dull looking huge pick-em-up trucks from GM right now
Are the Tundra and Titan small trucks? Toyota spent millions on a plant here in San Antonio, Texas to build Tundras and to be near the pick-up market. Their first Tundra was nothing but a cheap car (small truck parts) on a pick - up body. They beefed it up just to compete and got them a truck wheel base. Just go out and test drive the Silverado SS with 4 wheel drive and you will see that GM is light years ahead of the imports. This is Texas and pick-ups are just about every other ride here. There is a market for pick-ups and if your willing to fork over some serious cash, GM is the best. Unfortunately you seem to think that everyone wants an econ-box like yourself. Most folks tend to think that everyone has the same tastes and desires. Add to that the fact they don't test drive/research all thats out there and we have a typical consumer.
As for the CTS - it's a big improvement over the previous generation, and it's a good car, but I'm not seeing where it's BETTER than a BMW 3-Series or Mercedes C-Class. Aside from the styling, there isn't anything that really makes it stand out among its competitors. BMW still has the better driving dynamics for those who really do want the Ultimate Driving Machine, while among the status-conscious, "I drive a BMW" sounds better than "I drive a Cadillac."
The Beamer 300 series is no where near the CTS and Benz needs to go up a few notches to compete with the CTS. The CTS-V will sport Riccaro seats and will be powered by a V8. Have you ever priced the high end Beamer tires? I saw them after 70,000 miles on a friends car (great wear and grip), wrote down the brand/model, went to the tire store, was quoted $500 a piece. Unless your looking to spend $70,000, your just getting a low end model. They entered this market right after Infinity, Lexus, and Acura invaded their traditional high end market. Otherwise, BMW and Benz wouldn't have bothered. Cadillac has been trying to enter the younger buyer market and shed the image of older consumers. I think the CTS will accomplish this. More performance, creature comforts, and options.
Just go out and test drive the Silverado SS with 4 wheel drive and you will see that GM is light years ahead of the imports
Your kidding right? There is a reason why GM no longer sells the Silverado SS, IT WAS A JOKE. The only thing the SS had going for it was AWD and an extend cab. An F150 Lightning or SRT-10 would eat it's lunch. But the market for overpriced sport trucks is long gone.
From Edmunds. "This was enough to give the pickup truck a 0-60-mph time of 6.3 seconds. Though respectable, it was well off the pace set by the Lightning and Ram SRT-10. Needless to say, we weren't terribly impressed with the Chevrolet Silverado SS. It was too expensive, fell short of its performance truck competition and wasn't that much of an upgrade over regular Silverados."
I've done the 1/2 ton Chevy thing. No thanks, they're junk. I'm trying my best to stay domestic. Dumped my POS Mexican built Suburban and trying a go around with an Expedition (at least it's made in the USA). Just wish I could swap out Ford's 5.4 for a Nissan 5.6 or Toyota 5.7, better yet a diesel. Though the 5.4 has lots more towing power than what I experienced with GMs 5.3 which is a good engine until you ask it to tow 6,000lbs. then it's a dog.
I did get a kick out of the bed bounce videos on youtube. The Tundra looks like it has spaghetti noodles for the frame rails.
If UAW workers are in a tight place, why should the regular public funds help them out? Isn't that socialism of the highest degree? or are we obligated to do so because they deserve it??
Why do you assume that the UAW operates the Big Three's business? Last I heard they have executives and a board of directors, much like the Wall Street firms. Which incidentally were bailed out. We never assumed that the employees at Bear Sterns, AIG, or any of the many others were responsible for management. This reeks of a political agenda. That being that the GOP gets their buddies bailed out on Wall Street and since the UAW is involved in the manufacture of the Big Three products, they should bear responsibility for mis management. Bombard us with logic and quit the socialism red herring, which has already been extended to the ill fated banking/insurance industries ten fold. The American public might have forgotten the socialism extended to Wall Street if it was a long time ago. However, its fresh in their minds and an insult to anyone making a socialism case. Please make a case in which the banking system/Wall Street merited this so called socialism if your argument is to hold water.
If I could own any car made in 2009' I'd own a MKS AWD !!! those commercials make my heart melt for one every time I see it !!! The AWD would make Michigan's winters a snap !!! :shades:
Yeah, I dig those commercials too. Nice looking car, but I don't think it has enough meat for the money. Ford has been lacking in the engine department for a while now. I hope the upcoming Ecoboost engines will give them the ehh, "boost" they need to meet or beat the competition. The MKS definitely has good looks and a real nice looking interior.
The Beamer [sic] 300 series is no where near the CTS and Benz needs to go up a few notches to compete with the CTS.
Why are you comparing a motorcycle to a car? As any BMW aficionado can tell you, "Beamer" refers to the BMW motorcycle while "Bimmer" denotes the BMW automobile.
Are you trying to say that the Cadillac CTS sedan is superior to the BMW motorcycle because it has 2 more wheels?
circlew, I repect your posts so I am having a problem with the math, you wrote: "I already estimated that to pay off 2 million workers that all the experts way will be lost $100,000 each so they can get new jobs would cost $200B.
