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Not exaclty true because their demographic isn't the ones that already own BMW's, MB's and the sort. Now if they happen to get some, that's a plus on their part. They are working within their value niche by bringing a luxury vehicle to those that can't afford to get the same thing because of pricing that MB, BMW and the like offer. The Genesis gives them that at a price they can afford. That being said, their target are those that own near luxury sedans like the Avalon, Azera, 300 and want a bit more without having to spend $45K+ to get it.
another history lesson for those of you that choose to ignore it - Toyota back in the middle late 80s was not nearly in the same financial shape they are in today. It's not like they were hurting, but definitely not able to launch completely new brands without some help. So where do you suppose that help came from?
How about from existing Toyota dealers (as well as other brands). It came in the form of franchise fees, and there was a line around the block of dealers that couldn't wait to help Toyota pull off what they were about to pull off. That's history, which I understand means nothing to you BUT do you think that maybe, just maybe the reason why Hyundai didn't create a 'Genesis' brand is because there is nowhere near that kind of demand for its products?
I know this part is a bit off topic, but you do know the Sonata is 20 years old this year, right? Go back and see if you can remember the Sonata's start and where it is now...night and day, wouldn't you say?
Trust me, I know history more so than some of the folks that frequent this forum. I knew that Toyota and Honda didn't enjoy immediate success when they landed in the U.S. They actually went through the very same growing pains Hyundai went through, however then...they didn't have other automakers to be compared to. Hyundai has paid attention to their blueprint and that's whey they've been able to turn things around as drastically as they have compared to their start. I think we can all agree that the vehicles they produce today are far much better than the Excel they started with.
Do you remember Mazda Millenia?
The Mazda Millenia was originally planned as the second of three luxury cars for Mazda's luxury brand, Amati. Mazda's dwindling finances could not support Amati brand, the Millenia was launched 1995 and it replaced the 929.
It was developed for a separate audience from typical Mazda customers, the Millenia boasted a myriad of finer details for its time. It was engineered to far greater levels of perceived quality than existing Mazda cars, such as interior plastic, panel gap and thicker paint coating. The Millenia was assembled in a new production line presumably set up for Amati cars.
It was the only production car in the world to employ a Miller cycle engine. Yaw-sensitive 4-wheel steering was available as an option in Japan; Mazda claimed that with this feature, the Millenia was capable of passing the elk test at speeds comparable to the BMW 850i, surpassing the Z32 Nissan 300ZX.
In the USA, the Millenia was available with or without the Miller Cycle engine (The "Millenia S" spec).
link title
It was sold along with Mazda 323, 626, B series pickup etc
So what happened to Millenia? It was face lifted in 1997 which include numerous cost saving measure like changing/downgrading hood from Aluminium to steel etc... and was finally killed.
In my opinion the BRAND PERCEPTION is significant in Luxury segment. Lexus/Acura/Infiniti have survived because they are "DIFFERENT" brand.
Acura stumbled initially because they "named" the luxury car Legend/Integra/Vigor... Legend became a Luxury name plate... Integra & Vigor were just another cars...It took them a while to go to alphanumeric nomenclature...
Now you drive an Acura first then TSX/TL/MDX etc...
You Lexus first then ES/GS/LS
You dribe BMW first then 1 series/5 series/7series
In case of Hyundai..You drive Hyundai first then Genesis
Same reason "MAYBACK" was created because Merc was not exclusive enough...a 200K MB S65 still a mass luxury Merc
You see the picture?
The Genesis on the other hand, it offers...pound for pound...pretty much what a Lexus GS offers and quite a bit of what an LS offers. What Mazda can ever tout that claim?
Amati??? Never made it off the ground because Mazda had problems producing solid problem free cars. The 929 was the best one, because after that the Milennia and the Diamante suffered from a lot of electrical and transmission problems.
Sorry...Mazda just didn't know what they were doing. Their niche is sport-minded vehicles which they've been quite successful with. That new 6 is SWEET...ZOOM-ZOOM!!!!
By the way...it's Maybach. MB not exclusive enough??? You are aware that Benz already sells a Benz around $450K, right? SLR McLaren...need I say more???
IMO, for what it's not worth
And BTW if you think the old Excels they sold in this country were bad, you would be happy to know that it was better than what the Koreans were driving around in(called Ponys over there) . Less a bunch of safety type features, rusting out buckets of bolts (Ulsan is on the coast), and further blessed with LPG gas tanks in their trunks.
I was usually provided one to drive on my visits, it's a wonder I made it out alive not only because of the quality of the car but also becuase the Koreans might just be the most incapable, dangerous, and crappy drivers I've ever experienced.
MB not exclusive enough for Maybach crowd that includes Bentley, Rolls, etc.
Honda Accord is not exclusive enough for Acura crowd
Camry/Avalon is not exclusive enough for Lexus crowd
Similarly Genesis is not exclusive enough (YET) for mass luxury crowd
#1. If a LS460 had it's badges changed from "Lexus" to "Hyundai", would it cease to be a "luxury car"? And if so, does the subject not need to become "what is a luxury BRAND?"
