according to the center for Automotive research and many other folks that want to keep bashing that issue, other sources say differently., the veteran uaw worker did not hire in that way, i don't believe, but does the UAW not plan on giving benefits to new hires either, will they(the new hires) not have the opportunity to negotiate in the future
I think it was called the Lucky Spot and I think it was just a made up name for the movie. But everyone in North Mississippi used to go up to the state line back in those days to the TN juke joints to get beer since booze was illegal in MS at the time. Now McNairy County is dry.
So, when B.O. solves the Health Care problems in the US, why would you even need the UAW? How much does it cost members each month? Money saved is money earned. Another layer is not necessary. Perhaps government needs to oversee fairness and that should be their biggest role in the inevitable funding plan for restructuring.
but does the UAW not plan on giving benefits to new hires either, will they(the new hires) not have the opportunity to negotiate in the future
The older members of the UAW threw the new hires to the dogs. The old dudes were intent on keeping their standard of living and sacrificed the new hires. They could have compromised and taken some cuts. This is the primary reason the Big 3 would like to buy out the older workers. Older workers are also less productive in many positions that require a strong back and weak mind.
Will the new hires be able to negotiate in the future? If the UAW compromises and there is a future. With Gettlefinger's position, it is doubtful the UAW will have much of a future. The uncompromising ignorance of the UAW brass has managed to lose over ONE MILLION jobs since 1979. Most were sent to Mexico and Canada. You cannot blame the Big 3 for trying to stay competitive. This last contract that screwed the new hires to protect the older people is not a new tactic for the UAW.
In 1985 the union's Canadian division disaffiliated from the UAW over a dispute regarding negotiation tactics and formed the Canadian Auto Workers as an independent union. Specifically the Canadian division claimed they were being used to pressure the companies for extra benefits which went mostly to the American members.wiki
So much for a Union that protects all members equally. In 37 years as an Alaska Teamster, I do not recall any bargaining unit contract that screwed the new hires to protect the older workers. Seniority is one thing. Graduated pay scales are common. The benefits should be equal for ALL members after the probationary period. Same goes for retirees. That is what Union means. One for all, all for one. The UAW is split now. That is not a Union. You can expect the new hires to be stabbing the older guys in the back.
Union, the UAW, desperately trying to hang on to the sweet life. Sorry-it's over, old fat Chevy dudes. Coming to a quick end. Bye. Cya-wouldn't wanna be ya. Cya-nara.
So, when B.O. solves the Health Care problems in the US, why would you even need the UAW?
What else does the UAW do? (and who else could do it?)
Negotiates contracts. Otherwise it's the company saying take it or leave it on pay, and they'll keep churning the workers to save another nickle. Having a stable workforce benefits the employer since it's expensive to train new workers, and the union can provide a stable workforce to choose from. (Pay your workers well, and let them vote with their feet).
Negotiate working conditions. The union will step in when an employer tells the line workers that they can only have two bathroom breaks a day. (OSHA could do that).
Protects workers rights. Think Troopergate. Seems like the unions have been good forcing companies to hire women and minorities too and protecting against agism firings. (Rely on OSHA. Workers Comp, Department of Labor or some other state or federal agency).
Training and apprentice programs. If the unions didn't train journeymen electricians who would? (Community colleges would be an answer - too bad Boise doesn't have any yet).
Fosters communication among the workforce. (Make the employees part of the company somehow - ownership, stock options - and they'll pay attention to what's going on and what's needed).
Nobody in the UAW has plans to screw each other gagrice
So you are saying the new hires get the same retirement and health care benefits as the guys with 10 years in the UAW?
I am not against Union representation for employees. I don't think the UAW is doing their members, the Big 3 and the country any favors by being bullheaded. With the UAW brass digging in their heels, I say let the chips fall where they may. We will find cars to buy if the Big 3 goes away. Probably better cars without the entitlement attitude the UAW and Big 3 have shown.
turns me off with his demands that we give them money but their veteran, higher paid workers won't take any reduction in healthcare for retirement or pay cut now and into retirement. His claims that we've already taken cuts is for the new employees--not the older veteran workers with the upper middle incomes.
I really resent paying more money to high paid UAW after the congress' bait and switch on how the money for their buddies in the financial markets get "free" money for the mistakes made by themselvs and by congress in the past 15 years.
I'm not sure where the Center of Automotive Research, is getting their information from because Steve Miller, was more accurate a few years ago when he made the quote of paying UAW workers $65 an/hr. to mow the lawn. He was of course being sarcastic but his numbers were much closer to being accurate than the C.A.R. numbers according to the people I've spoken with pertaining to the subject !!!! If you average the new hires wages and benefits it brings those numbers down by quite a bit !!!!!
I think it's time for the highly paid veterans to give up some pay and benefits to save their industry instead of asking the rest of America to bail out their jobs.
Oddly no one was real concerned as 95% of the auto industry jobs left the Dayton area. So I'm not real hot on paying taxes to bailout the rest of the auto industry jobs for those who want to bailout the UAW.
Note I don't mind bailing out GM after we've bailed out the financial goofball buddies of the congress to help cover their mistakes. But I don't like bailing out the highly paid veterans with their 100% retirement and 100% healthcare and 100% this and that. Time for concessions, boys.
Supposedly the ultimate police cars back in the late 60's were the full-sized Polara 440's. I think they'd top out at around 147 mph. The 426 made a great racecar engine, but to live with on a day-to-day basis, it was a pain in the [non-permissible content removed]. Even in "street" form, the 426 Hemi was a thinly disguised racecar engine. It needed to be driven flat-out, but wasn't well-suited to typical everyday driving. It would go out of tune very quickly, and didn't like to be driven slowly.
The 426 Hemi went mainly into intermediate cars, like the Satellite, Coronet, and Charger, although it found its way into a few Darts and Barracudas. I don't know if any full-sized cars officially got it, although I wouldn't be surprised if it ultimately ended up in a few.
Now the original Hemi, which started as a Chrysler 331 in 1951 and culminated with the 392 in 1958, no doubt found its way into some police cars. But by the 1960's and 1970's, I'm sure just about all Mopar police units were the big-block Wedge (383, 440, etc). The Hemi was discontinued after 1971, although some years later they re-issued it, and you could buy a Hemi block through Mopar Performance.
