The american people have lost their disposable income due to corporate greed and off-shoring !!! Why is this so hard for you to understand ??? These are the facts !!!
They are not facts. They are your perception from the very narrow view you see in Michigan. When your UAW family were fat catting it other parts of the USA were in Recession. Those are the facts. Right today we went to a fancy shopping mall and the place was packed with people at 11 AM, spending disposable income. The parking lot was filled with all shiny new cars & SUVs. Most were not domestic brands. CA has given up on the Domestics. Last time I checked they buy the most cars each year, by far. The reason is they don't like what Detroit tries to sell. They don't like buying a car that loses half its value the first year. The US auto industry has no one but themselves to blame. And I include everyone from the top guy down to the over paid guy pushing a broom. It has nothing to do with off shoring to China. Don't forget your beloved GM is one of the largest automakers in China.
There is not ONE Domestic car that is 100% US made. My Sequoia made in Indiana is as much US made as any SUV built by GM.
We already shot down your Japan argument. Most Japanese autoworkers are treated like slaves.
They are not facts. They are your perception from the very narrow view you see in Michigan. When your UAW family were fat catting it other parts of the USA were in Recession. Those are the facts. Right today we went to a fancy shopping mall and the place was packed with people at 11 AM, spending disposable income.
Well you live in a wealthy part of San Diego, thus your view of america might be through rose colored glasses.
CA has given up on the Domestics. Last time I checked they buy the most cars each year, by far. The reason is they don't like what Detroit tries to sell. They don't like buying a car that loses half its value the first year. The US auto industry has no one but themselves to blame. And I include everyone from the top guy down to the over paid guy pushing a broom. It has nothing to do with off shoring to China. Don't forget your beloved GM is one of the largest automakers in China.
Californians are mocked daily at the way many think !!! Why is that ??? Toyota and Honda, has ran a tough campaign for many years on making their brands as american as apple pie !!!
There is not ONE Domestic car that is 100% US made. My Sequoia made in Indiana is as much US made as any SUV built by GM.
True, but your money goes back to Japan, and your money doesn't support nearly as many american citizens !!!! :sick:
We already shot down your Japan argument. Most Japanese autoworkers are treated like slaves.
I will need more evidence !!! I've watched interviews with JAW, workers and one article or disgruntled worker doesn't make it so !!! My aunt has vistited Japan, and saw how things are done at Toyota, because she owned a Toyota forklift company and brought back pictures and met JAW, employees !!!
Dallasdude, you better wake up out of your reverie. The UAW has killed the auto industry. They are the reason why the BIg 3 are failing. Period.
gardis, may I ask politely just how is the UAW, to be fully blamed ??? :surprise: I have a feeling you have nary a clue about this subject matter and would make a reasonable assumption you base your facts on what you read from biased media sources, no ?
talking about being fair here - ideas hmmm, what kind of restrictions should be laid upon the Big 3 if they get the Loan :confuse: ~and according to Michael Moore
>.....I am sick and tired of the media hammering about the Big 3's CEO's flying in corporate jets and left the unanswered question of does the CEO's of Toyota and Honda, fly on private jets ????
May I respectfully suggest an even bigger problem is overlooked in the "big 3 fly corporate jets" mirage. Stay with me; the point is not political but media-oriented: The media made big news about trivial things because they could put it on every outlet from morning yapping head shows to Dan Rather's surrogate nightly news about negative trivial things. So everyone knew the cost of Palin's wardrobe, allegedly, but didn't know the cost of Andrea Mitchell's outfit or of Michel's designer gown or the president-elect's suits.
The media realized they were very effective this time. They are using that technique on the big 3. The media doesn't ask how Pelosi flies to California. I believe that's on military aircraft and she demanded a larger one because she has to have staff people with her (they can't fly coach or first class). I'll bet the congressfolk in the hearings fly on "donated" corporate jets of benefactors or even their own at least part of the time. If the media were actually journalists they would be reporting this morning about the travel methods of the congressfolk.
In fact, do they have limosines paid for by US to get to and fro in DC? Or do they drive a Prius or Echo? Do they carpool or use taxis as groups to reduce pollution and expense to US taxpayers? Where are the journalists?
And I agree the Honda leaders in Japan if they were here would be on a corporate jet along with Toyota. But the real story isn't pursued because the media has a bias and have learned they can use it. It got your guy elected by an electorate who know little about him because the pop media hid most of the real negatives from the electorate. Efforts by the ultra conservative people were defused by the mainstream media when they tried to tell people about the pig-in-a-poke they were voting for.
Watch to see if any media outlet pursues the real story beyond the senators giving political speeches with a question added on, sometimes. I'm tired of hearings where they are campaigns rather than real investigations for solutions. The hearings need to be held by people with real business experience and degrees rather than idiot congressfolk asking things their aides have written out in advance. We held meeetings much more penetrating where I used to work to find facts than these people do in DC. --Keith
The morning paper has a lettter about cuts GM is making.
"Car manufacturers are making cuts
News stories about the automotive companies' bailout overlook several things. One would think these companies are doing nothing to help themselves. That is not true.
General Motors is cutting retiree benefits to compete better with Toyota. As a salaried retiree, my husband loses health care in January, a benefit which has not been free to us. Thanks to my husband's pension, we can pay for health care ourselves. It's probably not as good, but still, we are paying, and not relying on some social agency.
When Toyota's and Honda's U.S. employees retire without a pension, who will they look to for health care? Darn right — the U.S. government and ever larger entitlement programs.
Finally, never mentioned on TV or in the newspaper, is that profits from the cars built and sold here return to Japan, Korea, etc., and do nothing to stimulate our economy, adding to the imbalance in trade.
