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the Impala has always been relatively high on the 'sales' charts, except for one thing the numbers of them bid into corporate and municipal fleets, and rental lots. It's a wonder that GM doesn't run out of white paint especially considering how much money they lose giving the car away in this manner. The Accord OTH is really SOLD to REAL BUYERS who have those nasty things called car payments!
Cylinder de-activation is available in from the EX-L trim levels up in the Honda Odyssey; these can typically be had for around 28k. Honda does not charge extra for this technology, nor will it do so in the Accord.
You've had a Fusion for 16 years?
The Fusion is looking like a very reliable automobile!
It does and it's like $37k!!!!! I hope they don't charge a premium for the same tech in the Accord.
Um, it's $31k for a model with cylinder deactivation, heated leather, dual climate, and a bunch of other options
Oh really? Why isn't it offered throughout the entire Odyssey range? Have any actual proof? Do you know exactly where it'll be offered on the Accord, whether or not it'll be on the LX or just the EX?
Not in the V6 arena though which is where your head is in the sand. :P Very few Camcords are sold with the V6 and the majority of Fusions are sold with the V6. If the V6 in the Fusion is so bad then why is it selling so well?
BTW, the F-150 outsells everything and it has the weakest engines of all pickups. Having a more powerful V6 in the mid-sized sedan segment does not increase sales overall. IMO, if Honda and Toyota offered only the I4 their sales would not drop all that much. Their reputations and overall "goodness" of the products they offer appeal to the masses and THAT is what drives the sales. What doesn't drive sales is having 40 more horses than the other guy in their lowest volume copies. It helps them sell some V6 copies over the other guys but not the big sellers which are I4s.
A quick check shows a rebate and/or financing incentives available right now on the Fusion but NOTHING on the other 3.
Maybe in your area that's true but right now I can get $1000 off of a Fusion V6 SEL ($250 more if my VIN meets a certain criteria, whatever that means, and push the dealer), $1950 off of an Accord V6 sedan if I push the dealer, and $2000 (or $2500 with some coupon)off of a Sonata Limited V6.
BTW, you guys didn't belive me that there was $3000 in dealer cash last year on the Accord in this area. We're now up to $1950. I'll get back to all of you doubters when it reaches $3000 or more in a month or two.
That's what I was getting at. You can't just go buy any old Odyssey and get the cylinder deactivation. The $37k one was the only one with it at the last car show I went to and it was actually equipped the way we'd want it. I'm guessing the $31k "base" cylinder deactivation model is sans leather, DVD, reverse sensing, etc.?
My point was to show how the Accord may not have that tech all the way through the V6 line. I'd bet you'll have to get the EX-L at a minimum for that feature and you can all bet that there is a premium for that tech worked into the price tag. Probably not much but it's surely there.
I respectively say your heads are in the sand if you don't believe that as captain2 would say. :P
If power is so important then why didn't the new Camry V6 dramatically increase Camry sales?
The fact is it's hard to harness 260 hp in a small fwd car. I don't see getting much higher without AWD.
1. The Camry is not small
2. The FWD TL-S (relatively same size as the Camry) has 287HP and almost no torque steer.
The reason why the V6 Camry/Accord is sold at less percentage is because of the higher price. A V6 Fusion or Sonata is almost comparable in price to a middle-to-top-of-the-line Accord or Camry.
Too bad. I really liked the LED taillights on the 2007 Accord. They look very cool and are probably a safety plus as well because of the brighter image.
Most buyers will choose a vehicle, then choose the engine. Only a few enthusiasts care that the Camry V6 has 260+ hp versus the Accord 240 vs. the Fusion 221 and an even smaller number of buyers would choose the Camry over the Accord or Fusion simply because of the V6 engine.
Maybe you are right, but it's a good opportunity for the manufactures to showcase their latest technology in a mainstream market. Good publicity too. Another example is the new Lexus LS. Does anybody on this planet need a car with 8-speed auto tranny and that it can park itself? Heck no. Is it a significant factor why people buy that car? I don't think so either. However, it does make Lexus looks good though.
