Hyundai Genesis Sedan 2009+

louiswei

Unless those "professionals" are willing to pay for my car otherwise I can just about not giving a crap about what their "professional opinions" are...

At the end of the day there is only one "review" that truly matters: MINE!!

jeansyc

The link supports my thought that the market timing is bad for Genesis. They made a fatal error in NOT bringing in the 3.3 for under $30,000 as promised along with LYING about having Adaptive Cruise Control available.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_30/b4093063899399.htm?campaign_i- d=rss_null

joe97

I disagree. The sub-30K tag has already been reserved for the Azera, the Genesis has the right pricing structure. Sure, most would like the price to be even lower, but from Hyundai's perspective, this clearly makes the distinction with no overlapping. The Genesis is the natural progression to the Azera, just like the rest of Hyundai's fleet.

As for the 3.3L engine, I am not sure how the ommission is a fatal error - sure, you may get 0.5 mpg (combined) better than the 3.8, but MPG for the Genesis is one of its many strong points (V6 & V8).

And, adaptive crusise control, cost may have played a factor here. I wouldn't say, however, Hyundai is lying, as the automaker reserves the right to make adjustments to pricing, equipment, and others as they see fit.

Yes, Hyundai once said the price of the base form would be under 30K, which likely would have been with the 3.3L, but even if that engine had existed for the North American market, the cost of materials and everything else, would not have supported the pricing. NO ONE, including Hyundai, had expected cost of pretty everything to risen at a such fast rate. And, what has every automaker done in response? Price increases. By the way, last I checked, Hyundai is still in the business to make a profit, so be happy how cheap autos are here in the US market, especially, compared to other markets of the world.

blnewto

I think the biggest obstacle for the Genesis is trying to be a premium luxury vehicle amidst a more utilitarian brand line. The main reason Lexus, Infinity, and Acura broke away from their parent companies was to pursue the upper-crust market and differentiate their brands from their parent companies w/ nicer showrooms, salesman that were dedicated to the smaller line of performance/luxury cars, and of course pricing that was also at a premium. For Hyundai to tread in these waters and still keep their main vehicle lineup (the Elantra/Sonata/SanteFe, etc.) but also include the luxury lineup of the Gen & Gen coupe may be a bit of a tightrope. It is a bit vain to think that the brand really matters, but for the Gen to truly compete w/ the lux brands it may need to further remove itself from the Hyundai branding. I've heard several accounts of Hyundai going into a separate lux brand and this may just be the beginning. As it stands the Gen is more easily compared to a loaded rear-drive Avalon (since the Avalon is atop the Toyota line but is somewhat compareable to the ES 350).

joe97

I'd agree with your take on the current position of Hyundai.

If I recall correctly, I believe Hyundai has said for the US market, and North America (NA) as a whole, the cost of setting up a luxury brand was too costly, with the return of the initial investment (break-even) estimated at a very long time (don't remember the exact number of the years). That said, Hyundai is contending with the luxury brand elsewhere, such as in its home market and China. I am sure Hyundai has been studying the NA market, and will continue to assess the possibility of a luxury nameplate.

As we stand now, and if nothing else, I'd say the arrival of the Genesis line will provide intangible benefits to the rest of the Hyundai fleet and equally important, the brand itself.

allmet33

Joe97...you are correct. Creating a luxury brand would have set the company back big time and that's an even bigger chance to take as opposed to bringing the Genesis to market under the Hyundai moniker.

The Genesis can serve two purposes here, bring much credibility and respectability to the brand and also set a standard that a company doesn't have to branch off in order to accomodate various walks of life by offering everything from the econo-box commuter car all the way up to full size luxury sedans. The only thing they are missing in their fleet is a luxo full-sized SUV (Veracruz is close) and a pick-up truck. Wow...all from one car maker.

jeffreid

Adaptive cruise should be available next year.

I don't think it was entirely a cost issue. HMA is obsessed with being as close to "zero defects" as possible. If they feel that a part or a system needs work , then they will simply delay it until they feel it is right.

For example. Notice that there are no white Genesi right now. HMA is assuring themselves of their paint line on this car before they roll out the most difficult paint job. They want to be certain that it is as close to perfect as possible before they hit the ground.