Well I think you should be asked to bail them out because people who vote for pseudo-capitalist politicians are partially responsible for their their failings. It's not General Motors, fault or the UAW's fault that people vote in treasonist politicians that support un free trade after we've seen what it leads too. I'm sorry Dayton's once very proud automobile industry sector has left town and I can sympathize very much with the people who've lost their jobs. I refuse to support any politician who's econimic agenda is more FREE TRADE !!! Why should these union folks be asked to give up their modest pension and health benefits ??? Why don't you ask your elected leaders to address these issues ??? I know one of your elected leaders in Ohio, Dennis Kucinich is very anti NAFTA, GATT, WTO !!!! Why should the small fry always be asked to sacrifice ??? I read the other day that something like $9,000,000,000 of your tax money is going towards executive compensation for this bailout but nobody says anything about that !!!! Why ??? :confuse:
I think our society is insane !!! The wealthy never get criticized for their actions yet people who've worked at a place for nearly 30 years for one of the biggest employers are being yet again asked to sacrifice which tells you that their is something very wrong with this country's way of thinking !!!!! :sick:
I thought I heard that imports get cash returned to them per vehicle(as a tax return?) or something, I think it's like a few thousand per vehicle? whatever the case for that, it's not fair.., We really don't need the imports here, it has effects on the global warming - The Big 3 can satisfy the demand here.
Rocky you keep coming back to a dead monkey. We are in a global economy. No politician is going to bring US back to 1945. When we conquered Japan and Germany we took on the responsibility to bring them into the free market. We now have done the same with many other countries including China your favorite whipping boy. How many US autoworkers have lost their jobs to the Chinese?
You seem to think that having 30 years in a business gives you a permanent job. If I had stayed with Pacific Telephone instead of going to Alaska in 1970 I would have gotten riffed in the 1980s like all the rest. Early out with a lousy pension and the need to retrain myself. So how is that any different than today? GM is not doing very well in selling cars people want. They have made a lot of mistakes including tying themselves to open ended retirement contracts. What good will $25 billion do GM? They will piss it away and still not be selling cars. The Volt is not going to make them any money according to Lutz.
You keep coming back to the new hires. What about the older UAW workers. Why should they not suffer along with the rest. GM is going broke. If they don't get this gift from all of US, they say they are toast. Where should the cuts take place. Do you have any figures on how much the top executives are making right now? If they were all cut to $0 would it make any difference in the balance sheet?
As far as how many billions are going to the crooks on top. It is up to Congress to control that money. They are just paying back their friends and benefactors.
Personally I would think that we should bail out the individual mortgages first. If you owe $200k on a home that is now worth $150K, we give you a new loan at a fixed 6% for the realistic appraised amount. Just finding anyone in the banking industry that is honest enough to administer such a program is probably impossible.
I fear that bailout will all end up in a black hole. Including any money wasted on the Big 3.
Before I would bailout UAW members and their companies, how about the other Americans out of work. Funny how only Auto employment counts. Well, join the club because one way or the other, the Big 3 are history. Pay now or later but forget what you see today. UAW will DIE as an entity. Considering this news, who the heck is going to buy a car from a failing THREE?
U.S. jobless claims reach 7-year high Last Updated: Thursday, November 13, 2008 | 1:57 PM ET Comments6Recommend6 CBC News
U.S. initial jobless claims have hit their highest since the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, according to figures released Thursday.
The U.S. Department of Labour said the number of Americans who asked for unemployment benefits spiked at 516,000 for the week ended Nov. 4. That level represented a jump of seven per cent, or 32,000, compared with a week earlier.
The jobless claims figures also was the highest since the last week of September 2001. Worse still, economists had expected the number to remain roughly stable at 484,000.
The jobless claims figures indicate a U.S. economy with its prospects heading south, experts said.
"This report provides little reason for optimism about any easing in the pace of jobs declines from the 240,000 drop in October and the risk of an even more pronounced drop," said RBC Economics assistant chief economist Paul Ferley in a commentary Thursday.
As a four-week average, 491,000 Americans asked for employment benefits in the most recent reading, up 13,000 from the 477,000 one week earlier.
Examining these figures as a monthly average reduces the economic effect of a single event, such as a hurricane, on employment.
Another measure of the weakening U.S. jobs situation — the number of workers who receive employment benefits on a continued basis — stayed at a five-year peak.
For the past three weeks, U.S. continuing jobless claims averaged 3.7 million, the highest figures since June 2003.
I fear that bailout will all end up in a black hole. Including any money wasted on the Big 3.
Unfortunately, I think your right gagrice. The only way I can support a bail out is if GM/Ford can restructure to the point where they can be profitable. Meaning huge layoffs of both labor and management. They need to downsize to the point where they can be profitable. Ditch Saturn, Buick, Mercury and possibly Pontiac if they can't come up with a decent product line.
I don't agree that all of GMs problems are due to currency manipulation and trade agreements. I'm not old enough to remember when GM/Ford made a line up of desirable cars and I've been driving for 20 years. Sure they've built a few good cars over the years, but the reason GM no longer has 50% market share is because of the piss poor offerings.
I always look for domestic offerings first, but I want the choice to buy what I want. I certainly don't want a politician or the jackass in charge of the UAW to have any say regarding what my choices are.
Sure GM and Ford have the capacity to supply the vehicle demand here in the US, but Idon't want to be stuck with those choices. Not that it would work. We close off our shores, then other countries won't let GM/Ford offer cars there. Ford and GM makes a lot of money from oversea operations.
I won't put all the blame on the UAW either. Management ran this company into the ground. Though, I think the UAW is pretty clueless too. Ron Gettelfinger's comment that GM is in the position they are in is due to the current state of our economy is laughable. Sure, the last 30 years of bad management decisions and restrictive labor contracts has nothing to do with it.
>It's not General Motors, fault or the UAW's fault that people vote in treasonist politicians that support un free trade after we've seen what it leads too.
Did Clinton go for loosening the trade? I don't recall...
