Midsize Sedans 2.0

stickguy

WRX? I'm afraid to drive one. Unless I have the money to buy!

backy

cski said:

... If you want the very best small hatchback it's the Honda Fit. ...

It's all relative. In terms of storage capacity/flexibility, sure. But if you want a sporty, good-handling hatch that's also fuel-efficient, a better choice IMO would be the Mazda3 or Golf TDI. The Impreza, Forte5 (200 hp turbo available!), and Elantra GT are very nice hatches also, albeit not with "Magic Seats" like the Fit. And the Focus SE is a great value in a nice-handling and fuel-efficient hatch. Then there's the Fiesta ST, for a lot of fun-per-dollar. Different strokes (and hatches) for different folks.

[Deleted User]

My brother in law is the only person I know that drives faster than me. We have both had hospital -level wrecks, and I am proud of none of it...just background for the story.

He bought a WRX about 10 years ago and pushed it hard (he had the wagon version...I thought it was super-ugly). Until I drove it. Wow! It sticks to the road like glue. Anyway, he never wrecked it, had two kids, and bought (was forced to buy by his other half) a Grand Cherokee V8 (04).

I had a 99 Grand Cherokee V8 by sheer coincidence. Never wrecked it.

So my dear mid size friends, the Grand Cherokee was a nice driving, powerful, safe family truckster. .

So why am I talking about SUV's? Well, I am really talking about AWD/4x4 and how much safer I felt with it. I believe it made a difference in having or not having an accident it seems. So, I would really like AWD on my next car, but I have grown up a bit in 10 years.

So, If I was to buy a AWD mid size it would have to be the Legacy AWD, the Fusion 2.0T AWD, and thats about it.


However, I would really like some advice on a sporty car ,my wife and kids can put up with.....but I think I already found it. The Optima Turbo.

[Deleted User]

cski said:

backy said:

I owned an '82 Celica GT Liftback, ice blue. My first stick shift. Bought it new. Loved that car. Got rear-ended by a garbage truck, and never seemed to drive quite the same after that.

I've been thinking of getting an RSX when the lease on my Rio expires. Not that expensive and a lot more fun than something like a Rio.

I bet there was a lot less back seat space after that rear ender too....

I almost forgot. The Celica GT (3rd generation 1983) I rode in with a neighbor was the first car with a 4 cylinder that felt like a V6 (from the seat of my pants as a older teenager. It made almost no exhaust noise, and felt like it had a ton of torque.Maybe that engine was the precursor to all these high power 2.4 and 2.5 engines. Made for cars that could be outfitted with 6 cylinder models, but really didn't need them. I have 200 HP. Sometimes it feels like 150, other times 220. All I can say is that my mother, kids, and wife were not in the picture....that blaish-green Mustang with the track pack would be sitting out front. 310 HP for $27k? 320 lb ft of torque? Geez the thing only weighs 2400 lbs.

stickguy

Mustang is more like 3500#s

explorerx4

Motorweek today.Not sure if it is new, 10 2015 mid size sedans comparison. #1 Sonata, #2 Legacy, #10 Camry. More details on cars.com

ab348

explorerx4 said:

Motorweek today.Not sure if it is new, 10 2015 mid size sedans comparison. #1 Sonata, #2 Legacy, #10 Camry. More details on cars.com

Yeah, that made the rounds a couple of weeks ago. Much controversy on the internets.

backy

I can understand how the Sonata could take 1st place in this comparo. It was supposedly based on what "a real family" wants/needs in a mid-sized car--not on what auto mag editors like. So there were criteria such as Comfort, Trunk & In-Cabin Storage, Noise, and Child-Safety Seats--categories that aren't high priority for the auto mags, but are for families.

Not only did the Camry SE finish last, but the Accord EX finished 8th!

Also, I think it's interesting that all the cars met or beat their EPA overall FE estimates in the test, except the Accord and Malibu.

