accountants working for GM would have with Chapter 11 and liquidation. I mean, what a nightmare of a job, writing up honest loose tether contracts that would exptrapolate liquidation at a certain timeframe. Almost like the interest-added during time(I forgot the term for it)that you get for car purchase contracts, only unwinding it in reverse.
rockylee...man, I just don't see a way out of this for the UAW and GM. Do you?
The American public has voted with their pocketbooks.
>"That cooler is to keep his beer cool. He thinks he works in a German auto factory."
Looks more American to me. Could be headed into the GM plant to complain how his isn't willing to take a dime less to keep his company afloat. The Beer helps him rationalize his decisions.
It's not like we've seen automobile, clothing, food, healthcare, cost become cheaper in the "free-market"
Healthcare is certainly out of control, but I wouldn't say health care is a total free market either. But cars, clothes, electronics, and many other items have benefited by free market principles
A low end IBM PC in the early 80's was easily $4,000. A 35" Mitsubishi 35" tube TV in 1985 was $3,000. A vhs video recorder the size of a suit case used to cost well over $1,000 in the early 80's. Cheap clothes are offered everywhere. Sure you can spend $300 on a pair of jeans or $150 on shoes, but cheap alternatives exist at most retailers. Cars are hard to compare when you consider what you get for $ compared to say 25 years ago in terms of amenities and reliability, but overall cars have stayed in line with overall inflation.
Food prices are largely dependent on energy costs and other commodities etc, and have increased at a higher rate than many other items.
Without foreign competition, we'd probably be paying $45k for an Impala so GM could continue to afford expensive UAW contracts. But I guess that's is music to some people's ears.
>"Well those UAW, retiree members might as well ask teachers to give up their health and retiree benefits also to share in the sacrifice. Hell everyone needs to have their pension, healthcare, 401K benefits cut so we can help "every company" not have to borrow money to provide their goods or services at a reduced rate "
That is typical socialist thinking. "SPREAD THE WEALTH" Take from everyone to support you local UAW. Right from the OBAMA play book. Yeah...Right ! :sick: :lemon:
Why should my or anyone elses income be cut that doesn't work for "CRASHING" companies? Nope, I'm not willing to give one red cent to UAW, or any of the Big 3 that have squandered money and produced products that are not selling.
There are companies that are doing whatever is necessary to keep the dead wood trimmed so the company and productive employees can survive.
UAW members don't seem to realize that they may have a hard time finding a job at any other manufacturing facility, when the human resources see the (unwritten) UAW on the resume. Sure as hell won't find a job paying the same as the company they helped to close down, unless they are shot full of luck
Thanks, fezo, I got a really good laugh out of that! Looks like Johnny had fun making that video. I always had a picture in my mind of what that car would look like (never saw the video until now), and never thought it would be a landau! Thanks again. Still smiling here.
Sure you can spend $300 on a pair of jeans or $150 on shoes, but cheap alternatives exist at most retailers.
I remember back in the 70's and early 80's, my Mom usually bought me cheap shoes. Either NBA from Kinney Shoes, or some Thom McCahns or something like that. They usually came to about $20. Adjusted for inflation, $20 in 1980 is about $58 today. Yet today, you could get a halfway decent pair of shoes for about $50-60. Obviously not some top-of-the-line blingy thing, but it's not something the other kids will make fun of, either.
Yet today, if you still want cheap shoes, go to WalMart, K-Mart, or Payless, and you'll still pay about twenty bucks for them.
the term finally came to me: amortization schedule. Can you imagine the fun that accountants will have reversing the amortization schedules, and cutting off accounts in mid-stream? And figuring out just how to save the General when divvying up assets, liabilities and accounts payable, etc. What a nightmare in the making. I suppose de-amortization is nothing to a CPA with several degrees and also several years of experience. Since GM doesn't seem to mind living high off someone's hog anyway it's probably not their thing to worry about. And to me that's part of the problem with them: accountability.