#2. If a Genesis gets a 3 pointed star on the front, does it then become a luxury car? If so, please refer to the first point.
#3. Hyundai is not discounting the Genesis in the form that the Captain is talking about. A factory rebate would be a discount from HMA, but since there are none, it stands to reason that the dealers are providing the discounts on their own. Personally, I think a little old fashioned salesmanship would fix SOME of that, but what do I know.
#4. There are some knowledgeable Hyundai salespeople out there. Come over to Arkansas and I will show you a few.
#5. I made the mistake of only ordering 3 Genesi at first. I have sold all three at or over MSRP with clients that were happy and felt that they were getting more car than they were paying for. As for trades, I took a 300C and a Santa Fe SE. The third did not have a trade.
#6. The Genesis is not a BMW!! Seriously. The term sport sedan may sound good in advertising, but really, this is a smooth riding, quiet, well powered luxury sedan. That's it. No more, no less.
#7. When is the question about pricing going to get turned around? Tell me why the E-class or the GS series are worth the other $10k or $20k? Seriously, sell me on this. Is the Genesis a good buy for the lesser amount? I dunno. Probably. But really, what is it about those other cars that makes them really worth that extra money? Bring the facts on in for a little while. I think we are going to be pricing some REALLY expensive badges around here.
#8. When someone asks you why you spent $40k on a Hyundai, just show them the car. That will usually help them to understand. If I had a nickel for every time I heard, "wow, it really has all that, and it's how much? That's a bargain!!"
#9. I have a Stainless steel French Door Samsung fridge in my kitchen. It came from Korea. My wife loves it (she picked it out), and yeah, I get compliments on it a lot!! Even if it is from Korea. Good stuff is good stuff. End of story.
Hope all of you Genesis owners are enjoying your cars, and keep fighting the good fight!! :shades:
If you say so, Benz was doing just fine along with Bentley and Rolls before they decided to create Maybach.
The Genesis isn't set for exclusivity...that's the point your missing. It's set up to be widely avaliable luxury, thus my statement that it's the luxury car of the average blue collar worker!!! Sheesh...it's not rocket science here. Why does luxury have to be some level of exclusivity? A Benz C-Class isn't exclusive, but it's luxury. A BMW 3-Series isn't exclusive, but it's luxury. The Genesis IS exclusive in that it offers what the mid and upper level luxury sedans offer (size and amenities) for the price of the entry level luxury sedans they offer. Wow...if that's not exclusive...I don't know what is. How many automakers are doing that?
If its having all the amenities and doodads then any loaded car is a luxury (09 Maxima, Genesis, Azera, G8, etc)
If luxury is "IMAGE".. which it is in image conscious USA then Hyundai is NOT luxury...
Read any newspaper article. car magazine they talk about luxury nameplate like Merc/BMW/etc.... They dont talk about Luxury Car(s)
#1. If a LS460 had it's badges changed from "Lexus" to "Hyundai", would it cease to be a "luxury car"? And if so, does the subject not need to become "what is a luxury BRAND?"
If it is still sold alongside Accent/Elantra and service people not "trained" to cater to whimsical needs of rich folks then Rebadged LS is not Luxury
#2. If a Genesis gets a 3 pointed star on the front, does it then become a luxury car? If so, please refer to the first point.
Yes... if its sold at Merc Dealer with a new name then it is a luxury... it gives an image. The sales people are not out there telling you "This car is too rich for you"...This is what I was told by Kerney Mesa Hyundai in San Diego
#3. Hyundai is not discounting the Genesis in the form that the Captain is talking about. A factory rebate would be a discount from HMA
Discount/Selling price has nothing to do with it...E350 has a discount of 8K, M35 about 7K..Its the feeling/Perception...
#4. There are some knowledgeable Hyundai salespeople out there. Come over to Arkansas and I will show you a few.
I dont doubt that...but they are far in between..see above
#5. I made the mistake of only ordering 3 Genesi at first. I have sold all three at or over MSRP with clients that were happy and felt that they were getting more car than they were paying for. As for trades, I took a 300C and a Santa Fe SE. The third did not have a trade.
Dont doubt this too..Have you recieved trade in E class & above, GS and above, 5 series and above
#6. The Genesis is not a BMW!! Seriously. The term sport sedan may sound good in advertising, but really, this is a smooth riding, quiet, well powered luxury sedan. That's it. No more, no less.
Totally agree here
#7. When is the question about pricing going to get turned around? Tell me why the E-class or the GS series are worth the other $10k or $20k? Seriously, sell me on this. Is the Genesis a good buy for the lesser amount? I dunno. Probably. But really, what is it about those other cars that makes them really worth that extra money? Bring the facts on in for a little while. I think we are going to be pricing some REALLY expensive badges around here.
As I said Pricing/Discount are of insignificant importance. Its the Image. If you soup up YUGO with all doodas will it become Luxury?
#8. When someone asks you why you spent $40k on a Hyundai, just show them the car. That will usually help them to understand. If I had a nickel for every time I heard, "wow, it really has all that, and it's how much? That's a bargain!!"