They are paying for putting themselves in the "unreliable" category. That may not be entirely accurate anymore, but perception is MUCH more important than reality.

blnewto

It would make sense (at least to this layman) for Hyundai to combine w/ Kia, scrap the Kia brand and focus it's effort on the core Hyundai products and also open a Genesis luxury division. This would accomplish quite a bit IMO. Kia and Hyundai take sales away from each other, Kia isn't gaining market share and has a brand perception that is quite poor (compared to Hyundai). Hyundai is gaining market share and is continually improving its' product line, I think it now competes well w/ Honda/Toyota/Nissan. Making a new luxury division w/ the money it saves by ditching Kia and starting w/ the Genesis/Azera(rebadged & updated)/Veracrus(also rebadged & updated),which are all very nice examples of their class, would be a good way to separate from Hyundai and get the demographic it desires into their showrooms and make it easier for someone to make a decision to plunk down 30-40k. Currently no matter how much you love Hyundai it's still considered a utilitarian brand, and I doubt it will every rise above that. That's not at all bashing Hyundai, it's just the fickle American mindset (and that of the general automotive press).

joe97

I disagree with the removal of the Kia brand. Believe it or not, Hyundai and Kia products are much more differentiated than many might think; aside from Accent/Rio (with an exception, Accent has the 3 door; Rio has the 5), Tucson/Sportage, Entourage/Sedona, everything else is vast different.

Kia and Hyundai take sales away from each other, Kia isn't gaining market share and has a brand perception that is quite poor (compared to Hyundai). Hyundai is gaining market share and is continually improving its' product line, I think it now competes well w/ Honda/Toyota/Nissan.

Both are actually gaining market share, if I recall correctly. As a matter of fact, Kia has been performing better than Hyundai in recent times, believe it or not. And both are exceeding the industry average so far in 2008, which has been just down right scary.

Making a new luxury division w/ the money it saves by ditching Kia

It's not as easy as 1-2-3. There is no guarantee the luxury division would work, especially given the competitiveness of the market, timing of the market, loyalty that exists in the luxury market, not to mention, ZERO brand equity. This is in addition to Hyundai's assessment the benefit wouldn't absorb cost until a long time after the initial investment. On the other side of things, I would like to think Kia as a brand like Scion, with more appeal to the younger generation crowd - the upcoming Soul, Forte, KOUP are good examples. I like the direction where Kia is heading.

Bottom line, Kia isn't going anywhere, and the luxury division is nowhere near.

allthatblue

Right. I don't give much credit to auto "professionals' too. they're all car enthusiast and many of their reviews are far from our daily reality and somewhat 'paranoid'-they grumble that the family sedan such as Camry, Accord or Sonata. lacks some feel of thrust.(who would dive a family car wanting that kind of feel seating their kids in the back seat?)

The only reason I use the word "professional" is that hebrewhammer used that term for being against other guys' ride experience. this doesn't mean I fully trust professional auto journalists.

allthatblue

Sorry I made mistake in my post-not 'hebrewhammer' but 'carolinabob'
(why can't I edit my post? where is 'edit' icon on the post? :confuse: )

allthatblue

I thought the same as you-put Kia to death and launch a new luxo brand. but Hyundai-Kia motors group must be thinking differently. As you know, Kia hired a big-shot car designer Peter Schreyer once in VW and AUDI wishing him to bring a totally new brand personality to Kia. And SOUL is his first move. Forte and production version of KOUP will follow it soon.

I don't think it's easy for Kia to refresh its brand perception by that new design direction in the short run. But, anyway, Hyundai-Kia planned and is carrying out the plan now. I guess H-K motors group may try to position Kia as a division like Scion of Toyota which has more unique, dynamic and fun-car-like line-up rather than Hyundai.

pat

Hi - the Edit and Delete links are available to you for about 30 minutes after you've posted, but then they are gone. Sorry.

allmet33

Rumor has it that the direction Kia is going to take is to compete directly with the likes of Chevy & Saturn while Hyundai continues to go against Toyota, Honda and now Lexus & Infiniti. I guess like how GM has blue-collar Chevy (Kia) and then slightly upscaled GMC (Hyundai). It makes more sense now that I understand with the upcoming Genesis coupe, that the Tiburon will be edited from the line-up, but...Kia will be picking up the slack by producing Koup.