Who did let the first foreign car plants and builders into the US without substantial tariffs? Which politicians?
I was just listening to a roundtable discussion talk show on Chicago AM radio 890 where they were debating what to do about letting the US car companies die? Interesting to hear them talk about Obama and Gettelfinger, etc.
has meaning to me. That's the month in 2003 that I arrived in Rolla, MO, my wife and I looking for a small rental home to stay in while I went to Respiratory school. I was one of those jobless at that time, but I was just starting to get registered for college at that time.
To me, this period of time seems worse than June of 2003. I had a plan, though, I wonder how many in America don't really have a recovery plan. I mean, shouldn't that be in UAW workers' minds right now? Shouldn't it?
No phony-baloney jobs bank will save you this time.
If we don't bailout the Big 3, and let em' die then I will be very angry if our government gives any more money to Wallstreet, as let em' dies also !!! :mad:
I understand we are in a global economy gagrice, but that doesn't mean I have to like it or agree with it !!! This country needs to revolt but I'm afraid it will have to get much worse before the people rise up against the status quo !!! :sick:
As far as the individual mortgages you want to bail out all I can say that makes zero sense if your against bailouts in general ??? Why don't you let the free-market work like the pseudo-capitalist says ??? :confuse:
If we don't bailout the Big 3, and let em' die then I will be very angry if our government gives any more money to Wallstreet, as let em' dies also !!!
I agree.
Then again, I'm an unapologetic capitalist free-trader & I'm opposed to any & all bail-outs. Let the market do its work.
man, this bailout idea is running up against it big-time. People don't really support a bailout right now. Can you figure out why? It's because they're not all doing very well, either.
I find myself wavering between supporting a bailout and then not. Right now I'm for letting the market right itself out the hard way. I mean, when's it gonna all stop?
They've already given $85B to AIG? Yikes. What might that tell you about a bailout? They will bail GM, Ford and Chrysler out, it's just a matter of how much they'll give out.
spirit6100...I am poking fun at the GM Jobs Bank. Another hare-brained idea from the General that is past running it's course.
I agree, let the market right itself and put an end to this crazy bailout train.
As far as the individual mortgages you want to bail out all I can say that makes zero sense if your against bailouts in general ??
I have been against ALL bailouts since the first ones were announced. I would vote against anyone in Congress that signed the bailout bill. I cannot see where it has helped the situation at all. If anything it has made it worse. My comment on helping the individuals with their mortgages was IF the Congress is so enamored with the idea of bailing folks out. Why not the working man. And of course they will not. The working man is screwed. All the bailout of the Big 3 will do is help keep UAW jobs until the first of the year. GM is BROKE. They may owe as much as $200 billion already. How are they going to pay back a loan to the Feds.
You heard Obama tonight. He said the Management AND LABOR need to come up with a plan to make the Big 3 profitable. If not NO bailout. Labor has already said they are not interested in solving the problems. That means it is a dead deal.
They don't need your votes for a couple years so you are just on your own.
While I'm against the financial villains abetted by their politicians cronies getting bailouts for trading silly madeup fiancial items, I'm also against giving mortgage relief to those who took mortgages they had no hope of paying to fruition. I paid my mortgages through the years, I traded, I bought, I planned, I saved, I scrimped, I spent carefully. Bah humbug on giving Joe Frivolous a bailout.
And that fits with my opinion of giving money to highly paid UAW workers, the older ones, rather than just bailing out the industry to maintain jobs for those people who are being paid $12 or $14 to work what the others are getting $50 for.
if our government gives any more money to Wallstreet
That was what the bailout bill was all about. If you voted for any of those in Congress that voted for the bailout you are a party to it. There was nothing about bailing out individual businesses. There are people losing jobs in every field. Why not bail out all the contractors that have gone broke since the housing bubble burst? Half the states are lined up trying to get money from the Feds. I believe Michigan is in that group. Cities like Vallejo, CA cannot pay their police and firefighters.
To me GM is small potatoes compared to the big picture. The UAW has a chance to show they are interested in the Domestic auto industry. I think they are too greedy to do anything of a constructive nature. I know at least a half dozen people personally that have lost there jobs in the last month. Our church has helped several of them. To me they are more important than some fat cat autoworker that is unwilling to give up his great health care plan to keep GM solvent.
I traded, I bought, I planned, I saved, I scrimped, I spent carefully. Bah humbug on giving Joe Frivolous a bailout.
Being someone that has always lived well below my means I totally agree with you. It is hard to see friends and family lose their homes. Even when we begged them not to go for that ARM or payment that would stretch them to the limit. So many people bought into the flippers dream. It was like musical chairs. It was only a matter of time before the music stopped.
I find it silly to think the automobile industry is any more important than any other. It is hard to imagine what a car would look like if Congress was at the helm of GM.
>"To me they are more important than some fat cat autoworker that is unwilling to give up his great health care plan to keep GM solvent. "
Agreed! Seems uncanny that someone would rather loose their company, and therefore their job, before giving a single cent toward helping themselves. Are they that stupid, or just that greedy?
Isn't there a type of bankruptcy, that doesn't cancel debt, but gives time to restructure? Would that give the Big 3 any extra leverage with existing union contracts?
Somewhere, somehow, companies are going to have to STOP and rethink their positions, as well as their direction. Reorganize and re structure if necessary. They need to retrain their people, if they are going to remain viable and not be forced out of business, or out of the country. Those in power need to have enough backbone to cut the dead wood when necessary so the productive wood can remain healthy. Dead wood from the very top to the very bottom.
Companies, unwilling to do that, don't deserve 1 dime of help. AIG is a good example of executives that need to be "TAKEN OUT", one way or the other!
No money should be given uh, "loaned" to any organization that can't show responsibility and a good plan of how they intend to pay it back.
Whenever bad behavior is rewarded, it will continue!
The Ford Plant in South Atlanta closed it's doors a few years ago. The GM Plant in North Atlanta did the same, recently. Yet Kia is building a plant in West Georgia. It may be operational now, or in the near future. Does that not tell the B3 and the UAW something?