Without foreign competition, we'd probably be paying $45k for an Impala so GM could continue to afford expensive UAW contracts.
And we would be driving 2009 versions of Granadas, Tempos, X-cars, Cavaliers, Mustang II's, etc. Buyers of the better American branded models today do not realize how thankful they should be that companies such as Honda and Toyota forced the Big 3 to improve their products.
UAW workers not responsible for decline of American brands. That rests entirely with high management.
liar loans 434k fat cat weekend for golf after bailout received (good use of bailout money) 250 million tax abatement to Honda to put plant in Indiana (We are bailing out Japan) 700B bailout to AIG, Fannie, Freddie retiring after 30 years to immediate pension and medical care universal health care (bail out the non-working) bailout loan to Big3 UAW workers take pay cut to $18 an hour anyone who owes more than their house is worth has debt released down to 90% of value of house, especially if they took out a 2nd mortgage, and especially if they spent the 2nd mortgage on a Lexus SUV.
Unrelated: The real world pays about $450 a month to buy my medical, dental, and life insurance from their employer in 2009. A little taste of reality outside the UAW.
When Delphi went into bankruptcy, the judge refused to do anything to the UAW. All he said was you 2 work it out. Nothing ever came of it. Where does the UAW get any motivation to make concessions?
The average American would rather buy a Japanese car and then pay taxes for unemployment and health care for ex us auto workers and the 1.5x effect beyond the auto industry.
US senators have finally came out and actually said that buying an american car makes the buyer look unintelligent. If I were a japanese auto executive, that would be on my 'dream list' of things to happen in america.
the impetus is really on them(GM) and Congress should not have to be even considering this. All those flippin' years of building large pick-em-up trucks and huge soccer Mom SUV's and ignoring the car market has come back around on them. As well as giving in to the UAW for decades. Now it's a huge mess and Johnny and JoAnne taxpayer are being called upon to bail the water out of the Titanic.
BTW-I don't recall Captain Smith giving out the command to farepayers on the Titanic "Everyone man their bailout stations and help us get all of this nasty water out of this beautiful new White Star liner!"
He did say that the ship was inevitably going to sink and something to the effect that this is going to be nasty for everyone concerned. He may have uttered a bumbly "God help us all", remember that from the movie? Anyone watched it lately?
Remember this statement: "There's no worries, M'am...I've just ordered the boiler room to light an additional two boilers. We're speeding up!"
Remind anyone of some huge corporation just a little bit? We're going to continue to ignore customer complaints and just hurry up and build more Tonka trucks for all of the Toby Keith's out there in America! And there are a lot of Toby Keiths out there, I seem to move to places where people just love GMC/Chevy/Ford/Dodge trucks.
I would say the best bet for someone in the UAW is get a Federal job. There is the kind of security you won't have with the Automakers ever again.
In wooing federal employee votes on the eve of the election, Barack Obama wrote a series of letters to workers that offer detailed descriptions of how he intends to add muscle to specific government programs, give new power to bureaucrats and roll back some Bush administration policies.
The letters, sent to employees at seven agencies, describe Obama's intention to scale back on contracts to private firms doing government work.
"I asked him to put it in writing, something I could use with my members, and he didn't flinch," said John Gage, president of the 600,000-member American Federation of Government Employees, who requested that Obama write the letters, which were distributed through the union. "The fact that he's willing to put his name to it is a good sign."
>UAW workers not responsible for decline of American brands. That rests entirely with high management.
Eh? No.
UAW asked for excesses. Management provided them with such. Both should take the fall.
I repeat again. Government should mandate minimum wage to all employees, no bonuses, and bail them out. If any employee thinks he can do better somewhere else, let him test his skills out. My guess is that most employess will stay put because they will be good for nothing by now, having worked for so long under the "UAW" protection, and taking their jobs for granted. The US is a capitalistic market.