Here's the link:
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2014/11/whats-the-best-midsize-sedan-for-27000.html

stickguy

that reminds me. Last week when the discussion happened I went and set that to record. Should go watch it.

stickguy

I just read that link. Sonata did run away with it. hard to argue with the categories that it won.

dudleyr

That is a crazy article. The Legacy is a great vehicle, but it is by far the slowest of those vehicles in I4 form. Rating it second is just a lie.

CR said the Legacy has the best ride of any car in its class (rating it excellent). This report has it ranked near the bottom.

I give this report no credibility. Just a bunch of really strange nit picks.

backy

Maybe these testers drove the Legacy with a heavy foot.

The scoring categories were Worth the Money (i.e. Value), Handling, Acceleration, MPG, Ride, Interior Quality, Comfort, Tech, Trunk & In-Cabin Storage, Noise, and Child-Safety Seats. I don't see how any of those are "nits" for a family looking for a mid-sized sedan.

akirby

Maybe this report is right and CR has no credibility.

Honestly - there is no objective way to measure this stuff that's realistic and accurate. So much of a car experience is subjective and subject to individual preferences that any kind of ranking based on such things is pretty worthless.

Just take the actual comments with a grain of salt and as one viewpoint when compared with others. Even if every reviewers says something is bad you may not care about it or you may feel differently.

stickguy

If you watch the episode, you get a good idea why they ranked the top the way they did. And slaughtered the Camry.

thebean

Let's face it - there are a bunch of really good cars in this comparo.  Probably not a real dog in the bunch.  It comes down to personal preference and what you value in a car.  I bought a new Accord EX because I liked it better than anything else I drove plus I have had good luck with Honda reliability and resale in the past.  The comparo results were not important to me - my research and feel were what drove my decision.  

I would not deride anyone buying any of these cars.  To each their own.

Bean

stickguy

I came real close to getting a 2014.5 Camry instead, because I liked the seats and how it test drove. At this point, even the "losers" are damned fine cars. So buy what feels good to you.

backy

Exactly. Like 2 years ago when I leased a 2013 Sonata for my wife. Was it the best mid-sized car available at that time? I don't think so. But we've been very happy with it, it's exceeded expectations, and I got a great deal on the lease (and got rid of a beat-up 2007 Sonata painlessly). I wouldn't hesitate to get a new Sonata next year (assuming a good deal) if that's the kind of vehicle we wanted after the lease is up--but we're going for a small SUV next time. But if looking for a new mid-sizer, I'd also look closely at the Accord, Mazda6, Optima, Legacy, and Fusion.

carandetc

Would a corolla be considered a mid size sedan?
I just rented one and the rental company labeled it as mid size.

I feel it could be considered sporty but "under radar". Remember those first Audi Wagons V8? or the first WRX? Nobody suspected what is under their hood.

Anyways, Corolla has no power of V8 or the handling of WRX
but when I hit the red line 6500, I actually forgot what car I am driving.

Who would suspect this car can zoom by a V6?
My car had a 4 speed Auto so just down shift to 2 or L, and rev it up, not sure if you can do that with a CVT.

I was also surprised how it keeps the line, never had the feeling it will flip over.
the steering is kind of sporty stiff almost thought it doesn't have power.
The suspension could use some stiffer springs but I think there is a model S with sports suspension.

So overall your wife and kids would enjoy the comfortable and spacious ride,
once you drop them off and hit 5-6000 rpm, I could feel like in a sporty but affordable sedan.

stickguy

must have been the prior generation. The current model does have a CVT.

Rental car companies have their own "unique" definition of size. Surprised they didn't consider it a full size!

but actually, a number of the compacts today are pretty close to the mid size class of a few generations ago.

explorerx4

I know the current Corolla has lots of interior room, but the drivetrain is still 20 years old.

backy

Yep, rental companies are one size up on cars. So cars like the Fiesta are compacts, cars like the Cruze, Focus, and Corolla are mid-sized, and cars like the Camry and Sonata are full-sized. Not sure what they consider a real full-sized car like the Avalon to be!