"Buying American" has never been more important. Name City"
The problem is the UAW retirees aren't having to pay more (any?) of their healthcare. Their retiree pay is great and their packages are great.
What are they doing to help reduce costs for their company to survive.
I realize that people who took early buyouts may not receive the same healthcare, vison, dental, legal, etc., benefits of the hourly retirees. But GM's problem (and Ford's and Chrysler's) isn't the people no longer holding obligations by GM.
What's needed is for UAW to take a stand that reality is here. They will agree to meaningful reductions in benefits to retirees past and present and to highest paid veteran workers to lower the cost for the corporations.
Otherwise I see UAW being effete in their obstinate demands just as I saw Gettlefinger make last weekend. :P
"How's this bailout of the auto industry going to work?
"Will the executives work for $1, like Lee Iacocca did when Chrysler was aided? Remember that Chrysler got a loan, not a welfare blank check.
"Will federal aid help the idiots in Detroit who had the short-sighted business plan of getting the greatest profits from selling dinosaur SUVs like Yukons and Denalis?
"Soon we won't have a free market such that I can buy a Honda or Toyota. Then will Toyota be expected to get aid if its profits are down nearly 74 percent from a year ago?
"Where will the money come from? We never seem to have it for things like schools, roads, bridges or even bullets for our troops?
"Just remember: Everything will be just fine since we don't have a Republican in the White House any longer. It's all his fault." Name City
It's always amusing to see the Monday morning quarterbacks critique the bad decisions of the management. I would like to hear Mr. Writer of this letter tell exactly what products he would produce during the next year for GM and which plants and what prices. He can base this on the cost of gasoline each month during the next 12 months, which he probably doesn't know even if he's a futures trader in commodities.
He's good at the past. But he's overlooking that the management can't shut down a plant in an area because agreements were demanded by the union, and the management signed, mandating employment numbers in each plant. Hence the Job Banks programs to keep people working at something because GM couldn't close that plant or reduce its workforce.
Mr. Letterwriter probably doesn't understand that GM can't just cancel the orders for the chasses, sheetmetal, and other parts overnight and close a plant for a few weeks or permanently. They also can't open a plant in a week and start building more Malibus.
This post relates to the UAW because their demands and lack of flexibility starting decades in the past are one part of the flexibility in production problems.
Another problem is the old plants are not easily sold off. The government mandates (the same congressfolk critizing the use of corporate jets) means EPA problems require cleanup of contaminants from the past when the requirements were not as strict. Can't sell a plant with a huge cleanup bill remaining, even if there were buyers.
Wow! Now that's amazing! You know I'm hardly a champion of Toyota, but that's the first time I ever heard somebody say something bad about the 1992 Camry. I was always led to believe the 1992-era Camry was the best one of them all and subsequent generations got cheaper and less reliable. I knew a guy who had a 1992 Camry and he beat the heck out of it and it was still going.
I can believe that an early '80s Supra was better than that era's 'Vettes. The 'Vette was pretty much at its nadir from the mid '70s through the early '80s.
By the look of things, I think Toyota is poised to become the next GM...of the '70s!
Heck, when I was growing up in the late 1960s/early 1970s, I was taught the polar opposite. My Dad would take us to a store to look at tools and showed us how to read the package. If it said "Made in Japan" or some other Asian country, Dad wrote it off a junk and searched for another tool. He'd show us the inferior forging and explain the inferior metallurgy.
When I was a teen I had a set of Taiwanese socket wrenches as it was all I could afford. I was changing out the U-joints on my '68 Buick and to knock the bearing out of the ear, you'd take a socket and smack it with a sledge hammer. Well, I tried it with my cheap socket and the socket mushed down like a wax crayon. The bearing didn't even budge Dad thought it was funny and then gave me one of his S.K. Wayne sockets from 1964 to knock it out. I hit it with the hammer and the bearing popped out on the first smack. The socket didn't even have a scratch on it.
My Dad once ended up working at Lowe's because he lost his manufacturing job of 24 years. He once observed, "If everything in this store was made here, nobody would be out of work!"
I have a friend that bought a few used 92-93 Camry v6's and they were an exceptional car at the time regarding quality. Reliability may not have been as good as some others. The Camry's my friend had stayed exceptionally tight and refined well past 100k, but lots of things started to fail after 100k like window motors and switches etc. One of them had a trans die shortly after 130k. What impressed me with those cars were how refined they were compared to cars like a Taurus and Lumina etc. I drove the 93 Camry v6 back to back with my wife's 01 Impala at the time, and the 93 Camry with 100k miles was quieter, tighter, and drove nicer. It felt like a luxury car where the Impala felt cheap.
I still see 92 era Camrys. Can't say the last time I saw a Lumina. Those were horrid inside and out and were complete garbage. Taurus's of the time were marginally better.
"I am sick and tired of the media hammering about the Big 3's CEO's flying in corporate jets and left the unanswered question of does the CEO's of Toyota and Honda, fly on private jets ????"
rockylee & imidazol97 -
You guys just don't get it. The media / US citizens should care less how the CEO's of Toyota and Honda are getting around. Hell, I wouldn't care if they were using a space ship to get from place to place. The reason is simple...
Toyota and Honda execs are not the people whining/begging for $25 billion of US taxpayer money, while at the same time claiming to be serious about fixing their bloated, cash-hemorrhaging companies.
How would you respond if a family member showed up on your doorstep claiming they must have $25,000 or they wouldn't survive the winter, then driving away in their Rolls Royce Phantom after getting your money?