Gettlefinger turned me off with his media-whoring last Friday. As I've said, the older veteran, highly paid workers should be taking pay reductions to equalize with the newer, low-paid employees. The retirees need to take a cut in their lush pay checks and health care plans to help the company they bled for so many years. While other companies have cut retiree healthcare and checks, UAW has kept theirs high. If there's no equalization in the paychecks, worker and retiree, I do NOT want to see fed money going to the UAW.
I do want to see money going to keep GM working. The same congress who gave a blank check for the financial companies and now we have no idea where the treasury secretary paid out what monies is the same congress in charge of setting rules for the big 3 help checks. The same congress who allowed the foreign companies to build here unchecked are in charge. The same congress who allowed countries to build here who won't let our companies in without all kinds of red tape is in charge.
I'm not hoping for a "thinking" solution from congress. Congress and thinking seem to be oxymorons, unless it's thinking about kickback, lobby money, and election campaign funds.
As usual when you talk about Mopar stuff, you are perfectly correct. Our dept in the late 60's had 427 Chevys and the next city had 440 Plymouth intermidates. No dept. I am aware of had 426 Mopars in their units, they would never hold up to the daily idling, low speed, wouldn't last a week without overhaul.
sn't there a type of bankruptcy, that doesn't cancel debt, but gives time to restructure? Would that give the Big 3 any extra leverage with existing union contracts?
That would be Chapter 11. I'm not a bankruptcy attorney, but I believe under chapter 11, contracts and debt relief is subject to the court to decide. It would be a huge mess for both GM and it's suppliers/creditors to go through this process. I think many suppliers would follow suit if GM went BK.
Well those UAW, retiree members might as well ask teachers to give up their health and retiree benefits also to share in the sacrifice. Hell everyone needs to have their pension, healthcare, 401K benefits cut so we can help "every company" not have to borrow money to provide their goods or services at a reduced rate and make more money so the CEO's will have more money to fuel that corporate jet and pay themselves lavish bonuses. That means you and gagrice, should start sacrificing as I'm sure this recession has affected ya'lls respective companies. Gagrice, should start signing over part of his pension check to compensate the golden goose that laid his golden Teamster Pension eggs. I assume many others like imidazol97, have retiree benefits from the private or public sector and should go in today to your employer and say "Hey boss, times are tough right now and I want to give you back 50% of my pay and benefits because despite the fact that I may or may not of earned my modest pay and benefits I just don't want to be labled greedy" :surprise:
It is unbelievable that only a few of you are interested in fixing a broken system and the others like the economy believe you can "cut" your way back to the black. All statistics show the less disposable income your average americans have the lower the standard of living your average americans will have. It's not like we've seen automobile, clothing, food, healthcare, cost become cheaper in the "free-market"
The bottom line is if people like the UAW, workers make less it will have a domino effect and you can kiss a lot of small business good bye and the chain effect will make the large ones have to restructure as well !!!....I guess adding millions more to the unemployment lines because we let the "Free Market" work without fixing a broken system that's okay by many. I guess that is until you or a spouse find themselves in the soup line with millions of others !!! :sick:
>All statistics show the less disposable income your average americans have the lower the standard of living your average americans will have.
And that's exactly the problem. The highly paid UAW sector (vs the less well-paid newer UAW workers) expects everyone else to pay more taxes to support giving money to the retired and highly-paid current workers rather than having that money to spend for themselves in the economy.
>retiree members might as well ask teachers to give up their health and retiree benefits
As for teachers taking a reductions, they did throughout their work career. They're not taking any more cuts. I don't think there's any parallel between a worker at an auto plant with no expectation of technical training or professional degrees and the professional training and degrees and certifications on the part of a teacher in most states.
>It is unbelievable that only a few of you are interested in fixing a broken system and the others like the economy believe you can "cut" your way back to the black.
The company and fixing it is what I'm interested in. That requires sacrifice on the part of the stupid management through the years, at least at GM. Replace the whol mess. No platinum parachutes.
As for paying more to the broken system of UAW retaining overpayment for their highly-paid portion of the employee set--NO; for the lower, more competitively-paid set of workers who started at $14/hr with benefits on top of that, YES, let's keep the jobs for them. Otherwise they will have to go look for a job at the Toyota, MB, Honda, Kia, VW plants that our Congress let in during the past decades.
Based on what I'm hearing in callers from the WLS Don Wade and Roma show and last night's discussion shows there, most citizens don't think the bailout should include the union contracts surviving. Gettlefinger really turned me off with his stance and tone; there's a reason Jimmy Hoffa is somewhere not to be found ever... Gettlefinger exemplies that.
Well those UAW, retiree members might as well ask teachers to give up their health and retiree benefits also to share in the sacrifice. Hell everyone needs to have their pension, healthcare, 401K benefits cut so we can help "every company" not have to borrow money to provide their goods or services
I would expect there may be some cities and states that will have to cut retiree benefits. Our AK Teamster retirees lost all health care benefits years ago. They could see it was going to break the retirement fund. It is not any fault except the UAW brass that believed there was an endless supply of money. I could have my pension cut if the fiduciaries feel that more is going out than coming in. It is their responsibility to keep the retirement in the black. It is not the tax payers responsibility. It is the UAW leadership's responsibility. They are a gigantic failure.
It's not like we've seen automobile, clothing, food, healthcare, cost become cheaper in the "free-market"
Are you kidding me. You said your brother just bought a new car for 35% less than MSRP. Cloths are cheaper in the free market. Food has leveled out since fuel went back down. Health care is out of control for sure.
The bottom line is if people like the UAW, workers make less it will have a domino effect and you can kiss a lot of small business good bye
You need to get out and look around. You tried selling GM cars to a public that was not buying. There are a lot of businesses already going belly up. While UAW workers are still making more than the average. So why should the money go to GM and not these smaller companies that are already hurt. You think that will make the cars affordable. My friend that got laid off at a big Ford agency along with 7 other technicians, told me they only sold 3 cars in October. A year ago they sold 300 a month. Looks to me like the Big 3 have already failed. What would throwing good money at them do? The Big 3 and their UAW cronies need to accept the fact that they are a gigantic FAILURE. They are NO longer a viable business model. Billions of tax dollars will not fix the problem. Only prolong the end. For those that have already lost jobs due to Big 3 FAILURES, are just as important as the prima donna UAW workers. Gettlefinger and his high and mighty attitude makes me want to puke.