It's not to say that Hyundai can't eventually branch off a luxury brand, but right now...the Genesis can truly cement Hyundai's bid to be the serious contender they've shown to become. Who knows...maybe, just maybe...Hyundai will turn into the luxury line (competing with Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, Volvo...) while Kia takes on Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Chevy, Ford...). Just a thought.

tjc78

OK... so after months of reading about the Genesis, I finally got some time behind the wheel.

My GF was picking up her Elantra from the Hyundai body shop and since we were there I started talking to her salesman and I asked to drive one. I explained that I still had about 7 - 8 months before my current lease was up, but was really interested in the car. Was very professional the whole time and never tried to pressure me or anything.

They had 3 models right up front that I could see. One was a base at 33K, the other a tech at 40K. Didn't look at the other one as it was the same burgundy color as the one in the showroom.

I drove the Tech equipped black on black. First thing I noticed was the quality of the interior. Very nice fit and finish and the leather was great. I hate black interior but that is just me. I much preferred the other model with the beige. The car had around 350 miles on it and the salesman stated this is the model they are using for test drives. After a brief intro to some features and a few minutes looking for the sunshade button we were off. This dealership has a test track which isn't the best IMO but for an initial drive is fine. I have to say that overall I am very impressed. Very quiet, great direct (although, light) steering and nice firm brake pedal. I did one lap very sedate and the next couple were progressively faster as I got used to the car. There was little or no body roll though the curves and the car felt like it wanted me to give it more. The ride was firm but not harsh. I believe it may be a bit softer with 17" rims which I prefer anyway. My '06 Avalon would have taken the curves at the same speed but would have been squeeling the tires to say the least. None of that in the Genesis. As for the engine it was quiet, but... the 2GR in my Avalon is more willing to rev and I think on the dragstrip my Avalon would be a touch quicker. Seat of the pants observation here, and the Genesis was not broken it yet so that could change a little.

Seat comfort was great, however, I wished for a bit more front legroom and overall my Avalon is roomier inside, but it wouldn't deter me from buying the car. The stereo was great, and the controls seemed logical.

Overall a great car. I would need a much longer test drive on everyday roads but it is most definately a contender to replace my Avalon.

hebrewhammer

tjc78 said: As for the engine it was quiet, but... the 2GR in my Avalon is more willing to rev and I think on the dragstrip my Avalon would be a touch quicker. Seat of the pants observation here, and the Genesis was not broken it yet so that could change a little.

Seat comfort was great, however, I wished for a bit more front legroom and overall my Avalon is roomier inside, but it wouldn't deter me from buying the car. The stereo was great, and the controls seemed logical.

Overall a great car. I would need a much longer test drive on everyday roads but it is most definately a contender to replace my Avalon.

From your comments, you seem to be confirming what someone said about a dozen pages back or so - that the real cross-shopping for the Genesis will be among Avalon owners and so on, even though the Genesis is RWD and the Avalon is FWD.

Also, you confirmed my test drive experience in two respects. I said the ride was too firm for a luxury car, and that the steering wheel was numb and light. Everyone jumped all over me for it.

You suggest the Avalon motor is superb, and I agree. The Avalon is really a stealth Lexus in terms of quietness, ride smoothness, interior fit and finish, reliability and interior roominess.

And if you and I are right, Hyundai's problem may not be that the competition they benchmarked is 5k to 15k more, but that new Avalons are being discounted to around 26k or 27k now, which would be 6k to 14k CHEAPER than the Genesis, assuming that Hyundai doesn't heavily discount the Genesis.

allmet33

to take the debate another direction...if the ride is too firm to be a luxury car and quite a few folks have stated the ride to be comparable to that of the Infiniti M or the Lexus GS sedans...are those too harsh riding to be luxury sedans as well?