I was changing out the U-joints on my '68 Buick and to knock the bearing out of the ear, you'd take a socket and smack it with a sledge hammer.
:surprise: :sick: Yeesh. While your Dad was telling you about cheap tools, he should have taken a moment to explain how to use a bearing puller instead of abusing the tools you already had. Anyway, your comment about how the "cheap Taiwanese" sockets were all you could afford is the crucial point: most people then didn't have the money to buy a shed full of expensive, overbuilt American-made tools, so they bought the cheap foreign stuff they could afford. Then and now, American products made with union labor are the rich man's domain.
dallasdude: Prior she had a 92 Camry which was a piece of fecal matter. You would not believe the price of parts on Toyota's these days. Those years of Camry are rated as poor for reliability.
Not from what I've read. And anyone who thinks that an early 1990s Camry is unreliable apparently hasn't suffered through owership of an early 1990s Taurus with the 3.8 V-6 and exploding transmission; any Chrysler LH car; or the GM W-bodies from that era.
Pelosi got a bigger plane because the one that Hastert used couldn't fly to California without refueling. Since she's 3rd in line to POTUS, that was deemed unacceptable. Michelle showed up on the View wearing an off-the-rack dress that cost under $200. The media asked all these questions. The bruising two year primary season got all sorts of information out on the table. Instead of listening to talking heads, liberal or ultra-conservative, you can turn on CSPAN TV or radio and listen to the automaker bailout hearings until your eyes and ears glaze over.
Did anyone find out if Gettelfinger flew coach to DC?
How much ends up back in Japan? What percentage of a domestic vehicle purchase ends up in an offshore hedge fund account, to avoid taxes? I think you are trying to justify the waste in the Big 3. It is well known that Japanese executives get paid much less than the Big 3. You continually rail about the overpaid US executives. Why would you want them to continue in their old ways. Or do you justify it with high paid UAW workers?
I've watched interviews with JAW, workers
What percentage of the Japanese automotive industry workers are covered by the JAW? If it is the same as UAW in the USA, it is minuscule. I would be surprised if 1 in 10 workers involved in the total domestic auto industry are UAW. You have little interest in the sales guy in Wyoming that sits for days with no income because he cannot give a new Chevy away. While the Hyundai and Honda sales person is doing better, because they are building cars the PEOPLE want to buy. I repeat your view of the Domestic auto industry is very narrow.
even though you may be surprised to learn that ToMoCo's been on a two-tier wage system for decades). Kernaghan's beef is with the automaker's suppliers. "Toyota's much admired 'Just in Time' auto parts supply chain is riddled with sweatshop abuse," he insists. "Including the trafficking of foreign guest workers, mostly from China and Vietnam to Japan. They're stripped of their passports and often forced to work– including at subcontract plants supplying Toyota– 16 hours a day, seven days a week, while being paid less than half the legal minimum wage. Guest workers who complain about abusive conditions are deported."
>You guys just don't get it. The media / US citizens should care less how the CEO's of Toyota and Honda are getting around.
You just don't get it. The public/media should care less about how the executives are getting around. They are in business and most likely didn't fly so they could read Reader's Digest during the flight; they were probably _working_ while traveling. That is most certainly the same as the Honda and Toyota management do while traveling on company time.
But what the media did is what they did during the campaign in that they have trivialized the real business at hand. They took control of what people were looking at and thinking about in re the hearings.
I want to hear penetrating questions about what could be done, needs to be done, shouldn't be done to save the US auto industry. Soundbites should be low in importance on the media's part.
I want to hear penetrating questions about what could be done, needs to be done, shouldn't be done to save the US auto industry. Soundbites should be low in importance on the media's part.
I think if Wagoner had come in with a list of cuts in labor and management that would translate into a survival plan, the media would have reported that, instead of the peripheral foo foo.
> I have you would realize just how much nicer the Malibu and Aura, is over the Camcord !!!
I don't disagree with that. My point is that bringing the quality to within the camcord standards is not going to cut it. Not immediately. It has to be something more than that.
"Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money "
The company for which my wife works, a fortune 500 company with no record of loss for the last 50 years, sold all it's private jets last month in an effort to reduce cost and remain competitive in this worsening economy. Was that wrong?
I guess it is. They should have retained the private jets, and asked for bailout money from the government.
I stand by what I said. Let GM and UAW work for minimum wage if they want the bailout money. If not, they can kiss my ( . )
>They are for fair capitalism and always have been !!! The UAW, has never supported globalism which your pseudo-capitalist's eutopia !!!
Ha ha.....now u r talking.
UAW wanted more money because they knew the executives were certainly going to earn more by going global (and cheap sourcing). They were thinking "I turn my face away on your bad deeds, you turn away from mine". But little did they realize that the consumer also turned their face away from both of them. Let them rot.
The company for which my wife works, a fortune 500 company with no record of loss for the last 50 years, sold all it's private jets last month in an effort to reduce cost and remain competitive in this worsening economy. Was that wrong?
My wife is in middle management for a Fortune 50 company that's had over 30 years of sales and profit growth. From the CEO down everyone flies coach and they've never owned a corporate jet. But I guess that is the difference between well run companies and those which need handouts.
Like the people that "Super Size" everything, your view is too short. Whatever happened to having a business make money and reinvest it to support excellent products? If it can't it ends. Simple.
Congress just gave the 3 Amigos the change to make their case again in 3 weeks. IOW, they failed to sway the Congress to "Show Them the Money"
Why? No real plan for sustainability. Just the same old crying and scare tactics.
Now, it's time to drastically change... and to prove they can return to profitability.
"Pelosi got a bigger plane because the one that Hastert used couldn't fly to California without refueling. Since she's 3rd in line to POTUS, that was deemed unacceptable."
