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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    The front has pretty much stayed the same as the concept. The headlights of the Accord Concept had also swept back to the front fender area.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Edmunds Accord Pics

    I actually like the sedan now, probably still not my first choice regardless of what the new engine will be though, but the coupe leaves a lot to be desired for me. Looks too much like a Civic or Scion tC IMO. Both are OK to me but I'd like something different for a change. The Altima coupe is still the my choice in that dept.

    I'd buy one if the price is right. But I'm betting the new Mazda6 will be better for me in several ways including price.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "How does it know? How does it know what I am trying to do?"

    It's okay if you doubt the technology, unless you have your bacon saved by one of these systems, you don't know what you don't know.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "I would argue that my butt accomplishes the same task, my instructor used to refer to it as "butt pucker" :D"

    Seriously if you have read any of the posts, you would have gathered a DSC type system can apply the brakes to wheels individually to keep the car pointed in the same direction as the steering wheel. Something you cannot do.

    You are going in the wrong direction here. In an emergency situation this technology will drive better than you. Believe it or not.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    I'll agree with the coupe looking much better than the sedan, although IMO the front ends, as well as the rear of the sedan, are trying to mimic the Camry (not good). Also, can someone PLEASE tell me the point to sweeping the head- and tail lights up and out over the fenders (ie. the '07 Altima and now the '08 Accord?) It's a trend that's tacky and pointless at best.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    A mixed bag of everything, Nissan, Ford, Hyundai, Saturn, Toyota, Audi, BMW...and thus, it will sell like mad :)
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Also, can someone PLEASE tell me the point to sweeping the head- and tail lights up and out over the fenders (ie. the '07 Altima and now the '08 Accord?)

    I believe it's to give you the illusion that the car is moving when sitting still. Or that it goes so fast that the front end is being formed by the air it's moving through.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    From a French magazine. I haven't seen this here before so forgive me if this has already gone around this thread.

    image
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    The front has pretty much stayed the same as the concept. The headlights of the Accord Concept had also swept back to the front fender area.

    I may have only seen it from a straight on front view and not seen the swept-backness as a result.

    Another thing, and this looks like it may apply to the new Mazda6 as well, what is with practically eliminating the rear deck? The Accord coupe looks like it should be a hatchback as does that picture of the new Mazda6 and the Altima seems to be about there, too. Nothing wrong with hatchbacks but putting a trunk on and then leaving no room for a lid does not make sense to me.

    When my wife was looking for a car we checked out a Volvo S40 and that trunk lid was so small that it was to the point where you could pretty much only slide things in horizontally. Looks like some of the midsizes are getting to that point now.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Looks good.

    If the next Mazda6 really looks like that then it'll be the looker among the midsizers.

    Drop the DT35 in it and call it a day.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Drop the DT35 in it and call it a day.

    That is the current projection but rumors are flying around the Mazda and Ford forums that it will get a 280 HP/265 ft-lbs Duratec37 like the 2008 CX-9. Linclolns will be getting the DI version of that motor with 300+ HP. But the DT35 wouldn't be bad either.

    I'm curious to know if AWD will be an option on the next 6 without having to step up to the MPS if it ever gets built again.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    Call me an old fuddy duddy but I think the 2007 Accord is a better-looking vehicle than the 2008, which bears quite a bit of resemblance to the Altima, which is ugly, in my humble opinion. The 2006-08 Fusions look better than both.

    Yup, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. But it seems, from the photos, that Honda is mimicking other manufacturers rather than setting the pace, when it comes to design.

    Oh sure, Honda will sell a ton of them, just because they are Hondas, cars with rock-solid reputations. That's a good thing for Honda, bad news for competitors.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    The new Accord will sell NOT because on great reputations and the Honda name.

    If the 08' continues Accord's track record throughout the last decade or so it'll continue to be the best all-around (i.e. handling, comfort, powertrain refinement, interior build quality, ergonomics) midsizer on the market.