Meh, drugs get stale and so do canned goods. And you can't eat gold (well, you can eat gold leaf but it's not very filling). And have you priced ammo lately? I love the pay off the debt and save money one, and at the end he says to max out the credit cards. :shades:
The U.S. Senate Banking Committee will hear testimony Tuesday from executives of Detroit's Big Three auto makers and the head of the United Auto Workers Union. Gonna be a busy week for the bigwigs.
be thankful that the american auto industry put out better products as it went into bankruptcy?
all are responsible. UAW had great impact to cost and build quality. salary designed and developed. mgmt decided what plan was. Keep forgetting that plan calls for pensions, 100% medical, 100% dental, and was based on continued growth. UAW is forcing bankruptcy or status quo.
[non-permissible content removed] brands do NOTHING for America. Never have, never will.
".....The retirees need to take a cut in their lush pay checks and health care plans to help the company they bled for so many years. While other companies have cut retiree healthcare and checks, UAW has kept theirs high."
What companies have CUT retiree healthcare and checks????? Bethlehem Steel??? Kaiser Aluminum?? US Air??? Polaroid or Kemper insurance???
Sorry Charlie, but they ALL get their pension monies from YOU AND ME, courtesy of the PBGC. If the Big 3 go belly up, guess who pays the retirees?? Yep, YOU AND ME!!!! And there is no renegging on that, because PBGC is an INSURANCE POLICY, and it will HAVE to be PAID OUT
Like the old Fram commercial: Pay a "little" now, or pay a LOT later.
But that insurance policy doesn't pay out 100% of what you would have gotten. It's a reduced pension.
Still, it is a matter of what we will pay when - not an if in any sense of the word.
I will say that if they did reduce the pensions I would have no faith in anything that's written down as to "from now on we'll do this." If they reneg on the current pensioners they'll reneg on future ones down the road.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
For decades now the Japanese have been protecting their farm industry. Consumers there have paid an outrageous price for a steak. I see them eating even the fat in such places as the Grand Canyon, Disney World, and other tourist traps. Their govt has placed high tariffs on beef to protect their farmers/ranchers.
However, we have allowed them entry to our markets. The auto market has been one. No barriers, tariffs, or hurdles to get in. The UAW has attained a high standard of living for folks who toil in many of these auto plants. Honest work for honest wages.Including the Toyota Corolla (UAW represented) plant in California. Many folks envy the compensation/benefit package. Instead of trying to get themselves the same or better, they want others to suffer with inferior compensation/benefit packages. Thats just plain envy. I say that they need to expend their efforts in organizing.
Who says socialism is dead in the USA. Everybody wants socialism, but don't want to be called out as such.
If UAW workers are in a tight place, why should the regular public funds help them out? Isn't that socialism of the highest degree? or are we obligated to do so because they deserve it?? If they can afford their full blown salary and health benefits on their own, nobody complained. Did they? Now that they cannot do so, why does GM want public funds to do just that??
I think you guys are taking what I said and spinning it. I thought this was the no spin zone but apparently I didn't get the memo ??? :P
The bottom line is if we don't bailout the Big 3 it will make the collapse of Wallstreet look like a ripple in the water in comparison !!! I think many folks don't realize just how much of a consquence the Big 3 going out of business will have on this economy. It would make the 1929' depression look like everyone is working !!! Thousands of small and large businesses will collapse and millions of folks will be unemployed. I think the american worker and the corporations who've tried to stay here in the U.S. have gotten a screw job for the last 20 or 30 years by our government and its free trade for one side policies !!! :mad:
Go ahead and tell your congressman "NO" on the bailout but when desperate people take up robbery and other criminal behavior to put food on the table then don't come on here and whine because I will say told you so !!!! :mad: I have made it clear and have no doubt by looking at other economies as examples that I'm right on this subject !!! Some of the most powerful economies have protectionist clauses in their trade policies to protect their standard of living at home from cheap foreign labor. Even Lou Dobbs, says if you want to avoid another great depression the bailout is neccessary. Just cutting the pay on Union people will not solve the problem because the bottom line is if they have no extra money to spend those businesses they patron will collapse anyways.