I honestlyl believe the Genesis will garner looks from those shopping everything from the Avalon/Maxima all the way up to the M35/45 and Benz E-Class. I say those because there will be a lot of folks that want the luxury offerings, but don't want to pay for premium fuel and the Genesis foots that bill.

cnardi

I have attended the hyundai launch of the genesis and i can tell you that there are only going to be 8000 make for the US this year. IF you do the math, there are just over 600 dealers in the US, that means that every deaelr will get about 12 of them . the v8 will list for about 44 all loaded up. I have a 40000 one on my lot right now and its the 3.8 with premium and tech pack.

tjc78

I said the ride was too firm for a luxury car

I don't think it was any firmer than a M35 and or even a Maxima. Firmer than my Avalon.... definately. It all depends what you are looking for. I wouldn't object to something a little firmer than my Avalon but I don't want something bone jarring. The Genesis fits into this category.

and that the steering wheel was numb and light

I wouldn't call it numb, but it was lighter than I had anticipated. I think the term I used was "direct" which it was.

that the real cross-shopping for the Genesis will be among Avalon owners and so on

I have said that from day one... even on other boards. The dealer said he has had people in Avalons and Buicks but has also had people driving MBs and Bimmers driving the Genesis as well.

hebrewhammer

Right, I agree. The V6 is firm, and the V8 is firmer according to reports.

I predict that the Genesis will not do well, partly due to pricing, and partly due to the timing of the rollout (something they couldn't control).

Has anyone seen the insane discounts going on with almost all cars and trucks right now? It's crazy.

I'd venture to bet not many people will want to spend 10k more on a Genesis than comparably equipped Avalon.

The only exception are the uber-mpg compacts and subcompacts.

tjc78

I'd venture to bet not many people will want to spend 10k more on a Genesis than comparably equipped Avalon

How is that even possible? A fully decked out Avalon is about 38 - 39K. A fully loaded V6 Genesis is 40K. You mean to tell me you are going to get a brand new Av Limited for 30K? Tell me where so I can buy now. That is considering that the Genesis will go at sticker. It won't, the dealer last night was willing to deal if I was. No ADM or any add-ons either. As much as I like my Avalon, lets be fair here... a 27 or 28K Avalon XL is not in the same equipment class as even a base Genesis. Even if you compare an Avalon XLS which I own at about 34 - 35K the Genesis with premium package @ 35K is better equipped for about the same $$. Can the Avalon be had for less OTD? Probably, but in all fairness the Avalon is nearly a 4 year old design now.

allmet33

No, no, no...he meant a used Avalon...you can get a used '07 XLS for about $10K less than a Genesis 3.8 w/premium package.

docrw

Wow, first you post a review that refutes what virtually everyone else has written about the Genesis, then you completely misrepresent what another poster stated about his test drive to make them fall in line with your views. You top all that off by just lying about the relative price difference between an Avalon and a Genesis. I get that you don't like the Genesis, but if you have to make stuff up to support your views then maybe you should reexamine them, or your reasons behind them.

I find your posts to be extremely misleading and disingenuous and ask you here and now to cease with the misstatements and unsubstantiated claims. Your opinions are as valid as anyone else's and are more than welcome, just stop making things up to support them.

For the record, I do not work for, nor even own a Hyundai, and this is not an emotional response to your posts, only an attempt to have an air of honesty and fairness in this forum.

tjc78

he meant a used Avalon

This is what Hebrewhammer originally wrote.... did I miss something?

And if you and I are right, Hyundai's problem may not be that the competition they benchmarked is 5k to 15k more, but that new Avalons are being discounted to around 26k or 27k now, which would be 6k to 14k CHEAPER than the Genesis, assuming that Hyundai doesn't heavily discount the Genesis.

allmet33

Refer to post 2500....

I'd venture to bet not many people will want to spend 10k more on a Genesis than comparably equipped Avalon.

dueho

hebrewhammer: Putting it in context and compare the Genesis to the Avalon, then your comment regarding the firmness of the Genesis makes sense and is very credible.

The Avalon and Camry are known for soft rides. However, driving them [moderately] fast over a dip or a hump on the curved road and you'll quickly discover that the sponginess of those cars are not a positive attribute to have. That's where you'd want the car to grip the road instead of sending you flying off in a tangent. But if you're a fan of the Avalon and Camry softness, you'd naturally dislike the Genesis. It's all a matter of personal preference.