What is really sad is that GM does not own the jets they use. They sold them years ago to save money. They rent them as needed.
Ah, so the rest of the story trickles out? I bet Ford owns a jet or two - I think Mulally commutes to Seattle most weekends.
Bush has laid the Detroit mess at the feet of Congress, basically saying fix it or take any blame if the situation gets worse while you take your two month vacation. Any bets on whether Bush will call a special session to continue work on the economy?
Puck the politics, Puck the pay rate and all that shut. ALL WE WANT IS NICE, RELIABLE, WELL PRICED CAR!!! If we get it you will get your money. If your car is not good as import even after 100 bailout you'll still go bankrupt.
"You just don't get it. The public/media should care less about how the executives are getting around."
So we should let the Big 3 continue their obscene spending on things like private jets while the taxpayers give them $25 billion?
Here are comments from two posters... "The company for which my wife works, a fortune 500 company with no record of loss for the last 50 years, sold all it's private jets last month in an effort to reduce cost and remain competitive in this worsening economy. Was that wrong?
I guess it is. They should have retained the private jets, and asked for bailout money from the government."
"My wife is in middle management for a Fortune 50 company that's had over 30 years of sales and profit growth. From the CEO down everyone flies coach and they've never owned a corporate jet. But I guess that is the difference between well run companies and those which need handouts."
So while responsible, well-run companies do without things like private jets, you think it is OK for the Big 3 to parade around in them, at the same time they are on the brink of going under. Good thinking on your part!
It's not my thinking that's to be criticized here. I don't know what the two posters know about running large companies, but one poster pointed out that GM doesn't own any private jets; indeed they rent them. :shades:
"What is really sad is that GM does not own the jets they use. They sold them years ago to save money. They rent them as needed. " :shades: 62vettefp, Post 5247
I saw a live interview of Mr. Gettelfinger today. He cited another Toledo person surviving on a $322 / month retirement. He didn't mention what kind of healthcare benefits were being paid and any other benefits. This example just doesn"t sound plausible>
I wonder what the retirement statistics are on people who retired after full term in UAW at auto companies and their retirement pay. This doesn't match with what I see around here. I do know one person who will know about the rates for some people with whom he works in his car restoration/hot rod group. I'll ask him when I see him.
I didn"t see the beginning of the statement so there may have been more to the explanation>
I"m expecting to hear that UAW will be willing to take some concessions for the high costs of production...
"What is really sad is that GM does not own the jets they use. They sold them years ago to save money. They rent them as needed. " :shades: 62vettefp, Post 5247
Apology accepted at any time...
I'm sure with as much traveling a CEO for the big 3 does, a private/corporate jet saves a lot of time and maybe justified. It just doesn't look good flying in one to washington to beg for money. The last thing they needed to do was give the media soundbites on the issue. Maybe Waggoner should have called Mulally to hitch a ride. LOL.
You guys just don't get it. The media / US citizens should care less how the CEO's of Toyota and Honda are getting around. Hell, I wouldn't care if they were using a space ship to get from place to place. The reason is simple...
Well you obviously haven't read your history book because Japan, subsidized Toyota, in the 1960's-1980's and are currently doing it with Mitsubishi, Isuzu, last I knew to be competitive worldwide.
Toyota and Honda execs are not the people whining/begging for $25 billion of US taxpayer money, while at the same time claiming to be serious about fixing their bloated, cash-hemorrhaging companies.
Correct we've given the away team all the advantages !!! Instead of treating their cars like they do ours we kiss their donk !!! :mad:
How would you respond if a family member showed up on your doorstep claiming they must have $25,000 or they wouldn't survive the winter, then driving away in their Rolls Royce Phantom after getting your money?
That isn't the case !!! There is a alot of blame to go around but our governments policy on trade is to be partially blamed and thus should take responsibility for their mistakes !!! They are the ones that allowed foreigners to dump on our market like they did back in the day with Japan !!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
I saw a live interview of Mr. Gettelfinger today. He cited another Toledo person surviving on a $322 / month retirement.
To my knowledge most pension benefits do not have a cost of living adjustment. Plus, without knowing what that person did for a living, how long they worked, and how long they've been retired, you can't really make much of it.
My grandma retired in the early 70's from Sears. I think she worked for them for about 15 years and her pension was like $200/mo.
My Grandpa retired with 40 years service from Republic steel (later was LTV) in '79 and I think his pension was around $1000 before it went to the PBGC in 2000, then it was like $600
Then and now, American products made with union labor are the rich man's domain.
That isn't true !!! Go shop a pair of union made jeans vs. the cost of a pair of Levi's or some of the other popular brands !!! Just because it's foreign made doesn't make it less expensive. Bose, use to make all their stuff here and since they moved operations over sea's their quality has taken a dive but their prices sure haven't !!!! :surprise:
That is simply not true !!! I was there and involved in the ANTI-NAFTA, movement. My grandmother was a IUE union rep and was against globalization despite what the experts said regarding job creation. Sure it created jobs but all were low paying ones !!! :sick:
Let's show the U.S. how much the real economy does depend on the Big 3. On all of your paper money write these words: "This $ made by the Big 3"
As it circulates around the nation, every person who touches it will have proof in their hands how they are personally impacted by the US auto industry.
Copy this message, and paste it into every forum and comment area of every auto discussion you can find.
Canada, Germany and even Romania has said they are willing to help the US automakers. Where is OUR government????
Any bets on whether Bush will call a special session to continue work on the economy?
Why would he want to? No matter what he does he will be castigated by the media. He has handed the mess over to the 110th Congress that I feel is most responsible for where we are financially. I see Obama has taken a head in the sand stance on the automakers dilemma.
