Midsize Sedans 2.0

gtgtcobra

"You told us that "My experience has been that the vehicles which are built in Germany, Japan and Korea are better built and they have less problems than the same exact vehicles which are built here in the USA." But in fact, you don't have any experience with cars that are exactly the same, built both in the foreign country and USA. And the only US-built foreign brand car you've owned that you had any significant trouble with was an '81 Rabbit Diesel, almost 30 years ago. You also have zero experience with Nissan cars, and no experience with Korean cars built in the US.

So your statements re your direct experience with relative quality are not very credible."

I don't think so. My experience is VERY credible. One of the vehicles that I've owned which was a piece of $[non-permissible content removed] with quality and mechanical problems was the VW Rabbit. The 97 Camry CE didn't have mechanical problems, BUT it did have fit and finish quality issues. What else do you want for proof? The rest of the vehicles which I've owned over the years have all been built 100% in Korea, Germany or Japan and they have all been flawless when compared to the 81 VW Rabbit and the 97 Camry CE that I've owned.

m6user

What else do you want for proof?

Maybe some actual data other than your whole two car survey. Why did you buy the 2010 Camry if, according to your theory, it is going to be a "piece of $hit"? If I recall correctly the Camry during the mid to late nineties had very good fit and finish according to professional auto writers/reviewers and I spent some time in a couple and they were very nice too. They started getting a little sloppy around the 2002 redo IMO.

You see I say IMO because what I say on here doesn't prove anything. Kind of like you. The stuff you've said proves absolutely nothing and the fact that you think it has makes it difficult to carry on an intelligent dialogue with you. Good luck with your Camry!

m6user

Ha! I got you there!

Yeah, I have to admit you got me. Good luck with your US built Camry.

backy

So it appears you no longer have any qualms about the quality of US-built cars. At least not US-made Toyotas.

I have to say though, you got a lease deal on that Camry that might be the best lease deal I have ever seen on ANY car: $156.01 a month for 3 years, 18,000 miles (a year?). That is simply incredible. That was with no money down, right? That beats even buying a used car, e.g. something cheap like a made-in-Korea 2006 Sonata GLS 4-cylinder.

gtgtcobra

"I have to say though, you got a lease deal on that Camry that might be the best lease deal I have ever seen on ANY car: $156.01 a month for 3 years, 18,000 miles (a year?). That is simply incredible. That was with no money down, right?"

backy,
I put down $2,300 PLUS another $500 for the Gap Insurance to get the $156.01 per month and the 3 years/ 18,000 miles for my 2010 Camry LE automatic.
I spent over 4 hours at the Toyota dealership trying to get a good deal. I initially wanted to put only $1,000 down plus the Gap Insurance. After 4 hours of dealing, I initially finalized the deal at $1,500 down with 3 years/ 18,000 miles for $169 per month plus the Gap Insurance. My girl wanted to get the payment down into the low to mid $150's, so we put an extra $615 down ($2,115) PLUS $500 for the Gap Insurance PLUS $185 more down for the difference in the sticker price of the vehicle that we chose because it cost $185 more than what we anticipated due to the 16" inch ten spoke alloy wheels that it had on it. So, I basically put down a TOTAL of $2,800 for everything to get the lease deal that I got.

By the way, I don't think that the Sonata that are sold here for the US market is built in Korea anymore. I believe that they build them down in the deep south in Alabama.

xmech

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/runaway-toyotas-problem-persists-recall/story?id=9- 618735

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100122/us_nm/us_toyota_recall_17

I'd put it in neutral and let the engine blow if I encountered this. Better than a crash.

8babies1dog

Not a bad choice at all, the Camry is a nice car, good luck with it.
You are correct on the Sonata, the last several years it has been
built in the Alabama plant.

jeffyscott

Is that 18,000 miles per year, meaning 54,000 miles total or 18,000 miles total over the three years?

gtgtcobra

"Is that 18,000 miles per year, meaning 54,000 miles total or 18,000 miles total over the three years?"

Yes, it means that I can drive the car a total of 54,000 miles over the 3 year period of the lease. The lease for my Camry is for 18,000 miles per year each year for a total of 3 years. Not bad leasing my 2010 Camry LE for $156.01 per month and being allowed to put on all those miles on it each year. It's an EXCELLENT lease deal.

lilengineerboy

The engine won't blow, it will hit the rev limter and cut spark or fuel.

akirby

But it's NOT $156 per month. It's $219 per month because you paid $2300 up front.

jimbres

One of the vehicles that I've owned which was a piece of $[non-permissible content removed] with quality and mechanical problems was the VW Rabbit.

And haven't I pointed out that the Rabbit, no matter where it was built, was a notoriously troublesome car? I had a German-built Rabbit that gave me no end of headaches until the engine blew up - with fewer than 50K miles on the clock.

Let me repeat - my Rabbit was perfectly awful & it was built in Germany. Your Rabbit wasn't a bad car because it was built in Pennsylvania. Your Rabbit was a bad car because it was a Rabbit.