There is a 4-speed automatic variant of the current Corolla that is most likely aimed at fleet use.

zandor60657

backy said:

I can understand how the Sonata could take 1st place in this comparo. It was supposedly based on what "a real family" wants/needs in a mid-sized car--not on what auto mag editors like. So there were criteria such as Comfort, Trunk & In-Cabin Storage, Noise, and Child-Safety Seats--categories that aren't high priority for the auto mags, but are for families.

Not only did the Camry SE finish last, but the Accord EX finished 8th!

Also, I think it's interesting that all the cars met or beat their EPA overall FE estimates in the test, except the Accord and Malibu.

Here's the link:
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2014/11/whats-the-best-midsize-sedan-for-27000.html

Newer is better, right? Except for the VW Passat and Chrysler 200 they ranked the designs in order of age. Here are the cars in the order they ranked them with the year of their last full redesign:

2015 Hyundai Sonata
2015 Subaru Legacy
2012 Volkswagen Passat
2014 Mazda 6
2013 Chevrolet Malibu
2013 Ford Fusion
2015 Chrysler 200
2013 Honda Accord
2013 Nissan Altima
2012 Toyota Camry

Ever since the US auto makers woke up and started making decent cars and Hyundai started doing the same thing competition has heated up quite a bit. Is it any surprise the newer designs are 1-upping older ones? Just give it a few years and I bet the Camry and Passat will be on top for a year, then Honda and Nissan will do their redesigns... and so on.

backy

However, the Passat was the oldest design in the test and finished 3rd, and the Camry was significantly refreshed for 2015 and finished last. Also the new 200 finished 7th. In general, new designs should best older designs. But not always.

From what I've seen about the 2016 Passat, it wouldn't surprise me to see it on top of the class when it comes out.

suydam

This is just one group's ranking. Others have ranked them differently. They are all good cars; it's pretty subjective at this point. So people have a lot of choices. For me Honda was the best choice. But others here have found that a different make was better for them.

nyccarguy

suydam said:

This is just one group's ranking. Others have ranked them differently. They are all good cars; it's pretty subjective at this point. So people have a lot of choices. For me Honda was the best choice. But others here have found that a different make was better for them.

Well said. All the cars in the segment are good, there isn't a bad choice. They also each do something outstanding. That one "thing" that the mid sizer excels at is what draws people to it. AWD & durability were important to me, so the Legacy was basically a no brainer for me. If AWD wasn't a top priority, I could easily see myself driving an Accord, Passat TDI, Mazda6, or even a Malibu

akirby

Why wasn't the Fusion AWD considered along with the Legacy? Just curious.

dudleyr

akirby said:

Why wasn't the Fusion AWD considered along with the Legacy? Just curious.

$27,000 was the price limit.

akirby

So in reality PRICE, AWD and reliability were a concern to you.

m6user

He was talking about the criteria for the comparison test being discussed. They kept each model to $27k or below. So, obviously, the Fusion with AWD came in more than that. I don't think anyone that is shopping in the midsize sedan category is not concerned about price. Billionaires may or may not care about price but then again they probably wouldn't be shopping in this category either.

akirby

I was responding to nyccarguy in the post above and thought he was saying that he had a $27K limit when he bought the legacy AWD. I see now it was dudleyr instead.

nyccarguy

@akirby‌

Even though you weren't responding to me, yes. Price, AWD, & Reliability were very important factors (probably the 3 most) in my decision. I had a budget of less than $27K. I ended up buying my Legacy for $23,800 plus tax. I'm happy with the car and what I got for the price I paid. I do wish for some more power though;)

m6user

My wife finally had time to drive the Accord, Camry and Legacy yesterday. The Legacy is in very short supply right now. The dealer we went to only had two and they were both demos. He just delivered one to a guy that ordered it in October.