"I can tell you flat out there will be no endorsement [by Mr. Obama] prior to January 20," said Senate Banking Committee Chariman Christopher J. Dodd of Connecticut a day after his committee heard a combined appeal for billions of dollars in taxpayer help from the heads of General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co, and Chrysler LLC.
He got the UAW vote and already forgot their names.
Canada, Germany and even Romania has said they are willing to help the US automakers.
I don't know about Canada or Romania. Germany said we will think about it and let you know around Christmas. Canada should be worried they have as much to lose as any state.
Those are non-union workers and are that of supplier plants...re read the article before you hammer me !!!
You have made the statement many times that Japanese autoworkers are treated very well with lots of benefits. That is flat false. Only the elite few JAW workers have those high paying jobs and great perks. Same as the UAW workers in this country.
You keep worrying about my good job. They have openings for anyone that can handle the job. That means no whining when you have to splice cable and it is 40 below zero and the wind is blowing 40 MPH.
>The last thing they needed to do was give the media sound bites on the issue
I think our problem isn't the transportation to DC for the executives, but rather the media itself. After the election I feel this more and more. Here it shows. The media should go after facts--like the pay of the executives compared to the Japanese. Or the pay of the UAW highest paid (NOT the new employees at the NEW rate).
The media is our problem. BTW, how do the media get around? Does Tom Brokaw, NBC, fly coach? Or does he use an NBC/GE jet? Just like the congressfolk taking lobbying and campaign contributions from people and then criticizing the auto execs, the mediafolk probably don't have any room. But it plays well with Peoria like the Alaska hick jokes they ran on Palin. Sad.
If the execs had flown coach, they probably would have been criticized by the same media for not traveling so that they could stay in communication with the peons back at the office and couldn't effectively work during that travel time. The media would point out that with all the pressing problems, the execs needed to be working ALL the time.
Frankly, I view some of the media as the epitome of the nagging, witchy wife (or husband).
GM did not have competitive models to Lexus, Acura and Infiniti when these were introduced in late 80's and never was able to catch them. If GM were great back then, perhaps Lexus, Acura and Inifiniti would have withered and died for lack of sales early on.
Those cars were aimed at the young buyers (yuppie market) who were opting for BMW/Benz. GM has also been trying to shed the image of making cars for older folks.
Comments
They are not facts. They are your perception from the very narrow view you see in Michigan. When your UAW family were fat catting it other parts of the USA were in Recession. Those are the facts. Right today we went to a fancy shopping mall and the place was packed with people at 11 AM, spending disposable income. The parking lot was filled with all shiny new cars & SUVs. Most were not domestic brands. CA has given up on the Domestics. Last time I checked they buy the most cars each year, by far. The reason is they don't like what Detroit tries to sell. They don't like buying a car that loses half its value the first year. The US auto industry has no one but themselves to blame. And I include everyone from the top guy down to the over paid guy pushing a broom. It has nothing to do with off shoring to China. Don't forget your beloved GM is one of the largest automakers in China.
There is not ONE Domestic car that is 100% US made. My Sequoia made in Indiana is as much US made as any SUV built by GM.
We already shot down your Japan argument. Most Japanese autoworkers are treated like slaves.
Well you live in a wealthy part of San Diego, thus your view of america might be through rose colored glasses.
CA has given up on the Domestics. Last time I checked they buy the most cars each year, by far. The reason is they don't like what Detroit tries to sell. They don't like buying a car that loses half its value the first year. The US auto industry has no one but themselves to blame. And I include everyone from the top guy down to the over paid guy pushing a broom. It has nothing to do with off shoring to China. Don't forget your beloved GM is one of the largest automakers in China.
Californians are mocked daily at the way many think !!! Why is that ??? Toyota and Honda, has ran a tough campaign for many years on making their brands as american as apple pie !!!
There is not ONE Domestic car that is 100% US made. My Sequoia made in Indiana is as much US made as any SUV built by GM.
True, but your money goes back to Japan, and your money doesn't support nearly as many american citizens !!!! :sick:
We already shot down your Japan argument. Most Japanese autoworkers are treated like slaves.
I will need more evidence !!! I've watched interviews with JAW, workers and one article or disgruntled worker doesn't make it so !!!
-Rocky
gardis, may I ask politely just how is the UAW, to be fully blamed ??? :surprise:
I have a feeling you have nary a clue about this subject matter and would make a reasonable assumption you base your facts on what you read from biased media sources, no ?
-Rocky
hmmm, what kind of restrictions should be laid upon the Big 3 if they get the Loan
:confuse:
~and according to Michael Moore
May I respectfully suggest an even bigger problem is overlooked in the "big 3 fly corporate jets" mirage. Stay with me; the point is not political but media-oriented: The media made big news about trivial things because they could put it on every outlet from morning yapping head shows to Dan Rather's surrogate nightly news about negative trivial things. So everyone knew the cost of Palin's wardrobe, allegedly, but didn't know the cost of Andrea Mitchell's outfit or of Michel's designer gown or the president-elect's suits.
The media realized they were very effective this time. They are using that technique on the big 3. The media doesn't ask how Pelosi flies to California. I believe that's on military aircraft and she demanded a larger one because she has to have staff people with her (they can't fly coach or first class). I'll bet the congressfolk in the hearings fly on "donated" corporate jets of benefactors or even their own at least part of the time. If the media were actually journalists they would be reporting this morning about the travel methods of the congressfolk.
In fact, do they have limosines paid for by US to get to and fro in DC? Or do they drive a Prius or Echo? Do they carpool or use taxis as groups to reduce pollution and expense to US taxpayers? Where are the journalists?