    That, my friend, is why Honda sold tons of them and will continue to do so. Reputation can only last a period of time, sooner or later the consumers will catch on. Best example of that is the Taurus.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    rumors are flying around the Mazda and Ford forums
    this has seemed to be a big problem with Ford lately - what is promised, projected, or otherwise hinted either never happens or is so late in happening that the rest of the competition has long since surpassed whatever actually happens.
    The Fusion, for example, is also 'hinted' to be getting an 'improved' 3.0 at a whole 240hp and Ford is supposed to be refitting some engine plants to do it. Anticipated for 09 or 10 model year - even if it is a great engine, it will still be several years late relative to what Honda, Nissan, and Toyota already have, and still be a bunch of HP short. The 6, if Ford can get enough production capacity for simply that lower production vehicle, may be more of a possibility for the now available 3.5 which does strike me as being at least, in the same zip code as some of the 'Japanese' engines and, of course the GM 3.6.
    There does, however, seem to be a history of a lot of unkept promises and/or late arrivals for those of you waiting on Ford to do anything.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    new spec's for the powertrain HP, torque, and fuel efficiency ratings.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    this has seemed to be a big problem with Ford lately - what is promised, projected, or otherwise hinted either never happens or is so late in happening that the rest of the competition has long since surpassed whatever actually happens.

    I reported most of what you posted about regarding the engines. I can say that the vast majority of the rumors I've been reading are coming from engine plant employees or actual Ford employees who are keeping their names a secret for good reason. That doesn't make any of it true of course, but it seems that these people are actually working on the products they are speaking of currently which is better than some of the rumors of the past which came from magazine writer's guesses and over anxious execs at big car shows.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    I'm curious to know if AWD will be an option on the next 6 without having to step up to the MPS if it ever gets built again.

    AWD is still speculated, as well as a 6-speed manual for both the 4-cyl and V6.

    As for the V6, the 3.7L from the '08 CX-9 is the front-runner for the 6, since it's already being worked over extensively by Mazda.

    A 270+HP 3.7L with 6-speed manual and AWD? Where do I sign up? :)
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    As for the V6, the 3.7L from the '08 CX-9 is the front-runner for the 6, since it's already being worked over extensively by Mazda.

    I think the motors are built here and sent to Japan to be worked on by Mazda IIRC. Since the 6 is built here that might not make sense. However, the Mustang is supposed to get the DT37 for MY2009 and it is built along side of the 6. That makes a good case for it too I'd say. :shades:
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    The new Accord will sell NOT because on great reputations and the Honda name.

    That may not be the only reason for the new Honda's success but it certainly does not hurt matters. It is an asset rather than a liability. A very significant one in the grand scheme of things.

    Ford certainly squandered its Taurus bonanza by letting the car die on the vine but we still bought a 2007 Fusion, partially owing to good experiences (mostly) with Ford products. Hopefully, Ford will not repeat the mistakes it made with the Taurus but none of us can predict the future or all of us would be millionaires.

    While I certainly agree that the Accord is a fine mid-size automobile, it was also priced out of our range when we purchased a MSRP $27,105 V6 SEL AWD Fusion.

    If the 08' continues Accord's track record throughout the last decade or so it'll continue to be the best all-around (i.e. handling, comfort, powertrain refinement, interior build quality, ergonomics) midsizer on the market.

    That's a glowing testimonial, to be sure, but it's also how we feel about our Fusion. The 3.0-liter Duratec V6 may not be state-of-the-art but coupled to a six-speed automatic it is competitive in all areas and a very durable, proven engine that suits us just fine (except for poor in-city, stop-'n-go gasoline mileage, 14.8 mpg).

    We can agree on one thing: The 2008 Accord will outsell the 2008 Fusion by a large margin. McDonald's will sell more hamburger's than Wendy's, too.