Thats EXACTLY WHAT IT IS...a BARGAIN
#9. I have a Stainless steel French Door Samsung fridge in my kitchen. It came from Korea. My wife loves it (she picked it out), and yeah, I get compliments on it a lot!! Even if it is from Korea. Good stuff is good stuff. End of story.
Where it is made is not that significant...Korea has produced some extremely good high tech stuff..NO one is disputing the QUALITY of Hyundai..I mean Genesis
Not that many years ago, when shopping full size sedans spent a lot of time looking over the Infiniti G, and M35s. This was in April 05 and the M was brand new.
The G was a blast, about the money I wanted to spend, but simply too small and perhaps a bit too 'sporting' for my tastes. The M35 was perfect - with what I think was called a "Journey' package, it stickered at something over $41k, but was drive out priced at $45k (plus TT&L) - why? - because of demand and because the car in effect was underpriced for what it was (and still is) . Some of these things we can say about the Genesis, others we can't.
Then why there was need to create maybach? MB wanted a piece of Bentley/Rolls business... The only way to do it is to have separate marque
The Genesis isn't set for exclusivity... that's the point your missing. It's set up to be widely available luxury, thus my statement that it's the luxury car of the average blue collar worker!!!
I will give you that. Its a extremely nice, very comfortable, and very refined car.... Just dont call it Luxury.
What is a "blue Collar Luxury".. its a oxymoron
Sheesh...it's not rocket science here. Why does luxury have to be some level of exclusivity? A Benz C-Class isn't exclusive, but it's luxury. A BMW 3-Series isn't exclusive, but it's luxury.
You are correct its not rocket science... class is a Merc (Marque), 1 and 3 series are BMW (Marque) first
Wow...if that's not exclusive...I don't know what is. How many automakers are doing that?
For 40K you can get fully loaded Maxima, Avalon, non exclusive and provide good "blue collar luxury"
This is what I read somewhere:
Real Luxury buyers and "other car" buyers they both open their check book while they buy cars. The difference is real luxury buyers open it without knowing/caring for amount they have to write...more often its someone else writing it for them.
When you buy lowly C class...you give an image of being associated with the first type...What do you associate Genesis with?
Is it superficial..You bet. Does it happen..you bet.
In the end here is the acid test.
You drive up to a parking attendent in a Genesis and an S class..who do you think will get more attention?
May be I should rephrase it
You drive up to a parking attendent in a Genesis and an C/E-class..who do you think will get more attention?
I rest my case and will probably refrain from more discussion on this Luxury/non lux genesis topic.
I must say that its a great car and I almost (yes almost) bought it..was turned off by salesman comment...
Hyundai's Genesis product brochure refers to it as a "sports sedan". Maybe AR didn't receive it, but I can send you one.
Good...you saved $400.00 + by not being sucked in with instant gratification. Originally Hyundai said that "Genesis" badged vehicles would only be sold in Korea home market and exports to China. Here we have a US dealer thumbing their nose at corporate Korea and goudging the US buyers.
Can you picture the train wreck at the dealer when a buyer insists on original Hyundai US Genesis badging?
This is the difference between a luxury brand and one that claims to be. If Hyundai can get it right, then they can make the claim, but they haven't so far.
BTW, sales may be good in your area, but the cars are stacking up elsewhere - check out Auto Trader and they don't even list all the dealers.
As I stated, MB is already getting that kind of money and has been.
I will give you that. Its a extremely nice, very comfortable, and very refined car.... Just dont call it Luxury.
What is a "blue Collar Luxury".. its a oxymoron
I don't have to call it luxury, everyone else in the automotive world is, you just can't accept it because it was made by Hyundai.
Blue Collar Luxury = Luxury that's attainable by Joe Six-Pack
For 40K you can get fully loaded Maxima, Avalon, non exclusive and provide good "blue collar luxury
Hmmmmmm...sorry, wrong answer. The Avalon & Maxima are near luxury (as already stated) and if that were the case, then why aren't they compared to the likes of Lexus or Infiniti cars like the Genesis is?
You are correct its not rocket science... class is a Merc (Marque), 1 and 3 series are BMW (Marque) first
At least you know what a marquee is, however...while MB and BMW are marquee nameplates, the Genesis is a marquee car made by an everyday nameplate. I know you can't stand that fact, but...it is reality...just accept it.
This is what I read somewhere:
Real Luxury buyers and "other car" buyers they both open their check book while they buy cars. The difference is real luxury buyers open it without knowing/caring for amount they have to write...more often its someone else writing it for them.
To a degree you're right, however...I know plenty of folks that drive E & S-Classes, 5 & 7-Series that went in looking for the best possible deal they could find.
When you buy lowly C class...you give an image of being associated with the first type...What do you associate Genesis with?
Is it superficial..You bet. Does it happen..you bet.
Of course it happens, to those that care about what their friends, family and neighbors think about the car buying decision.
In the end here is the acid test.
You drive up to a parking attendent in a Genesis and an S class..who do you think will get more attention?