And I agree the Honda leaders in Japan if they were here would be on a corporate jet along with Toyota. But the real story isn't pursued because the media has a bias and have learned they can use it. It got your guy elected by an electorate who know little about him because the pop media hid most of the real negatives from the electorate. Efforts by the ultra conservative people were defused by the mainstream media when they tried to tell people about the pig-in-a-poke they were voting for.
Watch to see if any media outlet pursues the real story beyond the senators giving political speeches with a question added on, sometimes. I'm tired of hearings where they are campaigns rather than real investigations for solutions. The hearings need to be held by people with real business experience and degrees rather than idiot congressfolk asking things their aides have written out in advance. We held meeetings much more penetrating where I used to work to find facts than these people do in DC. --Keith
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
"Car manufacturers are making cuts
News stories about the automotive companies' bailout overlook several things. One would think these companies are doing nothing to help themselves. That is not true.
General Motors is cutting retiree benefits to compete better with Toyota. As a salaried retiree, my husband loses health care in January, a benefit which has not been free to us. Thanks to my husband's pension, we can pay for health care ourselves. It's probably not as good, but still, we are paying, and not relying on some social agency.
When Toyota's and Honda's U.S. employees retire without a pension, who will they look to for health care? Darn right — the U.S. government and ever larger entitlement programs.
Finally, never mentioned on TV or in the newspaper, is that profits from the cars built and sold here return to Japan, Korea, etc., and do nothing to stimulate our economy, adding to the imbalance in trade.
"Buying American" has never been more important.
Name
City"
The problem is the UAW retirees aren't having to pay more (any?) of their healthcare. Their retiree pay is great and their packages are great.
What are they doing to help reduce costs for their company to survive.
I realize that people who took early buyouts may not receive the same healthcare, vison, dental, legal, etc., benefits of the hourly retirees. But GM's problem (and Ford's and Chrysler's) isn't the people no longer holding obligations by GM.
What's needed is for UAW to take a stand that reality is here. They will agree to meaningful reductions in benefits to retirees past and present and to highest paid veteran workers to lower the cost for the corporations.
Otherwise I see UAW being effete in their obstinate demands just as I saw Gettlefinger make last weekend. :P
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
"Where will aid come from, or stop?
"How's this bailout of the auto industry going to work?
"Will the executives work for $1, like Lee Iacocca did when Chrysler was aided? Remember that Chrysler got a loan, not a welfare blank check.
"Will federal aid help the idiots in Detroit who had the short-sighted business plan of getting the greatest profits from selling dinosaur SUVs like Yukons and Denalis?
"Soon we won't have a free market such that I can buy a Honda or Toyota. Then will Toyota be expected to get aid if its profits are down nearly 74 percent from a year ago?
"Where will the money come from? We never seem to have it for things like schools, roads, bridges or even bullets for our troops?
"Just remember: Everything will be just fine since we don't have a Republican in the White House any longer. It's all his fault."
Name
City
It's always amusing to see the Monday morning quarterbacks critique the bad decisions of the management. I would like to hear Mr. Writer of this letter tell exactly what products he would produce during the next year for GM and which plants and what prices. He can base this on the cost of gasoline each month during the next 12 months, which he probably doesn't know even if he's a futures trader in commodities.
He's good at the past. But he's overlooking that the management can't shut down a plant in an area because agreements were demanded by the union, and the management signed, mandating employment numbers in each plant. Hence the Job Banks programs to keep people working at something because GM couldn't close that plant or reduce its workforce.
Mr. Letterwriter probably doesn't understand that GM can't just cancel the orders for the chasses, sheetmetal, and other parts overnight and close a plant for a few weeks or permanently. They also can't open a plant in a week and start building more Malibus.
This post relates to the UAW because their demands and lack of flexibility starting decades in the past are one part of the flexibility in production problems.
Another problem is the old plants are not easily sold off. The government mandates (the same congressfolk critizing the use of corporate jets) means EPA problems require cleanup of contaminants from the past when the requirements were not as strict. Can't sell a plant with a huge cleanup bill remaining, even if there were buyers.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I can believe that an early '80s Supra was better than that era's 'Vettes. The 'Vette was pretty much at its nadir from the mid '70s through the early '80s.
By the look of things, I think Toyota is poised to become the next GM...of the '70s!
Heck, when I was growing up in the late 1960s/early 1970s, I was taught the polar opposite. My Dad would take us to a store to look at tools and showed us how to read the package. If it said "Made in Japan" or some other Asian country, Dad wrote it off a junk and searched for another tool. He'd show us the inferior forging and explain the inferior metallurgy.
When I was a teen I had a set of Taiwanese socket wrenches as it was all I could afford. I was changing out the U-joints on my '68 Buick and to knock the bearing out of the ear, you'd take a socket and smack it with a sledge hammer. Well, I tried it with my cheap socket and the socket mushed down like a wax crayon. The bearing didn't even budge Dad thought it was funny and then gave me one of his S.K. Wayne sockets from 1964 to knock it out. I hit it with the hammer and the bearing popped out on the first smack. The socket didn't even have a scratch on it.
My Dad once ended up working at Lowe's because he lost his manufacturing job of 24 years. He once observed, "If everything in this store was made here, nobody would be out of work!"
I still see 92 era Camrys. Can't say the last time I saw a Lumina. Those were horrid inside and out and were complete garbage. Taurus's of the time were marginally better.
rockylee & imidazol97 -
You guys just don't get it. The media / US citizens should care less how the CEO's of Toyota and Honda are getting around. Hell, I wouldn't care if they were using a space ship to get from place to place. The reason is simple...