    I seriously doubt if Ford, GM or Chrysler will ever achieve the sales levels of the Camry or Accord in the mid-size market but that does not mean that their offerings are not competitive with what Toyota and Honda put forth.

    The buying public now perceives the Camry and Accord to be better products and that perception becomes reality in terms of sales. (McDonald's versus Wendy's.)

    I still say the 2007 Accord looks better than its successor but it's unlikely that my personal observation will have any effect on Honda sales at all, even if tens of thousands of people agree with me, which is not likely either.

    In short, Honda probably has another "hit" on its hands and that is just fine, too.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    "While I certainly agree that the Accord is a fine mid-size automobile, it was also priced out of our range when we purchased a MSRP $27,105 V6 SEL AWD Fusion."

    You would have to look pretty hard to find an Accord that cost that much with EX-L models going for about 22k. ;)

    My concerns about the 08 Accord are its apparent added size and weight. I think the fuel economy will suffer (it will have a more efficient engine, but the weight will keep mpg about the same, or possible slightly higher highway and slightly lower city). I also think acceleration will be about the same despite more hp. Now if they can keep the weight the same, that is a different story, but I don't think it will happen.

    I also don't like the looks of the headroom in the rear seat. Camry lost its good rear seat headroom with their latest, and it looks like Accord is headed (not a pun) down the same path.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Seriously if you have read any of the posts, you would have gathered a DSC type system can apply the brakes to wheels individually to keep the car pointed in the same direction as the steering wheel. Something you cannot do.

    While I agree that braking an individual wheel is something I cannot do, the wheels on the inside of the turn aren't going to do very much even if the brakes are applied, and if they are then someone didn't turn the wheel as hard as they should've in the first place, so its correction for driver error.

    You are going in the wrong direction here. In an emergency situation this technology will drive better than you. Believe it or not.

    Thank you for saying I am wrong while providing no empirical evidence to support your ASSUMPTION. Those ultimatum blanket statements are much easier to dismiss. If you feel that "technology will drive better than you," I am glad your vehicle presumably has this technology.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I like the way that looks although it seems there is a lot of previous generation Altima in the front end. It also looks good in this drawing because it has huge wheels and little gap between the wheel and fender. Mazda is reasonably good about filling wheel wells with tire and wheel, so we can wait and see what they produce.

    That last pic of the tan Honda Accord sedan looks a lot like a Saturn L300. I am guessing it has to do with the angle of the pic, and there is something Volvo S60/Peugeot about the front of the car. I can't decide if I like it or not, but at least its interesting.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    the wheels on the inside of the turn aren't going to do very much even if the brakes are applied, and if they are then someone didn't turn the wheel as hard as they should've in the first place, so its correction for driver error.

    Speaking of ASSUMPTIONS - where is your empirical evidence that braking the inside tire does nothing? The evidence from the auto mfrs says otherwise. Who should we believe?

    And if you're in an understeer situation - how would turning the wheel more help?
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    This is still a sedan board right?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    a couple of good cases in point both involving the same 3.0DT that from a competitive standpoint should've been laid to rest a long time ago given that both Nissan and Honda had superior V6s (Toyota was actually the Johnny-come-lately to this party) several years (2002 and 03) before the Fusion and/or the Five Hundred ever came to market. The Five Hundred originally was supposed to have the 3.5 in 2005, Ford can't make enough of the engines, kills the car (renaming it the "Taurus") - you would think that they could have done something to help their lower volume 'flagship' sedan that didn't take more than 3 years. to do. The same sort of thing could be said about the Fusion - it would be the same sort of 'rocket' (with 260hp) that the Camcordimas already were, so why bother with the car in the first place if an appropriate engine is not available for it and won't be for maybe 5 years after introduction. Shooting themselves in the foot - again. Both cars deserve so much better.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Speaking of ASSUMPTIONS - where is your empirical evidence that braking the inside tire does nothing? The evidence from the auto mfrs says otherwise. Who should we believe?