ILUV, it is critical to have a class of people with disposable income pal. My father has a modest pension nothing like gagrice, gets or wages gagrice, made but he does have health benefits and does have to pay a portion of it out of his pocket. It's going to come to the point of asking how much do union members needs to sacrifice ??? Their was no 401K available for my father to invest in back in the day and if he did have one well you've seen how well those Vegas, plans have faired here lately !!!! Yes I'm very passionate about this issue as I've seen already just how many jobs in manufacturing have been lost here locally and abroad. Thousands more in furniture sectors i.e. Herman Miller, Haworth, Steelcase, and automobile suppliers like Johnson Controls, Gentex, Donnelly, Delphi, have recently announced another round of lay-offs. Some might be living in area's of comfort and swallowing down their Jelly Bismarks, and Starbucks, but reality for a quarter of the U.S. work force looks very bad and the only solution some say is to cut here and there like that is going to solve the problems ???? I feel many folks are oblivious due to their local surroundings as I've spoken with friends in the Texas, Panhandle who've asked me what in the hell is going on ???? Well when your economy is based on agriculture, oil, government, sectors that currently have seen huge investment increases and rewards due to the Bush administration well it's hard to comprehend what a reccession feels like. I think that is part of the problem because many sectors that don't know what a factory is will not feel the damage until later.... If GM, Ford, Chrysler, aren't bringing in tax revenue for Uncle Sam, those government jobs will be cut as their won't be the money coming in to fund those projects. Once the borrowing from China, to fund the war ends a lot of these government jobs will be slashed !!! If we open up South America, for free-trade you can kiss those Texas farms good-bye because the South Americans, run plantations and the american farmer won't be able to compete with slave labor !!!! :mad:
The above link is reality for people who want to organize in this country. EFCA, will make that right easier and will help overcome employer intimidation !!! I look forward to it's passage !!!! Thank-you, Barack Obama !!!! :shades:
That is very sound advice buddy !!! Seriously, dad and I have joked about living off the land. We talk about having a lake to fish for food and woods to hunt deer and other wildlife to eat !!! We talked about growing vegetables in the yard for consumption as well !!! I like Lenny, want to tend the rabbits and will live off the fat of the land !!! I don't think even John Steinbeck, could imagine that the pseudo-capitalist would destroy our country over greed again !!! :sick:
all right. Here's the deal. I don't like what's going on. Congress will offer a bailout, GM, Ford and Chrysler can't fail. Well, maybe Chrysler-Cerberus will.
But I, if you will recall, have been laid off twice from a company called The Boeing Company. And, I have pulled myself up by my bootstraps and re-trained for a totally different career, the Allied Health field.
So, I had to tie all of the bureacracy and red tape together, study hard, and I mean study hard, and I made it.
I can't help but think internally on this one. I can tell you from personal experience that there is life after a manufacturing job.
rock, tell me the truth here. Do you, in your heart of hearts, think GM can pull out of their large Depression with a, oh, let's say $50 Billion dollar Federal Government bailout?
Or are we just going to be prolonging everyone's misery. I remember 2002 at Boeing, everyone's productivity was being shot to hell because all everyone wanted to do was put down Phil Condit and Harry Stonecipher(two Boeing CEO's of that era). I mean, SPEEA got all the socialist juices going, but they also stirred the pot so that working on real Boeing jet aircraft drawings became a background hobby for us.
I am saying that the healthcare industry is hiring, you've just got to go out and line up some trianing for yourself. It's honest work, though, sure, my college tuition and books were paid for by The Trade Act, but it was done honestly and in view of all authorities.
This GM bailout is starting to smell of lobbyist-disease and pork-barrel large corporate hand-wringing and handouts. It's starting to really smell. I'm saying these people who are UAW can find another way out than working for GM. And why not large numbers of them? Huh?