There are and will be many others. Many, many people who thought they nice, permanent pork jobs for cities, counties, states, and other political entities will find themselves terminated, some gently, some not so gently. People will begin to realize they could be next. They will need all their money to slide through.
The only ones not worried about cuts will be the welfare/entitlement crowd whose votes will be bought again in every election with promises of mo' money, mo' money, less responsibility. But I see that terminating at 2010 or at worst 2012 if the economy crash is still hurting.
The UAW will probably still have Gettlefinger complaining about their overpaid jobs leaving as they have sucked the whale dry.
under chapter 11, contracts and debt relief is subject to the court to decide. It would be a huge mess for both GM and it's suppliers/creditors to go through
I think the number is nine out of ten Chapter 11's get converted to a liquidation. About the only way for it to work is for GM would be for them to negotiate financing ahead of time and maybe even work out agreements with the union, suppliers and dealers before filing and then present their reorganization plan as a fait accompli.
Even then the plan is subject to court approval and supervision and anyone not in on the deal (like those owed money who don't have any security for payment) will object and try to change things around.
Getting out of bankruptcy would take GM at least a year - look at United Airlines; they took four years to leave Chapter 11. That's a lot of uncertainty for car buyers.
The UAW will probably still have Gettlefinger complaining about their overpaid jobs leaving as they have sucked the whale dry.
The UAW has lost over half of its members since he has become President. Gettlefinger is hoping his political support will solve the problems. It does not address the facts. No one is buying Big 3 cars. And the truck market is in the toilet.
The union’s membership at General Motors, Ford Motor Company and Chrysler has been nearly halved to 139,000 workers in the past three years, and it continues to shrink with every new plant closing.
Mr. Gettelfinger, who is 64, wields new political clout in the debate this week in Congress over how to help Detroit survive the worst vehicle market in 15 years.
The U.A.W. was instrumental in the pivotal victories in Michigan and Ohio by Barack Obama in the presidential election, and two union loyalists in Michigan, Gov. Jennifer M. Granholm and former Representative David E. Bonior, are members of Mr. Obama’s economic advisory team.
For all its political heft, however, Detroit’s labor costs and union contracts will more than likely come under attack in House and Senate hearings.
>Getting out of bankruptcy would take GM at least a year - look at United Airlines; they took four years to leave Chapter 11. That's a lot of uncertainty for car buyers.
The Auto companies executives AND the workers took max money while they could. Now they should all be given minimum wage and use all that money saved + Government loan to restructure and get back to business. In this situation, I wonder if they are still foolish enough to arm wrestle with their collective bargaining power. If they (the union) as well as the executives have ANY self respect and ownership left, they should respect this offer (of mine), and prove that they are worth something and let them build the tower of respect again, brick by brick. What is the worst that can happen if they do not?
The really good executives and workers will find jobs at the competition which will be expanding their manufacturing to fill in the void left by the demise of these sluggish giants.
Comments
Maybe you can tell by looking at a pic of one of the squad cars. Another pic here.
Ok, back to UAW stuff....
Like I said before, nothing is off the table.
Regards,
OW
The older members of the UAW threw the new hires to the dogs. The old dudes were intent on keeping their standard of living and sacrificed the new hires. They could have compromised and taken some cuts. This is the primary reason the Big 3 would like to buy out the older workers. Older workers are also less productive in many positions that require a strong back and weak mind.
Will the new hires be able to negotiate in the future? If the UAW compromises and there is a future. With Gettlefinger's position, it is doubtful the UAW will have much of a future. The uncompromising ignorance of the UAW brass has managed to lose over ONE MILLION jobs since 1979. Most were sent to Mexico and Canada. You cannot blame the Big 3 for trying to stay competitive. This last contract that screwed the new hires to protect the older people is not a new tactic for the UAW.
In 1985 the union's Canadian division disaffiliated from the UAW over a dispute regarding negotiation tactics and formed the Canadian Auto Workers as an independent union. Specifically the Canadian division claimed they were being used to pressure the companies for extra benefits which went mostly to the American members.wiki
So much for a Union that protects all members equally. In 37 years as an Alaska Teamster, I do not recall any bargaining unit contract that screwed the new hires to protect the older workers. Seniority is one thing. Graduated pay scales are common. The benefits should be equal for ALL members after the probationary period. Same goes for retirees. That is what Union means. One for all, all for one. The UAW is split now. That is not a Union. You can expect the new hires to be stabbing the older guys in the back.
Slap me five, high 5-in white guy!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Nobody in the UAW has plans to screw each other gagrice
What else does the UAW do? (and who else could do it?)
Negotiates contracts. Otherwise it's the company saying take it or leave it on pay, and they'll keep churning the workers to save another nickle. Having a stable workforce benefits the employer since it's expensive to train new workers, and the union can provide a stable workforce to choose from. (Pay your workers well, and let them vote with their feet).
Negotiate working conditions. The union will step in when an employer tells the line workers that they can only have two bathroom breaks a day. (OSHA could do that).
Protects workers rights. Think Troopergate.
Training and apprentice programs. If the unions didn't train journeymen electricians who would? (Community colleges would be an answer - too bad Boise doesn't have any yet).
Fosters communication among the workforce. (Make the employees part of the company somehow - ownership, stock options - and they'll pay attention to what's going on and what's needed).
So you are saying the new hires get the same retirement and health care benefits as the guys with 10 years in the UAW?
I am not against Union representation for employees. I don't think the UAW is doing their members, the Big 3 and the country any favors by being bullheaded. With the UAW brass digging in their heels, I say let the chips fall where they may. We will find cars to buy if the Big 3 goes away. Probably better cars without the entitlement attitude the UAW and Big 3 have shown.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Old becomes new - decension becomes fair.
Regards,
OW
I really resent paying more money to high paid UAW after the congress' bait and switch on how the money for their buddies in the financial markets get "free" money for the mistakes made by themselvs and by congress in the past 15 years.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
-Rocky
I think it's time for the highly paid veterans to give up some pay and benefits to save their industry instead of asking the rest of America to bail out their jobs.