    I didn't say that braking the inside wheel does nothing, i said braking the inside wheel does nothing AT THE LIMIT. If there is no weight on that wheel, you could take it off the car and its not going to make a difference.

    I think this started when it was suggested that the system would improve handling. I think that is false. I think it lowers the limits of the vehicle and intervenes to compensate for the lack of driving ability of the general US populace. I am all for it.

    And if you're in an understeer situation - how would turning the wheel more help?

    If you are in an "over the limit" understeer situation, like going wayyyy to fast into a turn, the front tires are so overloaded they aren't going to take any more input, so braking a front wheel isn't going to help. I would also suggest the inside rear wheel would be unloaded (see above) and dragging it isn't going to provide a whole lot of benefit.

    Stability control is designed to prevent roll-overs and to keep the car from swapping ends. There was an earlier reference to dragging a foot on a bicycle; a different analogy might be training wheels on a bicycle. Its hard to fall over, but the lean angle is much less than what would be available otherwise.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    and don't forget...the current price concessions that Honda is putting on the current Accords will likely come to a screeching halt if the new model is received well. This will only increase the price gap between the accord vs fusions, sonata's, and the 6. But who knows... maybe it will be worth the premium. Can't wait to see it.

    by the way, pretty much all the car mags are saying that the v-6 accord is likely to get more HP (which usually means less mpg) but will have cylinder deactivation for hwy cruising. it's also been noted that led taillights seem to be going away on the sedan based on the spy pics posted in this thread. perhaps it will be on the higher trim models, but the sedan spy pic definitely does not have led's. not that i care btw, but just to throw it out there.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    it's also been noted that led taillights seem to be going away on the sedan based on the spy pics posted in this thread. perhaps it will be on the higher trim models, but the sedan spy pic definitely does not have led's.

    Too bad. I really liked the LED taillights on the 2007 Accord. They look very cool and are probably a safety plus as well because of the brighter image.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    I actually want to make my turn signals LED as they don't seem very noticeable against the red LED's.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Okay - let's move on back to the cars themselves from here.
  • ilikecars23ilikecars23 Member Posts: 28
    Too bad. I really liked the LED taillights on the 2007 Accord. They look very cool and are probably a safety plus as well because of the brighter image.

    I also like the LED's on the current accord, they look very cool, and high tech. They seem to be catchin on as a design trend as both the Milan and Aura sport them. Hopefully the next Mazda6 will use them as well.
  • ilikecars23ilikecars23 Member Posts: 28
    I actually want to make my turn signals LED as they don't seem very noticeable against the red LED's.

    I say go for it, It would give your accord some uniqueness. I personally like the Accord hybrid turn signals, the lens are white, with amber blinkers. Very sharp looking..!
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    While I certainly agree that the Accord is a fine mid-size automobile, it was also priced out of our range when we purchased a MSRP $27,105 V6 SEL AWD Fusion.

    I think the pricing on the accord will have a HUGE effect on sales. If, as others are saying, it looks like it borrowed for other midsizes, and doesn't realy stand out, a high price could be bad for sales. people may not spend a couple thousand more for an unremarkable, yet well built and reliable, car.

    seriously doubt if Ford, GM or Chrysler will ever achieve the sales levels of the Camry or Accord in the mid-size market but that does not mean that their offerings are not competitive with what Toyota and Honda put forth.


    as unbelievable as it seems (even though I know its not a midsize, but it think it does compete with them) the impala is running neck and neck with the acord. it may even be outselling it now
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    by the way, pretty much all the car mags are saying that the v-6 accord is likely to get more HP (which usually means less mpg) but will have cylinder deactivation for hwy cruising.