But that insurance policy doesn't pay out 100% of what you would have gotten. It's a reduced pension.
My sister was a long time UAL employee and she got her full pension in spite of UAL's bankruptcy. I think Kernick pointed out somewhere around here that the PGBC pension amount is based on years of service or some formula like that.
Since the Big 3's workers are generally older than those employed by the foreign car manufacturers in the US, many of their pensions may not be reduced all that much. Either way, the taxpayer is gonna be on the hook big time, since the premiums paid into the PGBC won't be near enough to cover the payments.
I think as I said have made my point very clear as to the domino effect the Big 3 collapse would have including healthcare jobs. The difference iluv, is Boeing didn't go belly up despite you losing your job pal, and it was democrats who pushed to save Boeing, despite people like McCain, who faught giving Boeing's, union folks contracts and gave them to McDonald Douglas, !!! Boeing, like General Motors, is an important industry not for just the jobs it provides but their demise is a national security issue and I have a feeling someday WWIII will break out and it will be companies like the Big 3 and Boeing, who will give us a fighting chance at victory while you work on doing your healthcare deal on us young guys who are doing the fighting !!!!
According to the PBGC, they pay 100% of the first $11 per mo., per yr of service of benefits, then 75% of the rest. So you would receive more than 75% of your pension. I would venture to say if you received $3000/mo., PBGC would pay $24-2600/mo.
Comments
rockylee...man, I just don't see a way out of this for the UAW and GM. Do you?
The American public has voted with their pocketbooks.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
No wonder they are laborers, all brawn and no brains. Sorry for the poor taste, but they deserve it if this is their stance.
Looks more American to me. Could be headed into the GM plant to complain how his isn't willing to take a dime less to keep his company afloat. The Beer helps him rationalize his decisions.
Kip
Now that's to funny, cause I was thinking the same thing. One part at a time!!! LOL
And it didn't cost me a dime.....
Great song.
Catch the outfit!
Healthcare is certainly out of control, but I wouldn't say health care is a total free market either. But cars, clothes, electronics, and many other items have benefited by free market principles
A low end IBM PC in the early 80's was easily $4,000. A 35" Mitsubishi 35" tube TV in 1985 was $3,000. A vhs video recorder the size of a suit case used to cost well over $1,000 in the early 80's. Cheap clothes are offered everywhere. Sure you can spend $300 on a pair of jeans or $150 on shoes, but cheap alternatives exist at most retailers. Cars are hard to compare when you consider what you get for $ compared to say 25 years ago in terms of amenities and reliability, but overall cars have stayed in line with overall inflation.
Food prices are largely dependent on energy costs and other commodities etc, and have increased at a higher rate than many other items.
Without foreign competition, we'd probably be paying $45k for an Impala so GM could continue to afford expensive UAW contracts. But I guess that's is music to some people's ears.
That is typical socialist thinking. "SPREAD THE WEALTH" Take from everyone to support you local UAW. Right from the OBAMA play book. Yeah...Right ! :sick: :lemon:
Why should my or anyone elses income be cut that doesn't work for "CRASHING" companies? Nope, I'm not willing to give one red cent to UAW, or any of the Big 3 that have squandered money and produced products that are not selling.
There are companies that are doing whatever is necessary to keep the dead wood trimmed so the company and productive employees can survive.
http://www.wral.com/business/local_tech_wire/news/story/3955511/
UAW members don't seem to realize that they may have a hard time finding a job at any other manufacturing facility, when the human resources see the (unwritten) UAW on the resume. Sure as hell won't find a job paying the same as the company they helped to close down, unless they are shot full of luck
Kip.