Assuming not all of those jobs would be lost in a reorganization hosted by new investors for one new auto company, all we need do is count back from there. " So why exactly is spending $50 billion not better than spending $200 billion. Assuming new investors in one company in this climate might be a stretch. In your basic premise I am comfortable. One must go. So screw american investors or screw a hedge fund. I vote hedge fund. Now the cost of a protracted severe recession lasting multi years versus a shorter one due to loss of consumer confidence is a different matter. The 700b that might have cost a fraction of that should not have some in the house opt for their Newt Gingrich moment ,rather than actual economics is starting to look really cheap. S'ok Please ban morons from the Republican party. They cause me too much shame. Btw, it never worked for Newt. Assuming your constituency is too stupid to grasp the big picture shows their arrogance. Lawyers deciding econonomic matters. GHU. (help)
Your UAW arrogance is showing. How about my mechanic friend that lost his job at the local Ford Agency? Why is someone in a Detroit factory anymore important than he is? He was one of millions of Americans that do not have the plush UAW contract that pays them full pay for doing NOTHING. Maybe that perk is gone and it should be as we are now seeing the results of years of wasteful spending by GM and Ford. The sooner the dead weight in the Auto industry is buried, the sooner the rebuilding can begin. I personally believe we are seeing the same kind of lies of doom and gloom that the media has been spreading this whole year. I can tell you the devastation in CA over the housing bubble is much worse than a few hundred thousand UAW workers losing their jobs. You are too emotional because of your closeness to ground zero. Michigan will never be the same. Just as anyplace that loses their source of income.
Think of it like a town losing a military base. You can go in and offer new businesses an opportunity to start over. Maybe your dream of alternative energy will flourish in Michigan. I can tell you it will not survive or flourish under the weight of the UAW mentality. NO ONE IS ENTITLED TO A HIGH PAYING JOB. No worse than my 56 year old Ford mechanic friend that is totally distraught. 10 million out of work in the USA. Many just as deserving as any UAW worker.
Even if the worst case comes true and all the Big 3 go belly up. Those 3 million total jobs lost will not equal the unemployment caused by Jimmy Carter in the late 1970s. GM is nothing special anymore. It is just another company poorly run that their time is up. You only wish that GM ever built cars that compared to Packard. Only in your dreams.
Now it is Packard's turn to laugh in his grave. Nothing is forever.
why are you being so defensive? I was against the bailout until about noon today, when I changed my mind. But large pickups are about as handsome as Dennis Rodman on steroids and smoking a big cigar. Come on!
And no, I know not everyone feels the way I do. I understand that for a lot of people pickup trucks make sense. And I haven't spent the time researching pickups, because I don't need one, nor do I want one. I would look in to them if I did and it would be a Ford or a Chevy for me, I honestly don't know which one I'd pick.
But it's wrong for you to [non-permissible content removed]ume that I don't research my vehicle before I buy one, because I spend literally hundreds of hours doing that before I lay down change for a new car. And it's got to be a new car for me. I don't like used rigs, just won't head that direction.
I do think it's better for us as an operating, interconnected, functioning huge group of people to have GM, Ford and umm...I really don't know about Chrysler. I don't think their business plan includes success in America, but if Congress OK's it for GM and Ford they'll include it for Chrysler, too.
Right. I'll take Lemmy on in an E92 M3 any day. Have you even sat in a BMW? Sure the CTS-V is a nice car, but it will be an orphan soon, along with the rest of the GM model line. Thank goodness all of my fleet is German- or will be soon. Well, the Jeep can stay, as it's part German- having been built by Daimler Chrysler. And anyway, I've fitted German shocks, headlamps, and speakers... :P
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
The Beamer[sic] 300[sic] series is no where[sic] near the CTS and Benz needs to go up a few notches to compete with the CTS. The CTS-V will sport Riccaro[sic] seats and will be powered by a V8. Have you ever priced the high end Beamer[sic] tires? I saw them after 70,000 miles on a friends car (great wear and grip), wrote down the brand/model, went to the tire store, was quoted $500 a piece. Unless your[sic] looking to spend $70,000, your[sic] just getting a low end model. They entered this market right after Infinity, Lexus, and Acura invaded their traditional high end market. Otherwise, BMW and Benz wouldn't have bothered. Cadillac has been trying to enter the younger buyer market and shed the image of older consumers. I think the CTS will accomplish this. More performance, creature comforts, and options.
Yes, I'm sure the Cadillac Juggernaut is causing many sleepless nights in Munich. There IS one way you could keep me from buying BMWs... Let the UAW start building them...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
The General Managers of Buick, Cadillac, Lincoln, and Mercury have formed a barbershop quartet- and they are going to serenade the Senate chamber with the following song:
Four-foot-two, Hair of blue, Born in 1932, Has anybody seen our customers?