Dunno, to be honest...probably the Genesis because S-Class sedans are so common they're nothing special. C & E-Classes are even MORE abundant, at least in my area so that would be even worse. The Genesis would get more attention hands down because it's not a car seen frequently. I know that based of the response received when I drove my Azera around when I first got it.
So actually...your case isn't rested because your point hasn't been proven in any light. You don't have to refrain from any more discussion because this has really been a good debate, but it's your call.
Indeed, the Genesis is a great car (considering who it's made by) for what it offers and the price point that it's offered at. I'm sorry to hear you had a negative experience with a salesman. Ultimately...that could be the one thing that truly hurts the Genesis, but hardly the car itself.
If its having all the amenities and doodads then any loaded car is a luxury (09 Maxima, Genesis, Azera, G8, etc)
If luxury is "IMAGE".. which it is in image conscious USA then Hyundai is NOT luxury...
Read any newspaper article. car magazine they talk about luxury nameplate like Merc/BMW/etc.... They dont talk about Luxury Car(s)
A loaded car does not a luxury car make, in terms of the Max, Avalon & G8...there's no ambiance of luxury when sitting in the cars. The Genesis however, has qualities inside that are on the level of what Lexus would put out (which has been documented).
Also, you're right...MB and BMW are talked about as luxury nameplates because everything they produce is in the luxury category. Hyundai won't be mentioned as a luxury nameplate because they don't produce luxury exclusive vehicles, however....the Genesis is luxury vehicle produced by everyday Hyundai, so the car itself gets talked about in terms of luxury. It's really not that hard.
Totally agree here
Okay...you TOTALLY agree to point #6, which stated that the Genesis is a smooth riding, quiet, well powered luxury sedan. So...here you admit the Genesis is a luxury sedan, but everywhere else you denounce it's luxury status. :confuse:
Thats EXACTLY WHAT IT IS...a BARGAIN
Ahhhhhhhhh...okay, so what makes it a bargain? Is it the fact that you can get the size of an S-Class, the amenities of an E-Class for the price of a C-Class? In short, you can get the luxury found in most mid-level luxury offerings by the premium brands for the price their entry level luxury cars fetch. You're right...that IS a bargain!!!
Let me tell you in the area I live in Rancho Santa Fe, CA no one will touch ANY hyundai with a 100 foot pole.
Here people buy S class Merc for their 16 year old kid... because they are now of driving age and S class is the safest vehicle out there... may be perception... may be reality.. who knows. They do it because they can!!!
Didn't want to put it so bluntly. Luxury has nothing to do with car its the psyche, Image, Superficiality, insecurity, etc etc... whatever you want to call it.
These folks ALSO buy C/E class, lexus, Infiniti, Acura to go in the real world under the radar...
Please accept my apologies if I have hurt you or anyone else on this board...but it looks like Hyundai lovers are oblivious of bizzarro world out there..That exists and is thriving and will continue to thrive.
Here people buy S class Merc for their 16 year old kid... because they are now of driving age and S class is the safest vehicle out there... may be perception... may be reality.. who knows. They do it because they can!!!
Didn't want to put it so bluntly. Luxury has nothing to do with car its the psyche, Image, Superficiality, insecurity, etc etc... whatever you want to call it.
These folks buy C/E class, lexus, Infiniti, Acura to go in the real world under the radar...
I believe you completely and I'm not disputing THAT fact. Obviously, they are not the targeted folks that Hyundai is going after...you completely miss my point. They definitely are not the average blue collar worker.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhh...how right you are, but how do you know that if you take someone that's used to owning Civics, Accents, Focuses, Cobalts and the like and put them in a Genesis...they feel like those folks driving around in the mid & upper level luxury sedans offered by the premium brands? Are you starting to understand?
I have never said that the Genesis would compete directly with the premium brands and pull sales from them...hardly. The fact is...the car can be compared (in many ways) to cars costing $10K and more. To someone that's used to what they get from an MB, BMW or what have you, they could care less about what the Genesis is all about, but take someone that can't get into a mid or upper level premium sedan and they'll think the world of a Genesis.
I've never owned a premium vehicle in my life, I've got friends that have and currently own them and even they raise their eyebrows when it comes to the Genesis. They say my car is nice, not great, just nice and to be honest...that's a compliment coming from them considering what they are used to. Does the Genesis make any of them want to give up what they have, I doubt it, but it's the first car made by an everyday automaker that actually catches the eye of some of them, that's more than the Avalon, Maxima, 300 or Azera does.
Also, the other thing that I do agree with is the customer service relating to the Genesis will certainly cause problems. How do you offer everyday service to a luxury car owner? It won't fly and will certainly tarnish the luxury image the Genesis is supposed to have. However, if they can turn it around and just offer luxury service to their entire line-up....it will definitely bolster the luxury label on the Genesis.
Just one more reason I am really glad I don't live in CA.
but it looks like Hyundai lovers are oblivious of bizzarro world out there..
I think you're right. People who own Hyundais, or at least can understand why someone would own one, more than likely live in the real world.
