then wanting to know where the most popular item (white w/tech) is.
By the way, a 2009 Sonata 4cyl auto invoices at around $19400. Less a $500-$600 holdback and a $2000 rebate. That looks like a $16800 deal if you get the dealer to strip out all front end money. If you can buy one for under $15k, uh, go get it yesterday.
As to the Genesis launch, the posts that quote a $80 million ad budget are accurate. Hopefully by August when we have all of the packages on the ground and V8 cars around the corner then the masses will be aware of the car. Most people that I speak to have never heard of this ride. Matter of fact our shirt guy thought that the Genesis was a different brand of car.
FWIW, I contacted the nearest Infiniti dealer, asked for the best price they would offer me on a loaded M35, ~53K.
For a car your dealer has no available units, 7K off MSRP? Wow. This is Infiniti?
PS: couldn't resist this forum - addictive, isn't it?
It's not a 'loaded' M35, as I've said three times now. Also, there are two of us, in this very thread, that have gotten written quotes of basically under 42k. I have no idea what you're talking about with a 53k loaded Infiniti M35. I said the base M35 is already pretty much 'loaded.'
The MSRP on the M35 I was quoted is $43,900.
Edit - Okay, you know it wasn't me who said anything about a loaded G35. Thanks.
Joe, you are right that I bashed the suspension of the Genesis based on articles I've read, when that's unfair. I haven't even drive it yet. I won't make any more comments about the Genesis until and unless I drive one.
Jeff, I posted the name of the dealership that quoted me the Sonata GLS price earlier in this thread. Backy asked me to, and I obliged. And yes, I qualify for a lot of the rebates. They have ads all the time in the Dallas Morning News, and are located in Terrell, TX. See here: http://shopping.dallasnews.com/ROP/ads.aspx?advid=320706&adid=6559203&type=
I really have no reason to bash Hyundai for anything but a miserable product launch regarding the Genesis.
I am wondering what kind of deals these low-priced dealers will offer on the Genesis once supply ramps up?
But anyway, cross-shopping a base Sonata with a car like the Genesis is, uhm, interesting to say the least.
Some here wondered why it was going to take Hyundai USA such a long time to release the Genesis after the Super Bowl ad teasers, which by the way, the results of the ads were terrific. I'd give your Merc GLK's release schedule, this is nothing new.
On the other hand, now the product is here at some dealers, it's still bad news. To my knowledge, Hyundai USA has always done some small scale pre-sale prior to the launch of a vehicle. I'd say let's wait until the product is officially launched and then make a proper determination.
The MSRP on the M35 I was quoted is $43,900.
But how can you compare a base M35 to a loaded Genesis V6? By the way, the Genesis V6 starts at 33K, including shipping/delivery.
I'm a Nissan 'Spy,'
I corrected myself, and you should too. Look back in the posts, I never once called you a spy, that wasn't me.
I was comparing the base M35 to the loaded Genesis V6, which I admitted, has more features than the M35. So in that respect, you're right. The base M35 and base Genesis are 10k apart.
This will be my last post regarding the Genesis. I have nothing to add that's constructive because I haven't driven it, and it would be unwise to make any more comments, good or bad, about the car itself, unless I did.
As a sceptic of "crazy" pricing (by that I mean complete money losing deals), I would contend that in MOST cases the selling dealer is making most of the loss back on finance reserve (rate markup) or underbooking a trade (appraisal at $5000, allowing $4000 e.g.). Also, when I was in Las Vegas last year, I saw a Planet Hyundai ad that had prices on Accent and Elantra that I couldn't believe. When I asked the Hyundai reps what the story was they informed me that Nevada has no limit to what you can charge for a doc fee. So you get an Accent for $5995, but you pay a $3000-$4000 doc fee!!
Anyway, there are just some things that I feel like are mitigating factors on SOME of these deals. I'm not a rocket scientist (although I was a physics major in college...) but if you sell a product for less than you pay for it then you are going backwards. There HAS to be somewhere to make up the difference. All I'm saying is that I would be curious to see the final contract or sales slip when all of the fees and such come to bear.
If you have to drive or fly to get the great deal, then how much have you spent on gas or air fare? Also, how much of your time have you spent? Many times the difference isn't worth the other factors. As I said once before, take your TMV info into the dealer and make a deal from there. You should be able to make a deal that you and the dealer will both benefit from in less than an hour. No headaches, no stress, no travel. Just a thought.
Hope everyone had a great fourth!!!
I may have special circumstances, but because I frequently fly for my job, air fare or gas would likely cost me nothing. As to whether it's worth one to 1.5 days of my time to save $1000-2000+, well, I would say it is. And from very recent experience, I have found it takes much more than an hour (try days) to week out the best deal from local dealers. There is huge variation, even when they are all quoting from supposedly the same manufacturer-subsidized finance programs So it could actually take me less time to get a price through the Internet, fly to my business trip, and on the way home pick up my new car.