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
"if GM wants people to move from the Accord/Camry, they should start selling Cadillac quality at Malibu prices. That is a compelling reason to switch over. No customer is going to switch over to a barely comparable product. "
While I do not have exact quality numbers the 2008 JD Power IQS report shows that the Malibu is #1 in its' segment with Galant and Fusion next. The Camry and Accord are somewhere below them but exact scores are unknown since Powers does not give individual model scores to the public.
But as I have said before the difference in IQS is now ~1 problem for the best (lexus) and 1.2 for industry average. Not significant anymore. This is data at 3 months of course.
At 3 years the difference is between 1.2 at the top and 2 at the industry average. Again not much of a difference anymore.
That is not the interior of a Silverado SS which I was commenting. My guess that is an '07 or newer Tahoe/Suburban, which is much better than the previous model.
Yeah, and one day your mighty Toyota and Honda will fall. I just hope I'm alive to see it. It bet it'll be Hyundai-Kia who will knock them in the dirt.
IQS reports or any quality type report doesn't tell the whole story. Just because a vehicle is perfectly reliable, doesn't equal being desirable.
My wife's 07 Grand Prix is perfectly reliable. Nearly 40k trouble free miles. But the car is horrible in every other way. Fit and finish is terrible, panel gaps are noticeably different as you walk around the car. The suspension is overly stiff w/o providing competent handling. It's not comfortable and the rear seat is inhospitable for anyone over 5'9 or so. The only area that I've noticed improvement with this car over previous GM car's we've had/driven is the brakes. GM finally improved brake feel and the brakes feel strong with adequate pedal modulation.
The 3800v6 (sorry 3800 fans) is not powerful or refined, sure it's punchy to about 40mph, but after that it's unimpressive. Thankfully this car has been killed and hopefully the 3800 will RIP soon, but it represents much of what has been wrong with GM.
GM has made huge improvements with the Malibu and CTS and they are very competent cars that don't need any excuses. The trucks are competitive. The large crossovers seem excellent, though GM doesn't have much to compete with a CRV/RAV4/Escape size SUVS.
Where GM really seems to be getting beat is with small cars. Not that I want a compact, but the Cobalt to me just looks like a warmed over Cavalier. It may be a competent car, but its looks are so blah. The G6 never really lived to expectations. The Astra seems good, but it's not fresh enough and probably expensive to import here. I've only seen one on the road and I don't even think I've seen an ad for one.
I passed up on a Suburban/Tahoe for 2 reasons, no 6 speed trans and no fold flat rear seat. I got both of those with the Expedition and I wasn't impressed enough with a Denali to pay that much of a premium for the extra power and 6speed . Plus the Expedition has a higher tow rating than any 1/2 ton GM SUV which I wanted. That, and I was able to get it for less money than a comparably equipped Tahoe. I tried a 3/4 ton Yukon XL but man that was horrible in terms of ride and handling. The 6L/4speed combo didn't feel strong either. I know the 6speed is available in the Suburban/Tahoe 1/2 tons for 09, but I wanted used.
I've driven the new Tahoe and Expedition. They are very nice vehicles, but I have no desire to own one. If I needed to tow a BMW CCA Club Racing car they would be at the top of my list. I wonder when the Cadillac owners will start their racing series...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
My experience with my last GMC PU was mixed. The interior comfort, climate control and electronics was very good. The exterior fit and finish left much to be desired. That was a 2005. The 2007 was noisier and tinnier than my 2005. GMC lost their way with the current line of PU trucks. The last solid PU trucks from GM were built in the 1990s. I do not blame the UAW for building what GM gives them. Just lost me as a customer as I want a solid truck. I will buy used trucks from the 1990s. Saves me money and serves my needs.
Yeah, and one day your mighty Toyota and Honda will fall. I just hope I'm alive to see it. It bet it'll be Hyundai-Kia who will knock them in the dirt.
This is a concern of the Japanese. For years the outsourced to Korea and now its coming back to haunt them. Most experts predict that Toyota will at best serve a niche market as Apple computers do today. The Korean auto companies will have to worry about China who has stated that they plan to bypass the break in years that both Koreans and Japan experienced. They have many of the worlds large manufacturers advising and transferring engineering/technical know how. Unfortunately all the manufacturers are locked out of the market in China and all the while enjoy the markets of other nations. Another free/fair trade overlooked by these pro-globalization experts. If things continue in this manner, it stands to reason that China will have the lions share of the auto industry. This is just stating the obvious.
>"The asians have received huge tax breaks for building their new plants here in the U.S. because it's cheaper to build the cars here using non-union labor in the south where the cost of living is cheaper"
In last nights Senate/B3 hearings, they referred to Honda of Indiana. I don't believe many would consider Indiana to be in the "South" !
dallasdude: The Beamer 300 series is no where near the CTS and Benz needs to go up a few notches to compete with the CTS.
Apparently independent reviewers and paying customers haven't gotten that memo.
dallasdude: The CTS-V will sport Riccaro seats and will be powered by a V8. Have you ever priced the high end Beamer tires? I saw them after 70,000 miles on a friends car (great wear and grip), wrote down the brand/model, went to the tire store, was quoted $500 a piece.