Oddly no one was real concerned as 95% of the auto industry jobs left the Dayton area. So I'm not real hot on paying taxes to bailout the rest of the auto industry jobs for those who want to bailout the UAW.
Note I don't mind bailing out GM after we've bailed out the financial goofball buddies of the congress to help cover their mistakes. But I don't like bailing out the highly paid veterans with their 100% retirement and 100% healthcare and 100% this and that. Time for concessions, boys.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Supposedly the ultimate police cars back in the late 60's were the full-sized Polara 440's. I think they'd top out at around 147 mph. The 426 made a great racecar engine, but to live with on a day-to-day basis, it was a pain in the [non-permissible content removed]. Even in "street" form, the 426 Hemi was a thinly disguised racecar engine. It needed to be driven flat-out, but wasn't well-suited to typical everyday driving. It would go out of tune very quickly, and didn't like to be driven slowly.
The 426 Hemi went mainly into intermediate cars, like the Satellite, Coronet, and Charger, although it found its way into a few Darts and Barracudas. I don't know if any full-sized cars officially got it, although I wouldn't be surprised if it ultimately ended up in a few.
Now the original Hemi, which started as a Chrysler 331 in 1951 and culminated with the 392 in 1958, no doubt found its way into some police cars. But by the 1960's and 1970's, I'm sure just about all Mopar police units were the big-block Wedge (383, 440, etc). The Hemi was discontinued after 1971, although some years later they re-issued it, and you could buy a Hemi block through Mopar Performance.
I think our society is insane !!! The wealthy never get criticized for their actions yet people who've worked at a place for nearly 30 years for one of the biggest employers are being yet again asked to sacrifice which tells you that their is something very wrong with this country's way of thinking !!!!! :sick:
-Rocky
We really don't need the imports here, it has effects on the global warming - The Big 3 can satisfy the demand here.
You seem to think that having 30 years in a business gives you a permanent job. If I had stayed with Pacific Telephone instead of going to Alaska in 1970 I would have gotten riffed in the 1980s like all the rest. Early out with a lousy pension and the need to retrain myself. So how is that any different than today? GM is not doing very well in selling cars people want. They have made a lot of mistakes including tying themselves to open ended retirement contracts. What good will $25 billion do GM? They will piss it away and still not be selling cars. The Volt is not going to make them any money according to Lutz.
You keep coming back to the new hires. What about the older UAW workers. Why should they not suffer along with the rest. GM is going broke. If they don't get this gift from all of US, they say they are toast. Where should the cuts take place. Do you have any figures on how much the top executives are making right now? If they were all cut to $0 would it make any difference in the balance sheet?
As far as how many billions are going to the crooks on top. It is up to Congress to control that money. They are just paying back their friends and benefactors.
Personally I would think that we should bail out the individual mortgages first. If you owe $200k on a home that is now worth $150K, we give you a new loan at a fixed 6% for the realistic appraised amount. Just finding anyone in the banking industry that is honest enough to administer such a program is probably impossible.
I fear that bailout will all end up in a black hole. Including any money wasted on the Big 3.
U.S. jobless claims reach 7-year high
Last Updated: Thursday, November 13, 2008 | 1:57 PM ET Comments6Recommend6
CBC News
U.S. initial jobless claims have hit their highest since the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, according to figures released Thursday.
The U.S. Department of Labour said the number of Americans who asked for unemployment benefits spiked at 516,000 for the week ended Nov. 4. That level represented a jump of seven per cent, or 32,000, compared with a week earlier.
The jobless claims figures also was the highest since the last week of September 2001. Worse still, economists had expected the number to remain roughly stable at 484,000.
The jobless claims figures indicate a U.S. economy with its prospects heading south, experts said.
"This report provides little reason for optimism about any easing in the pace of jobs declines from the 240,000 drop in October and the risk of an even more pronounced drop," said RBC Economics assistant chief economist Paul Ferley in a commentary Thursday.
As a four-week average, 491,000 Americans asked for employment benefits in the most recent reading, up 13,000 from the 477,000 one week earlier.
Examining these figures as a monthly average reduces the economic effect of a single event, such as a hurricane, on employment.
Another measure of the weakening U.S. jobs situation — the number of workers who receive employment benefits on a continued basis — stayed at a five-year peak.
For the past three weeks, U.S. continuing jobless claims averaged 3.7 million, the highest figures since June 2003.
Regards,
OW
Unfortunately, I think your right gagrice. The only way I can support a bail out is if GM/Ford can restructure to the point where they can be profitable. Meaning huge layoffs of both labor and management. They need to downsize to the point where they can be profitable. Ditch Saturn, Buick, Mercury and possibly Pontiac if they can't come up with a decent product line.
I don't agree that all of GMs problems are due to currency manipulation and trade agreements. I'm not old enough to remember when GM/Ford made a line up of desirable cars and I've been driving for 20 years. Sure they've built a few good cars over the years, but the reason GM no longer has 50% market share is because of the piss poor offerings.
I always look for domestic offerings first, but I want the choice to buy what I want. I certainly don't want a politician or the jackass in charge of the UAW to have any say regarding what my choices are.
Sure GM and Ford have the capacity to supply the vehicle demand here in the US, but Idon't want to be stuck with those choices. Not that it would work. We close off our shores, then other countries won't let GM/Ford offer cars there. Ford and GM makes a lot of money from oversea operations.
I won't put all the blame on the UAW either. Management ran this company into the ground. Though, I think the UAW is pretty clueless too. Ron Gettelfinger's comment that GM is in the position they are in is due to the current state of our economy is laughable. Sure, the last 30 years of bad management decisions and restrictive labor contracts has nothing to do with it.
Did Clinton go for loosening the trade? I don't recall...
Who did let the first foreign car plants and builders into the US without substantial tariffs? Which politicians?