I think bizzaro comment was taken out of context...
In any event all I am trying to say that unless hyundai Motor company separate Genesis from Hyundai... it will not succeed. It might be a greatest car ever built. It has nothing to do with car
Lexus would not have been successful in image conscious USA if GS/LS was called Toyota Crown or Celsior..as they are/were called in Japan and sold alongside Tercel/Echo/Yaris.
I can understand why I would own a Hyuandai...I almost went to buy one...but the dealership in San Diego were rude...They do not know what "total ownership experince is"....
Here is a blurb about first gen LS
Shortly after its launch as the marque's inaugural and flagship vehicle, Lexus ordered a recall of the 8000 vehicles sold so far, based upon just two customer complaints. A dealership recalled that the "company didn't run and hide", instead launching a sweeping operation. Instead of asking owners to visit dealers, Lexus sent technicians to quickly pickup, repair, and return the LS cars to the customer, even flying in personnel and renting garage space for owners in remote locations. The general manager of Lexus USA said "We saw it as an opportunity to cement our relationship with the customer right from the beginning".[39]
Complete article can be found at
link title
Now that is ownership experience Genesis is competeing with or trying to compete with
If it's looked at from that perspective, there's a very good chance that the Genesis can be successful. However, the one reason it will be held down is the customer service related to it. I completely agree with you and whoever states that.
If Hyundai were to branch out and create a luxury division, then the knock against them would be that they are TRYING it. I mean, there will always be detractors that will find fault in every move they make. If they had jumped out there and created a luxury brand, then everyone would be saying how stupid they were and how much money they're gonna lose and that nobody would take them seriously because ultimately...Hyundai stands behind it. It's almost a no-win situation for Hyundai when it comes to those that aren't exactly fans of Hyundai to begin with.
So...instead of dumping millions of dollars creating that luxury division now, roll out a luxury car under their already pretty successful label, tweak it and evolve it to what it really should be and as it was said before, allow the reliability and durability records to grow for their line-up so they can be taken more seriously before venturing off down the luxury division path.
Personally...I think what they can do is create the luxury division and use the Azera as the entry level sedan, the Genesis sedan would be the flagship and you would also have the Genesis coupe and maybe the Veracruz to start out with 4 vehicles and grow from there. Just my opinion though.
Wow...if that don't like exactly what the Genesis is going through!!! The only difference is...the LS400 was rolled out as the inaugural sedan for a luxury brand and the Genesis is being rolled out as the flagship luxuy sedan for an everyday brand.
Shortly after its launch as the marque's inaugural and flagship vehicle, Lexus ordered a recall of the 8000 vehicles sold so far, based upon just two customer complaints. A dealership recalled that the "company didn't run and hide", instead launching a sweeping operation. Instead of asking owners to visit dealers, Lexus sent technicians to quickly pickup, repair, and return the LS cars to the customer, even flying in personnel and renting garage space for owners in remote locations. The general manager of Lexus USA said "We saw it as an opportunity to cement our relationship with the customer right from the beginning".
However, I doubt if this would be something that Hyundai would do and because they're not a luxury brand, it wouldn't be expected...smart on their part.
Basically...the history of the LS400 is saying that the Genesis can be successful, but a large part of that will depend on how the company stands behind it from a customer service standpoint...would you agree?
I am with you here.
Genesis as a car has all the right elements to be a highly successful. Its attractive, Sheet metal is classy and in my mind will stand the test of time, rides well, etc etc... but accent/elantra etc will bring it down because financially speaking you cannot provide a service and not charge for it somehow.
Its easy to pad customer service in a 40K car then in 10K car.
Hyundai should have, as you suggested, floated a new brand with a clones Azera, Cloned veracruz, and Genesis as a flagship..
or they may decide to slowly shift Accent/Elantra to Kia and Hyundai might become a premium brand... That is a long shot because of previous baggage
No - probably DUMB on their part even in the hypothetical. This type of thing is exactly what any manufacturer would want to if it wants yto change its image and further be recognized as something it is plainly not. Also, DUMB on their part: telling a prospective customer that their car is too good for him - this from one of the brands that spends more time dealing with the lower extremes of the car market than perhaps anybody else. In any case, as a few of us will tell you - 'luxury' cars come from 'luxury' brands AND conversely there can never be a 'luxury' car sold by a 'non luxury' manufacturer regardless of how 'luxurious' that car may or may not be. Which is why the Genesis isn't what you think it is....
Yep, Hyundai could have learned something just by reading this little Wiki blurb - but maybe you are right - they want to make history, not learn from it???
Genesis as a car has all the right elements to be a highly successful. Its attractive, Sheet metal is classy and in my mind will stand the test of time, rides well, etc etc... but accent/elantra etc will bring it down because financially speaking you cannot provide a service and not charge for it somehow.
Its easy to pad customer service in a 40K car then in 10K car.