I seriously doubt that the CTS-V will sport tires that you can buy at Costco or Sam's Club.
dallasdude: Unless your looking to spend $70,000, your just getting a low end model. They entered this market right after Infinity, Lexus, and Acura invaded their traditional high end market. Otherwise, BMW and Benz wouldn't have bothered.
BMW and Mercedes pioneered this market. The 3-Series has been around since the 1970s, and the 190 series, predecessor to the C-Class, debuted in the early 1980s in Europe, and soon after in the U.S. This was before the introduction of Acura, Infiniti and Lexus, which debuted in the late 1980s and early 1990s.
The 3-Series and C-Class cars were around before the creation of Acura, Infiniti and Lexus.
Cadillac has been trying to enter the younger buyer market and shed the image of older consumers. I think the CTS will accomplish this. More performance, creature comforts, and options.
The CTS is one car, and while a good one, hasn't really changed Cadillac's image all that much. The Escalade made more of an impact, but with the market turning against large SUVs, betting on the Escalade to turn around Cadillac's image is a shaky proposition at best. If anything, the Escalade seems like the spiritual descendant of those big, flashy Cadillacs that came to an end in 1976-79.
The STS, XLR and SRX are all flops. The DTS appeals to the more traditional Cadillac customer.
Cadillac doesn't have much of an image...it isn't known for any one attribute or quality. Buyers who remember the marque's heyday in the 1950s and 1960s as a builder of luxury land yachts buy the DTS. The Escalade appeals to the "bling" crowd. But the other cars really haven't carved out a unique image for Cadillac. The new models haven't left a huge impression on the market one way or another.
Yeah, I dig those commercials too. Nice looking car, but I don't think it has enough meat for the money. Ford has been lacking in the engine department for a while now. I hope the upcoming Ecoboost engines will give them the ehh, "boost" they need to meet or beat the competition. The MKS definitely has good looks and a real nice looking interior.
At first glance they seem impressive. THX on the sound system is awesome. However, I turned off by the faux looking aluminum dash. Then there is the fact that its a front wheel drive, unless AWD is opted for. Its competition, the CTS is a better choice in the long run.
The CTS is a hot seller and you really need to exclude the unwanted opitions. I found one with the navigation, Bose, and sports package. No sun roof and the many other opitions, which are not standard equiptment. I did get the windows tinted and got out for $23,000 plus TT&L. I plan to upgrade the wheels, which would make it look like an entirely different car.
Yeah, and one day your mighty Toyota and Honda will fall. I just hope I'm alive to see it. It bet it'll be Hyundai-Kia who will knock them in the dirt.
That's fine with me.
Although Honda & I go back many years - I bought a Civic in '74 - it won't bother me a bit if the Korean brands come out on top some day. As a hard-core capitalist, I believe that a company deserves to prosper only as long as it gives its customers the products they want at prices they're willing to pay.
My mother-in-law is thinking of replacing her 9-year-old Camry. I've suggested that she take a close look at the Hyundai Sonata.
You can save 70% off the price of a Tahoe if you buy a year or 2 old model. These are great vehicles, but a 2007 Tahoe LT 4WD is worth only about $12,000 max.
Sorry, but if the Big 3 die as we know them it will be GREAT for the country in the long run.
I would be interested in what line of work you do !!! I guess you would be willing to sacrifice your standard of living and members of your family I take it ??? Might have to move a in-law or two in with you since you will be the only person with a job if the collapse won't really affect you !!!
As a hard-core capitalist, I believe that a company deserves to prosper only as long as it gives its customers the products they want at prices they're willing to pay.
I agree, the UAW was all for capitalism when they were negotiating big buck contracts. Then when the company fails they want socialism to bail them out.
I agree, the UAW was all for capitalism when they were negotiating big buck contracts. Then when the company fails they want socialism to bail them out.
They are for fair capitalism and always have been !!! The UAW, has never supported globalism which your pseudo-capitalist's eutopia !!!
If the market is really free I ask you gagrice, to go buy a Harley Davidson, in Japan and tell me what the price tags on the exact same model that is sold here and the one sold in Japan !!!
Might have to move a in-law or two in with you since you will be the only person with a job if the collapse won't really affect you !
Already have in-laws living in our home that cannot be sold due to the mess the Dems have made with their sub prime debacle. GM going broke will make VERY LITTLE DIFFERENCE. They are a non player in the auto market. If not for rentals and PU trucks they would already have died. Ford can handle the buyers that would have bought a GM PU or SUV. Ford will survive without GM very well. They may even keep a few token UAW workers.
Ford, is in worse shape than GM, because they already sold some of their European brands and are looking to sell Mazda, I read !!! You think they won't follow or go before GM, belly up ???? Did you not watch the testimony ???? Chrysler, has the most cash on hand to survive at the momment from what I read........... :confuse:
gagrice, with all do respect I want to fix the problem to save american manufacturing and plain jobs like your friends in general by making corrections to policy using our government and it appears you want to let the free-market work and decide who lives and who dies.........Right ?