As for the quietness, ride smoothness, and fit and finish, the Genesis is as good as Lexus LS430. (Keep in mind I'm not comparing the quality of the materials here. Of course, LS is better) I haven't driven in the LS460 yet, so I don't know about it.

tjc78

Not trying to be a ba** buster here....but even in post 2500 he never mentioned used. Going back to the earlier post he specifically mentioned "new". He is right you can easily get a "new" Avalon (a XL model) for 28K. However, it is not equipped like the base Genesis and not even close to a tech package.... naturally it will be a lot less $$

hebrewhammer

2008 Toyota Avalon

MSRP: $27,325 - $34,665
Invoice: $24,414 - $30,504
MPG: 19 City / 28 Hwy

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/2008-Toyota-Avalon/

The loaded to the gills Avalon is $34,665 MSRP. I personally know that I can get that very car for not a penny more than $28,500.

joe97

I predict that the Genesis will not do well, partly due to pricing, and partly due to the timing of the rollout (something they couldn't control).

What's wrong with the pricing? What were you expecting? Two hundred dollars?

I think the Genesis has a good shot of being sucessful. It's a good car, and once consumers get the message (Hyundai USA has to do a good job at communication the message - full advertising should be around the corner), this car will present as an alternative to both the price set (those with similar pricing) and the image set (competitors at 10K or more).

In terms of a number, I would say 1-2K initially after sufficient supply would be a good target to shoot for.

allmet33

You're right tjc78, I was being sarcastic with the "used" part.

joe97

The loaded to the gills Avalon is $34,665 MSRP

Incorrect. That's the price of a base Avalon Ltd. + $720 of shipping = $35,385

I personally know that I can get that very car for not a penny more than $28,500.

Sounds like your Toyota dealer is heavily discounting the Avalon...

tjc78

The loaded to the gills Avalon is $34,665 MSRP

No its not... my '06 XLS stickered at 34K without NAV and keyless start. A fully optioned Limited is right around 39K with NAV and Laser cruise. If you don't believe me go to Yota's web site and build one with everything.

tjc78

I was being sarcastic

Guess I'm a bit off today

allmet33

It's all good, I guess I wasn't blatant enough with the sarcasm.

On another note, why would someone want to pay $28K (as he says) for a fully loaded new Avalon when they can pay $4-5K less for a used fully loaded one?

docrw

See what I mean, everything this guy writes is twisted/spun to fit his argument. His agenda is quite clear and his tactics to carry out that agenda are morally questionable to be generous.

I'm not going to defend the Genesis against legitimate criticisms. I have no dog in this fight other than to keep the discussion aboveboard.

allmet33

Maybe if I had put things THAT way, I wouldn't have been reprimanded yesterday for pointing out the same things. :sick:

docrw

Sorry to hear that. I'm happy to ghost write your rants for you for a nominal fee

carolinabob

I Read all the reviews in their entirety and comments from several people who have actually driven a car off the lot and not at a Hyundai event. Stand by my comments.
Interesting that no one can criticize the car, but you can criticize us for criticizing the car.

tjc78

See what I mean

Yep.. the fact of matter here is that if you are going to compare the Avalon to the Genesis do it on level playing field. As I mentioned I own an '06 Av XLS that is an absolutely fantastic vehicle. After driving the Genesis I can honestly say that they are very close. If the most room and soft ride is your preference go for the Avalon if you want something a little more capable in the handling dept and like RWD go for the Genesis. Like I mentioned earlier I do prefer the response from the 3.5 in my Avalon compared to the 3.8 in the Gen... but I suspect many people couldn't even tell the difference. As for pricing they are very similar.... sure the base Avalon can be had for less then a base Gen but the equipment levels aren't even close. The base Avalon has cloth interior... apples to apples please!

allmet33

I will have to keep that in mind for future reference.

docrw

I'll say it once more. Its not the criticism that I mind, its the criticisms that are unsubstantiated or without any frame of reference. If someone comes on here and says I drove the car and it doesn't measure up to my BMW, MB, Lexus, Toyota etc., as far as... goes, that's fine. To just come out and say the ride is too firm and it bounds on the highway, without saying in comparison to what, or at what speed under what conditions is not helpful to anyone. To then make things up about pricing or twisting someone else's words completely undermines one's credibility.