"Chrysler auto assembly workers leave the plant after their shift ends at the Chrysler Warren Truck Assembly in Warren, Michigan October 14, 2008."
http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Chrysler-auto-assembly-Warren2C-Michigan-Chrysler-- Warren-Truck-Assembly/photo//081117/photos_ts/2008_11_17t010453_450x322_us_autos- _bailout_opinions//s:/nm/20081117/us_nm/us_autos_bailout_opinions;_ylt=AiC84v6v4- 9ie7OGc6pTW4tcXIr0F#photoViewer=/081117/photos_ts/2008_11_17t010453_450x322_us_a- utos_bailout_opinions
I remember back in the 70's and early 80's, my Mom usually bought me cheap shoes. Either NBA from Kinney Shoes, or some Thom McCahns or something like that. They usually came to about $20. Adjusted for inflation, $20 in 1980 is about $58 today. Yet today, you could get a halfway decent pair of shoes for about $50-60. Obviously not some top-of-the-line blingy thing, but it's not something the other kids will make fun of, either.
Yet today, if you still want cheap shoes, go to WalMart, K-Mart, or Payless, and you'll still pay about twenty bucks for them.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
And we would be driving 2009 versions of Granadas, Tempos, X-cars, Cavaliers, Mustang II's, etc. Buyers of the better American branded models today do not realize how thankful they should be that companies such as Honda and Toyota forced the Big 3 to improve their products.
UAW workers not responsible for decline of American brands. That rests entirely with high management.
434k fat cat weekend for golf after bailout received (good use of bailout money)
250 million tax abatement to Honda to put plant in Indiana (We are bailing out Japan)
700B bailout to AIG, Fannie, Freddie
retiring after 30 years to immediate pension and medical care
universal health care (bail out the non-working)
bailout loan to Big3
UAW workers take pay cut to $18 an hour
anyone who owes more than their house is worth has debt released down to 90% of value of house, especially if they took out a 2nd mortgage, and especially if they spent the 2nd mortgage on a Lexus SUV.
Unrelated:
The real world pays about $450 a month to buy my medical, dental, and life insurance from their employer in 2009. A little taste of reality outside the UAW.
When Delphi went into bankruptcy, the judge refused to do anything to the UAW. All he said was you 2 work it out. Nothing ever came of it. Where does the UAW get any motivation to make concessions?
The average American would rather buy a Japanese car and then pay taxes for unemployment and health care for ex us auto workers and the 1.5x effect beyond the auto industry.
US senators have finally came out and actually said that buying an american car makes the buyer look unintelligent. If I were a japanese auto executive, that would be on my 'dream list' of things to happen in america.
BTW-I don't recall Captain Smith giving out the command to farepayers on the Titanic "Everyone man their bailout stations and help us get all of this nasty water out of this beautiful new White Star liner!"
He did say that the ship was inevitably going to sink and something to the effect that this is going to be nasty for everyone concerned. He may have uttered a bumbly "God help us all", remember that from the movie? Anyone watched it lately?
Remember this statement: "There's no worries, M'am...I've just ordered the boiler room to light an additional two boilers. We're speeding up!"
Remind anyone of some huge corporation just a little bit? We're going to continue to ignore customer complaints and just hurry up and build more Tonka trucks for all of the Toby Keith's out there in America! And there are a lot of Toby Keiths out there, I seem to move to places where people just love GMC/Chevy/Ford/Dodge trucks.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
In wooing federal employee votes on the eve of the election, Barack Obama wrote a series of letters to workers that offer detailed descriptions of how he intends to add muscle to specific government programs, give new power to bureaucrats and roll back some Bush administration policies.
The letters, sent to employees at seven agencies, describe Obama's intention to scale back on contracts to private firms doing government work.
"I asked him to put it in writing, something I could use with my members, and he didn't flinch," said John Gage, president of the 600,000-member American Federation of Government Employees, who requested that Obama write the letters, which were distributed through the union. "The fact that he's willing to put his name to it is a good sign."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/16/AR2008111602440_- pf.html
Rocky, you better beat the rush and get on the books at your old government Union.