Ford has the means to last through most of next year, GM will be lucky to make it to the Obama administration. IMO, Ford has a higher chance of surviving. At this point, I don't see GM being around this time next year.
Right. I'll take Lemmy on in an E92 M3 any day. Have you even sat in a BMW?
Driven a few and all they can do is handle really well !!! I think the new designs are ugly as well as the interior designs !!! Bangle, destroyed these handsome cars !!!
Sure the CTS-V is a nice car, but it will be an orphan soon, along with the rest of the GM model line. Thank goodness all of my fleet is German- or will be soon. Well, the Jeep can stay, as it's part German- having been built by Daimler Chrysler. And anyway, I've fitted German shocks, headlamps, and speakers...
Well you better maintain those German, cars because if our economy collapses the Germans, might make Bimmer's in Bangledesh to compete with Geely, Brickland, Chery....... :sick:
Where did this money come from ??? I've always read they were the worse of the Big 3 and spent the money from the sale of their assets on R&D..... :confuse:
Well union workers in Germany, are building them and they get to drink beer while doing it !!! You rail on UAW, workers only because our media is anti-union...The unions in Europe, fight for better wages, benefits, but because it's not front page news you overlook it !!!
Go buy a Saab, it's not made by the UAW, nor is a Saturn Astra, Aveo !!!
rockylee: Ford, is in worse shape than GM, because they already sold some of their European brands and are looking to sell Mazda, I read !!! You think they won't follow or go before GM, belly up ???? Did you not watch the testimony ????
Ford sold Land Rover, Jaguar and Aston Martin to raise some cash, eliminate potential cash drains, and focus the company on the core Ford and Lincoln brands.
It sold a portion of its share in Mazda to raise some more cash, but will retain a stake in the company and continue to work with Mazda on various projects.
Ford is in a better cash position than GM because it borrowed money last year in case the scenario that is now unfolding did, indeed, happen. That's called proper planning, with a dash of luck.
GM did not, and now finds itself locked out of the credit market, because no financial institution that can read a balance sheet is insane enough to lend GM money at reasonable interest rates.
Plus, Ford has continued to spend money to bring new products - new Fiesta, completely revamped Focus, restyled Taurus, the Explorer replacement - to market within the next 18-24 months, while GM has halted or delayed many new products. Ford is burning through cash, too, but part of the burn is being fueled by the drive to bring new product to market.
rockylee: Chrysler, has the most cash on hand to survive at the momment from what I read...........
Chrysler has the most cash on hand because Cerberus basically halted new vehicle development. It is hoarding money, but with each passing year, its products become more uncompetitive, and it becomes harder to catch the competition, especially since new products are not under development.
Ford set up their big loan earlier and pledged a lot more collateral against it, so they got fairly decent terms, versus the payday-loan-shark junk that GM has been propping itself up with. Ford also shoveled that money into pulling ahead its future models, while GM has all but shuttered it's R&D just to keep the lights on for one more week.
Comments
Are the Tundra and Titan small trucks? Toyota spent millions on a plant here in San Antonio, Texas to build Tundras and to be near the pick-up market. Their first Tundra was nothing but a cheap car (small truck parts) on a pick - up body. They beefed it up just to compete and got them a truck wheel base. Just go out and test drive the Silverado SS with 4 wheel drive and you will see that GM is light years ahead of the imports. This is Texas and pick-ups are just about every other ride here. There is a market for pick-ups and if your willing to fork over some serious cash, GM is the best. Unfortunately you seem to think that everyone wants an econ-box like yourself. Most folks tend to think that everyone has the same tastes and desires. Add to that the fact they don't test drive/research all thats out there and we have a typical consumer.
The Beamer 300 series is no where near the CTS and Benz needs to go up a few notches to compete with the CTS. The CTS-V will sport Riccaro seats and will be powered by a V8. Have you ever priced the high end Beamer tires? I saw them after 70,000 miles on a friends car (great wear and grip), wrote down the brand/model, went to the tire store, was quoted $500 a piece. Unless your looking to spend $70,000, your just getting a low end model. They entered this market right after Infinity, Lexus, and Acura invaded their traditional high end market. Otherwise, BMW and Benz wouldn't have bothered. Cadillac has been trying to enter the younger buyer market and shed the image of older consumers. I think the CTS will accomplish this. More performance, creature comforts, and options.
Your kidding right? There is a reason why GM no longer sells the Silverado SS, IT WAS A JOKE. The only thing the SS had going for it was AWD and an extend cab. An F150 Lightning or SRT-10 would eat it's lunch. But the market for overpriced sport trucks is long gone.
From Edmunds. "This was enough to give the pickup truck a 0-60-mph time of 6.3 seconds. Though respectable, it was well off the pace set by the Lightning and Ram SRT-10. Needless to say, we weren't terribly impressed with the Chevrolet Silverado SS. It was too expensive, fell short of its performance truck competition and wasn't that much of an upgrade over regular Silverados."