Listen, everyone is free to post what they want as long as it is not personally offensive. However, I think it is not beneficial to this forum or any other, to let remarks like I referenced above go unanswered. I never made any personal comments, I kept them geared toward the content of the post itself which I feel is completely appropriate.

carolinabob

Consumer Reports gave a glowing review to the Azera, particularly the ride. Now they say the 2007 is a Used Car to Avoid.
Unfortunately, the suspension problems in the Azera did not surface until about the 5,000 mile mark of ownership. Hyundai admited it by replacing the struts and a new suspension for the 2009.
I wish I had known about the bouncing/wallowing/porpoising Azera before I bought it. Test drove four for up to one hour each on different roads, but since new, none had the problems yet.
Thanks for your post as it is what I want to hear so I can make a better judgement on the Genesis.
BTW, I got massacared on the Azera site for criticizing the suspension, even though it is the most discussed topic.

allmet33

Hold up a minute...if mentioning room between the Avalon and Genesis...the Avalon is spec'd at 106.9 cu. ft. and the Genesis is listed at 109.4 cu. ft. Trunk volume...the Avalon is listed at 14.4 cu. ft. and the Genesis shows 15.9 cu. ft.

So even if you want more room, the Genesis gets the nod there too.

carolinabob

Did I miss a shift in Hyundai's marketing? I thought the Azera was the Avalon fighter and the Genesis was going to do battle with Lexus GS, Infiniti G, Acura TL, BMW 3, et.al. After all, in their events they do not bring an Avalon to the site, do they?
Oops, guess I'll get bashed for saying this.

allmet33

Hey bob, I was one that was skeptical about the suspension problem until someone pointed out the fact that I haven't experienced what most others are because of my earlier production '06 (build date of 11/05) which probably has different shocks than the ones the TSB covers.

That being said...it would seem like an issue that all who have that problem need to start complaining en masse to Hyundai about it to do something more of a permanent fix.

Please forgive my point of view of being of one that didn't or hasn't experienced the suspension problems you talk of with your Azera.

allmet33

Welllllllll....the Azera is still going head to head with the Avalon, but with the Genesis being the shiny new toy in the toy box...it's getting all the attention.

I think the Avalon really gets thrown in simply by price point. It's obvious that you will get more car with the Genesis. From a performance standard...I really don't think the Avalon will keep up with the Genesis (IMO).

joe97

Consumer Reports gave a glowing review to the Azera, particularly the ride. Now they say the 2007 is a Used Car to Avoid.

Well, not if you read the details. What you didn't post was the areas where the faults submitted by the readers. Both the Azera and the Camry got the nod, but the Azera only had issues such as electronics; whereas the Camry came in with tranny issues and a whole lot of black dots.

Can we get back to the Genesis please?

tjc78

You are right about the trunk... however, not sure how the Genesis comes up with more interior space, because in the Avalon I do not sit with my seat all the way back and have plenty of room to extend my legs out. In the Genesis the seat was all the way back and my leg was slightly bent. With the seat in that position my legs just touched the seatback when sitting in the rear. In my Avalon there is a good inch of room to the seatback. The Gen probably has more interior volume due to headroom, but I believe the Avalon to have more usable space.

tjc78

From a performance standard...I really don't think the Avalon will keep up with the Genesis (IMO)

In the curves absolutely correct.... but in straight line the 3.8 V6 will get edged out by the Avalon. My seat of the pants observation....

allmet33

Well...I can assure you...I'm 6'2" tall. In my Azera, with the driver's seat set up for me to drive, I can sit behind it but I have to open my legs so that my knees are on each side of the seat back. In the Genesis, setting the driver's seat up for me to drive...climbing behind it my knees don't even come close to the seat back.

Try setting both as you would for driving, then see. You stated that you don't sit with the seat all the way back and you have an inch of space between the seat back and your knees. Then you said in the Genesis with the seat all the way back...your leg was slightly bent. Why would you put the seat all the way back on the Genesis, but not in the Avalon?

The Avalon, I set the driver's seat up for me to drive and got behind it and my knees were slightly apart and touching the seat back. You end up with more room in the Avalon because the rear seats recline a bit as well.

The numbers I came up with are from the respective car maker sites. If you compare the specs...the Genesis has more front leg room and the Avalon shows to have more rear leg room. Some of it may be up, but the head room is only an inch higher in the Genesis. According to the specs...there's a 3 cu. ft. difference just in the passenger cabin alone.