Regards,
OW
"Order First Class passengers on deck now! Keep the Economy Fare people (UAW) below until I give the word."
Eye, Eye, Captain!
Regards,
OW
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
http://listverse.com/miscellaneous/top-10-tips-to-prepare-for-a-depression/
I think we should all read this list carefully.
Eh? No.
UAW asked for excesses. Management provided them with such. Both should take the fall.
I repeat again. Government should mandate minimum wage to all employees, no bonuses, and bail them out. If any employee thinks he can do better somewhere else, let him test his skills out. My guess is that most employess will stay put because they will be good for nothing by now, having worked for so long under the "UAW" protection, and taking their jobs for granted. The US is a capitalistic market.
The U.S. Senate Banking Committee will hear testimony Tuesday from executives of Detroit's Big Three auto makers and the head of the United Auto Workers Union. Gonna be a busy week for the bigwigs.
all are responsible. UAW had great impact to cost and build quality. salary designed and developed. mgmt decided what plan was. Keep forgetting that plan calls for pensions, 100% medical, 100% dental, and was based on continued growth. UAW is forcing bankruptcy or status quo.
[non-permissible content removed] brands do NOTHING for America. Never have, never will.
No need to get emotional. Hands a tissue to Dave.
Turning your face away from the problem is not how you resolve a problem.
What companies have CUT retiree healthcare and checks????? Bethlehem Steel??? Kaiser Aluminum?? US Air??? Polaroid or Kemper insurance???
Sorry Charlie, but they ALL get their pension monies from YOU AND ME, courtesy of the PBGC. If the Big 3 go belly up, guess who pays the retirees?? Yep, YOU AND ME!!!! And there is no renegging on that, because PBGC is an INSURANCE POLICY, and it will HAVE to be PAID OUT
Like the old Fram commercial: Pay a "little" now, or pay a LOT later.
See, now hypothetically, what IF the courts cancelled all of GM's debt??? How would that affect the whole banking crisis???
Still, it is a matter of what we will pay when - not an if in any sense of the word.
I will say that if they did reduce the pensions I would have no faith in anything that's written down as to "from now on we'll do this." If they reneg on the current pensioners they'll reneg on future ones down the road.
However, we have allowed them entry to our markets. The auto market has been one. No barriers, tariffs, or hurdles to get in. The UAW has attained a high standard of living for folks who toil in many of these auto plants. Honest work for honest wages.Including the Toyota Corolla (UAW represented) plant in California. Many folks envy the compensation/benefit package. Instead of trying to get themselves the same or better, they want others to suffer with inferior compensation/benefit packages. Thats just plain envy. I say that they need to expend their efforts in organizing.
Who says socialism is dead in the USA. Everybody wants socialism, but don't want to be called out as such.
If UAW workers are in a tight place, why should the regular public funds help them out? Isn't that socialism of the highest degree? or are we obligated to do so because they deserve it?? If they can afford their full blown salary and health benefits on their own, nobody complained. Did they? Now that they cannot do so, why does GM want public funds to do just that??
I think you guys are taking what I said and spinning it. I thought this was the no spin zone but apparently I didn't get the memo ??? :P
The bottom line is if we don't bailout the Big 3 it will make the collapse of Wallstreet look like a ripple in the water in comparison !!! I think many folks don't realize just how much of a consquence the Big 3 going out of business will have on this economy. It would make the 1929' depression look like everyone is working !!! Thousands of small and large businesses will collapse and millions of folks will be unemployed. I think the american worker and the corporations who've tried to stay here in the U.S. have gotten a screw job for the last 20 or 30 years by our government and its free trade for one side policies !!! :mad:
Go ahead and tell your congressman "NO" on the bailout but when desperate people take up robbery and other criminal behavior to put food on the table then don't come on here and whine because I will say told you so !!!! :mad:
I have made it clear and have no doubt by looking at other economies as examples that I'm right on this subject !!!