I've done the 1/2 ton Chevy thing. No thanks, they're junk. I'm trying my best to stay domestic. Dumped my POS Mexican built Suburban and trying a go around with an Expedition (at least it's made in the USA). Just wish I could swap out Ford's 5.4 for a Nissan 5.6 or Toyota 5.7, better yet a diesel. Though the 5.4 has lots more towing power than what I experienced with GMs 5.3 which is a good engine until you ask it to tow 6,000lbs. then it's a dog.
I did get a kick out of the bed bounce videos on youtube. The Tundra looks like it has spaghetti noodles for the frame rails.
$40k for that hideous dash is shameful.
Why do you assume that the UAW operates the Big Three's business? Last I heard they have executives and a board of directors, much like the Wall Street firms. Which incidentally were bailed out. We never assumed that the employees at Bear Sterns, AIG, or any of the many others were responsible for management. This reeks of a political agenda. That being that the GOP gets their buddies bailed out on Wall Street and since the UAW is involved in the manufacture of the Big Three products, they should bear responsibility for mis management. Bombard us with logic and quit the socialism red herring, which has already been extended to the ill fated banking/insurance industries ten fold. The American public might have forgotten the socialism extended to Wall Street if it was a long time ago. However, its fresh in their minds and an insult to anyone making a socialism case. Please make a case in which the banking system/Wall Street merited this so called socialism if your argument is to hold water.
Yeah, I dig those commercials too. Nice looking car, but I don't think it has enough meat for the money. Ford has been lacking in the engine department for a while now. I hope the upcoming Ecoboost engines will give them the ehh, "boost" they need to meet or beat the competition. The MKS definitely has good looks and a real nice looking interior.
Why are you comparing a motorcycle to a car? As any BMW aficionado can tell you, "Beamer" refers to the BMW motorcycle while "Bimmer" denotes the BMW automobile.
Are you trying to say that the Cadillac CTS sedan is superior to the BMW motorcycle because it has 2 more wheels?
"I already estimated that to pay off 2 million workers that all the experts way will be lost $100,000 each so they can get new jobs would cost $200B.
Assuming not all of those jobs would be lost in a reorganization hosted by new investors for one new auto company, all we need do is count back from there. "
So why exactly is spending $50 billion not better than spending $200 billion. Assuming new investors in one company in this climate might be a stretch.
In your basic premise I am comfortable. One must go. So screw american investors or screw a hedge fund. I vote hedge fund. Now the cost of a protracted severe recession lasting multi years versus a shorter one due to loss of consumer confidence is a different matter. The 700b that might have cost a fraction of that should not have some in the house opt for their Newt Gingrich moment ,rather than actual economics is starting to look really cheap. S'ok Please ban morons from the Republican party. They cause me too much shame. Btw, it never worked for Newt. Assuming your constituency is too stupid to grasp the big picture shows their arrogance.
Lawyers deciding econonomic matters. GHU.
(help)
Your UAW arrogance is showing. How about my mechanic friend that lost his job at the local Ford Agency? Why is someone in a Detroit factory anymore important than he is? He was one of millions of Americans that do not have the plush UAW contract that pays them full pay for doing NOTHING. Maybe that perk is gone and it should be as we are now seeing the results of years of wasteful spending by GM and Ford. The sooner the dead weight in the Auto industry is buried, the sooner the rebuilding can begin. I personally believe we are seeing the same kind of lies of doom and gloom that the media has been spreading this whole year. I can tell you the devastation in CA over the housing bubble is much worse than a few hundred thousand UAW workers losing their jobs. You are too emotional because of your closeness to ground zero. Michigan will never be the same. Just as anyplace that loses their source of income.
Think of it like a town losing a military base. You can go in and offer new businesses an opportunity to start over. Maybe your dream of alternative energy will flourish in Michigan. I can tell you it will not survive or flourish under the weight of the UAW mentality. NO ONE IS ENTITLED TO A HIGH PAYING JOB. No worse than my 56 year old Ford mechanic friend that is totally distraught. 10 million out of work in the USA. Many just as deserving as any UAW worker.
Even if the worst case comes true and all the Big 3 go belly up. Those 3 million total jobs lost will not equal the unemployment caused by Jimmy Carter in the late 1970s. GM is nothing special anymore. It is just another company poorly run that their time is up. You only wish that GM ever built cars that compared to Packard. Only in your dreams.
Now it is Packard's turn to laugh in his grave. Nothing is forever.
And no, I know not everyone feels the way I do. I understand that for a lot of people pickup trucks make sense. And I haven't spent the time researching pickups, because I don't need one, nor do I want one. I would look in to them if I did and it would be a Ford or a Chevy for me, I honestly don't know which one I'd pick.
But it's wrong for you to [non-permissible content removed]ume that I don't research my vehicle before I buy one, because I spend literally hundreds of hours doing that before I lay down change for a new car. And it's got to be a new car for me. I don't like used rigs, just won't head that direction.