Anyway, she wants to drive them all one more time before she makes a decision but she ranked them so far Camry SE, Legacy Premium, Accord LX. We drove both the Accord Sport and the LX and we both(I sat in back) found the LX to be much quieter and I assume the main culprit is probably the 18" tires vs. the 16" on the LX. Also it's possible the dual exhaust adds a little more engine growl but it was definitely lounder. She also didn't think the radio sounded as good in the Accord vs. Camry and also didn't ride as smooth. She wants a smooth, quiet ride and ease of use. She found the controls on the Camry to be a little more intuative FOR HER and she actually really liked the way it looked. The Legacy radio system confused her quite a bit although she liked the sound. She doesn't care about the AWD at all. She's been driving in Chicago for 40 years with either RWD or FWD and doesn't have a problem as long as her tires have good tread.

I know the Camry is hated in here and sometimes I think it gets to the extreme and a little childish actually. It's called piling on in football,. It really isn't a bad car at all. I personally would chose the Accord for a number of reasons one of which is that is somewhat familiar as I currently drive an Acura. These cars are all appliances and I don't mean that derogatorily and it's possible the Camry is a little more "appliance" than the others. But, it seems to have a lot of the things that people that just want a quiet, dependable commute to work want. That's pretty much what my wife wants. She doesn't really like to drive all that much.

Funny thing happened when we drove the Legacy. We took it out by ourselves and I asked her why she had the driver's seat so low as it looked like she was sitting in a hole. She said it was alright. After a couple of miles I again said she should adjust her seat. She admitted she didn't know how and I told her to just pull up on the knob that also adjusts for forward and rear travel(power seat). She was shocked when it rose up, up, up. She then asked me if the Mazda6 which she has driven for the past 6 years could do that and I said yes it can! She also didn't realize that the steering wheel on the Mazda could be moved both up/down and telescopically. Like I said, she likes the simple, ease of use she apparently found in the Camry. And no she's not a dummy, she makes 6 figures but just gets in the car and drives and doesn't mess around with it much. You should have seen her face when the salesman tried to explain the CVT to her. Classic!

It just goes to show you that some people just don't care a whole lot about the bells and whistles and latest stuff but just want to get from point A to point B safely, cheaply and dependably.

stickguy

from what you listed as her criteria, sounds like the perfect Camry buyer. But why the SE? lower profile tires and some odd plastic attachments don't seem like things that would matter to her.]

but dang, not knowing the seat could be raised? talk about car Luddite! You should have done a better job showing her around how the thing works.

I did like the Camry XLE though. The last time I stopped, if I had actually taken the time to get an updated price, I may have brought that home instead. As long as you don't expect anything exciting, good to go.

m6user

She hasn't completely decided yet and that's why she wants to drive them all again. Believe it or not she actually likes the grill on the Camry SE a lot better than the grill on the LE as they are completely different. She also wants alloy wheels which come on the SE but the LE has wheel covers. I think there is a couple other little differences too and the price difference is only about $900.

Yeah, as far as the seat goes, she knew it had a power seat and I assumed (like pretty much anybody would) that it would be obvious. There is no obvious when it comes to some women and mechanical items. When I went to the Gulf War on short notice I quickly showed her exactly how to start the snowblower and use it. Very simple, right? Well, when I got back 5 months later it had never been started and she had shoveled when necessary. Luckily, it was a light winter in Chicago that year!