I thought everyone knew this.

backy

Early 2006 Sonata I4s were shipped from the ROK to the US, until the Alabama plant became able to make them. At first, Alabama made only the V6 Sonatas, then added the I4s later.

With your $2800 up front, it's not nearly as good a deal on the Camry as I thought it was, but still not too bad--$233/month not counting the PV of money paid up front.

gtgtcobra

"With your $2800 up front, it's not nearly as good a deal on the Camry as I thought it was, but still not too bad--$233/month not counting the PV of money paid up front."

Why do you think that it is NOT a good deal? If I didn't put down any money my monthly lease payment would be much more probably around $300 to $350 per month. I didn't want to have to pay anymore than $150 to $160 per month and that's why I put down the $2300 plus the extra $500 for the Gap Insurance. So if you look at it from the view of not having to pay $300 to $350 per month for a lease and the fact that I was able to get 18,000 per year for 3 years, then the $2,800 amount of money that I put down in order to get the monthly lease payment decreased to $156.01 is NOT a bad deal.

Would you rather put no money down and pay $300 to $350+ per month for a piece of metal? You are a moron if you do.

m6user

Everyone, please don't feed the wildlife. It doesn't listen, can't read and will bite.

thegraduate

Easily the "Post of the Day" here, and should be taken to heart on every thread, not just this one.

gtgtcobra

"Easily the "Post of the Day" here, and should be taken to heart on every thread, not just this one."

Does this mean that you liked my post?

I hope that my post wasn't taken the wrong way. I am the type of person who says things the way they are. I just don't think that a car payment or a lease payment for a piece of metal should be anymore than $160 per month. People are paying waaaaaaay too much for car payments and car leases nowadays. It would be nice for these payments to be more reasonable. That's why I think that one can get a better deal by putting down a little bit of money and at the same time wheel and deal in order to get a low monthly lease payment just like I got.

colloquor

I'm not a fan of leasing, but to each his own. If my rusty math is correct, your total outlay for 3 years with the Camry is $8,416. That's actually pretty expensive ownership, especially if you buy a reasonably priced car and keep it at least 10 years. Most cars today will easy surpass the 10 year mark without any major troubles, and repair costs.

Leasing is effectively renting - plain and simple - just at a cheaper rate than you'd get from Avis or Hertz.

jeffyscott

I think your claim that "If I didn't put down any money my monthly lease payment would be much more probably around $300 to $350 per month" is not factual. Do you really think you would have to pay $146 to $196 per month to effectively add a 36 month loan for $2800 to your deal?

Assuming a 7% interest rate $2800 would require payments of $86.50 for 36 months. So instead of leasing for probably ~$243 per month on a "sign and drive", you paid $2800 up front. Without considering the time value of money, $2800 divided by 36 months is about $78 per month so your lease is actually costing about $234 per month, or ~$220 per month if the "gap" is left out.

All that I think was said is that is not the amazing deal that $156 per month with nothing down would have been.

silvercoupe

Leasing is effectively renting - plain and simple - just at a cheaper rate than you'd get from Avis or Hertz

Exacty right!!! It just amazes me how many people don't understand this.

A lease is nothing more than a loan on the difference between the initial selling price of a car and it residual value at the end of the lease term. Dealers love leases because most people don't negotiate on the selling price, they just focus on the monthly lease payment.

smarty666

I do share gtgtcobra's opinion and personal experience that cars made in foreign countries are better built, have better fit and finish, and less problems on avg than cars built in the USA by the same automaker!

I AM BY NO MEANS SAYING THAT YOU CAN'T GET A CAR FROM A FOREIGN COUNTRY AND NOT HAVE ANY PROBLEMS WITH IT!!!

I just want to make that clear now so that I don't hear that I am saying this! Because I know two people in my family who had an Infiniti and a Lexus, both made and assembled in Japan and who have had some problems

I think IN GENERAL, you have a BETTER CHANCE of getting a car that is assembled better, fit and finished better, and has a chance of having no problems if it is made over seas

Now for me I'm speaking solely on the Japanese automakers because I have not had any experience with German or Korean vehicles

I'll give you a quick great example of what I mean; Acura is a great example of what gygtcobra is talking about;

I've had a Acura TSX and a Acura TL; the TSX is completely made and assembled in Japan while the TL is made and assembled in Ohio!

The TSX had superior build quality, fit and finish, and no problems/noises what to speak of for the 3 years I leased it; the TL on the other hand has had fit and finish issues, body panels popping and creaking, interior rattles/noises like crazy, steering gear box needing replacement, radio hiss, etc. I even asked at two separate Acura dealerships I go to and each service manager told me right from his mouth that they tend to have more service calls and repairs on average with the Acura's that are build and assembled in US/Canada compared to the ones built and assembled in Japan!