Indeed...the Genesis is far from offensive in looks in any way. As far as the Accent and Elantra...why would those have to bring it down, why can't the Genesis bring them up. I mean...think about it...even though they are commuter cars, imagine owners of such benefitting from luxury-like treatment when they bring their cars in. If the cars are truly more dependable and require less trips to the shop, then it can't be that difficult to "pad" customer service. Then, not only would Hyundai blaze a new path with having a luxury car in their stable, they would be the first company to offer luxury-like treatment all the way down their line regardless of the price of the vehicle. How's that for cutting edge!
From my understanding, Kia is actually going it's own path in terms of vehicles...trying to separate from Hyundai in some fashion. I mean...creating their own identity.
If Hyundai can continue on the path they are on, they can slowly shed that past baggage.
Is that what you dealt with? WOW...even I'm amazed by that. Dumb would actually be an understatement in regards to that.
Why isn't the Genesis what we think it is? Conversely, I think it's actually not what YOU want it to be.
You keep saying a luxury car can only be sold by a luxury brand and, well...er, uh...sorry to inform you, but...Hyundai is pulling it off so far. The car itself IS a luxury car. If it were sat on a platform with no badging or any way to tell who made it, folks would indeed think it's a luxury sedan. If they were asked to guess how much it would be priced, I'm sure they would put well above $40K, probably in the $50K range, but...because there's that italicized "H" on the trunk lid...you're telling me that car can't be a luxury car? :confuse: It is what it is and there's nothing you can do to change it.
At any rate, Toyota created history with Lexus and the LS400. As you stated, they weren't as financially able as they are now, they took that chance and it paid off. At some point, Hyundai has to take a gamble. Until now, everything they've done has been safe moves. While the Genesis may not be mind boggling, it's impact thus far is undeniable. The real question that remains..."Is Hyundai ready for the ride or did they forget to fasten their seatbelts?"
I applaud your utopian outlook...I really do.
However how do Hyundai pays for better customer service?
Currently I have an Infiniti...I take it to the dealer for oil change. I drop my car off at 7:00 AM. They give me a loaner. I pick my car up at 6:00PM. I pay $50.00 for the service. Expensive YES.. worth my time YES NOW...
Back when I was in Grad school.. in I had a Mazda 323..I use to use coupons for oil change $9.99 and two to three hours at the shop.. Worth it in terms of time & Money...YES THEN...
At that timeI would have laughed at someone trying to rip me off with a $50.00 oil change.
Its easier to charge $50.00 for oil change from a person who buys 40K car then from a person who buys 10K car.
And the service managers/sales person are also tuned/wired differently. It might sound superficial...but thats how the society is. Try going to a open house in a Accent/Echo/Sentra and wearing shorts, flip flops, & Tank top... and you probably will be ignored by the agent (even in todays market) Do so in an Lexus ES, business casual, possibly with the family... and it will be a whole lot difference...
Utopian??? :confuse:
However how do Hyundai pays for better customer service?
What are you talking about...providing better service isn't something that has to be charged for. If anything it starts with change, as in changing the attitudes of the service managers & techs. They need to realize they have jobs because of the folks that purchase cars, we shouldn't be a burden as we did not force them to take the job they have. Heck, I believe that in any line of work. I hate going to McDonalds and after they place your order in the bag and roll the top down, they get an attitude when you ask for some packs of ketchup or sauce and they blow their breath like you just messed up their whole day. All they had to do was ask, "Do you need anything else to comlete your order?" Again, if you are in a certain line of work, provide the best customer service you can as you're the one that applied for that job.
Currently I have an Infiniti...I take it to the dealer for oil change. I drop my car off at 7:00 AM. They give me a loaner. I pick my car up at 6:00PM. I pay $50.00 for the service. Expensive YES.. worth my time YES NOW...
First of all...that $50 is going towards synthetic oil and an OEM filter. The loaner isn't costing them a thing as the car will be sold as a demo. So...Hyundai could do the same thing, however their oil change would only cost about $40 and they could still provide the same service you receive with Infiniti.
Also, you have think about something...your Mazda 323 was using about 4 qts. of conventional oil at less then $1/qt. The filter may have been $4...so that's about right. Based on the price of synthetic oil now...$50 is a bargain depending on how many quarts your car takes.
So...what I'm saying is...an oil change for the Accents & Elantras wouldn't cost $50 because they wouldn't be using the same type or amount of product.
Personally, they may initally ignore me based on what I pulled up in, but the man I am will quickly overcome that. You see...I don't worry what one thinks based on what I pull up in, it's a matter of the impression I leave after dealing with someone. Personally, I like having folks think less of me because of what I drive, then I have the opportunity to blow them away when they get to know ME.
In other words, I don't allow my car to define who I am as a man.
You pay for everything....
Once your emplyee get better you have to pay them more or else they leave...
If you pay like a monkey you will get a monkey...and try getting human service from a monkey.
You pay (Housing cost) for fresh air you breathe by living in good part of town.
Getting good service comes at a cost. You have to hire/train right person and try to keep them. Even in these days of high unemployment it is VERY DIFFICULT to get someone with good work ethics
Maybe out in Cali you have to pay more for a house to get better air to breathe, but here on the East coast...we don't deal with smog.