Toyota and Honda execs are not the people whining/begging for $25 billion of US taxpayer money, while at the same time claiming to be serious about fixing their bloated, cash-hemorrhaging companies.
How would you respond if a family member showed up on your doorstep claiming they must have $25,000 or they wouldn't survive the winter, then driving away in their Rolls Royce Phantom after getting your money?
:surprise: :sick: Yeesh. While your Dad was telling you about cheap tools, he should have taken a moment to explain how to use a bearing puller instead of abusing the tools you already had. Anyway, your comment about how the "cheap Taiwanese" sockets were all you could afford is the crucial point: most people then didn't have the money to buy a shed full of expensive, overbuilt American-made tools, so they bought the cheap foreign stuff they could afford. Then and now, American products made with union labor are the rich man's domain.
Not from what I've read. And anyone who thinks that an early 1990s Camry is unreliable apparently hasn't suffered through owership of an early 1990s Taurus with the 3.8 V-6 and exploding transmission; any Chrysler LH car; or the GM W-bodies from that era.
Did anyone find out if Gettelfinger flew coach to DC?
How much ends up back in Japan? What percentage of a domestic vehicle purchase ends up in an offshore hedge fund account, to avoid taxes? I think you are trying to justify the waste in the Big 3. It is well known that Japanese executives get paid much less than the Big 3. You continually rail about the overpaid US executives. Why would you want them to continue in their old ways. Or do you justify it with high paid UAW workers?
I've watched interviews with JAW, workers
What percentage of the Japanese automotive industry workers are covered by the JAW? If it is the same as UAW in the USA, it is minuscule. I would be surprised if 1 in 10 workers involved in the total domestic auto industry are UAW. You have little interest in the sales guy in Wyoming that sits for days with no income because he cannot give a new Chevy away. While the Hyundai and Honda sales person is doing better, because they are building cars the PEOPLE want to buy. I repeat your view of the Domestic auto industry is very narrow.
even though you may be surprised to learn that ToMoCo's been on a two-tier wage system for decades). Kernaghan's beef is with the automaker's suppliers. "Toyota's much admired 'Just in Time' auto parts supply chain is riddled with sweatshop abuse," he insists. "Including the trafficking of foreign guest workers, mostly from China and Vietnam to Japan. They're stripped of their passports and often forced to work– including at subcontract plants supplying Toyota– 16 hours a day, seven days a week, while being paid less than half the legal minimum wage. Guest workers who complain about abusive conditions are deported."
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/national-labor-committee-alleges-toyota-supplie- r-sweatshops/
You just don't get it. The public/media should care less about how the executives are getting around. They are in business and most likely didn't fly so they could read Reader's Digest during the flight; they were probably _working_ while traveling. That is most certainly the same as the Honda and Toyota management do while traveling on company time.
But what the media did is what they did during the campaign in that they have trivialized the real business at hand. They took control of what people were looking at and thinking about in re the hearings.
I want to hear penetrating questions about what could be done, needs to be done, shouldn't be done to save the US auto industry. Soundbites should be low in importance on the media's part.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think if Wagoner had come in with a list of cuts in labor and management that would translate into a survival plan, the media would have reported that, instead of the peripheral foo foo.
I don't disagree with that.
My point is that bringing the quality to within the camcord standards is not going to cut it. Not immediately. It has to be something more than that.
"Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money "
The company for which my wife works, a fortune 500 company with no record of loss for the last 50 years, sold all it's private jets last month in an effort to reduce cost and remain competitive in this worsening economy. Was that wrong?
I guess it is. They should have retained the private jets, and asked for bailout money from the government.
I stand by what I said. Let GM and UAW work for minimum wage if they want the bailout money. If not, they can kiss my ( . )
link title
Ha ha.....now u r talking.
UAW wanted more money because they knew the executives were certainly going to earn more by going global (and cheap sourcing). They were thinking "I turn my face away on your bad deeds, you turn away from mine". But little did they realize that the consumer also turned their face away from both of them. Let them rot.
Right. Munich don't have any dipsticks....so u r ok there
My wife is in middle management for a Fortune 50 company that's had over 30 years of sales and profit growth. From the CEO down everyone flies coach and they've never owned a corporate jet. But I guess that is the difference between well run companies and those which need handouts.
Yeah, I'm not to impresssed with that decision. I think I'm going to flip the Mazda and get a CPO E46 330i ZHP.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Congress just gave the 3 Amigos the change to make their case again in 3 weeks. IOW, they failed to sway the Congress to "Show Them the Money"
Why? No real plan for sustainability. Just the same old crying and scare tactics.
Now, it's time to drastically change... and to prove they can return to profitability.
Regards,
OW
What is really sad is that GM does not own the jets they use. They sold them years ago to save money. They rent them as needed.
Bush has laid the Detroit mess at the feet of Congress, basically saying fix it or take any blame if the situation gets worse while you take your two month vacation. Any bets on whether Bush will call a special session to continue work on the economy?
ALL WE WANT IS NICE, RELIABLE, WELL PRICED CAR!!!
If we get it you will get your money. If your car is not good as import even after 100 bailout you'll still go bankrupt.
So we should let the Big 3 continue their obscene spending on things like private jets while the taxpayers give them $25 billion?
Here are comments from two posters...
"The company for which my wife works, a fortune 500 company with no record of loss for the last 50 years, sold all it's private jets last month in an effort to reduce cost and remain competitive in this worsening economy. Was that wrong?
I guess it is. They should have retained the private jets, and asked for bailout money from the government."