I know personally that people noticed that the build quality, fit and finish, and quality of the Nissan Maxima went down hill when the production was shifted from Japan to Tenn

gtgtcobra

"All that I think was said is that is not the amazing deal that $156 per month with nothing down would have been."

jeffyscott,
You need to understand one thing. If I had put "nothing down" and "if" I was able to negotiate the same lease deal, I would be now paying $229 per month which to me is too much money to fork out each and every month for a car lease. That's why I put money down for the lease. I put the $2,800 up front in order to "lessen" the monthly payment burden of NOT having to pay that $229 per month for 36 months. My $2,800 down payment lessened my monthly payment by $73 from the $229 to only $156.01 per month.

stephen987

So you spent money in order to save money. . .

backy

No-money-out-of-pocket leases on 2010 Camry LEs are available with no negotiating needed for less than $250 a month in my area. That's NOTHING out of pocket--no acquisition fee, no tax, no license, NOTHING. And no negotiating. Might be possible to get a little lower payment with some haggling.

Do you understand the concept of "time value of money"? If so, you'd know that $2800 paid today is a much larger amount than the same amount paid out over 3 years. So you really aren't paying less by reducing your monthly payment on a lease via a big down payment. But you are paying more, sooner.

If you like the idea of using your savings to reduce the monthly payments on a leased vehicle, that's your choice. But there's no need to call someone a "moron" who would prefer to minimize his up-front cash outlay on a lease, especially in the end if he winds up paying no more than you did... or even less.

bhmr59

If you checked with your car insurance agent before you got the lease gap insurance from the car dealer, you may have saved a few hundred bucks. Lease gap insurance in car insurance companies I'm familiar with in CT usually is not more than $50 a year. So, if you want to look at costs strictly on a monthly basis that would have lowered your net monthly cost by about $10.

If a significant amount of your down payment money came from the value of your prior car, where will you get the downpayment for a new vehicle at the end of this lease?

gtgtcobra

"I do share gtgtcobra's opinion and personal experience that cars made in foreign countries are better built, have better fit and finish, and less problems on avg than cars built in the USA by the same automaker!

I think IN GENERAL, you have a BETTER CHANCE of getting a car that is assembled better, fit and finished better, and has a chance of having no problems if it is made over seas

I'll give you a quick great example of what I mean; Acura is a great example of what gygtcobra is talking about;

I've had a Acura TSX and a Acura TL; the TSX is completely made and assembled in Japan while the TL is made and assembled in Ohio!

The TSX had superior build quality, fit and finish, and no problems/noises what to speak of for the 3 years I leased it; the TL on the other hand has had fit and finish issues, body panels popping and creaking, interior rattles/noises like crazy, steering gear box needing replacement, radio hiss, etc. I even asked at two separate Acura dealerships I go to and each service manager told me right from his mouth that they tend to have more service calls and repairs on average with the Acura's that are build and assembled in US/Canada compared to the ones built and assembled in Japan!

I know personally that people noticed that the build quality, fit and finish, and quality of the Nissan Maxima went down hill when the production was shifted from Japan to Tenn

smarty666,
YES, what you just quoted saying above here is EXACTLY what I was trying to get thru to everyone in here. You've excellently explained it very well. I too have ALSO noticed a significantly different build quality in fit and finish quality in vehicles in which the production was shifted from Japan to USA or from Japan to Canada. You are absolutely 100% right about this observance.

gtgtcobra

"I'm not a fan of leasing, but to each his own. If my rusty math is correct, your total outlay for 3 years with the Camry is $8,416. That's actually pretty expensive ownership, especially if you buy a reasonably priced car and keep it at least 10 years. Most cars today will easy surpass the 10 year mark without any major troubles, and repair costs."

coloquor and everybody else in here,
So please tell me, what type of dollar amount monthly lease payment is considered to be an "excellent" monthly lease payment figure for leasing the 2010 Camry LE automatic for 3 years/ 18,000 miles per year just like I did when putting money down for the lease? And HOW MUCH money down for the down payment would be considered to be a decent and low dollar amount in order to make the monthly lease payments VERY LOW (at around $155 to $160 per month)? Please be realistic with the figures.

ALSO, what do you consider to be an "excellent" monthly lease payment figure for the 2010 Camry LE automatic "without" having to put any money down for the lease ($0 money down)? I would like to hear your views on both sides of the equation regarding this particular scenario.
THANK YOU

lilengineerboy

So please tell me, what type of dollar amount monthly lease payment is considered to be an "excellent" monthly lease payment figure for leasing the 2010 Camry LE automatic for 3 years/ 18,000 miles per year just like I did when putting money down for the lease?

I guess all the recalls and quality issues make them likely to deal on those these days?

jeffyscott

I have no idea what a good deal on any kind of lease is, but whatever it is, it really has not much to do with how you choose to structure it in terms of the trade off between monthly payments and down payment.

I have had a monthly payment of $0 on my 2007 Mazda6 for the last three years. Does this fact alone mean I negotiated a fantastic deal? No, it means I paid cash. In the same way, your monthly payment is what it is both because of whatever you negotiated and because you chose to pay $2800 up front.

I'm not saying their is anything wrong with your deal or how you chose to structure it. But one person might pay only $100 per month on a lease because they chose to pay $5000 up front, while another pays $250 per month with nothing down. Aside from the fact that the second person is paying more in interest, there is not a significant difference between these two deals.

explorerx4

what did you do with the Santa Fe?