Anyway, there's all kinds of talk on this subject in the Hyundai (especially Sonata and Elantra) Prices Paid discussions, including stories about legit dealers who routinely advertise and honor Internet prices well under invoice (and way, way under TMV) before rebates. Hopefully someday soon we'll be able to have these kinds of discussions, about big discounts, on the Genesis.
I guess I was just saying that the difference in time spent and savings of frustration to make a good and fair deal on a car or furniture or whatever may well be just as good as spending days or weeks searching all over the USA trying to see what the greatest deal anywhere is.
Just saying. If you pay invoice minus incentives, did you get hosed?
I wasn't saying that you couldn't find a better deal than invoice or that the guy next to you at the supermarket didn't find a car for less somewhere else.
All I was saying was that buying a new car at invoice is something that most dealers will be ok with on most models and that it would not be an UNFAIR price for the consumer. It just seems that many people make buying a car a weeks or months process just to try and squeeze every penny out of the process when they could get what they want in an hour and still get a price that is fair to them and the dealer. B/C the dealer (just like any other retailer) should get an fair shake on the transaction as well.
By the way, I have sold three cars under invoice today, so I'm really just making a point to be making a point. Right or wrong.
Last time I checked, no one forces dealers to offer Internet prices at well under invoice. If they did not think they are getting a "fair shake" on the deal, then I assume they would not freely offer those kinds of prices.
So back on topic... I suppose you would also think it is fair for dealers to set prices on the first few Genesis sedans to over MSRP, if that is what the market will bear. I haven't seen anyone offer a Genesis (or anyone buy a Genesis) at or near invoice yet.
Well, the answer to the Genesis pricing question is this. If $1 or $1,000,000 over MSRP is the MARKET VALUE of the car then so be it. It is obvious that most consumers believe that UNDER MSRP is fair, then why would OVER MSRP not be fair if that was the MARKET VALUE? People pay full price for Sony Playstation 3's all day long. When they first came out, they were on eBay for $1,000's of dollars. These things are $499. Didn't that make the MARKET VALUE of a PS3 well over it's MSRP? Who was saying that $501 was immoral for that product?
We live in a free market economy, and some products have prices that are not set in stone. If a retailer has to discount a product to sell it, then so be it. If a retailer can charge a premium for a product, then good for them.
Again, I am not saying that shopping price is wrong. I'm not saying that getting an under invoice deal is wrong or unfair. My point was very simple. Buying a new car at invoice is generally a FAIR price. One at which the comsumer comes out with a FAIR price and the dealer makes a FAIR profit. It also should make the buying process very simple and stress free. It just seems that most of the "I hate car dealers" is because the "I want to buy the car for a nickel less if I can find it SOMEWHERE" mentality rules. This adds stress to the buying process and in general makes the whole thing less pleasant for the consumer and the retalier. If one chooses a car that they want and can get a discounted price down to invoice and then take off applicable rebates then they got the car they wanted for a reasonable cost and without the headache.
Sorry I opened a can of worms.
As you know, if someone wants a stress-free buying experience, there's plenty of dealers that offer no-haggle pricing, and at least in some cases the reps aren't on commission. Very stress-free. Unless you trade in your car, that is... but that is really another topic. There's at least one auto manufacturer that has no-haggle pricing across the board. But it isn't Hyundai.
And yes, you did open a really big can of worms. So let's close it.
By the way, we agree on every point you have made. Every person has the right to choose how to spend his/her time and money. We can simply see the same situation from two different angles.
To those of you that have purchased a Genesis, how are you liking your car?
Any new lease deals been announced for summer/fall on the Genesis?
Also, Jeff mentioned that paying "invoice" price is fair for both the dealer and the consumer. Is that because the dealer still makes money on hold-backs, fees, or what? When I bought my Azera, I had a really hard time negotiating down the price to even $500 above invoice. One dealership was selling above MSRP. The others were over $1000 over invoice. I finally found one that offered me $700 over invoice -- which I took. I know that pricing is based on supply and demand, but in the market we are in today, I can't see how the "demand" will be very high -- especially for larger luxury type vehicles (except initially when it's in the novelty stage).
Thanks.
At the dealer I went to, the Genesis V6 had a "market adjustment" of $2500. The reason given was that the car is very new and is very much in demand. Funny! The dealer had the cars for two days and had not sold a single one yet. I wished them luck. Hey, if they feel that is the market value for these cars, so be it.
I'm going to wait to test drive the V8 and the Tech Package. Hopefully, the V8 provides a little more "kick" on acceleration.
For those comparing/shopping Infinity and Genesis, you can get a loaded pre-owned (navigation, etc) 2007 Infinity M45 Sport for the price of a "pre-market adjustment" Premium Plus Genesis V6. I just throw it out to show what the Genesis is up against in the price-range that it's playing in.
On the other side of the spectrum, and this is a new one, now small cars are, all of the sudden more in demand than ever before. For example, I brought my cousin car shopping today. She's looking for a small econ vehicle. She really likes the Civic, so that was our first stop, at the local dealer, to my surprise, $3,000 markup, next closest dealer, same thing, also markup on the Fit as well.
Supply and demand, supply and demand...
There is a $399/mo introductory lease special available in most markets (V6)