What I'm saying is...the service managers can provide better service by changing their attitude. Again, THEY are the ones that applied for those jobs, so obviously they wanted to work there...so act like it.
On the flip side, good customer service can be rewarded with bonuses and awards. Don't play with me, I worked in retail and customer service for years and I always made sure I provided the best possible experience for any customer no matter what I was doing, regardless of my pay level. At some point...take pride in yourself...it does have a way of paying off in the long run. Heck in retail, I had a customer base that would only buy from me even though there were other qualified sales reps, but because of the experience I provided...they would wait for me to be in to buy and they spread the word...so guess who got more bonuses and awards even though our base pay was still the same? Riiiiiiiiiiiight!
You're right, it is hard to find folks with good work ethics because we live in a very lazy time. Folks are always lookin for shortcuts and easy ways out and they still want a pat on the back or something extra in their pocket. I guess I'm just too old school in my way of thinking when it comes to customer service. Maybe I'm wrong for holding others to my expectations of what I would provide if I were in their shoes. Bottom line is...a simple chane in attitude can make a world of difference and costs nothing at all. If anything, THEY would reap the rewards of it while the customers enjoyed the change. Trust me...I know I'm right on this.
I'm curious then, what exact 'impact' are you talking about. It's sure as heck not setting the world on fire sales-wise, and while it definitely is a car with the 'right stuff' from a spec sheet perspective, it has not been 'raved' about' (unless you read thru rose colored glasses). Furthermore it is a completely new car with no established track record reliability wise - good or bad. Well reviewed and generally well received for sure but you guys talk about it like it's the second coming
I could sit you down inside any number of 'flagship' cars from Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Chevy,Ford etc etc. and get you thinking you are in a 'luxury' car - by your definition - when in fact you're sitting in something less than that. As Sanjay so correctly stated, being a 'luxury' car has little to do with the car itself.
A good example of this is the current crop of Lincolns being sold out there - nothing more than rebadged Fords with lots and lots of worthless 'bling' at a stiff price premium, but still having that 'luxury car ' image (to most folks) , when the fact is that Ford has cheapened the whole line to some point beyond recognition. The Genesis is a luxury car wanabe (just like that Phaeton (or Millenia) were) and will continue to be as long as it is labelled and sold as it is and also regardless of how much Lincoln-like bling they put on it , the Lincolns are simply luxury car atrocities!
Huh :confuse: you would pay the same price for a car with 10 miles on it as you would for that 'demo' with 3 or 4000 on it? Of course, that loaner costs them money, and we haven't even begun to add the insurance costs or the time value of money as that car spends the extra time in inventory.
My dear Captain...the Genesis is the first Hyundai product to come out that has raised brand awareness. No other Hyundai product shares that distinction. The Azera came in with no fanfare at all. The Sonata, while 20 years old, no big to do was made about it when it was refreshed for the better in '02 and completely redone for '06 even thought it's been the most solid performer in the Hyundai stable. Veracruz...came along like the Azera. Entourage...there folks out there to this day that aren't even aware that Hyundai has a mini-van.
I could sit you down inside any number of 'flagship' cars from Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Chevy,Ford etc etc. and get you thinking you are in a 'luxury' car - by your definition - when in fact you're sitting in something less than that.
Actually...you couldn't. I've sat in every car you've mentioned and no...there is no level of luxury that you get when sitting in the Genesis. You may not want to accept it, but it's the truth. At best, the flagship sedans by Toyota, Honda & Nissan are near luxury as already stated many times.
As far as luxury not having anything to do with the car itself is a bunch of B.S. If MB took an Azera and slapped a 3 pointed star on it, the car wouldn't automatically become a luxury car. It would still be a near luxury sedan made by a luxury badge.
Come on, say it with me, "The Genesis IS a luxury car." LOL
Seriously...you guys are so far in denial it's not even funny. Try as you may to dismiss the Genesis as a luxury car, it is what it is. I'm just sorry you can't, won't or simply just choose not to see it.
Exactly my point... The dealer ship has to make money. That is the primary purpose of any business... TO MAKE MONEY FOR ITS OWNERS/SHAREHOLDERS
So to offset the cost of:
1) Loaner
2) Nicely decorated waiting area's with 2 to three news papers and non-rag magazine
3) Donuts & Coffee..and sometimes sandwiches for the people who wait
4) Free secure internet connection if you want to work while you wait
5) Nice pay for people who are courtious, have good at what they do, and KNOWLEDGEABLE...and will make customer feel comfertable
You have to charge them.
As I said earlier that its easier to charge $50.00 for oil change from a person buying 40K then from person who buys $10K car
So to offset the cost of:
1) Loaner
2) Nicely decorated waiting area's with 2 to three news papers and non-rag magazine
3) Donuts & Coffee..and sometimes sandwiches for the people who wait
4) Free secure internet connection if you want to work while you wait
5) Nice pay for people who are courtious, have good at what they do, and KNOWLEDGEABLE...and will make customer feel comfertable
You have to charge them.