I guess that's the problem with a lot of us that visit and post on these forums. We know quite a bit about all the vehicles and what they offer and take it for granted that the most simple things are understood by everybody. Well, they aren't sometimes. I just read an article of an elderly couple in New Zealand that locked themselves in their new Mazda3 for 13 hours and almost died. Getting out was simple but they couldn't figure it out in their panic. Always train to the lowest common denominator.

nyccarguy

@m6user‌

Funny you should mention the Legacy being in short supply. When I went back to the dealer about a month after I bought the car to pick up my plates (I live in CT & bought the car in NY), I was talking to my sales guy. He told me they are having trouble getting their hands on 2015 Legacys. He even joked with me that if I wanted to he would have his GM pay me to use my car to send out in test drives on a Saturday;)

Thanks for the update on your wife's car shopping.

thebean

m6user said:

My wife finally had time to drive the Accord, Camry and Legacy yesterday. The Legacy is in very short supply right now. The dealer we went to only had two and they were both demos. He just delivered one to a guy that ordered it in October. Anyway, she wants to drive them all one more time before she makes a decision but she ranked them so far Camry SE, Legacy Premium, Accord LX. We drove both the Accord Sport and the LX and we both(I sat in back) found the LX to be much quieter and I assume the main culprit is probably the 18" tires vs. the 16" on the LX. Also it's possible the dual exhaust adds a little more engine growl but it was definitely lounder. She also didn't think the radio sounded as good in the Accord vs. Camry and also didn't ride as smooth. She wants a smooth, quiet ride and ease of use. She found the controls on the Camry to be a little more intuative FOR HER and she actually really liked the way it looked. The Legacy radio system confused her quite a bit although she liked the sound. She doesn't care about the AWD at all. She's been driving in Chicago for 40 years with either RWD or FWD and doesn't have a problem as long as her tires have good tread. I know the Camry is hated in here and sometimes I think it gets to the extreme and a little childish actually. It's called piling on in football,. It really isn't a bad car at all. I personally would chose the Accord for a number of reasons one of which is that is somewhat familiar as I currently drive an Acura. These cars are all appliances and I don't mean that derogatorily and it's possible the Camry is a little more "appliance" than the others. But, it seems to have a lot of the things that people that just want a quiet, dependable commute to work want. That's pretty much what my wife wants. She doesn't really like to drive all that much. Funny thing happened when we drove the Legacy. We took it out by ourselves and I asked her why she had the driver's seat so low as it looked like she was sitting in a hole. She said it was alright. After a couple of miles I again said she should adjust her seat. She admitted she didn't know how and I told her to just pull up on the knob that also adjusts for forward and rear travel(power seat). She was shocked when it rose up, up, up. She then asked me if the Mazda6 which she has driven for the past 6 years could do that and I said yes it can! She also didn't realize that the steering wheel on the Mazda could be moved both up/down and telescopically. Like I said, she likes the simple, ease of use she apparently found in the Camry. And no she's not a dummy, she makes 6 figures but just gets in the car and drives and doesn't mess around with it much. You should have seen her face when the salesman tried to explain the CVT to her. Classic! It just goes to show you that some people just don't care a whole lot about the bells and whistles and latest stuff but just want to get from point A to point B safely, cheaply and dependably.

Have her drive the Accord EX.  IMHO there is a significant difference in the ride vs the LX.  I didn't want a sunroof, but after driving the LX & EX, the EX was so much better, the sunroof became a non-issue.  I also drove the Camry LE and for me the Accord EX was the choice.  The 17" wheels on the EX made a pretty big difference in the ride.  The upholstery in the LX looked cheap to me - the EX was nicer by far.  Plus, the blind spot monitor in the EX is great.  

I I know I sound like a Honda fanboy, and I apologize for that, but the EX is really very nice and I'm in love with mine (only had it a week but I think I will remain in love).  I'm tall, but the I have plenty of headroom even with the sunroof. 

As always, your mileage may vary.

Regards, 

Bean

suydam

I've had my EX-L a year and a half and I still love it. Hondas are for those who like a slightly firmer ride, although maybe not as much as the Mazda. I feel more confident in its handling that way. It is extremely comfortable on long drives. If you like a cushy ride the Camry or Nissan Altima is probably the way to go. I haven't driven a Sonata so can't speak to that car.

m6user

My wife has driven a Mazda6 for 6.5 years so I think she knows how a little sharper handling feels. She does like it very much but as we all know in here, the Mazda6 and the Accord are not the quietest cars for road noise even though they have both improved in that area. Others have improved as well so it's all relative it seems. And I just got through test driving both and they are better but not as quiet as some of the others.