    now that would be cool. I've heard of that in large V-8 trucks, but never a car.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "All this talk about dealers and service departments has me thinking. I have been driving Accords for 16 years now, and as far as I'm concerned, my local dealer doesn't need a service department. Do they even have a Service Department? Can't say for sure. The only time I go to the local Honda dealer is to pick up maintenance items, and check out the new models. It is an Accord, after all. If I owned another brand, I would be concerned. "

    Ditto! I can say the same about my Ford Fusion.. ;);)
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "A friend of ours has worked as the service mgr at a Honda, Ford, Lincoln/Mercury, Dodge, and now Kia dealer. He claims the Honda service dept. was every bit as busy as any of the others. And not just for oil changes either because I know that's what you are thinking. "

    Agreed, my friend is a sales Manager at a medium sized Honda dealership. Their service bays are full, and not just with oil changes.. :shades:
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    now that would be cool. I've heard of that in large V-8 trucks, but never a car.

    Everything old is new again

    DCX MDS

    It seems like they will continually find applications for this until all cars have it. I can't see how this is a bad idea, the technology is there for seamless integration.

    The other fuel saving thing I am waiting for is the integrated alternator/starter, so the engine automatically shuts off at idle (like a Prius) and automatically restarts instantly when you press the gas.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Wow! Where did you get these renderings of the 09 Fusion?? I notice the tail lights are red and not the Jewel type..
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    now would that be as simple as simply shutting off 4 of the injectors? is there any reason the pistons couldn't move without combustion? or is is some incredible complex technologial setup?
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    I think the pricing on the accord will have a HUGE effect on sales. If, as others are saying, it looks like it borrowed for other midsizes, and doesn't realy stand out, a high price could be bad for sales. people may not spend a couple thousand more for an unremarkable, yet well built and reliable, car.

    um, as far as looks go of the current sedan, if you were to look up "unremarkable" in a dictionary, you may see a pic of an accord ;) yet they still sell tons of these cars. So long as they still have a good reputation and continue to get good press, I've no doubt the Accord will do well. And Honda has not been inclined to have huge increases in prices with a release of new models in the recent past (civic, odyssey).

    So if they keep the price about the same and come out with new features like HID headlights, cylinder deactivation, more efficient engines with more HP, and better crash tests (remember the Accord is slated to get a new chassis with better capability to absorb impacts - ACE I think it's called), it will give Honda just enough to talk about how much better their new car is.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "seriously doubt if Ford, GM or Chrysler will ever achieve the sales levels of the Camry or Accord in the mid-size market but that does not mean that their offerings are not competitive with what Toyota and Honda put forth."

    Dejavue! I am old enough to remember when the Taurus was a hot seller and GM/Ford pretty much dominated the sedan markets.. People said the same thing.. No way can Honda/Toyota catch Ford or GM in car sales..

    Well.. look what happened.. ;)
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    In my opinion a nice car but not a car that exudes character and styling. Once again Honda plays it safe and goes mainstream. Car just lacks a soul for me. I frankly like the rear end of the 07 Accords better. But, thousands will sell just because of the silver "H" if nothing else.. :sick:
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    I think the upper trim level of the odyssey has cylinder deactivation too, so it's not new to Honda.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Vacation to Maui! Had a great time..
    I had a rental car, it was a Dodge Avenger. At first I was excited to try something different. It wore off really quick. As I entered the car.. talk about cheap plastics!! The instrument panel cover was falling off! I pushed it back and clipped it back into place. During the week it came off again. The engine was a 4cyl engine and very, very loud and rough. So rough the car shook at idle. Acceleration was so loud and rough I tried my best not to accelerate!.. I could not believe Dodge would build a car like this and think it could even come close to compete with a 4cyl Honda/Toyota/Ford/Sonata/Mazda or what ever. (I have test driven most of the main players in the 4cyl family sedan arena.) The transmission was very clunky and at somepoints shifts were so hard it shook the car. My wife and kids hated the seats, kids hated the back seats because the seats sat so far back they could not see out of the windows very well. I was very disappointed in Dodge. The outside styling was nice and aggressive in my opinion. Go test drive one of these for yourself. The car had 2,300 miles on it also.
    By the way.. Saw loads of Toyota Camry's as rentals and on the rental lot next do Dollar.. :surprise:
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Ford can't make enough of the engines, kills the car (renaming it the "Taurus") - you would think that they could have done something to help their lower volume 'flagship' sedan that didn't take more than 3 years.