As I said earlier that its easier to charge $50.00 for oil change from a person buying 40K then from person who buys $10K car
Actually...you missed the point. If they are into making money, then the loaner would be a liability to them. My point was...they amount of money they make with the service department offsets the loss they may take on the loaners.
Anyway...go to Alexandria Hyundai and you'll find a big screen tv with Direct TV hooked up to it, customer use computer with internet access, a coffee/tea/hot chocolate machine and plenty of periodicals/magazine (all non-rag) and newspapers for waiting customers to read. The waiting area could be nicer, but I believe they are actually in the process of remodeling...so the jury is out.
With the amount that luxury dealers charge for their services...they should be providing the extras. However, you said an oil change for you is $50, which...if they're using conventional oil...you're getting ripped and you should be diving in to all the donuts, sandwhiches and coffee they have to offer. If it's synthetic oil, then you're getting a bargain.
As far as nice pay for the techs and such...well, they continue to work there and I'm sure they're qualified to work elsewhere, so the pay must be good. Knowledgeable...depends on what dealership you go to and that has nothing to do with pay, that has everything to do with someone taking pride in their work. If you act like you don't know squat, you get paid squat. When you show yourself to be knowledgeable...you get the extra money, bonuses and awards.
Again...it all starts with attitude, change the attitudes and everything else falls into line.
You drive up to a parking attendent in a Genesis and an S class..who do you think will get more attention?
Probably the Genesis because not many people have had the opportunity to see one in person, and most wouldn't even know what it was. The car does have "presence," and that alone will garner it attention. Once the attendant(s) find out "It's a Hyundai?!? :surprise: ," it will get even more attention.
May be I should rephrase it
You drive up to a parking attendent in a Genesis and an C/E-class..who do you think will get more attention?
See above...
I must say that its a great car and I almost (yes almost) bought it..was turned off by salesman comment...
So, basically, you're taking your anger out on the car just because of an idiotic comment by a ding-dong of a salesman. :sick:
"The IIHS hasn't tested (or released results) for the Genesis yet. For some reason, they seem slow to test Hyundais. For example, the current Elantra debuted about 2 years ago and they still haven't done the side impact test on it."
backy here is a link to the five star crash test:
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2008/08/2009-hyundai-ge.html
As you might guess, with eight air bags it got the highest rating possible.
Luxury car is whole package...atleast in my mind
First it will be a ding dong sales man...
Then it will be a ding dong service manager.. who will say what do you expect...You bought a Hyundai..
Then it will be a ding dong tech who will leave greasy foot prints..etc etc..
I am not saying all this will happen...or if it doesnt happen at other dealerships.
If during the SALES they treat you like this imagine what will happen when they have your money and you are stuck...
Yes I know you can go to a different dealer etc etc...& I know there are few out there.. How much are you willing to search for them?
Its in the attitude and I am extremely sad to say that service is NOT an American concept...
Also Japanese knew in advance whom they were dealing with-status-conscious, fickle Americans. Do you really think the Lexus would have done well as $60-$70k Toyota?
I think this discussion has run its course...So I better shut up before the moderator shuts me up!!!..PEACE
The local Toyota dealer charges $30 for an oil and filter change on the same Lexus and does it in 30 minutes or its free.
The only car dealership in this area that provides loaner cars at all is Lexus, but I have not dealt with BMW, MB, etc.
Of course it does, but that does not change the fact that 'loaners' provided at any dealer do cost money....
My Toyota dealer does not provide a loaner except for when the car is in for something they didn't fix right the first time and even then what I get is a Corolla thru a Toyota specific rental car company that offices at the dealership
- the Lexus dealer down the street would provide me a loaner if I took it over there to get washed
Regardless, Hyundai will never be a luxury make, even though it may sell luxury cars, just as Avalon never will be.
In today's enviroment, Hyundai cannot afford to create a new "Make."
'Low end' dealers will have much lower expectations put on them that the true 'luxury' dealer would - think Hyundai/Toyota vs. Lexus/Infiniti.
As you and I both seem to understand the day that the Genesis becomes a 'luxury' car will definitely be tied to the day that the Hyundai dealer becomes like a Lexus dealer (and he is generally regarded as such) - and not be related at all to the 'power ejection seat' fru-fru that has nothing to do with 'luxury' at all. That day is still a long way off IMO. You can't change an unfortunate image that took Hyundai, in this case, more than 20 years to cultivate, with one better car in one year. The parallels to the LS400 are similar as far as the sheetmetal goes- but they ignore two of the most important differences - Toyota did not have 20 years (or 10 or 15) of a bad reputation to live down, and nor was the car a 'Toyota' in the first place, it was a 'Lexus'.
you may be right - and it is certainly not a good time to be selling big sedans with 300 hp+ engines. The timing stinks. BUT, I'll contend that Hyundai MUST find some way to differentiate the Genesis from the rest of its product line. They are advertising the heck out of the car lately and these ads that compare the car with something else (usually German) and then, turn around and close by saying 'surprise, it's a Hyundai'. This is exactly the wrong thing to do and only perpetuates that lack of differentiation.