"My wife is in middle management for a Fortune 50 company that's had over 30 years of sales and profit growth. From the CEO down everyone flies coach and they've never owned a corporate jet. But I guess that is the difference between well run companies and those which need handouts."
So while responsible, well-run companies do without things like private jets, you think it is OK for the Big 3 to parade around in them, at the same time they are on the brink of going under. Good thinking on your part!
It's not my thinking that's to be criticized here. I don't know what the two posters know about running large companies, but one poster pointed out that GM doesn't own any private jets; indeed they rent them. :shades:
"What is really sad is that GM does not own the jets they use. They sold them years ago to save money. They rent them as needed. " :shades:
62vettefp,
Post 5247
Apology accepted at any time...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I wonder what the retirement statistics are on people who retired after full term in UAW at auto companies and their retirement pay. This doesn't match with what I see around here. I do know one person who will know about the rates for some people with whom he works in his car restoration/hot rod group. I'll ask him when I see him.
I didn"t see the beginning of the statement so there may have been more to the explanation>
I"m expecting to hear that UAW will be willing to take some concessions for the high costs of production...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
There healthcare isn't 100% employer paid pal !!! Go look at the UAW contract !!!
-Rocky
"The Rock"
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
your father obviously was a very bright man with common sense !!!
-Rocky
62vettefp,
Post 5247
Apology accepted at any time...
I'm sure with as much traveling a CEO for the big 3 does, a private/corporate jet saves a lot of time and maybe justified. It just doesn't look good flying in one to washington to beg for money. The last thing they needed to do was give the media soundbites on the issue. Maybe Waggoner should have called Mulally to hitch a ride. LOL.
Well you obviously haven't read your history book because Japan, subsidized Toyota, in the 1960's-1980's and are currently doing it with Mitsubishi, Isuzu, last I knew to be competitive worldwide.
Toyota and Honda execs are not the people whining/begging for $25 billion of US taxpayer money, while at the same time claiming to be serious about fixing their bloated, cash-hemorrhaging companies.
Correct we've given the away team all the advantages !!! Instead of treating their cars like they do ours we kiss their donk !!! :mad:
How would you respond if a family member showed up on your doorstep claiming they must have $25,000 or they wouldn't survive the winter, then driving away in their Rolls Royce Phantom after getting your money?
That isn't the case !!! There is a alot of blame to go around but our governments policy on trade is to be partially blamed and thus should take responsibility for their mistakes !!! They are the ones that allowed foreigners to dump on our market like they did back in the day with Japan !!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
-Rocky
To my knowledge most pension benefits do not have a cost of living adjustment. Plus, without knowing what that person did for a living, how long they worked, and how long they've been retired, you can't really make much of it.
My grandma retired in the early 70's from Sears. I think she worked for them for about 15 years and her pension was like $200/mo.
My Grandpa retired with 40 years service from Republic steel (later was LTV) in '79 and I think his pension was around $1000 before it went to the PBGC in 2000, then it was like $600
That isn't true !!! Go shop a pair of union made jeans vs. the cost of a pair of Levi's or some of the other popular brands !!!
-Rocky
I find it laughable that a union guy who made $38 an/hr himself calls UAW workers high paid !!! :surprise: :confuse:
-Rocky
-Rocky
As it circulates around the nation, every person who touches it will have proof in their hands how they are personally impacted by the US auto industry.
Copy this message, and paste it into every forum and comment area of every auto discussion you can find.
Canada, Germany and even Romania has said they are willing to help the US automakers. Where is OUR government????
Why would he want to? No matter what he does he will be castigated by the media. He has handed the mess over to the 110th Congress that I feel is most responsible for where we are financially. I see Obama has taken a head in the sand stance on the automakers dilemma.
"I can tell you flat out there will be no endorsement [by Mr. Obama] prior to January 20," said Senate Banking Committee Chariman Christopher J. Dodd of Connecticut a day after his committee heard a combined appeal for billions of dollars in taxpayer help from the heads of General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co, and Chrysler LLC.
He got the UAW vote and already forgot their names.
I don't know about Canada or Romania. Germany said we will think about it and let you know around Christmas. Canada should be worried they have as much to lose as any state.
You have made the statement many times that Japanese autoworkers are treated very well with lots of benefits. That is flat false. Only the elite few JAW workers have those high paying jobs and great perks. Same as the UAW workers in this country.
You keep worrying about my good job. They have openings for anyone that can handle the job. That means no whining when you have to splice cable and it is 40 below zero and the wind is blowing 40 MPH.
I think our problem isn't the transportation to DC for the executives, but rather the media itself. After the election I feel this more and more. Here it shows. The media should go after facts--like the pay of the executives compared to the Japanese. Or the pay of the UAW highest paid (NOT the new employees at the NEW rate).
The media is our problem. BTW, how do the media get around? Does Tom Brokaw, NBC, fly coach? Or does he use an NBC/GE jet? Just like the congressfolk taking lobbying and campaign contributions from people and then criticizing the auto execs, the mediafolk probably don't have any room. But it plays well with Peoria like the Alaska hick jokes they ran on Palin. Sad.
If the execs had flown coach, they probably would have been criticized by the same media for not traveling so that they could stay in communication with the peons back at the office and couldn't effectively work during that travel time. The media would point out that with all the pressing problems, the execs needed to be working ALL the time.
Frankly, I view some of the media as the epitome of the nagging, witchy wife (or husband).
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Those cars were aimed at the young buyers (yuppie market) who were opting for BMW/Benz. GM has also been trying to shed the image of making cars for older folks.
How about a CTS V and be sure to bring the pink slip. I munched a M4 just last week with a regular 3.6 CTS.