And, after driving the Mazda6 which has been trouble free for all those years, she wants something softer riding and quieter. I tested the Altima but the interior seemed really old and in need of a revision and the CVT, even though having been used by Nissan so many years, still seemed more "whiny" than either the Accord or the Legacy tranny. Like I said what I might like as more of an auto nut is different from what she wants and this will be her car.

Originally the Mazda6 was bought as a second car for me but shortly after purchase she took it over because because gas was hitting $4.00 a gallon and she had a long commute. So she passed off her Infiniti QX4 to me as I didn't have to commute much. I ended up enjoying the QX4 very much which is probably why I bought the Acura RDX I'm driving. The golf clubs/cart fit perfectly in the rear and I'm always ready if the weather permits!

suydam

We definitely found the Altima CVT to be whiny. Accord is very quiet. It drives like any other auto trans. I will say the Camry controls were quite simple and intuitive. It does feel like a larger car compared to Honda or Mazda. It's all a matter or priorities. Any of them should be quite reliable.

brian125

The Accord is a lot quieter than previous years and such a leap forward in every aspect. I found my 2013 V-6 Accord the best choice out of the lot. The V-6 Altima was my runner up to the Accord in 2013.
The new Camry and Malibu have the best road noise isolation out of the group mentioned. But both fell short in my eyes.

It actually seem to me the Malibu rode almost as good as the Accord if not better. Legroom was bad in the Malibu. What knocks Malibu out of the box is... its a GM product with terrible resale. Good car to lease not own

suydam

Legroom is surprisingly poor in the Malibu. I took my 6'4" son car shopping and he barely fit in the Malibu. I think he will be getting an Impala. All the midsizers are kinda tight for him.

brian125

The new Impala scares me. Side and rear visibility is awful. I drove one 6 months ago.

suydam

He's looking at the older one, maybe 2 or 3 years old. Visibility seemed pretty good in those. He is not a car person. His current ride is a '98 LeSabre with bench front seats. He likes cars very plain with little technology. So a 2012 or so Impala would do quite well. And they are cheap!

brian125

A..... 2/3 year old Impala has much better visibility. You will get a good deal on one.

I'm almost 6'2 leg and hip room are very important to me also. There are not many cars today with bench seating in the front.

ryster

Legacy availability must vary by region. Here in Southeastern PA dealers have plenty. There are 3 Subaru dealers in my local vicinity, and between the three of them they have a total of 33 Legacys in inventory.

suydam

"A..... 2/3 year old Impala has much better visibility. You will get a good deal on one."

Did he ever. He just bought a 2013 Impala LT for under $14k with 2 years left on warranty. If you are into basic transportation that's hard to beat.

brian125

suydam said:

"A..... 2/3 year old Impala has much better visibility. You will get a good deal on one."

Did he ever. He just bought a 2013 Impala LT for under $14k with 2 years left on warranty. If you are into basic transportation that's hard to beat.

Your son did well.............................. that is a awesome deal.

thebean

Come on guys.  Life's too short to engage in petty squabbles.  As someone battling prostate cancer, I can tell you there's lots more important things to worry about.

 Bean

Mr_Shiftright

We need to get back on track here. Squabbles just clear the room and then there's no more topic, so shake hands and please challenge ideas only, not people. We may have to edit or delete some things, we'll see.

Thank you for catching up to your usual high standards.

Karen_S

Mr_Shiftright said:

We need to get back on track here. Squabbles just clear the room and then there's no more topic, so shake hands and please challenge ideas only, not people. We may have to edit or delete some things, we'll see.

Thank you for catching up to your usual high standards.

Thanks, Joe! Next round of egg nog is on me!