ILUV, it is critical to have a class of people with disposable income pal. My father has a modest pension nothing like gagrice, gets or wages gagrice, made but he does have health benefits and does have to pay a portion of it out of his pocket.
It's going to come to the point of asking how much do union members needs to sacrifice ??? Their was no 401K available for my father to invest in back in the day and if he did have one well you've seen how well those Vegas, plans have faired here lately !!!! Yes I'm very passionate about this issue as I've seen already just how many jobs in manufacturing have been lost here locally and abroad. Thousands more in furniture sectors i.e. Herman Miller, Haworth, Steelcase, and automobile suppliers like Johnson Controls, Gentex, Donnelly, Delphi, have recently announced another round of lay-offs. Some might be living in area's of comfort and swallowing down their Jelly Bismarks, and Starbucks, but reality for a quarter of the U.S. work force looks very bad and the only solution some say is to cut here and there like that is going to solve the problems ???? I feel many folks are oblivious due to their local surroundings as I've spoken with friends in the Texas, Panhandle who've asked me what in the hell is going on ???? Well when your economy is based on agriculture, oil, government, sectors that currently have seen huge investment increases and rewards due to the Bush administration well it's hard to comprehend what a reccession feels like. I think that is part of the problem because many sectors that don't know what a factory is will not feel the damage until later.... If GM, Ford, Chrysler, aren't bringing in tax revenue for Uncle Sam, those government jobs will be cut as their won't be the money coming in to fund those projects. Once the borrowing from China, to fund the war ends a lot of these government jobs will be slashed !!! If we open up South America, for free-trade you can kiss those Texas farms good-bye because the South Americans, run plantations and the american farmer won't be able to compete with slave labor !!!! :mad:
Here's something related to this topic: EFCA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_zkU4rEIhQ
The above link is reality for people who want to organize in this country. EFCA, will make that right easier and will help overcome employer intimidation !!! I look forward to it's passage !!!!
-Rocky
http://www.drive-american.org/index.htm
That is very sound advice buddy !!!
-Rocky
-Rocky
But I, if you will recall, have been laid off twice from a company called The Boeing Company. And, I have pulled myself up by my bootstraps and re-trained for a totally different career, the Allied Health field.
So, I had to tie all of the bureacracy and red tape together, study hard, and I mean study hard, and I made it.
I can't help but think internally on this one. I can tell you from personal experience that there is life after a manufacturing job.
rock, tell me the truth here. Do you, in your heart of hearts, think GM can pull out of their large Depression with a, oh, let's say $50 Billion dollar Federal Government bailout?
Or are we just going to be prolonging everyone's misery. I remember 2002 at Boeing, everyone's productivity was being shot to hell because all everyone wanted to do was put down Phil Condit and Harry Stonecipher(two Boeing CEO's of that era). I mean, SPEEA got all the socialist juices going, but they also stirred the pot so that working on real Boeing jet aircraft drawings became a background hobby for us.
I am saying that the healthcare industry is hiring, you've just got to go out and line up some trianing for yourself. It's honest work, though, sure, my college tuition and books were paid for by The Trade Act, but it was done honestly and in view of all authorities.
This GM bailout is starting to smell of lobbyist-disease and pork-barrel large corporate hand-wringing and handouts. It's starting to really smell. I'm saying these people who are UAW can find another way out than working for GM. And why not large numbers of them? Huh?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
My sister was a long time UAL employee and she got her full pension in spite of UAL's bankruptcy. I think Kernick pointed out somewhere around here that the PGBC pension amount is based on years of service or some formula like that.
Since the Big 3's workers are generally older than those employed by the foreign car manufacturers in the US, many of their pensions may not be reduced all that much. Either way, the taxpayer is gonna be on the hook big time, since the premiums paid into the PGBC won't be near enough to cover the payments.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72cHfOKoA1c
-Rocky
No doubt about it that no matter how this goes we're going to pay a large fortune.
-Rocky
"The Rock"
--charlie
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,