I was just listening to a roundtable discussion talk show on Chicago AM radio 890 where they were debating what to do about letting the US car companies die? Interesting to hear them talk about Obama and Gettelfinger, etc.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
To me, this period of time seems worse than June of 2003. I had a plan, though, I wonder how many in America don't really have a recovery plan. I mean, shouldn't that be in UAW workers' minds right now? Shouldn't it?
No phony-baloney jobs bank will save you this time.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
If we don't bailout the Big 3, and let em' die then I will be very angry if our government gives any more money to Wallstreet, as let em' dies also !!! :mad:
I understand we are in a global economy gagrice, but that doesn't mean I have to like it or agree with it !!! This country needs to revolt but I'm afraid it will have to get much worse before the people rise up against the status quo !!! :sick:
As far as the individual mortgages you want to bail out all I can say that makes zero sense if your against bailouts in general ??? Why don't you let the free-market work like the pseudo-capitalist says ??? :confuse:
-Rocky
I agree.
Then again, I'm an unapologetic capitalist free-trader & I'm opposed to any & all bail-outs. Let the market do its work.
I find myself wavering between supporting a bailout and then not. Right now I'm for letting the market right itself out the hard way. I mean, when's it gonna all stop?
They've already given $85B to AIG? Yikes. What might that tell you about a bailout?
They will bail GM, Ford and Chrysler out, it's just a matter of how much they'll give out.
spirit6100...I am poking fun at the GM Jobs Bank. Another hare-brained idea from the General that is past running it's course.
I agree, let the market right itself and put an end to this crazy bailout train.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I have been against ALL bailouts since the first ones were announced. I would vote against anyone in Congress that signed the bailout bill. I cannot see where it has helped the situation at all. If anything it has made it worse. My comment on helping the individuals with their mortgages was IF the Congress is so enamored with the idea of bailing folks out. Why not the working man. And of course they will not. The working man is screwed. All the bailout of the Big 3 will do is help keep UAW jobs until the first of the year. GM is BROKE. They may owe as much as $200 billion already. How are they going to pay back a loan to the Feds.
You heard Obama tonight. He said the Management AND LABOR need to come up with a plan to make the Big 3 profitable. If not NO bailout. Labor has already said they are not interested in solving the problems. That means it is a dead deal.
They don't need your votes for a couple years so you are just on your own.
And that fits with my opinion of giving money to highly paid UAW workers, the older ones, rather than just bailing out the industry to maintain jobs for those people who are being paid $12 or $14 to work what the others are getting $50 for.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That was what the bailout bill was all about. If you voted for any of those in Congress that voted for the bailout you are a party to it. There was nothing about bailing out individual businesses. There are people losing jobs in every field. Why not bail out all the contractors that have gone broke since the housing bubble burst? Half the states are lined up trying to get money from the Feds. I believe Michigan is in that group. Cities like Vallejo, CA cannot pay their police and firefighters.
To me GM is small potatoes compared to the big picture. The UAW has a chance to show they are interested in the Domestic auto industry. I think they are too greedy to do anything of a constructive nature. I know at least a half dozen people personally that have lost there jobs in the last month. Our church has helped several of them. To me they are more important than some fat cat autoworker that is unwilling to give up his great health care plan to keep GM solvent.
Being someone that has always lived well below my means I totally agree with you. It is hard to see friends and family lose their homes. Even when we begged them not to go for that ARM or payment that would stretch them to the limit. So many people bought into the flippers dream. It was like musical chairs. It was only a matter of time before the music stopped.
I find it silly to think the automobile industry is any more important than any other. It is hard to imagine what a car would look like if Congress was at the helm of GM.
Agreed! Seems uncanny that someone would rather loose their company, and therefore their job, before giving a single cent toward helping themselves. Are they that stupid, or just that greedy?
Isn't there a type of bankruptcy, that doesn't cancel debt, but gives time to restructure? Would that give the Big 3 any extra leverage with existing union contracts?
Somewhere, somehow, companies are going to have to STOP and rethink their positions, as well as their direction. Reorganize and re structure if necessary. They need to retrain their people, if they are going to remain viable and not be forced out of business, or out of the country. Those in power need to have enough backbone to cut the dead wood when necessary so the productive wood can remain healthy. Dead wood from the very top to the very bottom.
Companies, unwilling to do that, don't deserve 1 dime of help. AIG is a good example of executives that need to be "TAKEN OUT", one way or the other!
No money should be
givenuh, "loaned" to any organization that can't show responsibility and a good plan of how they intend to pay it back.Whenever bad behavior is rewarded, it will continue!
The Ford Plant in South Atlanta closed it's doors a few years ago. The GM Plant in North Atlanta did the same, recently. Yet Kia is building a plant in West Georgia.
It may be operational now, or in the near future. Does that not tell the B3 and the UAW something?
Kip
I do want to see money going to keep GM working. The same congress who gave a blank check for the financial companies and now we have no idea where the treasury secretary paid out what monies is the same congress in charge of setting rules for the big 3 help checks. The same congress who allowed the foreign companies to build here unchecked are in charge. The same congress who allowed countries to build here who won't let our companies in without all kinds of red tape is in charge.
I'm not hoping for a "thinking" solution from congress. Congress and thinking seem to be oxymorons, unless it's thinking about kickback, lobby money, and election campaign funds.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That would be Chapter 11. I'm not a bankruptcy attorney, but I believe under chapter 11, contracts and debt relief is subject to the court to decide. It would be a huge mess for both GM and it's suppliers/creditors to go through this process. I think many suppliers would follow suit if GM went BK.
Well those UAW, retiree members might as well ask teachers to give up their health and retiree benefits also to share in the sacrifice. Hell everyone needs to have their pension, healthcare, 401K benefits cut so we can help "every company" not have to borrow money to provide their goods or services at a reduced rate and make more money so the CEO's will have more money to fuel that corporate jet and pay themselves lavish bonuses. That means you and gagrice, should start sacrificing as I'm sure this recession has affected ya'lls respective companies. Gagrice, should start signing over part of his pension check to compensate the golden goose that laid his golden Teamster Pension eggs.