I'd have to agree with akirby on all accounts. I've driven my cousin's '06 TL and it has plenty of torque steer. Unless Honda did something similar to what Mazda does in the MAZDASPEED3 to reduce torque steer, I don't see how the TL-S has almost none and I don't see how adding more power to these mainstream machines will produce different results. One of the biggest complaints from MT, C&D, and the like about the TL has been it's torque steer. See here.
Quote from the link:
"While 270 horsepower from a six-cylinder seems reason enough to purchase a TL over less-potent competitors--BMW 330i and the Lexus IS 300--torque steer (the TL is a front-driver) remains an always-present problem whenever the engine is delivering max juice. Suggested one editor: "If Acura wants to sell a front-drive car with this much horsepower, the engineers should figure how to tune out the wheel wiggle.""
The reason why the V6 Camry/Accord is sold at less percentage is because of the higher price.
Exactly!!! And the Fusion V6 sells much better than the others because it is a good compromise in most ways. If people were so concerned about HP then the opposite would be true.
No, but they are limiting their V6 sales by making it cost more. It's a pretty big premium for the Camry and Accord V6 when you think about it. I'd imagine Joe shopper just wants a little more power for not a lot of $$. These two offer a lot more power for a lot more $$ and that puts it in enthusiast terrritory IMO. You're playing with the likes of the SPEED6 and Subie Legacy GT at those prices and those are both better performers all around for the same money.
Putting the power down
You might suspect a front-driver with 256 lb-ft of twisting torque to be a tarmac-nibbling handful and it would have been had it not also included a helical-gear-type limited-slip differential (LSD) in the six-speed manual transmission. This long-standing torque-steer-reduction scheme works by dividing the driving force more equally between the two front wheels.
In the case of the TL Type-S, it works very well. The only time we noticed the steering affected by the throttle was at the very top of both 1st and 2nd gear under full throttle. Otherwise, the car's cornering was tack-sharp both off and on the gas. The LSD also does an admirable job of diminishing understeer.
First Drive: 2007 Acura TL Type-S
I also test drove the TL-S last December. The torque is minimal but not completely gone.
PS. I would assume we are well on our way to "off-topic-discussion land" already? :P
It was in my post. They had it separated out into $750 and $1200 for some reason but didn't state why. Link again.
Keep in mind that this is in my region and YMMV.
Nah. I think we can at least both agree that torque steer can be managed in several ways. How it's done is the key. Mazda eliminated it in the SPEED6 using AWD and in the SPEED3 using sensors to limit power in gears 1 and 2 and some other little tricks. Acura used an LSD but didn't seem to completely eliminate it. Which tradeoff do you want is the big question.
Honda doesn't undercut anybodies price.
We have a 2007 SEL AWD V6 Fusion and don't notice any torque steer. Is that because of the AWD feature?
What do you have now? Just curious.
Honda doesn't undercut anybodies price.
In addition, McDonald's has stores everywhere (like Ford dealerships) where Wendy's are a bit harder to find (like Honda stores).
But, Honda still sells more Accords.
You're probably right. The $750 one has been there a while. I think the nationwide Accord incentive is the lease deal which seems like a pretty good deal to me.
But, Honda still sells more Accords.
So in conclusion the Mac vs. Wendy's is a horrible example for Camcord vs. Fusion.
:P
This one is easy to answer.
Honda and Toyota have the best 4 cylinder's in the business, and therefore many opt for that engine choice. Ford doesn't have a viable or decent 4 cylinder, so everyone gets the "somewhat decent" V6.
Isn't the Accord's V6 244HP these days?
Is Fusion's exactly 221 small ponies?
Check the Accord prices paid board.
Some cars have a low speed only traction control to help them get started on slippery surfaces with an automatic transmission Some cars have "all speed" traction control which uses sensors to limit wheel slip. The all speed traction control can also use the system to limit torque steer by retarding engine output.
A limited slip makes the car want to go straight, I would think that would exacerbate torque steer by pulling the car in the direction of traction. In FWD cars, using "equal length" half shafts supposedly helps also (I'm not refuting that at all, I just haven't looked into it that much).
AWD (w/diffs) just distributes the power to more places, so each place can handle more of the job of transmitting power before it gets overwhelmed.