    The DT35 was delayed so they could make it competitive now and in the future. Originally it was just going to be a larger DT30 but they beefed some things up and made allowances for turbo, hybrid, and DI applications which is the future proof part. It is very competitive with the offerings from Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and GM right now and will remain competitive for years to come. At least that's what I've gathered over the past couple of years while waiting for it. :blush:;)

    Why it's not going into the Fusion I don't know. But I do think that the rumored 240 HP PIP DT30 with a 6-speed ATX will be competitive. Not class leading, but competitive. If the other rumor about the DI turbo 2.5L I4 for the '09 Fusion are true then there's your answer to the power "problem".
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I think the upper trim level of the odyssey has cylinder deactivation too, so it's not new to Honda.

    It does and it's like $37k!!!!! I hope they don't charge a premium for the same tech in the Accord. No one will buy it if they do IMO.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    The same sort of thing could be said about the Fusion - it would be the same sort of 'rocket' (with 260hp) that the Camcordimas already were, so why bother with the car in the first place if an appropriate engine is not available for it and won't be for maybe 5 years after introduction.

    I can't see how that hurts sales though and that's the bottom line. I've already stated my case on how the Fusion's V6 is a good, if not excellent, compromise to the overpriced V6s of the Camcords and the less powerful I4s of all three. It's priced in the middle and makes people happy as shown by total V6 sales for all three.

    The Fusion V6 falls right in the middle of the V6s of others and the I4s of all in the class in every category including the all important price category.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    yep, I remember those V8-6-4s that Cadillac championed many many years ago, a disaster for GM if I recall correctly not too much unlike GM trying to make diesel engines out of their small block V8s - leading to things like excessive recalls, extended warranties, and crappy resale values. Things like this a good part of the fall of the 'Detroit' empire - meaning they can't build smaller engines well, so let's try these 'tricks' - and further proof that technology is not always good.
    My own observation of the system in operation in a 300C is that it is almost undetectable except that it won't hold the car's speed without reverting back to 8 cylinders at any speed over about 65 or so - even on a flat road. Maybe a part of the reason that the 300C has been listed (by CR) as the most overrated in terms of EPA FE ratings? Haven't heard of any reliability issues with these new systems though, so I guess that something has gotten a little easier to do since way back when.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    An engine is just a big air pump. I think to deactivate cylinders they probably do something with the valves, the ignition and or the fuel. I also would think they stagger (or even vary) which pistons are firing an which ones aren't.

    The pistons would increase parasitic loss but probably not too much.

    This is pretty much the same way a Jake Brake works on a diesel engine.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I can't see how that hurts sales though and that's the bottom line
    respectively suggest that your head may be in the sand. Camcordimas outsell Fusions by about 10 to 1. Why? The Fusion is otherwise an intelligently designed and competitive car at least until you pop the hoods. A quick check shows a rebate and/or financing incentives available right now on the Fusion but NOTHING on the other 3. And this is all because the Fusion is selling well? It may be selling well for a sedan with a blue oval on it, but certainly not relative to the real players in this class. Had Ford been able to put refined and efficient engines in the Fusion - we wouldn't be having this conversation now.

    And sure a Camcordima is 'overpriced' (your word) relative to things like Fusions - at least until it comes time to trade them in. Or maybe if initial purchase price is what determines 'overpriced' then the Sonata ought to be the sedan of choice - it does, at least, have a better engine that you can certainly get for about the same number as a Camcordima 4 banger, resale values and TCO be damned!
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