It is unbelievable that only a few of you are interested in fixing a broken system and the others like the economy believe you can "cut" your way back to the black. All statistics show the less disposable income your average americans have the lower the standard of living your average americans will have. It's not like we've seen automobile, clothing, food, healthcare, cost become cheaper in the "free-market"
The bottom line is if people like the UAW, workers make less it will have a domino effect and you can kiss a lot of small business good bye and the chain effect will make the large ones have to restructure as well !!!....I guess adding millions more to the unemployment lines because we let the "Free Market" work without fixing a broken system that's okay by many. I guess that is until you or a spouse find themselves in the soup line with millions of others !!! :sick:
-Rocky
And that's exactly the problem. The highly paid UAW sector (vs the less well-paid newer UAW workers) expects everyone else to pay more taxes to support giving money to the retired and highly-paid current workers rather than having that money to spend for themselves in the economy.
>retiree members might as well ask teachers to give up their health and retiree benefits
As for teachers taking a reductions, they did throughout their work career. They're not taking any more cuts. I don't think there's any parallel between a worker at an auto plant with no expectation of technical training or professional degrees and the professional training and degrees and certifications on the part of a teacher in most states.
>It is unbelievable that only a few of you are interested in fixing a broken system and the others like the economy believe you can "cut" your way back to the black.
The company and fixing it is what I'm interested in. That requires sacrifice on the part of the stupid management through the years, at least at GM. Replace the whol mess. No platinum parachutes.
As for paying more to the broken system of UAW retaining overpayment for their highly-paid portion of the employee set--NO; for the lower, more competitively-paid set of workers who started at $14/hr with benefits on top of that, YES, let's keep the jobs for them. Otherwise they will have to go look for a job at the Toyota, MB, Honda, Kia, VW plants that our Congress let in during the past decades.
Based on what I'm hearing in callers from the WLS Don Wade and Roma show and last night's discussion shows there, most citizens don't think the bailout should include the union contracts surviving. Gettlefinger really turned me off with his stance and tone; there's a reason Jimmy Hoffa is somewhere not to be found ever... Gettlefinger exemplies that.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I would expect there may be some cities and states that will have to cut retiree benefits. Our AK Teamster retirees lost all health care benefits years ago. They could see it was going to break the retirement fund. It is not any fault except the UAW brass that believed there was an endless supply of money. I could have my pension cut if the fiduciaries feel that more is going out than coming in. It is their responsibility to keep the retirement in the black. It is not the tax payers responsibility. It is the UAW leadership's responsibility. They are a gigantic failure.
It's not like we've seen automobile, clothing, food, healthcare, cost become cheaper in the "free-market"
Are you kidding me. You said your brother just bought a new car for 35% less than MSRP. Cloths are cheaper in the free market. Food has leveled out since fuel went back down. Health care is out of control for sure.
The bottom line is if people like the UAW, workers make less it will have a domino effect and you can kiss a lot of small business good bye
You need to get out and look around. You tried selling GM cars to a public that was not buying. There are a lot of businesses already going belly up. While UAW workers are still making more than the average. So why should the money go to GM and not these smaller companies that are already hurt. You think that will make the cars affordable. My friend that got laid off at a big Ford agency along with 7 other technicians, told me they only sold 3 cars in October. A year ago they sold 300 a month. Looks to me like the Big 3 have already failed. What would throwing good money at them do? The Big 3 and their UAW cronies need to accept the fact that they are a gigantic FAILURE. They are NO longer a viable business model. Billions of tax dollars will not fix the problem. Only prolong the end. For those that have already lost jobs due to Big 3 FAILURES, are just as important as the prima donna UAW workers. Gettlefinger and his high and mighty attitude makes me want to puke.
There are and will be many others. Many, many people who thought they nice, permanent pork jobs for cities, counties, states, and other political entities will find themselves terminated, some gently, some not so gently. People will begin to realize they could be next. They will need all their money to slide through.
The only ones not worried about cuts will be the welfare/entitlement crowd whose votes will be bought again in every election with promises of mo' money, mo' money, less responsibility. But I see that terminating at 2010 or at worst 2012 if the economy crash is still hurting.
The UAW will probably still have Gettlefinger complaining about their overpaid jobs leaving as they have sucked the whale dry.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think the number is nine out of ten Chapter 11's get converted to a liquidation. About the only way for it to work is for GM would be for them to negotiate financing ahead of time and maybe even work out agreements with the union, suppliers and dealers before filing and then present their reorganization plan as a fait accompli.
Even then the plan is subject to court approval and supervision and anyone not in on the deal (like those owed money who don't have any security for payment) will object and try to change things around.
Getting out of bankruptcy would take GM at least a year - look at United Airlines; they took four years to leave Chapter 11. That's a lot of uncertainty for car buyers.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The UAW has lost over half of its members since he has become President. Gettlefinger is hoping his political support will solve the problems. It does not address the facts. No one is buying Big 3 cars. And the truck market is in the toilet.
The union’s membership at General Motors, Ford Motor Company and Chrysler has been nearly halved to 139,000 workers in the past three years, and it continues to shrink with every new plant closing.
Mr. Gettelfinger, who is 64, wields new political clout in the debate this week in Congress over how to help Detroit survive the worst vehicle market in 15 years.
The U.A.W. was instrumental in the pivotal victories in Michigan and Ohio by Barack Obama in the presidential election, and two union loyalists in Michigan, Gov. Jennifer M. Granholm and former Representative David E. Bonior, are members of Mr. Obama’s economic advisory team.
For all its political heft, however, Detroit’s labor costs and union contracts will more than likely come under attack in House and Senate hearings.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/17/business/economy/17uaw.html?ref=business
It is not just you and I that think the UAW members and retirees are over compensated. It is the ENTIRE country feels they are.
The Auto companies executives AND the workers took max money while they could.
Now they should all be given minimum wage and use all that money saved + Government loan to restructure and get back to business. In this situation, I wonder if they are still foolish enough to arm wrestle with their collective bargaining power. If they (the union) as well as the executives have ANY self respect and ownership left, they should respect this offer (of mine), and prove that they are worth something and let them build the tower of respect again, brick by brick.
What is the worst that can happen if they do not?
The really good executives and workers will find jobs at the competition which will be expanding their manufacturing to fill in the void left by the demise of these sluggish giants.