I think the old '89 Probe GT had the most torque steer of any vehicle I'd ever driven, short of a highly modified early 90s Maxima.
Does the Acura have a real limited slip like a torsen or something?
Then why are both listed together on the EX-L V6 ATX with no statement that they can or cannot be combined? Regardless, $1200 is more than the $1000 on the Fusion albeit you have to work for the one from Honda and the Fusion cash is on the hood.
The initial statement said there were no incentives on the Sonata and Accord and all I was doing was proving that wrong. Whether it's $1200 or $1950 there is still a cash incentive on both in some regions right?
So my Mustang has a manual tranny and traction control but I can still spin the wheels with the TC on. In the snow the system kicks in right away and retards the engine and brakes the rear wheels to get me going. Is that the same thing, and how does it know there's snow on the road or that I'm doing a burnout? You seem like you might know, no? :confuse:
My understanding of the way it works is it looks at how fast all of the wheels are going and grabs the one that is too far out of range and slows it down. On slippery surfaces, you can have your drive wheels going 30 with the front wheels not moving. If you do a burn out, I don't think the variation is that much, you don't need the drive wheels to be going that much faster than the non-drive wheels. It also might be less sensitive if both drive wheels are going faster than the 2 non-drive wheels.
ABS is also based on the speed difference between the wheels, so in low speed conditions, even if one wheel is going 5 or 10 and the other wheel is going 0, it might not be a big enough difference and the wheel may lock.
On my Contour w/o traction control, when starting and driving on a low traction surface, the ABS sensors can't get a sync so the system can't initialize, presumably because all the wheels are going different speeds passed the speed where it does its snapshot (I think its 7 mph or so). This flags the ABS light and I don't have ABS until the vehicle is ignition is cycled.
Oh, and I didn't mean to imply that only automatic transmission vehicles can have TC. I think it is more important for auto trans cars however, since its easier to modulate the torque and power going to the wheels with the clutch.
It sure does. I did notice that when the TC did come on this past winter there was that clicking/grinding sound you hear when the ABS comes on during braking and it seemed to originate from around the master cylinder somewhere.
I ask all of this because the Mazda6 I had previously seemed to have the same type of system where it did allow for some wheel spin. Not as much as the Mustang does but moreso than our Explorer or any other TC equipped vehicle I've ever driven. Are TC systems pretty standard out of a box or is there a large allowance for customization?
Oh, and I didn't mean to imply that only automatic transmission vehicles can have TC. I think it is more important for auto trans cars however, since its easier to modulate the torque and power going to the wheels with the clutch.
Agreed on all accounts. That's one of the reasons I like driving a stick so much actually. Way more control IMO.
it isn't selling well - the answer to your question as to why a majority of Ford have the V6 is 1) because it is cheap and 2) because the 4 cylinder is that bad. There have been a number of posts on this forum discussing whether or not a 4 cylinder Accord can really keep up with a 6 cylinder Fusion, I guess it turns out to be close except in one area - the Accord 4 banger is a smoother and more refined engine than any V6 DT ever thought of being and obviously burns a whole lot less petrol.
Dealer discounts on an outgoing model designs are bad examples for comparison purposes - but if they are starting to discount the 07 Accords like you claim, it certainly should make the car that much less expensive to own than a Fusion.
I'll second that. But a 4 cyl Nissan Altima can hang with it. Its that good.
to akirby that thinks most folks pick a car and then pick an engine to go with it - maybe so - but not this buyer - I'll do it exactly the other way around. A rough feeling, coarse sounding engine is what makes or breaks my driving pleasures. It is almost worth buying the 4 cylinder Accord with only the MT just for the experience of how it sounds and feels as you encourage the engine do what it does best.
The 300/Charger/Magnum are very good. It's the small and midsize DCX cars that aren't good. I would name GM,Ford,Hyundai,Suzuki and Kia as worst.
Check out my post from earlier (#2568). It is not a "Base" model. It is an EX with heated leather, power doors, 6CD, Three-Zone Climate Control, etc...not a cloth strippo/base model. Honda's website will give you more info than I'm willing to divulge since this is a Sedan thread.
$37k is a loaded "Touring" model with either NAVI or DVD, the highest available trim level on the Odyssey.