I do think it's better for us as an operating, interconnected, functioning huge group of people to have GM, Ford and umm...I really don't know about Chrysler. I don't think their business plan includes success in America, but if Congress OK's it for GM and Ford they'll include it for Chrysler, too.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Yes, I'm sure the Cadillac Juggernaut is causing many sleepless nights in Munich. There IS one way you could keep me from buying BMWs...
Let the UAW start building them...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Four-foot-two,
Hair of blue,
Born in 1932,
Has anybody seen our customers?
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
No customer is going to switch over to a barely comparable product. "
While I do not have exact quality numbers the 2008 JD Power IQS report shows that the Malibu is #1 in its' segment with Galant and Fusion next. The Camry and Accord are somewhere below them but exact scores are unknown since Powers does not give individual model scores to the public.
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2008063
But as I have said before the difference in IQS is now ~1 problem for the best (lexus) and 1.2 for industry average. Not significant anymore. This is data at 3 months of course.
At 3 years the difference is between 1.2 at the top and 2 at the industry average. Again not much of a difference anymore.
Here's the current one:
My wife's 07 Grand Prix is perfectly reliable. Nearly 40k trouble free miles. But the car is horrible in every other way. Fit and finish is terrible, panel gaps are noticeably different as you walk around the car. The suspension is overly stiff w/o providing competent handling. It's not comfortable and the rear seat is inhospitable for anyone over 5'9 or so. The only area that I've noticed improvement with this car over previous GM car's we've had/driven is the brakes. GM finally improved brake feel and the brakes feel strong with adequate pedal modulation.
The 3800v6 (sorry 3800 fans) is not powerful or refined, sure it's punchy to about 40mph, but after that it's unimpressive. Thankfully this car has been killed and hopefully the 3800 will RIP soon, but it represents much of what has been wrong with GM.
GM has made huge improvements with the Malibu and CTS and they are very competent cars that don't need any excuses. The trucks are competitive. The large crossovers seem excellent, though GM doesn't have much to compete with a CRV/RAV4/Escape size SUVS.
Where GM really seems to be getting beat is with small cars. Not that I want a compact, but the Cobalt to me just looks like a warmed over Cavalier. It may be a competent car, but its looks are so blah. The G6 never really lived to expectations. The Astra seems good, but it's not fresh enough and probably expensive to import here. I've only seen one on the road and I don't even think I've seen an ad for one.
I passed up on a Suburban/Tahoe for 2 reasons, no 6 speed trans and no fold flat rear seat. I got both of those with the Expedition and I wasn't impressed enough with a Denali to pay that much of a premium for the extra power and 6speed . Plus the Expedition has a higher tow rating than any 1/2 ton GM SUV which I wanted. That, and I was able to get it for less money than a comparably equipped Tahoe. I tried a 3/4 ton Yukon XL but man that was horrible in terms of ride and handling. The 6L/4speed combo didn't feel strong either. I know the 6speed is available in the Suburban/Tahoe 1/2 tons for 09, but I wanted used.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
This is a concern of the Japanese. For years the outsourced to Korea and now its coming back to haunt them. Most experts predict that Toyota will at best serve a niche market as Apple computers do today. The Korean auto companies will have to worry about China who has stated that they plan to bypass the break in years that both Koreans and Japan experienced. They have many of the worlds large manufacturers advising and transferring engineering/technical know how. Unfortunately all the manufacturers are locked out of the market in China and all the while enjoy the markets of other nations. Another free/fair trade overlooked by these pro-globalization experts. If things continue in this manner, it stands to reason that China will have the lions share of the auto industry. This is just stating the obvious.
In last nights Senate/B3 hearings, they referred to Honda of Indiana.
I don't believe many would consider Indiana to be in the "South" !
Kip
Major Shift in Trade Policy
Apparently independent reviewers and paying customers haven't gotten that memo.
dallasdude: The CTS-V will sport Riccaro seats and will be powered by a V8. Have you ever priced the high end Beamer tires? I saw them after 70,000 miles on a friends car (great wear and grip), wrote down the brand/model, went to the tire store, was quoted $500 a piece.
I seriously doubt that the CTS-V will sport tires that you can buy at Costco or Sam's Club.
dallasdude: Unless your looking to spend $70,000, your just getting a low end model. They entered this market right after Infinity, Lexus, and Acura invaded their traditional high end market. Otherwise, BMW and Benz wouldn't have bothered.
BMW and Mercedes pioneered this market. The 3-Series has been around since the 1970s, and the 190 series, predecessor to the C-Class, debuted in the early 1980s in Europe, and soon after in the U.S. This was before the introduction of Acura, Infiniti and Lexus, which debuted in the late 1980s and early 1990s.
The 3-Series and C-Class cars were around before the creation of Acura, Infiniti and Lexus.
Cadillac has been trying to enter the younger buyer market and shed the image of older consumers. I think the CTS will accomplish this. More performance, creature comforts, and options.
The CTS is one car, and while a good one, hasn't really changed Cadillac's image all that much. The Escalade made more of an impact, but with the market turning against large SUVs, betting on the Escalade to turn around Cadillac's image is a shaky proposition at best. If anything, the Escalade seems like the spiritual descendant of those big, flashy Cadillacs that came to an end in 1976-79.
The STS, XLR and SRX are all flops. The DTS appeals to the more traditional Cadillac customer.
Cadillac doesn't have much of an image...it isn't known for any one attribute or quality. Buyers who remember the marque's heyday in the 1950s and 1960s as a builder of luxury land yachts buy the DTS. The Escalade appeals to the "bling" crowd. But the other cars really haven't carved out a unique image for Cadillac. The new models haven't left a huge impression on the market one way or another.
At first glance they seem impressive. THX on the sound system is awesome. However, I turned off by the faux looking aluminum dash. Then there is the fact that its a front wheel drive, unless AWD is opted for. Its competition, the CTS is a better choice in the long run.
The CTS is a hot seller and you really need to exclude the unwanted opitions. I found one with the navigation, Bose, and sports package. No sun roof and the many other opitions, which are not standard equiptment. I did get the windows tinted and got out for $23,000 plus TT&L. I plan to upgrade the wheels, which would make it look like an entirely different car.
That's fine with me.
Although Honda & I go back many years - I bought a Civic in '74 - it won't bother me a bit if the Korean brands come out on top some day. As a hard-core capitalist, I believe that a company deserves to prosper only as long as it gives its customers the products they want at prices they're willing to pay.
My mother-in-law is thinking of replacing her 9-year-old Camry. I've suggested that she take a close look at the Hyundai Sonata.
Obviously the automobile industry depends on the economy and flipping it around will take 3-5 years or more !!!
-Rocky
I would be interested in what line of work you do !!! I guess you would be willing to sacrifice your standard of living and members of your family I take it ??? Might have to move a in-law or two in with you since you will be the only person with a job if the collapse won't really affect you !!!
-Rocky
I agree, the UAW was all for capitalism when they were negotiating big buck contracts. Then when the company fails they want socialism to bail them out.
-Rocky
They are for fair capitalism and always have been !!! The UAW, has never supported globalism which your pseudo-capitalist's eutopia !!!
If the market is really free I ask you gagrice, to go buy a Harley Davidson, in Japan and tell me what the price tags on the exact same model that is sold here and the one sold in Japan !!!
-Rocky
Already have in-laws living in our home that cannot be sold due to the mess the Dems have made with their sub prime debacle. GM going broke will make VERY LITTLE DIFFERENCE. They are a non player in the auto market. If not for rentals and PU trucks they would already have died. Ford can handle the buyers that would have bought a GM PU or SUV. Ford will survive without GM very well. They may even keep a few token UAW workers.
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
Driven a few and all they can do is handle really well !!! I think the new designs are ugly as well as the interior designs !!! Bangle, destroyed these handsome cars !!!
Sure the CTS-V is a nice car, but it will be an orphan soon, along with the rest of the GM model line. Thank goodness all of my fleet is German- or will be soon. Well, the Jeep can stay, as it's part German- having been built by Daimler Chrysler. And anyway, I've fitted German shocks, headlamps, and speakers...
Well you better maintain those German, cars because if our economy collapses the Germans, might make Bimmer's in Bangledesh to compete with Geely, Brickland, Chery....... :sick:
-Rocky
Where did this money come from ??? I've always read they were the worse of the Big 3 and spent the money from the sale of their assets on R&D..... :confuse:
-Rocky
Successful businesses improve the product to give potential customers what they want, instead of stoning the messenger.
Go buy a Saab, it's not made by the UAW, nor is a Saturn Astra, Aveo !!!
-Rocky
-Rocky
Ford sold Land Rover, Jaguar and Aston Martin to raise some cash, eliminate potential cash drains, and focus the company on the core Ford and Lincoln brands.
It sold a portion of its share in Mazda to raise some more cash, but will retain a stake in the company and continue to work with Mazda on various projects.
Ford is in a better cash position than GM because it borrowed money last year in case the scenario that is now unfolding did, indeed, happen. That's called proper planning, with a dash of luck.
GM did not, and now finds itself locked out of the credit market, because no financial institution that can read a balance sheet is insane enough to lend GM money at reasonable interest rates.
Plus, Ford has continued to spend money to bring new products - new Fiesta, completely revamped Focus, restyled Taurus, the Explorer replacement - to market within the next 18-24 months, while GM has halted or delayed many new products. Ford is burning through cash, too, but part of the burn is being fueled by the drive to bring new product to market.
rockylee: Chrysler, has the most cash on hand to survive at the momment from what I read...........
Chrysler has the most cash on hand because Cerberus basically halted new vehicle development. It is hoarding money, but with each passing year, its products become more uncompetitive, and it becomes harder to catch the competition, especially since new products are not under development.
-Rocky
-Rocky